Rules and FAQ revision

2010-10-15 07:59:31 am

Yes, Inexistence is a word.

I'm not going to speak for the rest of the SourceRuns team, as I don't on hand have their responses in the thread we made on our forums (Domain ran out), so I'll just say the opinion I put forward when this revision came out.

When I read it, I was a little annoyed I guess, since we were planning to get Half Life 2: Episode Two done and onto SDA, using AHK scripts again. However, I think it made perfect sense, and it was in the best interest of SDA to implement that rule change. It suits SDA best, in my opinion, and we had a vote to see if we wanted to keep running the game with scripts, or restart without scripts so that we could upload it to SDA. Eventually, we voted to just continue with scripts, and not submit it to SDA. I'll still link it in our topic when we're done, and I'm sure many people will enjoy it, but I don't blame SDA for not hosting it, whatsoever.

Also, about the mousewheel jump thing, I've been thinking the same thing. I've heard that there are mice with scrollwheels that will continuously scroll, until you specifically stop it. This could make AHK obsolete, and technically, SDA would be fine with it. Wallclimbing (where you spam jump and grab, so you can pull an object underneath you and have it lift you up against a wall) would be possible with it too, as you can spam e fast enough on your own to manage it.

I'm not going to speak for the rest of the SourceRuns team, as I don't on hand have their responses in the thread we made on our forums (Domain ran out), so I'll just say the opinion I put forward when this revision came out.

When I read it, I was a little annoyed I guess, since we were planning to get Half Life 2: Episode Two done and onto SDA, using AHK scripts again. However, I think it made perfect sense, and it was in the best interest of SDA to implement that rule change. It suits SDA best, in my opinion, and we had a vote to see if we wanted to keep running the game with scripts, or restart without scripts so that we could upload it to SDA. Eventually, we voted to just continue with scripts, and not submit it to SDA. I'll still link it in our topic when we're done, and I'm sure many people will enjoy it, but I don't blame SDA for not hosting it, whatsoever.

Also, about the mousewheel jump thing, I've been thinking the same thing. I've heard that there are mice with scrollwheels that will continuously scroll, until you specifically stop it. This could make AHK obsolete, and technically, SDA would be fine with it. Wallclimbing (where you spam jump and grab, so you can pull an object underneath you and have it lift you up against a wall) would be possible with it too, as you can spam e fast enough on your own to manage it.

ShadowWraith

2010-10-15 08:01:44 am

.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Is there a single person who speedruns games that allow scripts that's in favoring of banning all scripts?

Me.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-10-15 08:38:14 am

2010-10-15 08:36:28 am

Quote from Inexistence:

I've heard that there are mice with scrollwheels that will continuously scroll, until you specifically stop it. This could make AHK obsolete, and technically, SDA would be fine with it.

I wouldn't take as given that this will be allowed just because the result is acheived by hardware. There are mice and keyboards that offer macroing / scripting capabilities, too, and those wouldn't be allowed. Similarly, joysticks with turbo functions aren't allowed, even for PC (Mike explicitly said this back in the rules reworking thread of 2009), and what you're describing is fairly close to that. The borderline questions about what capabilities input hardware for PC is allowed to have are a section of SDA rules that hasn't been explored in any detail yet.

KhanFusion

2010-10-15 09:26:09 am

Quote from Inexistence:

However, I think it made perfect sense, and it was in the best interest of SDA to implement that rule change.

So, you wholeheartedly support this new rule and a couple of sentences later you start looking for ways to circumvent it. That's cute.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-10-15 09:32:31 am

Quote:

So, you wholeheartedly support this new rule and a couple of sentences later you start looking for ways to circumvent it. That's cute.

'Cute' is one way to describe it. Another would be to say that it intelligently and usefully raises a point about what the effects of the rule will be, how runners will deal with it, and whether and how the detail of the rule needs to be tweaked to prevent it just shifting the functions that were previously being acheived by scripts to being acheived by hardware instead.

Inexistence

2010-10-15 10:08:33 am

Yes, Inexistence is a word.

Quote from KhanFusion:

Quote from Inexistence:

However, I think it made perfect sense, and it was in the best interest of SDA to implement that rule change.

So, you wholeheartedly support this new rule and a couple of sentences later you start looking for ways to circumvent it. That's cute.

Yep, let's try to circumvent the rules, maliciously taking advantage of a possible loophole, by telling the entire community about it in the exact thread where the rules are being debated over. I'm just a great guy like that ^_^.

KhanFusion

Edit history:

KhanFusion: 2010-10-15 11:47:24 am

KhanFusion: 2010-10-15 11:41:55 am

KhanFusion: 2010-10-15 11:40:48 am

KhanFusion: 2010-10-15 11:29:37 am

2010-10-15 11:24:13 am

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

raises a point about what the effects of the rule will be, how runners will deal with it

That's not very hard to predict. Runners will make new runs for HL1, HL2 ep2, Portal 2 and post them on youtube. These runs will get thousands views minimum and 20 to 1 like to dislike ratios, while SDA will be left with old, scripted and obsoleted runs and that state of events will make a lot of people around here really happy.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

the rule needs to be tweaked to prevent it just shifting the functions that were previously being acheived by scripts to being acheived by hardware instead.

And I thought that if a rule makes you ban standard PC peripherals, like a mouse with inertial scroll wheel, then this rule should be questioned in the first place. After all, wasn't this rule about preventing possibility of making scripts that automate running? You can't do anything like that by binding an action to a mouse wheel, inertial or not. So what's the point of this rule now if it's supposed to cover such cases?

Quote from Inexistence:

I'm just a great guy like that ^_^.

Of course you are. Smiley

After all, you agreed with (almost) everybody but keep on doing things the way you and your team see fit.

[quote=ExplodingCabbage]raises a point about what the effects of the rule will be, how runners will deal with it[/quote] That's not very hard to predict. Runners will make new runs for HL1, HL2 ep2, Portal 2 and post them on youtube. These runs will get thousands views minimum and 20 to 1 like to dislike ratios, while SDA will be left with old, scripted and obsoleted runs and that state of events will make a lot of people around here really happy.

[quote=ExplodingCabbage]the rule needs to be tweaked to prevent it just shifting the functions that were previously being acheived by scripts to being acheived by hardware instead.[/quote] And I thought that if a rule makes you ban standard PC peripherals, like a mouse with inertial scroll wheel, then this rule should be questioned in the first place. After all, wasn't this rule about preventing possibility of making scripts that automate running? You can't do anything like that by binding an action to a mouse wheel, inertial or not. So what's the point of this rule now if it's supposed to cover such cases?

[quote=Inexistence]I'm just a great guy like that ^_^.[/quote] Of course you are. :) After all, you agreed with (almost) everybody but keep on doing things the way you and your team see fit.

quadrazid

2010-10-15 12:09:32 pm

Svart Lyser Tronen

Quote from KhanFusion:

Runners will make new runs for HL1, HL2 ep2, Portal 2 and post them on youtube. These runs will get thousands views minimum and 20 to 1 like to dislike ratios, while SDA will be left with old, scripted and obsoleted runs and that state of events will make a lot of people around here really happy.

Indeed. SDA still got the old scripted runs on the site, why not keep the grandfather rules and thus be able to improve them rather then scenario stated above?

Zyre

Edit history:

Zyre: 2010-10-15 12:22:16 pm

Zyre: 2010-10-15 12:20:55 pm

2010-10-15 12:20:13 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from quadrazid:

Indeed. SDA still got the old scripted runs on the site, why not keep the grandfather rules and thus be able to improve them rather then scenario stated above?

AFAIK, part of the rules revision is to help remove any grandfathering that occurs. Grandfathering tends to result (as far as I've seen) in a fair amount of drama in some cases. As these rules haven't 'officially' taken effect yet, the old scripted runs remain. I don't know what is planned for the runs when the new rules do officially start.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-15 12:33:38 pm

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-15 12:33:10 pm

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-15 12:32:59 pm

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-15 12:32:48 pm

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-15 12:32:40 pm

2010-10-15 12:32:27 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Didn't we have this discussion in a previous thread?

Trekhaak

2010-10-15 12:33:32 pm

Everybody's favorite monster

I saw what you did there Zenic Wink

ZenicReverie

2010-10-15 12:34:10 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Trekhaak:

I saw what you did there Zenic Wink

I figured somebody would. Wink

bebeDesigner

2010-10-15 01:58:24 pm

Just... allow these f-scripts for him. We all know Spider Waffle, know he is not the devil or an unknown cheater. We also dare to watch his new run. I'm a webdesigner and I'll make an individual site if everything goes wrong...

Trekhaak

2010-10-15 02:01:09 pm

Everybody's favorite monster

Quote from bebeDesigner:

Just... allow these f-scripts for him. We all know Spider Waffle, know he is not the devil or an unknown cheater. We also dare to watch his new run. I'm a webdesigner and I'll make an individual site if everything goes wrong...

If you make an exception for him there will be others who also want to be an exception. It will be a vicious circle

bebeDesigner

Edit history:

bebeDesigner: 2010-10-15 02:09:30 pm

2010-10-15 02:08:46 pm

its easy. mike's soul has to be strong, and disallow the followings for others. Smiley

Zyre

Edit history:

Zyre: 2010-10-15 02:14:06 pm

2010-10-15 02:11:17 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from bebeDesigner:

its easy. mike's soul has to be strong, and disallow the followings for others. Smiley

Then the others will gripe and complain and ask 'Why?' over and over again. Then they will be allowed to (which brings out the grandfathering...again), which puts us right back to where we started. Not exactly something that a lot of us want to see/hear.

bebeDesigner

Edit history:

bebeDesigner: 2010-10-15 02:21:38 pm

bebeDesigner: 2010-10-15 02:21:04 pm

2010-10-15 02:20:27 pm

then we can go back to the source of the problem: spiderwaffle wants to use scripts. rules disallow this thing. the problem is not on that page. SW must choose between quick or a legal run. The result is the same: we are going to watch this damn video. So who cares? spider waffle is a well known person here. He cannot be more famous. he makes a decision.

Miles

2010-10-15 02:48:53 pm

Quote from bebeDesigner:

He cannot be more famous.

Infamous, maybe.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2010-10-16 02:27:50 am

Spider-Waffle: 2010-10-15 03:37:12 pm

2010-10-15 03:27:34 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Show me a single example of someone new to SDA actually coming along to the forum and posting to say that they enjoyed your run more because it had scripts in it, and I will eat my own epenis.

Quote from xsite:

The fact of the matter is that the 30 minute HL run is an iconic speed run that introduced numerous people to SDA for the first time (myself included), and that was made possible due to an exception that Radix made, and one would be hard pressed to argue that it was poor judgment on his part. In the end, it was a quality run that many people, who have never even seen a speed run before, enjoyed, and just from the vast quantity of discussions I've heard pertaining to the run, the enjoyment was not diminished by the use of scripts, if anything it made the run look more impressive.

Hope you know a good yoga studio or have a good steak knife :p

I believe there's many more people like xsite among the millions of viewers of A-class scripted speedruns, they're just not going to be bothered to create an account and read these forums in detail, let alone actually post.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

SDA has a shitload of rules that can never be enforced. For many games - at a rough guess, I'd say more than half of all games ever made - you could easily segment a run during loading screens and nobody would ever know, and then you could submit the run as a single-segment run. That's an even bigger and easier potential method for cheating than people using autohotkey and claiming they didn't. As has been said before, SDA operates on trust.

That simply isn’t true. Using a simple script or macro program and claiming you used a mouse wheel is as easy taking a run already submitted to SDA, say demonstrate’s portal run, and simple saying he used a mouse wheel. That’s about 1,000,000 times easier than undertaking the herculean task of flawlessly editing a forged video, something which is almost unprecedented and very rarely done by humanity even with million dollar editing studios and camera equipment.

Yes, you may have to operate on trust at some level, but when it’s this easy to cheat it is just plain ridiculous.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

This is at least reasonably close to true. We've already seen that they alienate SDA from the current speedrunning community of Half Life, and it seems quite likely that a lot of the people who have done Source engine game runs using turbo scripts in AutoHotkey will be unhappy with the change too when stuff they were previously using becomes impossible. Only Inexistence has voiced an opinion on this point so far though and he's in favour of the change.

“reasonably close to true”? How about more or less completely true? So far Inexistence is the only runner affected by the rule change that’s in favor of it; however, he makes his runs with a team and his team has alienated themselves from SDA already. He also is trying to think of every way he can to possibly circumvent the rules.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

The talk about 'top' speedrunners makes as little sense as the talk about being 'elite' back in the other thread; only a handful of people have ever even tried speedrunning the game so exactly what set of people are the objectors supposedly 'top' of, and why?

By “top speedrunners for games with scripts” I mean people capable of produces A-class speedruns for the games the new rules will affect. I don’t know why you get so hung up on the semantics of words. Would you prefer I use the acronym PCOPAS, for people capable of producing A-class speedruns instead of “top” or “elite”?

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

You have no idea of the broader picture of what's possible, even for Half Life, the game you run, because you've refused to even experiment with more complex scripting for reasons of your own and have basically chosen to believe that it is impossible to usefully use any scripts that weren't in your old run without even thinking about the possibilities or testing anything.

For someone complaining about assuming falsehoods to be true you sure do it a lot. How would you have any idea what experimenting I’ve done with scripts. I’d be willing to wager I’ve spent more time investing the potential use of scripts in HL than anyone else in the universe. I’ve spent countless hours making and trying new scripts and pushing the limits of scripting as high as they can go. I’ve never said it was impossible to automate sections of HL better than a human could. I’ve said it’s EXTREMELY hard, and can’t be used for very long segments due to desyncing, yet there is some potential, that’s why I think there needs to be limits put on scripts which I have detailed multiple times in multiple threads.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Most people disagree with you […]

I’d argue that most people who the new rules will affect agree with me. So far only one person of this group disagrees and he’s a bit of mystery as the team he works with doesn’t see eye to eye with him and he’ll do everything he can to circumvent the rules.

Generally speaking there are about 15 people who have voiced in favor of banning all scripts, all of which regulars at SDA with pre-established accounts who read the forums regularly. Of these, 0-2 possibly understand the relation between scripts and the communities of gamers which use them, thus their opinions are those of viewers if even, among the millions of viewers who don’t voice their opinions. And because these people are the most vocal, this is why mike’s opinion is what it is. I’d think generally speaking viewers want to see more scripts if anything due the polling results of my TAS-run versus segmented run versus OSPL run versus SS run thread and the very fact that TASes get roughly 10 times the views as regular speedruns.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Stop insulting people without provocation simply because you disagree with them.

Who did I insult in this thread and what was the insult?

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Stop saying things that you know aren't true

I’ve never said anything I know isn’t true, what do you think I said that I know isn’t true?

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Stop laughably referring yourself as an 'elite' or 'top' runner as a way of trying to close other people out of the discussion and try to make out that they do not have the knowledge or experience of the issue required to understand the debate or contribute meaningfully to it when this is plainly not true.

Again, I’ll change ‘elite’ or ‘top’ to PCOPAS if that helps. I use this not to suggest that these people can’t contribute anything meaningful, but rather their opinions are those of viewers if even, of which there are millions. However there’s only a handful of PCOPASs, and these are the people that actually contribute to SDA with the runs that are viewed by the millions viewers, thus I think their opinions should be weighted several times more important to SDA.

Bottom line, these new rules alienate SDA from the communities of people that make SDA’s most popular runs; no longer will they make new runes for SDA. However, eliminating grandfather clauses and scripting does have some appeal. I think I know a solution that would be good for both SDA and the communities that are good to SDA (doubly good for SDA)

Allow the grandfather claussed games to exist as separate entities from SDA just like quake.

This has worked very well for quake for 13 or more years and nothing bad has come from it. I’ve yet to hear an argument against this solution, but I’m sure about I’m about to hear some pathetic attempts at arguments from people who don’t even fully understand why they’re trying to ~~construct their arguments~~ oppose this.

The only argument of any value I can possibly see is the unavoidable slippery slope. To make this slope less slippery, and I’m not talking static friction level, more like van der waals force level. I’d suggest a rule which only allows separate entities to be created for games and their respective mods/level packs which already have grandfather clauses.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Show me a single example of someone new to SDA actually coming along to the forum and posting to say that they enjoyed your run more because it had scripts in it, and I will eat my own epenis.[/quote]
[quote="xsite"] The fact of the matter is that the 30 minute HL run is an iconic speed run that introduced numerous people to SDA for the first time (myself included), and that was made possible due to an exception that Radix made, and one would be hard pressed to argue that it was poor judgment on his part. In the end, it was a quality run that many people, who have never even seen a speed run before, enjoyed, and just from the vast quantity of discussions I've heard pertaining to the run, the enjoyment was not diminished by the use of scripts, if anything it made the run look more impressive.[/quote]
Hope you know a good yoga studio or have a good steak knife :p

I believe there's many more people like xsite among the millions of viewers of A-class scripted speedruns, they're just not going to be bothered to create an account and read these forums in detail, let alone actually post.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]SDA has a shitload of rules that can never be enforced. For many games - at a rough guess, I'd say more than half of all games ever made - you could easily segment a run during loading screens and nobody would ever know, and then you could submit the run as a single-segment run. That's an even bigger and easier potential method for cheating than people using autohotkey and claiming they didn't. As has been said before, SDA operates on trust. [/quote]
That simply isn’t true.  Using a simple script or macro program and claiming you used a mouse wheel is as easy taking a run already submitted to SDA, say demonstrate’s portal run, and simple saying he used a mouse wheel.  That’s about 1,000,000 times easier than undertaking the herculean task of flawlessly editing a forged video, something which is almost unprecedented and very rarely done by humanity even with million dollar editing studios and camera equipment.

Yes, you may have to operate on trust at some level, but when it’s this easy to cheat it is just plain ridiculous.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]This is at least reasonably close to true. We've already seen that they alienate SDA from the current speedrunning community of Half Life, and it seems quite likely that a lot of the people who have done Source engine game runs using turbo scripts in AutoHotkey will be unhappy with the change too when stuff they were previously using becomes impossible. Only Inexistence has voiced an opinion on this point so far though and he's in favour of the change. [/quote]

“reasonably close to true”?  How about more or less completely true?  So far Inexistence is the only runner affected by the rule change that’s in favor of it; however, he makes his runs with a team and his team has alienated themselves from SDA already.  He also is trying to think of every way he can to possibly circumvent the rules.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]The talk about 'top' speedrunners makes as little sense as the talk about being 'elite' back in the other thread; only a handful of people have ever even tried speedrunning the game so exactly what set of people are the objectors supposedly 'top' of, and why? [/quote]
By “top speedrunners for games with scripts” I mean people capable of produces A-class speedruns for the games the new rules will affect.  I don’t know why you get so hung up on the semantics of words.  Would you prefer I use the acronym PCOPAS, for people capable of producing A-class speedruns instead of “top” or “elite”?

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]You have no idea of the broader picture of what's possible, even for Half Life, the game you run, because you've refused to even experiment with more complex scripting for reasons of your own and have basically chosen to believe that it is impossible to usefully use any scripts that weren't in your old run without even thinking about the possibilities or testing anything. [/quote]

For someone complaining about assuming falsehoods to be true you sure do it a lot.  How would you have any idea what experimenting I’ve done with scripts.  I’d be willing to wager I’ve spent more time investing the potential use of scripts in HL than anyone else in the universe.  I’ve spent countless hours making and trying new scripts and pushing the limits of scripting as high as they can go.  I’ve never said it was impossible to automate sections of HL better than a human could.  I’ve said it’s EXTREMELY hard, and can’t be used for very long segments due to desyncing, yet there is some potential, that’s why I think there needs to be limits put on scripts which I have detailed  multiple times in multiple threads.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Most people disagree with you […][/quote]
I’d argue that most people who the new rules will affect agree with me.  So far only one person of this group disagrees and he’s a bit of mystery as the team he works with doesn’t see eye to eye with him and he’ll do everything he can to circumvent the rules.

Generally speaking there are about 15 people who have voiced in favor of banning all scripts, all of which regulars at SDA with pre-established accounts who read the forums regularly.   Of these, 0-2 possibly understand the relation between scripts and the communities of gamers which use them, thus their opinions are those of viewers if even, among the millions of viewers who don’t voice their opinions.  And because these people are the most vocal, this is why mike’s opinion is what it is.  I’d think generally speaking viewers want to see more scripts if anything due the polling results of my TAS-run versus segmented run versus OSPL run versus SS run thread and the very fact that TASes get roughly 10 times the views as regular speedruns.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Stop insulting people without provocation simply because you disagree with them. [/quote]
Who did I insult in this thread and what was the insult?

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Stop saying things that you know aren't true[/quote]
I’ve never said anything I know isn’t true, what do you think I said that I know isn’t true?

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Stop laughably referring yourself as an 'elite' or 'top' runner as a way of trying to close other people out of the discussion and try to make out that they do not have the knowledge or experience of the issue required to understand the debate or contribute meaningfully to it when this is plainly not true. [/quote]
Again, I’ll change ‘elite’ or ‘top’ to PCOPAS if that helps.  I use this not to suggest that these people can’t contribute anything meaningful, but rather their opinions are those of viewers if even, of which there are millions.  However there’s only a handful of PCOPASs, and these are the people that actually contribute to SDA with the runs that are viewed by the millions viewers, thus I think their opinions should be weighted several times more important to SDA.

Bottom line, these new rules alienate SDA from the communities of people that make SDA’s most popular runs; no longer will they make new runes for SDA.  However, eliminating grandfather clauses and scripting does have some appeal.  I think I know a solution that would be good for both SDA and the communities that are good to SDA (doubly good for SDA)

[u][i][b]Allow the grandfather claussed games to exist as separate entities from SDA just like quake.
[/b][/i][/u]
This has worked very well for quake for 13 or more years and nothing bad has come from it.  I’ve yet to hear an argument against this solution, but I’m sure about I’m about to hear some pathetic attempts at arguments from people who don’t even fully understand why they’re trying to [s]construct their arguments[/s] oppose this.

The only argument of any value I can possibly see is the unavoidable slippery slope.  To make this slope less slippery, and I’m not talking static friction level, more like van der waals force level.  I’d suggest a rule which only allows separate entities to be created for games and their respective mods/level packs which already have grandfather clauses.

tomatobob

2010-10-15 03:45:27 pm

Quote from bebeDesigner:

So who cares? spider waffle is a well known person here. He cannot be more famous. he makes a decision.

Make exceptions for all famous people. They deserve it, they're famous.

Pootrain

2010-10-15 03:50:47 pm

train kept rollin

Quote:

That’s about 1,000,000 times easier than undertaking the herculean task of flawlessly editing a forged video, something which is almost unprecedented and very rarely done by humanity even with million dollar editing studios and camera equipment.

Yeah its really hard to cut two black screens together, Thats what ruined avatar for me despite their gajillion dollar budget.

ShadowWraith

2010-10-15 03:54:29 pm

.

I certainly do not agree with Spider-Waffle's post, though he actually articulates his opinion well. I will however say that separating the Half-Life speedruns (and any other, really) into a separate part of the site like Quake would not work for the simple reason that there is nowhere near enough interest in actually speedrunning those games for it to be worth the extra work and hassle. In the past four years there's been less than five different people working on HL runs.

Quake, on the other hand, has been fairly popular for a variety of people up until about a year ago, and while it has kinda died down, there exists a long history of competition for every single demo. While Half-Life has probably had more competition than most runs on the site, the level of competition comes nowhere near close to that of Quake. This kind of thing would be even worse for other games affected by the scripting rules change.

There's also the fact that Half-Life is not episodic or level based like Quake, nor does it have or require a myriad of different categories for each single level. You've got segmented and SS. That's it. The same goes for Portal, Half-Life 2 and the other games that fall under the grandfather clause.

I certainly do not agree with Spider-Waffle's post, though he actually articulates his opinion well. I will however say that separating the Half-Life speedruns (and any other, really) into a separate part of the site like Quake would not work for the simple reason that there is nowhere near enough interest in actually speedrunning those games for it to be worth the extra work and hassle. In the past four years there's been less than five different people working on HL runs.

Quake, on the other hand, has been fairly popular for a variety of people up until about a year ago, and while it has kinda died down, there exists a long history of competition for every single demo. While Half-Life has probably had more competition than most runs on the site, the level of competition comes nowhere near close to that of Quake. This kind of thing would be even worse for other games affected by the scripting rules change.

There's also the fact that Half-Life is not episodic or level based like Quake, nor does it have or require a myriad of different categories for each single level. You've got segmented and SS. That's it. The same goes for Portal, Half-Life 2 and the other games that fall under the grandfather clause.

Inexistence

2010-10-15 04:28:30 pm

Yes, Inexistence is a word.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

“reasonably close to true”? How about more or less completely true? So far Inexistence is the only runner affected by the rule change that’s in favor of it; however, he makes his runs with a team and his team has alienated themselves from SDA already. He also is trying to think of every way he can to possibly circumvent the rules.

Trying to think of every way I can to circumvent the rules? I pointed out one possible exception to a rule, that might allow for script like automation. I pointed it out, I would never go to that length for it anyway, I like my trusty Windows mouse as it is. In no way is that trying to think of every way I can to circumvent the rules.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

I’d argue that most people who the new rules will affect agree with me. So far only one person of this group disagrees and he’s a bit of mystery as the team he works with doesn’t see eye to eye with him and he’ll do everything he can to circumvent the rules.

The team all posted in a thread about this, and it was decided that we would just not submit our run to SDA, no big deal. If the others in the team wanted to do it no scripts, we would've done. You've basically taken the line "I'm not going to speak for the rest of the SourceRuns team, as I don't on hand have their responses in the thread we made on our forums", and made it that they completely disagree with me. I don't think that's anywhere near a reasonable thought process.

And again, I'm not even attempting to circumvent the rules. I pointed out a possible problem. Any decision we were unsure of for our Episode One run, I would run the question by an SDA admin, just to ensure that it was alright and we wouldn't cross any line. One last time, I am not attempting to circumvent any rules.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]“reasonably close to true”?  How about more or less completely true?  So far Inexistence is the only runner affected by the rule change that’s in favor of it; however, he makes his runs with a team and his team has alienated themselves from SDA already.  He also is trying to think of every way he can to possibly circumvent the rules.[/quote]

Trying to think of every way I can to circumvent the rules? I pointed out [i]one[/i] possible exception to a rule, that might allow for script like automation. I pointed it out, I would never go to that length for it anyway, I like my trusty Windows mouse as it is. In no way is that trying to think of every way I can to circumvent the rules.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]I’d argue that most people who the new rules will affect agree with me.  So far only one person of this group disagrees and he’s a bit of mystery as the team he works with doesn’t see eye to eye with him and he’ll do everything he can to circumvent the rules.[/quote]

The team all posted in a thread about this, and it was [b]decided[/b] that we would just not submit our run to SDA, no big deal. If the others in the team wanted to do it no scripts, we would've done. You've basically taken the line "I'm not going to speak for the rest of the SourceRuns team, as I don't on hand have their responses in the thread we made on our forums", and made it that they completely disagree with me. I don't think that's anywhere near a reasonable thought process.

And again, I'm not even attempting to circumvent the rules. I pointed out a possible problem. Any decision we were unsure of for our Episode One run, I would run the question by an SDA admin, just to ensure that it was alright and we wouldn't cross any line. One last time, [b]I am not attempting to circumvent any rules.[/b]

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-10-15 04:28:32 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

What extra work and hassle? Someone has already volunteered to make the site. The work and hassle argument is incredibly weak. I can't see why the expected activity of the site matters, the runs will be viewed by millions, more than any other run at SDA. What's the matter if there's not much activity, that's just less work and hassle, lol ^^.

ShadowWraith

Edit history:

ShadowWraith: 2010-10-15 04:48:32 pm

2010-10-15 04:43:29 pm

.

I find it extremely hard to believe that SDA would allow someone they are completely unfamiliar with to have server access, even more so given that they've had a pretty bad run-in with exactly that kind of thing in the past.

So... this guy could make his completely external website for you to have your run put up on. SDA doesn't have to make exceptions to their rules, your runs get the publicity you want them to, everyone is happy. Right? >_>

What you're basically asking for is what Half-Life already has. A game page, plus an exception to the rules.