Secret of Evermore (SNES)

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-15 01:18:25 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-15 10:08:02 am

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-14 11:23:15 am

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-13 04:09:16 am

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-12 03:45:51 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-11-12 03:45:06 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-10-23 06:41:06 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-10-23 06:36:54 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-10-23 06:35:53 pm

2014-10-23 06:35:24 pm

Timed out the Dogswitches in Pyramids. You gain a bit over 4 seconds with a frame perfect character switch when hitting the first switch (top left). The second (bottom left) is 3 seconds. Opening and closing the menu takes about 1 second. So depending on how many times you need to menu buffer a frame, you could gain a maximum 3 and 2 seconds respectively by using this, although with reaction time maybe another second less. Personally, I find hitting the second switch trickier and not worth trying.

I'm pretty good at menu buffering at this point, more than half my tries I gain 1-3 seconds, otherwise breaking even or maybe losing a second or two. The upside is that it is not very punishing. You can try to just cut it really close on first menu, if you cut it too close then you just hit the switch and progress like normal with no time loss.

There is not a very good visual cue for this though, I just learned the necessary distance of the space between the bottom blue brackets and the switch.

Also if you're trying this, you should switch from the boy a little before the gate since you will have control while the gate is opening and don't want to just stand around. I also like to start with the dog at the beginning of screen on the other side of the water gap so you can use a full sprint to get to the switch.

edit: In case anyone struggles with the Saturn Skip, it can also be menu-buffered. In the time it takes to menu twice (about 2 seconds) you can have a guaranteed success first try. Just menu buffer a B button input with the dog, followed by a menu buffered character switch (i.e. Dog on door trigger, Y for menu, Press Y to exit menu and then pressing and holding B first and then Y before menu closes, then hold Select and press Y to switch characters http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/5502220 )

Timed out the Dogswitches in Pyramids. You gain a bit over 4 seconds with a frame perfect character switch when hitting the first switch (top left). The second (bottom left) is 3 seconds. Opening and closing the menu takes about 1 second. So depending on how many times you need to menu buffer a frame, you could gain a maximum 3 and 2 seconds respectively by using this, although with reaction time maybe another second less. Personally, I find hitting the second switch trickier and not worth trying.

I'm pretty good at menu buffering at this point, more than half my tries I gain 1-3 seconds, otherwise breaking even or maybe losing a second or two. The upside is that it is not very punishing. You can try to just cut it really close on first menu, if you cut it too close then you just hit the switch and progress like normal with no time loss.

There is not a very good visual cue for this though, I just learned the necessary distance of the space between the bottom blue brackets and the switch.

Also if you're trying this, you should switch from the boy a little before the gate since you will have control while the gate is opening and don't want to just stand around. I also like to start with the dog at the beginning of screen on the other side of the water gap so you can use a full sprint to get to the switch.

edit: In case anyone struggles with the Saturn Skip, it can also be menu-buffered. In the time it takes to menu twice (about 2 seconds) you can have a guaranteed success first try. Just menu buffer a B button input with the dog, followed by a menu buffered character switch (i.e. Dog on door trigger, Y for menu, Press Y to exit menu and then pressing and holding B first and then Y before menu closes, then hold Select and press Y to switch characters http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/5502220 )

CrAwEk

2014-11-18 03:40:11 am

Really good setup for saturn skip Smiley

Nice job GreenAmbler

CrAwEk

2014-12-30 09:12:44 am

New route for act1. 14HB with BBM Skip
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/5778552

CrAwEk

Edit history:

CrAwEk: 2015-01-21 02:43:49 am

CrAwEk: 2015-01-21 02:43:28 am

CrAwEk: 2015-01-21 02:39:34 am

2015-01-21 02:39:22 am

Act 1 10:22
14HB BBM, thraxx and intro fire eyes skip
new strat vs magmar 36HB with 8 call beats.
This strat save time cause we can kill magmar before hit wave. But it work with 14HB route cause we need hight lvl for hb
It's really important to use menu cancel with 8hb+ 8 call beads cause without this, the game crash.
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/5922975

MetaSigma

2015-01-21 04:05:23 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Crawek...you did 32HB and 8 Call Beads. Not 36 HB, also the fact you didn't crash your game because you cast on that Mosquito in the prior room is actually a bit surprising. Also...Doing that trick on emulator I do believe is SLIGHTLY different than on Console. I do think it's a 100% crash even WITHOUT him casting Heat wave (I could be wrong)

bangagong

2015-01-21 10:12:41 pm

I decided to try the 32HB magmar strat on my console to see if it would crash or not. Here's what I found out about X8 casting on the mosquito in the first room. The game doesn't crash as long as you wait for the HB to hit the mosquito (the same way as if you were menu cancelling) but it WILL crash if you leave the screen before the HB actually hits the target. I did about 15 runs from the save in the volcano sewers and had very consistent results. I still got hit with heat wave every time but it was always after magmar was dead and both characters already recovered full hp so that's not an issue. Also never had a problem with the 32HB not doing enough damage to kill him, it worked every time for me.

On another note, hi again everyone! It's been a few years since I was last active on here, but I'm getting back into running this game and I'll probably start streaming soon. I guess I have a few new tricks to learn now, and old ones to relearn (It's been so long I even forgot where to desert skip)

I decided to try the 32HB magmar strat on my console to see if it would crash or not.  Here's what I found out about X8 casting on the mosquito in the first room.  The game doesn't crash as long as you wait for the HB to hit the mosquito (the same way as if you were menu cancelling) but it WILL crash if you leave the screen before the HB actually hits the target.  I did about 15 runs from the save in the volcano sewers and had very consistent results.  I still got hit with heat wave every time but it was always after magmar was dead and both characters already recovered full hp so that's not an issue.  Also never had a problem with the 32HB not doing enough damage to kill him, it worked every time for me.

On another note, hi again everyone!  It's been a few years since I was last active on here, but I'm getting back into running this game and I'll probably start streaming soon.  I guess I have a few new tricks to learn now, and old ones to relearn (It's been so long I even forgot where to desert skip)

CrAwEk

Edit history:

CrAwEk: 2015-01-22 11:20:14 am

CrAwEk: 2015-01-22 09:27:04 am

CrAwEk: 2015-01-22 09:22:32 am

2015-01-22 09:04:17 am

Sorry for say 36HB. It 32HB with 8 call beads. On bsnes, game crash 100% when i cast 8HB with 8 call beads if I dont use menu cancel after that. That the reason I use this menu cancel after cast 8HB+ 8 call beads. It's really important to cast 8 hb on mosqito for lvl boy, dog and HB. I hope this strat work on console.
What is your twitch bangagong?

MetaSigma

2015-01-22 03:58:41 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Yeah I think when we used to to do it the old way (Pre-menu Cancelling) It would crash. I think the Menu-cancelling is clearing out the sprite-limit in time thus allowing it to go through.

TheAngryPanda

2015-01-23 06:24:59 pm

Speed > Safety

In case anyone has had any doubts/wonders about the whole swapping to sword for Carltron fight, here's some TAS testing data from the fight:

Spear and Sword both take the same amount of frames to attack
Spear moves you in the direction it's facing, Sword does not
Menu'ing to swap to the Sword COSTS YOU 77 frames at minimum, more if you go to an actual sword instead of the bone weapon. This translates roughly to 80-90 frames RTA, because reasons.

So, what this means, in terms of RTA, is that you're at the very minimum losing 1.5s by switching to any sword.

exceptions:
- Your menu is for whatever reason already on the weapons menu, which means you lost time elsewhere anyways.
- Being slow on your directional changes with the spear could cause frame loss, which would make the sword better due to standing still, but not enough to make up for 1.5s (you'd have to miss 6-7 times with the spear)
- There really aren't any exceptions.

TAS is coming along nicely. I'll update the guide with new strats and stuff when I remember to or when someone highlights a tutorial for it for me to go off of. Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff, because reasons.

<3

In case anyone has had any doubts/wonders about the whole swapping to sword for Carltron fight, here's some TAS testing data from the fight:

Spear and Sword both take the same amount of frames to attack
Spear moves you in the direction it's facing, Sword does not
Menu'ing to swap to the Sword COSTS YOU 77 frames at minimum, more if you go to an actual sword instead of the bone weapon. This translates roughly to 80-90 frames RTA, because reasons.

So, what this means, in terms of RTA, is that you're at the very minimum losing 1.5s by switching to any sword.

exceptions:
- Your menu is for whatever reason already on the weapons menu, which means you lost time elsewhere anyways.
- Being slow on your directional changes with the spear could cause frame loss, which would make the sword better due to standing still, but not enough to make up for 1.5s (you'd have to miss 6-7 times with the spear)
- There really aren't any exceptions.

TAS is coming along nicely. I'll update the guide with new strats and stuff when I remember to or when someone highlights a tutorial for it for me to go off of. Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff, because reasons.

<3

Lemon

Edit history:

Lemon: 2015-01-24 08:55:11 am

Lemon: 2015-01-24 08:55:09 am

2015-01-24 08:54:23 am

Because crawek was asking me to do it heres a 8HB 8CB cast on Magmar on console without crashing.

http://www51.zippyshare.com/v/fEjJvrDf/file.html

Keep in mind that the game did not crash a single time even after my 5th kill.

PS: This game sucks

DLDarklink

2015-02-22 05:35:33 am

...

Vultuz just showed on stream that you actually can recover from messing up the Diamond Eyes skip Cheesy

He picked up 2 gauges and the weel from Thraxx 2.0
Ofcourse you lose a lot of time, but you can still finish in case you are doing a marathon run (like Vultuz just did)

thumbsup

XETH

Edit history:

XETH: 2015-04-06 01:44:45 pm

XETH: 2015-04-06 01:27:32 pm

XETH: 2015-04-06 01:27:17 pm

2015-04-06 01:26:37 pm

Today I prooved if the Magic Gourd is a key enabler for the 99+ call bead trick.

Sadly, it's not.

I got the MG back in Antiqua, made it through Gothica and with the windwalker back to nobila, made a savestate and got 99 Callbeads
Then I reloaded the savestate and i got one single call bead.
After some trying to find out what the heck is going on i saved ingame and reset the game. Then I tried it again and got 99 Call beads.

Once you got a single call Bead at this place, it never will Change again. Once you got many Call beads as the trick works, you always get call beads.

This behavior was interesting, so i reloaded my last savestate from Antiqua and sold my MG in nobilia and played it again until just before I can get the 99 call beads. Savestate made. There is no MG since the end of Antiqua.

First Try: 1 Call bead.

Savestate reloaded, saved ingame and reset game. Next Try: 99 Call beads.

For me, it's clear, that MG has nothing to do with it.
Ingame reloading after not getting the trick working worked everytime i tried it.

There is another Thing that does not work. I read some days ago, for getting Super Heal, you choose the smaller number if the person is young, and choose the greater number if the person is old.

That's also not true.

This rule does not match. It's random. The numbers are even random direct after reloading a savestate.

Any Ideas about that?

Today I prooved if the Magic Gourd is a key enabler for the 99+ call bead trick.

Sadly, it's not.

I got the MG back in Antiqua, made it through Gothica and with the windwalker back to nobila, made a savestate and got 99 Callbeads
Then I reloaded the savestate and i got one single call bead.
After some trying to find out what the heck is going on i saved ingame and reset the game. Then  I tried it again and got 99 Call beads.

Once you got a single call Bead at this place, it never will Change again. Once you got many Call beads as the trick works, you always get call beads.

This behavior was interesting, so i reloaded my last savestate from Antiqua and sold my MG in nobilia and played it again until just before I can get the 99 call beads. Savestate made. There is no MG since the end of Antiqua.

First Try: 1 Call bead.

Savestate reloaded, saved ingame and reset game. Next Try: 99 Call beads.

For me, it's clear, that MG has nothing to do with it.
Ingame reloading after not getting the trick working worked everytime i tried it.

There is another Thing that does not work. I read some days ago, for getting Super Heal, you choose the smaller number if the person is young, and choose the greater number if the person is old.

That's also not true.

This rule does not match. It's random. The numbers are even random direct after reloading a savestate.

Any Ideas about that?

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-06 07:39:42 pm

Speed > Safety

We never get the MG or go for 99 Call Beads in runs now, even in 100% there's little advantage to doing so. Thanks for the testing though. Smiley

As for the Super Heal, it's random, yup. There's no magical indicator that anyone has found so far for a 100% chance at the right option. The 100% route is designed so you have multiple chances at this spell purely because of that. And I haven't gotten around to TAS'ing 100% yet to really dig into it any further.

So that's more or less where we're at on those things currently. If you want to look at some other fun nonsense, check the SoE guide I made. It's got FAQ's, routes, etc... in it: http://goo.gl/1BK8jV

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2015-04-07 09:19:21 am

2015-04-07 09:16:37 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

There are 2 triggers for the infinite call bead glitch.

#1: You Save the game on its normal way via the inn at the market, reset the console and load the save.

#2: You play as the dog, move to the place where the water ingredient is on that screen (only works if u haven't picked it up alrdy as the boy), then you pretend to pick it up as the dog (Stand in front of it and Press the Execute Button), which loads a value that makes the call beads infinite there.

Greetings

XETH

Edit history:

XETH: 2015-04-11 01:59:42 am

XETH: 2015-04-11 01:59:10 am

XETH: 2015-04-08 02:08:21 pm

XETH: 2015-04-08 02:07:36 pm

XETH: 2015-04-08 01:50:42 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:10:18 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:09:34 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:08:44 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:07:17 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:03:51 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 03:02:15 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 02:58:56 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 02:58:20 pm

XETH: 2015-04-07 02:57:53 pm

2015-04-07 02:56:58 pm

@TheAngryPanda. I read your FAQ. There are 4 chances to get super heal without reset...

For your 100% TAS...
I wonder, why you dont get the MG and the Chocobo Egg at nobilia market within the timer? It's generally possible to get all charms in 14 minutes (except the Silver sheath, as it's changed for Amor ultra) You get even less, because of trading the gloves of ra.
You buy the Chocobo egg at ivor Towers market and get the MG in crustacia from the mad Monk for much money. Shouldn't it save more time to get Chocobo egg and MG at nobilia market within the timer, than later?

What about these (despite it's probably not speedrun relevant):

- In act1 village, the woman in the hut next to the inn provides sometimes a petal, after act3 a honey. what does it trigger whether you will get it or not, or get it again?
- If I leave the market in act2 to dog statue area or come from landing area to dog statue area, sometimes, after entering the Screen, the guy and dog move southern and a Sound of a closing door can be heared. why?
- After entering the first volcano sewers room, there is a raptor escaping. After you open the gourd in the same room, a long delay happens before screen message for picked up item occurs. I always guessed, that the gourd's content is triggered of something I don't know. Any Knowledge about this? Immediately killing the raptor seems not to have any effect.
- Why is the dog statue at act1 village landing place, after getting the windwalker? (Why not anythere else?)
- The philosopher sometimes shows the message "there is nothing more to say", without showing the message "(...) button typing overlord" (with the option to choose his destiny) before. I guess, it's the speed of pressing B? or is it random? Any knowledge about this?
- What Triggers the Philosopher to "Philosoph" again after saying "There is nothing more to say"?

@TheAngryPanda. I read your FAQ. There are 4 chances to get super heal without reset...

For your 100% TAS...
I wonder, why you dont get the MG and the Chocobo Egg at nobilia market within the timer? It's generally possible to get all charms in 14 minutes (except the Silver sheath, as it's changed for Amor ultra) You get even less, because of trading the gloves of ra. 
You buy the Chocobo egg at ivor Towers market and get the MG in crustacia from the mad Monk for much money. Shouldn't it save more time to get Chocobo egg and MG at nobilia market within the timer, than later?

What about these (despite it's probably not speedrun relevant):

- In act1 village, the woman in the hut next to the inn provides sometimes a petal, after act3 a honey. what does it trigger whether you will get it or not, or get it again?
- If I leave the market in act2 to dog statue area or come from landing area to dog statue area, sometimes, after entering the Screen, the guy and dog move southern and a Sound of a closing door can be heared. why?
- After entering the first volcano sewers room, there is a raptor escaping. After you open the gourd in the same room, a long delay happens before screen message for picked up item occurs. I always guessed, that the gourd's content is triggered of  something I don't know. Any Knowledge about this? Immediately killing the raptor seems not to have any effect.
- Why is the dog statue at act1 village landing place, after getting the windwalker? (Why not anythere else?)
- The philosopher sometimes shows the message "there is nothing more to say", without showing the message "(...) button typing overlord" (with the option to choose his destiny) before. I guess, it's the speed of pressing B? or is it random? Any knowledge about this?
- What Triggers the Philosopher to "Philosoph" again after saying "There is nothing more to say"?

GreenAmbler

2015-04-11 03:49:31 am

-The door/downward movement is because you are leaving the inn and then going to the next screen before the intended actions have time to execute. There's about half a second after you leave the market inn where you can control the characters before it performs this action, similar to banquet skip. You can further delay the action with use of petals and such, but from my testing there is no way to utilize this in any way.
-If I had to guess the delay after the gourd pickup was just some sloppy coding or something, probably nothing.
-The dog statue just happens to land there after it explodes in act 2. Just something interesting the makers of the game decided on.

XETH

2015-04-12 05:16:05 am

"-The door/downward movement is because you are leaving the inn and then going to the next screen before the intended actions have time to execute."

This also happens (not always) after you came from windwalker landing place. Not only when leaving the INN

Vultuz

2015-04-12 03:32:34 pm

I Guess the Market can be done a bit different, but for now its the fastest route to get everything.
If you have some bad luck at the Atlas glitch before, your timing is really tight getting everything on the market in time so you cant get a chocobo egg there (which is also totally random if you some pottery).

The other Stuff:
- Dont know about the Woman thing, i guess its just progressing with the Game, there is something similar in Act1 with Strong Heart giving you a collar for the Dog depending on your progress.
-That closing Door thing is just a bug/glitch with a wrong trigger (It just trigger "open a door" from time to time)
-No Idea about the Raptor thing, i guess the Raptor is suposed to be Magmar maybe that get transformed before the Bossfight (Just wild Theory)
-Dog Statue = Developers Idea
-The philosph is just randomly saying stuff, sometimes i guess after a few minutes he "reset"

XETH

2015-04-13 12:30:48 am

Hi, thx for your answers.

Yes the Cochobo Egg pickup is (probbably) random, but, mostly I got it after 3-10 trades (means 9-30 Jewels) and you will receive 10 (or 50 after getting it) randomly. One minute extra effort could/should be enough to get the Egg.

The Thing with the woman is, that it's not 1:1 comparable to strong heart. SH provides always a collar, if you dont have the one, he will provide (respecting the game progress)
The woman seems to be random. If you have 0, 1 or more items, it doesn't seem to care.

Sometimes the philosopher tells some numbers 0100010, 0100100, 0100001 i guess, but mostly not. These numbers mean (probably) nothing, but, if they appear, it's likely that he will soon say, "there is nothing more to say". maybe an indicator for pressing the buttons more slowly, not resulting to end the conversation.

There is so much we still don't understand. This game is very complex in it's logic.

Thx for replying.

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-13 10:00:59 am

Speed > Safety

There is absolutely no point to getting the Chocobo Egg in Any%, ever. Even as a silly side thing to do in a marathon, it's pointless.

Regarding 100%, it's mentioned/known to try and get it amongst the runners, the guide is designed to encompass the RNG element and provide a way to almost always get the item in question. This is why the route doesn't use any ingredient pickup glitches, because those are reliant upon anywhere between a 1/128 and 1/16 chance as well as reliant upon enemy placement/mechanics/etc...

A lot of stuff remains unknown simply because nobody sees it as being worth looking into due to various reasons. It would be nice to disassemble the entire game structure and figure out how all the little bits and pieces function together in whatever chaotic harmony it seems to accomplish, however, there's not a lot of people involved with this game that know how to do that or have the time to do so.

Things that are actually important to improving any%:
- finding a way to force out of bounds anywhere
- finding a way to remove enemy dodging/missing without sacrificing our ability to hit them (ie; can't underflow with Speed)
- combing through the route to find more optimized situations (this is currently in progress)
- more reliable setups for various tricks

Things that are actually useful in 100%:
- combing through the route (which nobody runs at all) to improve things based on feedback from runners and/or the TAS progress (which hasn't started yet)
- finding an identifier in real-time for the Super Heal ability so the route can be improved/optimized
- figuring out a way to reduce the amount of stuff to do in the market timer session of the game (currently you don't have much time to spare, in fact, most people go over the time limit and finish it off post-Vigor)
- generally speaking, anything that improves Any% will improve 100% in the process, so just include all of those above as well

Also, a small note about the FAQ. If you look closely, the 100% TAS W.I.P. and the Any% TAS W.I.P. tabs are copies of their real-time counterparts. This is because they haven't been worked on, so any information within them outside of the obvious changes is entirely pointless until I remove that "W.I.P." part. If you want to see what the TAS looks like you can check https://www.youtube.com/user/AngryPandaStuff/videos for the progress on that. You'll notice there's no 100%, it hasn't been routed/optimized for TAS'ing, as I've been searching for someone that's very interested in doing that with me. There's a high chance that if I finish the Any% TAS without finding someone, it will likely not happen at all, as I don't have the time/patience to deal with this game's nonsense all alone again. :/

Anywho, sorry if that's not exactly the answer you're looking for.

There is absolutely no point to getting the Chocobo Egg in Any%, ever. Even as a silly side thing to do in a marathon, it's pointless.

Regarding 100%, it's mentioned/known to try and get it amongst the runners, the guide is designed to encompass the RNG element and provide a way to almost always get the item in question. This is why the route doesn't use any ingredient pickup glitches, because those are reliant upon anywhere between a 1/128 and 1/16 chance as well as reliant upon enemy placement/mechanics/etc...

A lot of stuff remains unknown simply because nobody sees it as being worth looking into due to various reasons. It would be nice to disassemble the entire game structure and figure out how all the little bits and pieces function together in whatever chaotic harmony it seems to accomplish, however, there's not a lot of people involved with this game that know how to do that or have the time to do so.

Things that are actually important to improving any%:
- finding a way to force out of bounds anywhere
- finding a way to remove enemy dodging/missing without sacrificing our ability to hit them (ie; can't underflow with Speed)
- combing through the route to find more optimized situations (this is currently in progress)
- more reliable setups for various tricks

Things that are actually useful in 100%:
- combing through the route (which nobody runs at all) to improve things based on feedback from runners and/or the TAS progress (which hasn't started yet)
- finding an identifier in real-time for the Super Heal ability so the route can be improved/optimized
- figuring out a way to reduce the amount of stuff to do in the market timer session of the game (currently you don't have much time to spare, in fact, most people go over the time limit and finish it off post-Vigor)
- generally speaking, anything that improves Any% will improve 100% in the process, so just include all of those above as well

Also, a small note about the FAQ. If you look closely, the 100% TAS W.I.P. and the Any% TAS W.I.P. tabs are copies of their real-time counterparts. This is because they haven't been worked on, so any information within them outside of the obvious changes is entirely pointless until I remove that "W.I.P." part. If you want to see what the TAS looks like you can check [url]https://www.youtube.com/user/AngryPandaStuff/videos[/url] for the progress on that. You'll notice there's no 100%, it hasn't been routed/optimized for TAS'ing, as I've been searching for someone that's very interested in doing that with me. There's a high chance that if I finish the Any% TAS without finding someone, it will likely not happen at all, as I don't have the time/patience to deal with this game's nonsense all alone again. :/

Anywho, sorry if that's not exactly the answer you're looking for.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 06:10:33 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 05:05:16 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 05:00:08 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 04:58:43 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 04:57:55 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 04:56:23 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 04:49:10 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-13 04:29:37 pm

2015-04-13 04:26:48 pm

Well I'm not sure how exactly you caused the Door Close actions from leaving the WW screen. I am confident it is not a random phenomenon.

You can intentionally replicate it by leaving the inn, immediately entering the Statue screen, holding/interrupting the dog with items/spells during his forced downward movement, and entering the WW screen as the boy before the dog finishes walking downwards. You essentially store the Door Close actions, which automatically activate on only the Market or Statue screens (the doors in act 3 don't work, they work differently. that or the stored action is deleted after changing eras, haven't tested that). If you have it stored and enter the Statue screen during one of the two cutscenes (sacred dog and Aegis), the actions will trigger once you inevitably enter the Market after the respective boss fight. You must have done some weird combination of things to have it stored before entering Statue area via WW screen, or perhaps there's another door I'm unaware of which operates the same.

Chocobo Egg seems quite random from my experience, pretty unreliable for a run, but saves potentially like 1.5 minutes IIRC. So it's definitely worth trying if you have extra time, if you don't get it before Vigor you can still try after and possibly still save time if it takes <1.5 min. (I think the average time it took me was about 2-3 min, though I've get times between 1-6 min

Haven't messed with the philosopher too much. If you're asking about whether he will happen to just stop talking without prompting the Change Forms option, which I haven't really seen since my casual playthroughs so maybe it does have to do with slower dialogue progression. It does seem that based on his dialogue he either starts progressing towards either the Change Forms option or simply the "Nothing to say" option. And yeah, not sure at which point he becomes "talkable" again, whether it's based on time or game progression.

One possibly interesting thing I found recently was that there are a number of NPCs that you can use the same way we use the guard in FE village for Fire Eyes Skip (i.e. you can menu buffer an A input and switch the next frame, allowing you to move around and trigger/store multiple things with the second character while a dialogue box is still up). Without the proper triggers, this won't be helpful, but I haven't gone through and tested so I can't be sure. Could potentially lead to more OoB's opportunities. I'll look into it.

That being said, I'm not sure how many OoBs opportunities would actually be useful. The biggest saver at this point would be a Market Skip, which would require somehow controlling the dog to jump the river. Even if you control the dog and move onto that screen, the game just softlocks. The only way I can imagine us skipping the market would be taking advantage of the rooms in Act 1 which connect to the Drain Guy cave in Act 2. The following are connected:

Jaguar Ring cave > Raptor Fight/Item Shop caves near Swamp (same room) > Hardball Cave > Inn near Volcano entrance > Drain cave

There could be more connected, I use the walk thru walls cheat as well as AFAIG's camera scrolling cheat, although that only moves the camera right so I can't see what I'm doing if I go in any other direction (if someone could figure out a code for scrolling up/down, or otherwise can show how all the individual maps connect, that would be helpful Smiley

) You can "wrong entrance" most of these caves so that the characters move downwards upon entering, but then they are just stuck OoB. We would need something like the guard in FE village or the Locked Doors in act 3 to push a character far enough OoB to where it would be helpful, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that in those caves.

Well I'm not sure how exactly you caused the Door Close actions from leaving the WW screen. I am confident it is not a random phenomenon.

You can intentionally replicate it by leaving the inn, immediately entering the Statue screen, holding/interrupting the dog with items/spells during his forced downward movement, and entering the WW screen as the boy before the dog finishes walking downwards. You essentially store the Door Close actions, which automatically activate on only the Market or Statue screens (the doors in act 3 don't work, they work differently. that or the stored action is deleted after changing eras, haven't tested that). If you have it stored and enter the Statue screen during one of the two cutscenes (sacred dog and Aegis), the actions will trigger once you inevitably enter the Market after the respective boss fight. You must have done some weird combination of things to have it stored before entering Statue area via WW screen, or perhaps there's another door I'm unaware of which operates the same.

Chocobo Egg seems quite random from my experience, pretty unreliable for a run, but saves potentially like 1.5 minutes IIRC. So it's definitely worth trying if you have extra time, if you don't get it before Vigor you can still try after and possibly still save time if it takes <1.5 min. (I think the average time it took me was about 2-3 min, though I've get times between 1-6 min

Haven't messed with the philosopher too much. If you're asking about whether he will happen to just stop talking without prompting the Change Forms option, which I haven't really seen since my casual playthroughs so maybe it does have to do with slower dialogue progression. It does seem that based on his dialogue he either starts progressing towards either the Change Forms option or simply the "Nothing to say" option. And yeah, not sure at which point he becomes "talkable" again, whether it's based on time or game progression.

One possibly interesting thing I found recently was that there are a number of NPCs that you can use the same way we use the guard in FE village for Fire Eyes Skip (i.e. you can menu buffer an A input and switch the next frame, allowing you to move around and trigger/store multiple things with the second character while a dialogue box is still up). Without the proper triggers, this won't be helpful, but I haven't gone through and tested so I can't be sure. Could potentially lead to more OoB's opportunities. I'll look into it.

That being said, I'm not sure how many OoBs opportunities would actually be useful. The biggest saver at this point would be a Market Skip, which would require somehow controlling the dog to jump the river. Even if you control the dog and move onto that screen, the game just softlocks. The only way I can imagine us skipping the market would be taking advantage of the rooms in Act 1 which connect to the Drain Guy cave in Act 2. The following are connected:

Jaguar Ring cave > Raptor Fight/Item Shop caves near Swamp (same room) > Hardball Cave > Inn near Volcano entrance > Drain cave

There could be more connected, I use the walk thru walls cheat as well as AFAIG's camera scrolling cheat, although that only moves the camera right so I can't see what I'm doing if I go in any other direction (if someone could figure out a code for scrolling up/down, or otherwise can show how all the individual maps connect, that would be helpful :) ) You can "wrong entrance" most of these caves so that the characters move downwards upon entering, but then they are just stuck OoB. We would need something like the guard in FE village or the Locked Doors in act 3 to push a character far enough OoB to where it would be helpful, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that in those caves.

AsFarAsIGet

2015-04-14 09:10:25 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Hey GreenAmbler,

of which NPC's are you talking? Tried to redo the fire eyes village input storage, but i wasn't able to move through solid terrain. Did it ever work at FE village or was it only on the act3 doors?

Greetings

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-14 12:03:32 pm

Speed > Safety

You can't walk through solid objects with that text storage thing.

You can walk past triggers such as some NPC interactions, map transitions, and a handful of other less common things.

The painful reality is that most areas (there are exceptions) have collision up towards and around the end of the map which prevent us from OoB'ing entirely like in Northern Forest's OoB. The only maps we've found that were able to be connected to various other places were the caves connecting Act 1 and Act 2's Drain Cave. I know initiating the cutscene for the pig race and swapping then re-initiating it, leaving the map, or any sort of menu'ing had no promising result. Not really sure where else we could use this at to save some serious time in RTA, but hopefully someone finds something.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2015-04-14 03:30:19 pm

2015-04-14 03:14:00 pm

With the FE Village guard's dialogue box up, you can repeatedly walk over his trigger. Then once you progress through the dialogue, it will force you left (even through solid terrain) for every time you stepped on the trigger. It doesn't always immediately happen, and will cause the boy to move in really weird patterns if he has to walk on solid terrain, but can essentially put you as far left OoB as you'd like, and potentially a little in other directions if the boy happens to move that way (he moves similar to when I did early Acid Rain Guy). Screen transitions seem to cancel all of these stored movements, so unless the Village's map connects to anything (which I know it doesn't horizontally), the only use is skipping the first part of FE cutscene (also can produce some humorous graphical glitches, like double NPCs for first part of that cutscene)

I didn't check every NPC, but it seems like the only other ones who can do this are in Nobilia, namely the vendors and the guards and a couple other people (Using the walk thru walls and camera scrolling cheats, all the npcs that are visible on the "wrap-around" map are the ones that can be used to move with a dialogue box open). I don't see how this would ever be useful (again, can make some funny graphical glitches), but still haven't messed around too much.

With the FE Village guard's dialogue box up, you can repeatedly walk over his trigger. Then once you progress through the dialogue, it will force you left (even through solid terrain) for every time you stepped on the trigger. It doesn't always immediately happen, and will cause the boy to move in really weird patterns if he has to walk on solid terrain, but can essentially put you as far left OoB as you'd like, and potentially a little in other directions if the boy happens to move that way (he moves similar to when I did early Acid Rain Guy). Screen transitions seem to cancel all of these stored movements, so unless the Village's map connects to anything (which I know it doesn't horizontally), the only use is skipping the first part of FE cutscene (also can produce some humorous graphical glitches, like double NPCs for first part of that cutscene)

I didn't check every NPC, but it seems like the only other ones who can do this are in Nobilia, namely the vendors and the guards and a couple other people (Using the walk thru walls and camera scrolling cheats, all the npcs that are visible on the "wrap-around" map are the ones that can be used to move with a dialogue box open). I don't see how this would ever be useful (again, can make some funny graphical glitches), but still haven't messed around too much.

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-14 03:38:28 pm

Speed > Safety

oh so it's just storing the forced movement like it would with a multiple exit transition (which is what the Thraxx intro skip is). That's interesting, but yeah, I don't think anything is connected to the village that would be beneficial. Sad

If there's an NPC that can achieve this elsewhere (like the gate in the prison that forced you back) on a map that actually matters, we could do some cool stuff. I think it's staying as a funny graphical thing though for the time being. I can't think of any other places you're forced to move AND have control prior other than what we've previously discussed.