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Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Rygar.html
Rygar (Any %) (Single Segment) [Deaths]
Verifier Responses
Decision: Reject
Reason: Two reasons. First of all there's the "objectively slower" argument. Also, if you're going to use deaths in this game you should use them as effectively as possible. We don't need 3 categories for Rygar.
This run will be available for a month. After that this link will no longer work.
http://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/queue/verificationfiles/444
Rygar (Any %) (Single Segment) [Deaths]
Verifier Responses
Quote:
The V copy has a couple seconds of a reset that should be clipped off. The video is at a really weird resolution (336x240? the hell) and has a weird shimmer that seems a bit more intense than normal NES shimmer, but nothing reject worthy so whatever. Seems fine other than that.
Execution and luck seems really good in this run, the runner makes a trip to refill his health just before the final area but this isn't surprising at all considering the difficulty of the final area/boss.
Here's the problem, though. A death abuse run doesn't have to kill all the bosses, so this run should really be a lot shorter than it is. You could call it "Deaths, All Bosses", and it would be a perfectly fine run, but I'm not sure this is a category we want to keep distinct from either "Deathless" or "Deaths (with boss skips)".
That said, I'm willing to accept this for now but I would have no problem at all with it being replaced with a death abuse run that skipped unnecessary bosses (of sufficient quality, of course).
Execution and luck seems really good in this run, the runner makes a trip to refill his health just before the final area but this isn't surprising at all considering the difficulty of the final area/boss.
Here's the problem, though. A death abuse run doesn't have to kill all the bosses, so this run should really be a lot shorter than it is. You could call it "Deaths, All Bosses", and it would be a perfectly fine run, but I'm not sure this is a category we want to keep distinct from either "Deathless" or "Deaths (with boss skips)".
That said, I'm willing to accept this for now but I would have no problem at all with it being replaced with a death abuse run that skipped unnecessary bosses (of sufficient quality, of course).
Quote:
I guess this'll out myself, but it's necessary.
When Feasel and I started to run this, we made the decision to go deathless because A) there was precedence with the prior run, and B) if you're going to abuse death, why not just abuse death to the fullest, aka death warp glitch. On this alone, I'd have trouble accepting the run since the route doesn't fully take advantage of death abuse.
For the quality of the run, I'd say Dorago was the best split. Picked up 6 seconds to my run and I doubt all of it was with using attack and assail (ok, 3 seconds of it was).
The two death abuses in pure time seem to save 85 seconds in pure time. Add 20 to make up for tone and the such and other factors maybe and the run should be faster by about a minute. It's 22:16/17 by my counter, which is forty seconds faster than no deaths. That's 20 seconds at least behind. Sagila was +8 with no change in route. Lapis was +7 with no change in route. Curious decisions in Lapis, too. Picked up mind points with no intention of using them. Picking up the potion is more defensible, but you shouldn't get hit by anything in Lapis, and if the boss hits you, you're dead whether you have 1 HP or 0 HP.
The final boss strat, while novel, is slower. Giving back 11 to get the health, maybe a necessity, but five mind points is faster and could skip that health.
All in all, it's a pretty good run, but so is Feasel's best, and that's not on SDA. I'd say this run is 12-15 seconds behind in quality to mine, just like Feasel's, and again, his isn't on SDA. That, and the question on whether SDA wants THREE Rygar categories on site (no death, death abuse, death abuse with skips) makes me vote to reject the run. I'd rather the runner just beat my time, which given what I see in this submission, he/she obviously can do.
When Feasel and I started to run this, we made the decision to go deathless because A) there was precedence with the prior run, and B) if you're going to abuse death, why not just abuse death to the fullest, aka death warp glitch. On this alone, I'd have trouble accepting the run since the route doesn't fully take advantage of death abuse.
For the quality of the run, I'd say Dorago was the best split. Picked up 6 seconds to my run and I doubt all of it was with using attack and assail (ok, 3 seconds of it was).
The two death abuses in pure time seem to save 85 seconds in pure time. Add 20 to make up for tone and the such and other factors maybe and the run should be faster by about a minute. It's 22:16/17 by my counter, which is forty seconds faster than no deaths. That's 20 seconds at least behind. Sagila was +8 with no change in route. Lapis was +7 with no change in route. Curious decisions in Lapis, too. Picked up mind points with no intention of using them. Picking up the potion is more defensible, but you shouldn't get hit by anything in Lapis, and if the boss hits you, you're dead whether you have 1 HP or 0 HP.
The final boss strat, while novel, is slower. Giving back 11 to get the health, maybe a necessity, but five mind points is faster and could skip that health.
All in all, it's a pretty good run, but so is Feasel's best, and that's not on SDA. I'd say this run is 12-15 seconds behind in quality to mine, just like Feasel's, and again, his isn't on SDA. That, and the question on whether SDA wants THREE Rygar categories on site (no death, death abuse, death abuse with skips) makes me vote to reject the run. I'd rather the runner just beat my time, which given what I see in this submission, he/she obviously can do.
Quote:
I'd have to side with mystery verifier #2 - I think that a deaths category should take advantage of the death warp from the first boss. That's where it is, right?
I'm inclined to reject based on category decisions.
I'm inclined to reject based on category decisions.
Quote:
To give a sense for how this run actually compares to the current SDA run (Darkwing's deathless WR) in terms of gameplay, I looked at the length of the 3 major sections where the routes differ:
1. Beginning when Rygar emerges from the grappling hook room, ending when Rygar scrolls the screen rightward from the column of the Garloz map that contains the door to Gran Mountains (into the next screen that contains the river).
26.50 sec in Darkwing's
15.83 sec in new run
2. Beginning when Rygar emerges from Dorago's palace, ending when Rygar enters the door to Gran Mountains.
65.17 sec in Darkwing's
4.77 sec in new run
3. Beginning when Rygar enters the column of the Garloz map that contains the door to the health refill, ending when Rygar exits that column leftward (into the next screen that contains the entrance to Rolsa)
5.03 sec in Darkwing's
16.93 sec in new run
The overall difference between the new run (22:17.03) and Darkwing's run (22:55.60) is 38.57 seconds.
This means that the new run is 20.6 seconds slower than Darkwing's run after discounting the effect of the deathwarps. One could make an argument that there are other ways in which the gameplay differ which aren't being accounted for by cropping out those 3 sections, however I don't think that any such difference could account for more than just a couple seconds. The Dorago and Ligar fights are almost the same speed with and without A&A (remember that the Ligar fight you will be starting with nearly full health) and any differences in where you're able to damage-boost pretty much cancel each other out.
I would reject this run as an improvement to the existing SDA run based on the fact that the gameplay is objectively slower. By close to 20 seconds, which is very large given the level of optimization Rygar is at.
As for allowing the run as a separate "Any% with deaths" category -- as everybody is already aware, a Rygar run with deaths looks nothing like this and would of course be well under 20 minutes.
As for whether SDA wants to allow all three: "Any% with deaths (major skip)", "Any% with deaths (no major skip)", and "Any% deathless" -- I believe this has been discussed and I don't remember anybody who was of the opinion that there was a significant enough difference between the latter two to warrant having both. The strategic differences between the two categories are pretty small overall.
Still I'd like to reiterate that my main reason for rejecting the run is not because I don't like the category, but because the gameplay is objectively slower than the existing SDA run. If the run were clearly faster (beyond what the deathwarps could account for) I would feel differently.
It seems to me that the runner has the potential to beat Darkwing's deathless run with enough attempts. I hope he goes for it (or alternatively, goes for the full-on deathwarps route that skips bosses).
1. Beginning when Rygar emerges from the grappling hook room, ending when Rygar scrolls the screen rightward from the column of the Garloz map that contains the door to Gran Mountains (into the next screen that contains the river).
26.50 sec in Darkwing's
15.83 sec in new run
2. Beginning when Rygar emerges from Dorago's palace, ending when Rygar enters the door to Gran Mountains.
65.17 sec in Darkwing's
4.77 sec in new run
3. Beginning when Rygar enters the column of the Garloz map that contains the door to the health refill, ending when Rygar exits that column leftward (into the next screen that contains the entrance to Rolsa)
5.03 sec in Darkwing's
16.93 sec in new run
The overall difference between the new run (22:17.03) and Darkwing's run (22:55.60) is 38.57 seconds.
This means that the new run is 20.6 seconds slower than Darkwing's run after discounting the effect of the deathwarps. One could make an argument that there are other ways in which the gameplay differ which aren't being accounted for by cropping out those 3 sections, however I don't think that any such difference could account for more than just a couple seconds. The Dorago and Ligar fights are almost the same speed with and without A&A (remember that the Ligar fight you will be starting with nearly full health) and any differences in where you're able to damage-boost pretty much cancel each other out.
I would reject this run as an improvement to the existing SDA run based on the fact that the gameplay is objectively slower. By close to 20 seconds, which is very large given the level of optimization Rygar is at.
As for allowing the run as a separate "Any% with deaths" category -- as everybody is already aware, a Rygar run with deaths looks nothing like this and would of course be well under 20 minutes.
As for whether SDA wants to allow all three: "Any% with deaths (major skip)", "Any% with deaths (no major skip)", and "Any% deathless" -- I believe this has been discussed and I don't remember anybody who was of the opinion that there was a significant enough difference between the latter two to warrant having both. The strategic differences between the two categories are pretty small overall.
Still I'd like to reiterate that my main reason for rejecting the run is not because I don't like the category, but because the gameplay is objectively slower than the existing SDA run. If the run were clearly faster (beyond what the deathwarps could account for) I would feel differently.
It seems to me that the runner has the potential to beat Darkwing's deathless run with enough attempts. I hope he goes for it (or alternatively, goes for the full-on deathwarps route that skips bosses).
Quote:
Flipgar!
I have to agree with the other verifiers here. SDA does have a quality standard. And while this run is by no means horrible, the run quality must be compared with the existing run(s), for any game. I've rejected before on these grounds. A run should stand on it's own. If an improvement, or obsoletion, is primarily from a route change and not execution, it has to be considered. So I concur on the REJECT as I believe a 'meh' accept would not sway the decision here anyway.
I have to agree with the other verifiers here. SDA does have a quality standard. And while this run is by no means horrible, the run quality must be compared with the existing run(s), for any game. I've rejected before on these grounds. A run should stand on it's own. If an improvement, or obsoletion, is primarily from a route change and not execution, it has to be considered. So I concur on the REJECT as I believe a 'meh' accept would not sway the decision here anyway.
Quote:
Yeah, i have to agree with the above. there are no large mistakes, just a lot of small pauses, mostly for enemy spawns. In a run this highly contested, needs luck as well as good management. I'd encourage the runner to give it another crack. Or beat Darkwing.
Decision: Reject
Reason: Two reasons. First of all there's the "objectively slower" argument. Also, if you're going to use deaths in this game you should use them as effectively as possible. We don't need 3 categories for Rygar.
This run will be available for a month. After that this link will no longer work.
http://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/queue/verificationfiles/444
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