scripted runs

2004-10-29 09:16:50 am

Guys - have you ever thought about making a seperate category for scripted runs (similar to 'long-way' runs)?

it seems a bit dodgy that runs like e4m2_027 / e1m1_021 (as fantastic as they are) hold the records when the slower, non-scripted runs are harder to achieve, and imho, more impressive (e.g. markus' e1m1_022 and Joe's e4m2_028 )

I'm not sure if it's possible to detect all scripts, though - I've heard some nasty rumours about a few id demos Lips Sealed

Thread title:

Valeriy

2004-10-29 10:00:23 am

I totally agree with Connor.

That e4m2_027 made me wanna puke......
Anyone watching that demo will certainly take SDA for Script Demos Archive...... Cry

Valeriy

j0zz1e

2004-10-30 08:52:02 pm

...

I never had any matter with others using scripts, really. For me QdQ and SDA was/is always a joy, not some blood serious competition where I must be the best. As I remember the only time I used aliases was to turn the right angle at the start of some maps. This time though, I doubt human could perform this shit zigzag trick without a script. Sad, but that's it :-/

Kay

Edit history:

Kay: 2004-11-03 03:27:58 am

2004-11-03 03:20:04 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The main problem is that there are different scripts, or commands even that enables you to do things you could never have done normally. And then there's scripts that simplify things that you can do (to some extent even). They are all the "easy way out", I think everyone agrees on this. But where to draw the line.

The trick in Jozsefs e4m2_027 is impossible to do, no matter how long you practise (it seems so to me nevertheless). The only way you could do it manually is in hfr. Now we all know how we feel about hfr.

The trick in Fabians e1m1_054 (quick exit out of water) is impossible for anyone nowadays, without a small script that toggles a slower fps.
Edit: And yes, Fabian did script that section. Or he used some method of "hogging the CPU" to affect his fps. I can't remember if he officially said it though. I would think he probably did inform everyone of what he was doing, since the demo is accepted on the tables.

Alias +slow "cl_maxfps 20"
alias -slow "cl_maxfps 72"
bind x +slow

I think I used something like that just to test it. Suddenly a faster route is possible. 2+ seconds cut just by holding a button. There are many, many fast-exit-out-of-water and exit-out-of-water-where-you-normally-couldnt-have-tricks you could pull of with this. Alot of maps are thrown wide open if someone starts to actively use this.

Where to draw the line. I don't know. I know for sure that I could sit down and script an entire run if I just wanted to waste enough time. Scripting hard parts of a 100% run would work wonders for me (think bouncing grenades around corners etc), with my aweful aim =)

I remember when I first saw Peters e1m1_021. It was beyond anything I had seen. Particularly because, at the time, I'd tried some running on that map with 26 seconds as my best result. But it stung a great deal when Stubby told me that he scripted the barrel section. However I still have great respect for Peter, but not because of the first demo I saw of him, e1m1_021. Mostly because I think he could have done it without the script, but took "the easy way out". This is so unlike him, when you see some of the incredible and absolute god-like runs he has done.

The main problem is that there are different scripts, or commands even that enables you to do things you could never have done normally. And then there's scripts that simplify things that you can do (to some extent even). They are all the "easy way out", I think everyone agrees on this. But where to draw the line.

The trick in Jozsefs e4m2_027 is impossible to do, no matter how long you practise (it seems so to me nevertheless). The only way you could do it manually is in hfr. Now we all know how we feel about hfr.

The trick in Fabians e1m1_054 (quick exit out of water) is impossible for anyone nowadays, without a small script that toggles a slower fps.
Edit: And yes, Fabian did script that section. Or he used some method of "hogging the CPU" to affect his fps. I can't remember if he officially said it though. I would think he probably did inform everyone of what he was doing, since the demo is accepted on the tables.

Alias +slow "cl_maxfps 20"
alias -slow "cl_maxfps 72"
bind x +slow

I think I used something like that just to test it. Suddenly a faster route is possible. 2+ seconds cut just by holding a button. There are many, many fast-exit-out-of-water and exit-out-of-water-where-you-normally-couldnt-have-tricks you could pull of with this. Alot of maps are thrown wide open if someone starts to actively use this.

Where to draw the line. I don't know. I know for sure that I could sit down and script an entire run if I just wanted to waste enough time. Scripting hard parts of a 100% run would work wonders for me (think bouncing grenades around corners etc), with my aweful aim =)

I remember when I first saw Peters e1m1_021. It was beyond anything I had seen. Particularly because, at the time, I'd tried some running on that map with 26 seconds as my best result. But it stung a great deal when Stubby told me that he scripted the barrel section. However I still have great respect for Peter, but not because of the first demo I saw of him, e1m1_021. Mostly because I think he could have done it without the script, but took "the easy way out". This is so unlike him, when you see some of the incredible and absolute god-like runs he has done.

sidd (george)

2004-11-03 03:56:00 am

I agree with Kay.

Scripting has been allowed because it is just client side hackery. In theory, they are tricks that you could *possibly* do just be being an utter god. However it comes to the stage when some tricks just bend the rules too far.

To me, the great thing about watching a supurb demo is the feeling that I could have done this. It's just some guy with a keyboard and mouse bashing his way through the levels i know at breakneck speed. But it's hard to admire the skill involved when you know that the hardest tricks were scripted, and really didnt involve all that much skill anyway.

Now don't get me wrong, e1m1_021 is a great run, even without the scripted part. But imagine if we had never allowed scripted sections. Maybe Peter, or someone else would have made 021 anyway. That would be a demo i would like to see.

Same with e4m2_027, its a fantastic run, but the old time might still have been beaten using the old exit method. It certainly won't now.

I think one problem is that scripting gives you a way of perfecting a trick, getting it every time, and thus making it impossible to improve upon. The difference between this and other "progressions" in running (bunnies, wall hugging) is that this one doesnt make you a better quake player. It doesn't make the run look more skillful, in fact, it detracts from it, because it makes the hardest tricks dead simple, and achievable to anyone who has the script.

Well, thats my 2 cents. Anyone else?

I agree with Kay.

Scripting has been allowed because it is just client side hackery. In theory, they are tricks that you could *possibly* do just be being an utter god. However it comes to the stage when some tricks just bend the rules too far.

To me, the great thing about watching a supurb demo is the feeling that [b]I[/b] could have done this. It's just some guy with a keyboard and mouse bashing his way through the levels i know at breakneck speed. But it's hard to admire the skill involved when you know that the hardest tricks were scripted, and really didnt involve all that much skill anyway.

Now don't get me wrong, e1m1_021 is a great run, even without the scripted part. But imagine if we had never allowed scripted sections. Maybe Peter, or someone else would have made 021 anyway. That would be a demo i would like to see.

Same with e4m2_027, its a fantastic run, but the old time might still have been beaten using the old exit method. It certainly won't now.

I think one problem is that scripting gives you a way of perfecting a trick, getting it every time, and thus making it impossible to improve upon. The difference between this and other "progressions" in running (bunnies, wall hugging) is that this one doesnt make you a better quake player. It doesn't make the run look more skillful, in fact, it detracts from it, because it makes the hardest tricks dead simple, and achievable to anyone who has the script.

Well, thats my 2 cents. Anyone else?

OpenGL

2004-11-03 09:07:08 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

well, i would like to say something since it is me who invented the e4m2 trick. when i invented it i just bound two keys that strafe left/right and turn left/right at the same time, and then i need to tap the two keys quickly and manually to do the trick, is that "script" complicated enough to be considered "cheating"? well, that's what i wrote to joe about the trick, then he extended the script to do the whole thing with one key press. last of all, scripts can make some very difficult tricks possible, but it won't do everything for you.

btw, can anyone write a script to do the e2m2 jump automatically? :devil:

Kay: the cl_maxfps option only exists in quake2, there is no way to limit your quake1 framerate with a command, maybe set to a very high resolution and then change the viewsize?

Kay

Edit history:

Kay: 2004-11-03 04:27:18 pm

2004-11-03 04:23:05 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

OpenGL: Works in Joequake anyway.

But Fabian probably used some kind of program in the background. A timed cpu-test utility would work perfectly. I think Mandel analyzed the fps in the demo and found some interesting stuff.

Mandel

2004-11-03 05:08:03 pm

Mumma

For the sake of reference:

Radix

2004-11-03 11:01:03 pm

I'm addicted to games

The answer is simple... anyone who uses a script without plainly admitting it is doing a big diservice to everyone, pretending to be something they're not. Back in 1997 I tried to write a grenade jump script because I sucked at them, and since my computer basically got a constant 10 fps it was "easy". The results weren't spectacular, but they worked. However as soon as we all got decent computers, scripts were impossible because the framerate varied too much. Now however, nearly all of us can max out at 72 fps all the time even on the huge maps, and scripts are possible again. Because of monster randomness you couldn't possible script anything long, unless it's a map that's void of monsters, and even then if windows decides to hog the cpu for some background process for even 0.01 seconds that'll throw off your perfect 72 fps eventually. Remember this is all for fun & show anyway, don't piss people off by trying to be something you're not.

sidd (george)

2004-11-04 10:12:25 am

mandel. how did you do that fps graph?

mwh

2004-11-04 10:36:51 am

Quote:

mandel. how did you do that fps graph?

An unholy combination of lmpc, excel and grep, if I recall correctly.

Radix

2004-11-04 10:38:31 am

I'm addicted to games

Making an fps graph is pretty easy if you know what you're doing. Just use demtool -w to output an ls file of a demo, then grep out the lines with the time on them. Import the lines into excel (or it's gpl equivilent) and get the difference between them. Take the inverse of the differences to get fps and graph the result!

Morfans

2004-11-13 08:25:45 am

Hell is where the heart is.

Okay. Scripts.

Scripts have been a total pain in the arse issue for us for some years now and I honestly don't think we'll ever find a totally satisfactory middle ground. But here goes...

A short history lesson

Back in January 2002 legendary speedrunning legend Ilkka "I'm a legend" Kurkela sent us a demo that used a script to ensure that the first couple of seconds of a demo always went smoothly. He also said "but don't post this as a record because I don't want to be associated with this kind of shit. Just watch this out of interest".

A week or so later he contacted us again saying that he'd spotted something in a demo and he thought it looked funny, could we check it out. It did indeed look very much like the runner had scripted a trick in one of his demos. We (Myself, Nolan, Stubby, Ilkka, Stefan and a couple of others who escape my memory for the moment, and of course the person that produced the demo) discussed this at great length. The demo did indeed contain a scripted trick, the runner said he was only doing it as an experiment to see what could be done, the trick wasn't that impressive anyway and there is no doubt that the person in question could have done it without a script.

So where did that leave us? Well, we knew that this was not a widespread problem. A couple of us spent hours watching dozens of demos in slow motion trying to find scripted tricks. We found three: e1m1 barrel, e1m1 water exit and the one mentioned above. Experimentation showed that scripting long sections was pointless due to fluctuating framerates but short sections could be automated. But they look quite obvious when slowed down.
So not wishing to open up the whole can of worms and the possibiliteis of i) accusations of "cheating" and ii) putting ideas into peoples heads we decided to ask those that had used them to not use them in future and then just kept quiet about the whole thing. Besides, since 99% of runners see the whole thing as just a bit of good natured fun and wouldn't want to use scripts or other "cheats" anyway we didn't see any need to stir things up.

All was quiet until July 2003 when people suddenly started asking about scripts and what was considered to be fair use of scripts. This prompted the SDA news update of July 25th 2003 which stated...

If you DO feel you need to use a script , for example for aiming during intermission kills or to face a certain way at the start of a demo, then please credit the fact that you used a script and include the script itself in your .txt file. That way everyone can clearly see what you've done.

...and we left it at that (see the old news for the full news post). Things went quiet then and people went on making cool demos and not using scripts right up until a few weeks ago when Joe sent in his e4m2_027. He clearly stated that he'd used a script and he published the script in his .txt just as we asked. But was this a script to far???

What is a script and are they cheating?

Simply speaking a script is a set of commands joined together. This is illustrated by the following examples (all of which I have written here from memory so I apologise if they don't actually work properly. :-) The word "cheating" is used here to donate "an unfair use of scripts that goes against the spirit of SDA"

alias nailz "impulse 4;wait;impulse 5"
Select the NG then select the SNG. Thus it will select your best nailgun. Is this cheating? I think most people would agree that it isn't.

alias cooprec "stop;wait;disconnect;wait;wait;record coopdemo;connect 69.69.69.69"
Stops the current demo, starts a new one and reconnects to a coop server. Is this cheating? Obviously not!

bind "SPACE" "impulse 2;+attack;wait;-attack;impulse 3"
Fire the shotgun once and switch to SSG. Lifted directly from my config.cfg. Is this cheating? In my opinion it's too simple to be cheating, others may disagree.

alias rjump "cl_pitchspeed 9999;+lookdown;wait;impulse 7;+jump;+attack;wait;-attack;-jump;-lookdown;centerview;cl_pitchspeed 150"
This will probably perform a rocket jump. Is this cheating? Hmmm. It's quite complex but limited in use unless you want to do a simple "straight up" RJ (which isn't difficult to do anyway!). A classic example of "scripting a trick". Is it cheating? Some might say so, but this kind of RJ script has been used since Quake first came out. Besides, if you want to get any kind horizontal speed boost out of the rocket you're going to have to learn to adjust the angle of the RJ and thus learn to RJ manually anyway.

alias +r "+moveright;wait;+right"
alias -r "-moveright;wait;-right"
alias +l "+moveleft;wait;+left"
alias -l "-moveleft;wait;-left"
alias r "+r;wait;wait;wait;wait;wait;-r"
alias l "+l;wait;wait;wait;wait;wait;-l"
bind s "cl_yawspeed 250;r;cl_yawspeed 380;l;r;l;r;l;r;cl_yawspeed 250;l"
Finally, here's the script Joe used to perform the exit trick on e4m2. It is generally accepted that this move is impossible for a human player to do and this script is more complex than any of the other examples. Is this cheating? Some people obviously think so. Joe was totally honest about how he did it so no deception was intended but is this just too much automated help. In my view this is right on the limit. Others on the team think it's gone over the limit.

Our official stance

Nolan pretty much summed it up in his post above. "Remember this is all for fun & show anyway, don't piss people off by trying to be something you're not."
People have a pretty good idea of what's fair and what's not. From now on, if you are going to use a script that you think might even be a little bit contentious mail us and ask if we'll accept it. Chances are if it's in any way complex of "not in the spirit" we'll say "Sorry, no. That's too much." In any case, if you do use one then plainly stating that you used it and putting it in the .txt is still required.

This will not make the slightest bit of difference to most of you since you wouldn't want to use a script anyway, but hopefully this will set some boundaries for anyone that is thinking of using one.

For the record, if Joe had mailed us before he made the run and said "I want to use this script, will you still accept the demo?" I'd have probably been the first one to say "Sorry, Joe, that's a bit to much...". But since he didn't and since he has such a long track record of cool demos and being a nice guy we thought we'd post it.

I hope this has cleared things up, now GO MAKE SOME (unscripted) DEMOS! :-)

Okay. Scripts.

Scripts have been a total pain in the arse issue for us for some years now and I honestly don't think we'll ever find a totally satisfactory middle ground. But here goes...

A short history lesson

Back in January 2002 legendary speedrunning legend Ilkka "I'm a legend" Kurkela sent us a demo that used a script to ensure that the first couple of seconds of a demo always went smoothly. He also said "but don't post this as a record because I don't want to be associated with this kind of shit. Just watch this out of interest".

A week or so later he contacted us again saying that he'd spotted something in a demo and he thought it looked funny, could we check it out. It did indeed look very much like the runner had scripted a trick in one of his demos. We (Myself, Nolan, Stubby, Ilkka, Stefan and a couple of others who escape my memory for the moment, and of course the person that produced the demo) discussed this at great length. The demo did indeed contain a scripted trick, the runner said he was only doing it as an experiment to see what could be done, the trick wasn't that impressive anyway and there is no doubt that the person in question could have done it without a script.

So where did that leave us? Well, we knew that this was not a widespread problem. A couple of us spent hours watching dozens of demos in slow motion trying to find scripted tricks. We found three: e1m1 barrel, e1m1 water exit and the one mentioned above. Experimentation showed that scripting long sections was pointless due to fluctuating framerates but short sections could be automated. But they look quite obvious when slowed down.
So not wishing to open up the whole can of worms and the possibiliteis of i) accusations of "cheating" and ii) putting ideas into peoples heads we decided to ask those that had used them to not use them in future and then just kept quiet about the whole thing. Besides, since 99% of runners see the whole thing as just a bit of good natured fun and wouldn't want to use scripts or other "cheats" anyway we didn't see any need to stir things up.

All was quiet until July 2003 when people suddenly started asking about scripts and what was considered to be fair use of scripts. This prompted the SDA news update of July 25th 2003 which stated...

If you DO feel you need to use a script , for example for aiming during intermission kills or to face a certain way at the start of a demo, then please credit the fact that you used a script and include the script itself in your .txt file. That way everyone can clearly see what you've done.

...and we left it at that (see the old news for the full news post). Things went quiet then and people went on making cool demos and not using scripts right up until a few weeks ago when Joe sent in his e4m2_027. He clearly stated that he'd used a script and he published the script in his .txt just as we asked. But was this a script to far???

What is a script and are they cheating?

Simply speaking a script is a set of commands joined together. This is illustrated by the following examples (all of which I have written here from memory so I apologise if they don't actually work properly. :-) The word "cheating" is used here to donate "an unfair use of scripts that goes against the spirit of SDA"

alias nailz "impulse 4;wait;impulse 5"
Select the NG then select the SNG. Thus it will select your best nailgun. Is this cheating? I think most people would agree that it isn't.

alias cooprec "stop;wait;disconnect;wait;wait;record coopdemo;connect 69.69.69.69"
Stops the current demo, starts a new one and reconnects to a coop server. Is this cheating? Obviously not!

bind "SPACE" "impulse 2;+attack;wait;-attack;impulse 3"
Fire the shotgun once and switch to SSG. Lifted directly from my config.cfg. Is this cheating? In my opinion it's too simple to be cheating, others may disagree.

alias rjump "cl_pitchspeed 9999;+lookdown;wait;impulse 7;+jump;+attack;wait;-attack;-jump;-lookdown;centerview;cl_pitchspeed 150"
This will probably perform a rocket jump. Is this cheating? Hmmm. It's quite complex but limited in use unless you want to do a simple "straight up" RJ (which isn't difficult to do anyway!). A classic example of "scripting a trick". Is it cheating? Some might say so, but this kind of RJ script has been used since Quake first came out. Besides, if you want to get any kind horizontal speed boost out of the rocket you're going to have to learn to adjust the angle of the RJ and thus learn to RJ manually anyway.

alias +r "+moveright;wait;+right"
alias -r "-moveright;wait;-right"
alias +l "+moveleft;wait;+left"
alias -l "-moveleft;wait;-left"
alias r "+r;wait;wait;wait;wait;wait;-r"
alias l "+l;wait;wait;wait;wait;wait;-l"
bind s "cl_yawspeed 250;r;cl_yawspeed 380;l;r;l;r;l;r;cl_yawspeed 250;l"
Finally, here's the script Joe used to perform the exit trick on e4m2. It is generally accepted that this move is impossible for a human player to do and this script is more complex than any of the other examples. Is this cheating? Some people obviously think so. Joe was totally honest about how he did it so no deception was intended but is this just too much automated help. In my view this is right on the limit. Others on the team think it's gone over the limit.

Our official stance

Nolan pretty much summed it up in his post above. "Remember this is all for fun & show anyway, don't piss people off by trying to be something you're not."
People have a pretty good idea of what's fair and what's not. From now on, if you are going to use a script that you think might even be a little bit contentious mail us and ask if we'll accept it. Chances are if it's in any way complex of "not in the spirit" we'll say "Sorry, no. That's too much." In any case, if you do use one then plainly stating that you used it and putting it in the .txt is still required.

This will not make the slightest bit of difference to most of you since you wouldn't want to use a script anyway, but hopefully this will set some boundaries for anyone that is thinking of using one.

For the record, if Joe had mailed us before he made the run and said "I want to use this script, will you still accept the demo?" I'd have probably been the first one to say "Sorry, Joe, that's a bit to much...". But since he didn't and since he has such a long track record of cool demos and being a nice guy we thought we'd post it.

I hope this has cleared things up, now GO MAKE SOME (unscripted) DEMOS! :-)

j0zz1e

2004-11-16 01:28:01 pm

unfortunately this indeed kills the whole speedrunning mentality and world... becoz there SHOULDN'T be any trick that can't be pulled off w/o scripting. But there is :-(
I've just realized this.
If it wasn't be an original Id record, it wouldn't be that important. But man, it's e4m2!
Well, this can suck if you care about it.

mwh

2004-11-17 06:28:30 pm

Quote:

unfortunately this indeed kills the whole speedrunning mentality and world... becoz there SHOULDN'T be any trick that can't be pulled off w/o scripting. But there is :-(
I've just realized this.
If it wasn't be an original Id record, it wouldn't be that important. But man, it's e4m2!
Well, this can suck if you care about it.

Can you try that again, but make sense this time? I really don't see what you are trying to say, sorry.

Droog_Andrey

2004-11-17 09:33:38 pm

Thunderbolt Forever :)

Quote:

Can you try that again, but make sense this time? I really don't see what you are trying to say, sorry.

IMHO all is clear.