Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2014-05-06 12:34:06 am

I think no need to wait for the bar to 100% load because the menu sound prevents the sound bar crash game. If you watch lovablelamchop pb or skarsnikus test, they dont wait 100% bar!

DLDarklink

2014-05-06 02:31:22 am

...

i think what GA said is the main problem, when all the sounds stack it'll drop upon entering. that would be the petal sound (?) the weird glitchy sound when you enter and the chirping 100% sound. So whatever we do, we must atleast prevent the chirping sound to stack with any other glitch sound at the beginning (?)

Opening the menu will prevent that, but if you want to be really sure you can just walk in while the energy bar isnt't refilling.

Why would we do that? Well, what IF you enter, the glitchy sound plays the chirp sound plays and opening the menu sound plays all at the same time? Tongue

it would be awesome if that would happen to anyone, just to see what happens Wink

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-05-08 01:11:27 pm

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-05-08 01:08:46 pm

2014-05-08 01:06:37 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

I personally think that its the prison cutscene which is skipped by banquette skip that causes all of the trouble...

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-05-09 03:14:05 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-05-09 02:42:41 pm

2014-05-09 02:38:59 pm

I already tried not skipping the banquet and then skipping verm, still got the glitchy dungeon sounds. IIRC the game play certain music when entering the dungeon the proper way the first time, but when you enter from the castle, it usually just keeps the castle music playing. So the game probably is trying to play two different songs at once, as well as the gate shutting sound

Skarsnik

2014-05-09 02:45:55 pm

hum I tried a real run with vermskip, crash even with casting wings. but doesn't pay attention at the energy bar before entering

GreenAmbler

2014-05-09 02:52:13 pm

Hmm did you record it? At what point did the audio cut out?

Skarsnik

2014-05-09 02:54:16 pm

http://www.twitch.tv/skarsnikus/b/526721652?t=1h36m

GreenAmbler

2014-05-09 03:27:48 pm

Interesting. Seems like the gate opening sound itself was the problem (although still on a raptor cell), in which case I have no idea how to prevent the softlock. I did notice that you kept seeming to get the same glitchy sound in your attempts (kinda like a whistle), is this the sound you always get? I usually get a few different sounding glitches when I try it. Maybe something else prior to your save is responsible, but I'm really at a loss here.

TheAngryPanda

2014-05-09 03:34:17 pm

Speed > Safety

If it comes down to being something that's determined way early on in the game, this will absolutely not make it into the TAS.

Personally I feel it's just a 50/50 and most people are either getting lucky/unlucky on their respective attempts, regardless of what they do. That being said, until something's actually proven, it's always going to be 50/50.

If the Wings cast isn't actually affecting the outcome and perhaps all the results were just "lucky," then there's no point in routing for them currently. I'm more interested in what GA's been saying about the opening and closing of certain cells, possibly during certain sections of the musical track, being the cause of the issue. Wings being cast during these events could also have a positive outcome, either by delaying the time you're opening the cell gates or by overriding the sound with something Wings has attached to it (if anything).

Just my thoughts on it. Like I said, it's always going to be 50/50 until we know for sure.

Skarsnik

2014-05-09 03:47:33 pm

I have a stupid theory if someone has lot of time to test.

1 - Take a save at tinker, go the jail make vermskip work (no crash)
2 - Reset and do a run

Why that? because it seems it nearly always work once he doesn't crash once and you do something (like casting wings)

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-05-09 05:09:17 pm

2014-05-09 05:08:40 pm

Speed > Safety

If that were to be how it worked, any run including this method would have to include the time used to set it up in my opinion. In which case, we're still better off with a 50/50 chance of it working because it'd be much faster.

As for the argument of "It's just like the save file to skip the intro," it really isn't, that is fair to everyone and the intro doesn't actually benefit players in any way. This is why it's not included in the time, it's the exact same for everyone. There's no possible way for us to say the above method would be the same for everyone, unfortunately.

I don't have time to test this personally, but I'd like to see the results if someone does have time to do so. If anything, it will be one more thing we've looked into.

Skarsnik

2014-05-12 04:30:30 pm

Sry if the reccord get deleted, I have an issue with twitch, I can't delete my reccord so he delete the recent one after a while Sad

DLDarklink

2014-05-13 02:57:23 am

...

I'd really like to see everyones attempt at the Verm skip on console so I can compare them.

Yesterday Meta's sound dropped at the same part as Skars' last attempt, but due to Twitch being Twitch I can't check that at this moment. The only thing I can think of right now is that both of you go to the Raptor as the first target, I believe I picked a different one while testing. Maybe the game needs some other glitchy sound first to prevent the Raptor cage sound issue Huh?

This is just me thinking out loud, I can't tell if that's the case but it really needs to be checked out at some point. I'm kinda busy with trying to learn a different game at this moment, but I hope I can do some testing tonight Wink

MetaSigma

2014-05-13 05:41:59 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

It dropped literally the moment I entered the dungeon. Even before I opened the menu to activate the wings. It had nothing to do with which target I went after first :/

Vultuz

2014-05-13 06:57:27 am

My theory is that it only softlock/Crash if you miss an enemy, whatever the reason is for that. I just got a savefile at the tinker, unfortunatly without atlas glitch. I made it everytime by killing the monsters with spells, not a single crash.
After some attempts: As soon as an enemy tries to attack you or they dodging = Gamecrash

Skarsnik

2014-05-13 08:12:20 am

I get lot of crash by only casting while testing the wings stuff.

TheAngryPanda

2014-05-13 08:31:55 am

Speed > Safety

Let's build a list for a few things...

Things that can make sound during transition:

1) Music
2) Energy meter refill sound
3) ?

Things that are player controlled that make sounds:

1) Opening gates (And when)
2) Attacking (This does not include missing an attack, that is not in your control)
3) Menu (And associated sounds from items/alchemy/etc...)
4) Energy meter refilling
5) Picking up an item (if any?)
6) Activating the door message (if any sound is made, we could control when and how often)
7) ?

Things that make this trick everyone's worst nightmare (non-player controlled):

1) Frame-dependant toggle for whether the crash is gonna happen or not
2) Missing/Dodging an attack
3) ?

I may have missed a few.

As for when the game drops sound, crashes, or whatever... You should take note of everything happening at that time or that happened up to that point, not just the immediate surrounding data.

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2014-05-13 03:46:42 pm

MetaSigma: 2014-05-13 03:45:16 pm

MetaSigma: 2014-05-13 03:44:53 pm

2014-05-13 03:41:34 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

I can pretty much attest that both times the sound just went completely blank. The first time I cast a petal (As was per the idea at the time). Walked into the room and *pop* it was gone right away.

The second time I waited for the bar to get to 100% and made sure only the music was playing. The moment I literally walked in the sound just went *pop* and it was gone even before I got into the menu which was literally the moment I had control of the boy. It is weird that in games that are loaded it's not an issue quite often, but in full on runs it seems to crash at a much higher rate. At least in all my tests that's what I've noticed.

As a notice it might have something to do with the musical note being played while you enter the room (As Panda has put above). One other thing I remembered Duckfist saying a while ago when we skip an entire scene of Fire Eyes dialogue is he mentioned this same issue happened to him (Where it softlocked) a few times. I never had that happen though and that was my thinking regarding this. If the game can do it with the Fire Eyes cut scene why is the dungeon different? With regards to what GA said about it trying to load two different sets of variables does that same logic apply to The Fire Eyes cutscene and if so what is so different between the two that causes that one to have no issues and this one too have issues? Might it be worth something to look at both things (The dungeon AND fire eyes?) to see if maybe there is a common thread between the two and why one goes one way and one goes the other? Just some food for thought is all.

Also there is a sound made when you enter the dungeon. A soft locking sound is heard I believe.

I can pretty much attest that both times the sound just went completely blank. The first time I cast a petal (As was per the idea at the time). Walked into the room and *pop* it was gone right away.

The second time I waited for the bar to get to 100% and made sure only the music was playing. The moment I literally walked in the sound just went *pop* and it was gone even before I got into the menu which was literally the moment I had control of the boy. It is weird that in games that are loaded it's not an issue quite often, but in full on runs it seems to crash at a much higher rate. At least in all my tests that's what I've noticed.

As a notice it might have something to do with the musical note being played while you enter the room (As Panda has put above). One other thing I remembered Duckfist saying a while ago when we skip an entire scene of Fire Eyes dialogue is he mentioned this same issue happened to him (Where it softlocked) a few times. I never had that happen though and that was my thinking regarding this. If the game can do it with the Fire Eyes cut scene why is the dungeon different? With regards to what GA said about it trying to load two different sets of variables does that same logic apply to The Fire Eyes cutscene and if so what is so different between the two that causes that one to have no issues and this one too have issues? Might it be worth something to look at both things (The dungeon AND fire eyes?) to see if maybe there is a common thread between the two and why one goes one way and one goes the other? Just some food for thought is all.

Also there is a sound made when you enter the dungeon. A soft locking sound is heard I believe.

DLDarklink

2014-05-13 05:08:41 pm

...

I tested it a little tonight (with a loaded file because everything went wrong while trying to do a run) and it never crashed while entering, which might verify that loading from a file isn't a trustworthy way to test. The other thing I noticed is that it only crashes at raptors, nothing else. That can be while the raptor attacks, or it gets hit. Fun fact: everytime you hit a raptor it plays a spell sound Tongue

I'll start practicing a bit more soon to get a full run up to that point Smiley

And yeah Meta, it might be worth to look into both things Smiley

It might clear things up Cheesy

TheAngryPanda

2014-05-13 06:25:33 pm

Speed > Safety

Quote from MetaSigma:

I can pretty much attest that both times the sound just went completely blank. The first time I cast a petal (As was per the idea at the time). Walked into the room and *pop* it was gone right away.

The second time I waited for the bar to get to 100% and made sure only the music was playing. The moment I literally walked in the sound just went *pop* and it was gone even before I got into the menu which was literally the moment I had control of the boy. It is weird that in games that are loaded it's not an issue quite often, but in full on runs it seems to crash at a much higher rate. At least in all my tests that's what I've noticed.

As a notice it might have something to do with the musical note being played while you enter the room (As Panda has put above). One other thing I remembered Duckfist saying a while ago when we skip an entire scene of Fire Eyes dialogue is he mentioned this same issue happened to him (Where it softlocked) a few times. I never had that happen though and that was my thinking regarding this. If the game can do it with the Fire Eyes cut scene why is the dungeon different?

They're different because the Fire Eyes scenes are more or less an OR case, while the dungeon is an AND case. What I mean by this is that Fire Eyes scenes are triggered by outside factors leading up to being drawn into the hut, thus the game is already aware of what it's supposed to be doing. Probably by a trigger during the Thraxx kill which alters the items in the huts to be call beads instead of dog biscuits. I'd assume that during this process, we're flagging the Call Bead conversation about the volcano to be enabled instead of the dog naming one. The dungeon, however, is triggered upon entry for all our needs. As it would seem, we have no way of enabling a flag to say we've dealt with one case or a way to prioritize one over the other. This apparently is something the game hates.

As a side note, another case of this is with Early Mad Monk in the TAS. You'll notice I leave the area and re-enter, that's because if I don't, the map is hung on one event due to how fast things are done in the TAS and once the bridge is triggered, the sound does what it does in the dungeon and softlocks. Something I want to stress here is that it's a SOFTLOCK in this scenario, we've had both... hard and soft lockups with the dungeon, which is a key difference from this specific issue I came across.

Quote from MetaSigma:

With regards to what GA said about it trying to load two different sets of variables does that same logic apply to The Fire Eyes cutscene and if so what is so different between the two that causes that one to have no issues and this one too have issues?

See above for most of this, but I do want to point out that we have no idea specifically why one does and does not work, we just know the differences and can only work off assumptions/theory from testing data. I've never seen Fire Eyes cause a crash, ever. That includes using noclip and insta-kill attacks on bosses to test things we normally have no way of doing. If Duckfist can replicate the crash, that would likely be really helpful for us so we could see what he's doing differently and possibly pull some questions/answers out of that, or anyone else that's witnessed a crash there.

Quote from MetaSigma:

Also there is a sound made when you enter the dungeon. A soft locking sound is heard I believe.

If loading from a file is determined to be how this trick is handled, it could be "easily" tested by doing inn skip, saving as the inn, as soon as you get confirmation of save, reset and reload that file, continue through to the end. If no crash out of say... 30-50 tests, then awesome, we're onto something potentially. I'm still messing around with Aquagoth on the TAS, he won't give me a proper frame to start my multi-casts on (need Corrosion to be cast on the 4th or 6th call bead spell so it gets delayed until i can cancel everything outright, thus no damage...) so I'm "stuck" right now with a serious lack of motivation.

Hope I cleared up at least a few things for you guys with the answers to the questions, probably just raised more though, lol.

[quote="MetaSigma"]I can pretty much attest that both times the sound just went completely blank. The first time I cast a petal (As was per the idea at the time). Walked into the room and *pop* it was gone right away.

The second time I waited for the bar to get to 100% and made sure only the music was playing. The moment I literally walked in the sound just went *pop* and it was gone even before I got into the menu which was literally the moment I had control of the boy. It is weird that in games that are loaded it's not an issue quite often, but in full on runs it seems to crash at a much higher rate. At least in all my tests that's what I've noticed.

As a notice it might have something to do with the musical note being played while you enter the room (As Panda has put above). One other thing I remembered Duckfist saying a while ago when we skip an entire scene of Fire Eyes dialogue is he mentioned this same issue happened to him (Where it softlocked) a few times. I never had that happen though and that was my thinking regarding this. If the game can do it with the Fire Eyes cut scene why is the dungeon different?[/quote]

They're different because the Fire Eyes scenes are more or less an OR case, while the dungeon is an AND case. What I mean by this is that Fire Eyes scenes are triggered by outside factors leading up to being drawn into the hut, thus the game is already aware of what it's supposed to be doing. Probably by a trigger during the Thraxx kill which alters the items in the huts to be call beads instead of dog biscuits. I'd assume that during this process, we're flagging the Call Bead conversation about the volcano to be enabled instead of the dog naming one. The dungeon, however, is triggered upon entry for all our needs. As it would seem, we have no way of enabling a flag to say we've dealt with one case or a way to prioritize one over the other. This apparently is something the game hates.

As a side note, another case of this is with Early Mad Monk in the TAS. You'll notice I leave the area and re-enter, that's because if I don't, the map is hung on one event due to how fast things are done in the TAS and once the bridge is triggered, the sound does what it does in the dungeon and softlocks. Something I want to stress here is that it's a SOFTLOCK in this scenario, we've had both... hard and soft lockups with the dungeon, which is a key difference from this specific issue I came across.

[quote="MetaSigma"]With regards to what GA said about it trying to load two different sets of variables does that same logic apply to The Fire Eyes cutscene and if so what is so different between the two that causes that one to have no issues and this one too have issues?[/quote]

See above for most of this, but I do want to point out that we have no idea specifically why one does and does not work, we just know the differences and can only work off assumptions/theory from testing data. I've never seen Fire Eyes cause a crash, ever. That includes using noclip and insta-kill attacks on bosses to test things we normally have no way of doing. If Duckfist can replicate the crash, that would likely be really helpful for us so we could see what he's doing differently and possibly pull some questions/answers out of that, or anyone else that's witnessed a crash there.

[quote="MetaSigma"]Also there is a sound made when you enter the dungeon. A soft locking sound is heard I believe.[/quote]

If loading from a file is determined to be how this trick is handled, it could be "easily" tested by doing inn skip, saving as the inn, as soon as you get confirmation of save, reset and reload that file, continue through to the end. If no crash out of say... 30-50 tests, then awesome, we're onto something potentially. I'm still messing around with Aquagoth on the TAS, he won't give me a proper frame to start my multi-casts on (need Corrosion to be cast on the 4th or 6th call bead spell so it gets delayed until i can cancel everything outright, thus no damage...) so I'm "stuck" right now with a serious lack of motivation.

Hope I cleared up at least a few things for you guys with the answers to the questions, probably just raised more though, lol.

Vultuz

2014-05-14 04:47:45 am

Ok a bit off the discussion:
Got a new PB, actually with Verminator Skip
1:20:53 http://www.twitch.tv/vultuz/c/4247299
The Sub 1:20 is getting closer for me Tongue

Skarsnik

2014-05-14 06:07:45 am

I get the first fireeyes cutscene when going back in act1 after act2, when trying to find a backup around diamond's eyes skip fail in a race. Then I get the third cutscene.

Lemon

2014-05-16 03:25:20 am

I did the skip 5 times now and it never crashed. No saves only full runs. Maybe its console dependend

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2014-05-16 03:49:37 am

2014-05-16 03:48:45 am

...

If I can get my 'big' NTSC SNES fixed i'd like to try it on that one aswell Smiley

edit: maybe i'll try it in its current state Tongue

the game should still be playable but with horrible textures Sad

Skarsnik

2014-05-16 06:00:28 am

Ok twitch delete past broadcast after 4 days, so you have to hightligh to keep them.

Lemon, Do you have a video of these runs?