Rudra no Hihou / Treasure of Rudra (SNES)

Zordan

Edit history:

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:15:32 pm

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:15:17 pm

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:15:16 pm

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:15:01 pm

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:13:57 pm

Zordan: 2013-08-20 04:13:55 pm

2013-08-20 04:11:22 pm

Hello!

I am currently finishing a casual run of the game and am enjoying it so much, that I started taking some notes and basic routing.

Does anyone know anything speedrun related about this game?

All I could find was a time for a japanese run that was probably segmented, maybe last save instead of actual game ending and if there is a video I couldn't find it.
I browsed through a handful of FAQs but couldn't find any speedrun specific strategies.

My other question would be if anyone knows, how the core mechanic (the mantra system) was translated. I am currently running the game on emulator with a translation patch. My original idea was to get the basic route down and then do a some attempts before I would switch to the japanese virtual console version (unfortunately there is no official translation at all), just in case I end up with a submittable run. I didn't test, however, how complicated it will be to switch from the translated mantra spells to the japanese symbols, which I assume, are Kanji or a combination of Kanji and Katakana.

Any tips would very much be appreciated.

cheers,
Zordan

Thread title:

Hello!

I am currently finishing a casual run of the game and am enjoying it so much, that I started taking some notes and basic routing.

Does anyone know anything speedrun related about this game?

All I could find was a time for a japanese run that was probably segmented, maybe last save instead of actual game ending and if there is a video I couldn't find it.
I browsed through a handful of FAQs but couldn't find any speedrun specific strategies.

My other question would be if anyone knows, how the core mechanic (the mantra system) was translated. I am currently running the game on emulator with a translation patch. My original idea was to get the basic route down and then do a some attempts before I would switch to the japanese virtual console version (unfortunately there is no official translation at all), just in case I end up with a submittable run. I didn't test, however, how complicated it will be to switch from the translated mantra spells to the japanese symbols, which I assume, are Kanji or a combination of Kanji and Katakana.

Any tips would very much be appreciated.

cheers,
Zordan

Omnigamer

2013-08-20 04:23:47 pm

All the things

If I recall right, the mantra system only uses katakana. The translation has several (if not all) of the best spells using romaji for the katakana, so there's probably a direct transformation between what you're using in the translation and what you'd be using on a JP cart.

I doubt you'd find much in the way of speed guides for the game since it's really obscure, but I think it would be awesome to see a run of it. You'd have to route from scratch, but I think it would be a lot of fun to figure out the best ways to deal with spell management etc. A good place to start is the Mantra system guide on GFAQs, and you can use that to come up with the spells that will help for various parts of the game.

Zordan

2013-08-20 04:40:15 pm

Nice, translating Katakana syllables should be doable

Quote from Omnigamer:

If I recall right, the mantra system only uses katakana. The translation has several (if not all) of the best spells using romaji for the katakana, so there's probably a direct transformation between what you're using in the translation and what you'd be using on a JP cart.

Nice! That sounds actually pretty doable.

I kind of expected there not to be any existing routes, I am up to that (no promises on the results though ^^)

The game has 2 Mantras/Kotodamas that are considered "Cheat Mantra" by the FAQ. Specifically it is a strong hit-all attack and a strong party heal. You enter them the same way you enter any Mantra, but there are no ingame hints to them and they are obviously not balanced (since they only cost a single MP, while all other spells have their cost directly related to their power).
Question: Cheat Code or game element?

Omnigamer

2013-08-20 04:50:43 pm

All the things

That's largely up to the runner to determine. If you can build a route around them, I say go for it. You can examine ways to make the route harder after you have things figured out using the best stuff.

Nitrodon

2013-08-22 12:34:18 am

I don't know the two mantras you're talking about, but those are probably just abuse of game mechanics. While there are two actual cheat mantras in the game, they are nothing like the two you describe.

However, note that mantras are only 6 kana long, so some of the mantras you can fit in 12 letters with the English translation patch won't fit in the original Japanese version.

Zordan

Edit history:

Zordan: 2013-08-24 02:29:09 pm

2013-08-24 02:27:06 pm

@Nitrodon: The mantras I meant were Pegnubulnuus (light element all hit attack with about 500 base damage) and Pebefamegami (group heal with about 500 base value). On a couple of tests they were typically faster than any other combination of mantras.

Yeah I realized, that the japanese Mantra system is actually quite different in a lot of places. In the english translation, there are 3 letter and 2 letter Pre- and Suffixes. Since the elements range from two to four letters. Long story short my basic japanese is not nearly good enough to try and force myself through all this trial and error and I think I will be going just for a run on the english patch.

Aw well.

In regards to the run: I decided to go for a run without the two mantras I mentioned and so far I managed to get through the story without any random encounters and with very little RNG dependence!

The routing so far has been really fun! The mechanics are basically:

1. You can access every skill in the game and are only limited by your MP. These include very nice buffs and debuffs and a 3 MP skill that will let you flee any random encounter. All basic Spells can be tailored to your needs, making them more/less effective for more/less MP or adding a "hit-all" component.

2. Mantras do full damage when your characters are in the second row, but you only take half the damage.

3. MP refill items can be bought from the beginning and are really cheap! All story lines have access to a characters with high base MP pretty early. It is fairly easy to pick up items that increase your max MP without larger detours

4. The battle system has no ATB and you know the order of your characters from the very beginning.

5. The weakness/resistances can be abused nicely. Using the correct elementel armor is more important than it's base stats and the game is usually nice enough to give you easy access to equipment with the right stats before boss encouters.

The key mantras with which I have been experimenting so far were:

KAA-, UV-, ON- Prefixes and -GOD suffixes: The most cost effitient mantras to increase strength of a mantra.

-REEM: Elemental protection, cuts damage from one element in half.

-NA: Cheapest "hit-all" suffix. Has to be added before -REEM if used in combination.

Pikugazero/: Significantly lowers the MagicDef of an enemy

Suna/Banish/Protect: Raises Spirit/Defense/magic defense for the whole party.

And that's basically it. I think that with the right setup I should be able to kill every Boss in the game, without any grinding.

I will test a run through for all required encounters in the next couple of days. If this works out all I have to do is practise menuing and learn all the dungeon/town paths and I can start actual attempts. Smiley

cheers,
Zordan

@Nitrodon: The mantras I meant were Pegnubulnuus (light element all hit attack with about 500 base damage) and Pebefamegami (group heal with about 500 base value). On a couple of tests they were typically faster than any other combination of mantras.

Yeah I realized, that the japanese Mantra system is actually quite different in a lot of places. In the english translation, there are 3 letter and 2 letter Pre- and Suffixes. Since the elements range from two to four letters. Long story short my basic japanese is not nearly good enough to try and force myself through all this trial and error and I think I will be going just for a run on the english patch.

Aw well.

In regards to the run: I decided to go for a run without the two mantras I mentioned and so far I managed to get through the story without any random encounters and with very little RNG dependence!

The routing so far has been really fun! The mechanics are basically:

1. You can access every skill in the game and are only limited by your MP. These include very nice buffs and debuffs and a 3 MP skill that will let you flee any random encounter. All basic Spells can be tailored to your needs, making them more/less effective for more/less MP or adding a "hit-all" component.

2. Mantras do full damage when your characters are in the second row, but you only take half the damage.

3. MP refill items can be bought from the beginning and are really cheap! All story lines have access to a characters with high base MP pretty early. It is fairly easy to pick up items that increase your max MP without larger detours

4. The battle system has no ATB and you know the order of your characters from the very beginning.

5. The weakness/resistances can be abused nicely. Using the correct elementel armor is more important than it's base stats and the game is usually nice enough to give you easy access to equipment with the right stats before boss encouters.

The key mantras with which I have been experimenting so far were:

KAA-, UV-, ON- Prefixes and -GOD suffixes: The most cost effitient mantras to increase strength of a mantra.

-REEM: Elemental protection, cuts damage from one element in half.

-NA: Cheapest "hit-all" suffix. Has to be added before -REEM if used in combination.

Pikugazero/: Significantly lowers the MagicDef of an enemy

Suna/Banish/Protect: Raises Spirit/Defense/magic defense for the whole party.

And that's basically it. I think that with the right setup I should be able to kill every Boss in the game, without any grinding.

I will test a run through for all required encounters in the next couple of days. If this works out all I have to do is practise menuing and learn all the dungeon/town paths and I can start actual attempts. :)

cheers,
Zordan

Nitrodon

2013-08-24 04:46:59 pm

I don't think either of those mantras will fit in Japanese. The first one needs 8 characters in Japanese, while the second needs 7 characters. Powerful 1 MP mantras can be made in Japanese, but they're less powerful than the ones you can make in English.

Note that PEACE accepts MP-reducing prefixes, so FAPEACE does the same thing for 1 MP. While FAPEACE also works in the Japanese version, BEPEPEACE also costs 1 MP and is probably faster to input there.

UV- (+4 MP, +26 power) doesn't seem to be a cost-efficient prefix, but perhaps I'm missing something.

NachoYacopu

Edit history:

NachoYacopu: 2014-09-04 04:37:53 pm

2014-09-04 04:37:07 pm

T r i P T e a M

Yo, hi everyone. I'm in the same boat as Zordan - I started playing this game casually, loved it and decided I wanted to speedrun it, so figured I'd post here (would have done it before but SDA disabled non-account posting and I was lazy). And I always wanted to speedrun an RPG, but could never find the "right" one, until I found this.

Anyway, good news are, someone already did a TON of work researching this game - this includes a whole route for RTAs so definitely check it out.

http://www.geocities.jp/white_fake/rudra/

There's not only a route (with a full video on nico) but also data on all enemies (including stats and their "AI" if you will).

So far I've only played through Sion's Scenario. The route is pretty straightforward: run way from all random encounters (either with mantras or the escape command), early boss fights are usually done just by spamming the appropiate damage mantra, while later on you'll need to buff/debuff for a turn or two before starting the onslaught. Know the bosses AI so you can know how to attack and dodge their most deadly attacks and you're set.

I'm playing in the original J version, where you can create some pretty powerful 1MP mantras, and when you're properly buffed (and the enemies are properly debuffed) they can deal a lot of damage. They're all on that website I linked earlier.

I'm also toying with the idea of doing a segmented run, since a quick RAM search told me how random encounters are triggered and I could eventually bruteforce segments with the minimum amount of them (plus best patterns on boss fights).

Anyway I mostly just wanted to drop that link up there because I think its a fantastic resource (he also has done researches for lots of other SNES RPG cult classics such as Live-a-Live and Romancing SaGa 3) and I wanted to share it with people. For now I'll just stick to doing single scenario RTAs and maybe one day tackle a whole game RTA (would be around 7~ hours though), and maybe a segmented run, who knows?

Cheers.

edit: also sorry for the thread necro but I figured it would be better than just creating a new thread, forgive me if I was wrong I'm not familiar with the forum rules.

Yo, hi everyone. I'm in the same boat as Zordan - I started playing this game casually, loved it and decided I wanted to speedrun it, so figured I'd post here (would have done it before but SDA disabled non-account posting and I was lazy). And I always wanted to speedrun an RPG, but could never find the "right" one, until I found this.

Anyway, good news are, someone already did a TON of work researching this game - this includes a whole route for RTAs so definitely check it out.

http://www.geocities.jp/white_fake/rudra/

There's not only a route (with a full video on nico) but also data on all enemies (including stats and their "AI" if you will).

So far I've only played through Sion's Scenario. The route is pretty straightforward: run way from all random encounters (either with mantras or the escape command), early boss fights are usually done just by spamming the appropiate damage mantra, while later on you'll need to buff/debuff for a turn or two before starting the onslaught. Know the bosses AI so you can know how to attack and dodge their most deadly attacks and you're set.

I'm playing in the original J version, where you can create some pretty powerful 1MP mantras, and when you're properly buffed (and the enemies are properly debuffed) they can deal a lot of damage. They're all on that website I linked earlier.

I'm also toying with the idea of doing a segmented run, since a quick RAM search told me how random encounters are triggered and I could eventually bruteforce segments with the minimum amount of them (plus best patterns on boss fights).

Anyway I mostly just wanted to drop that link up there because I think its a fantastic resource (he also has done researches for lots of other SNES RPG cult classics such as Live-a-Live and Romancing SaGa 3) and I wanted to share it with people. For now I'll just stick to doing single scenario RTAs and maybe one day tackle a whole game RTA (would be around 7~ hours though), and maybe a segmented run, who knows?

Cheers.

edit: also sorry for the thread necro but I figured it would be better than just creating a new thread, forgive me if I was wrong I'm not familiar with the forum rules.

NachoYacopu

2014-10-20 07:59:17 pm

T r i P T e a M

Alright so I took upon my own hands to speedrun this. I "translated" some of the notes to the best of my knowledge (thanks google translate) and just played around with savestates and RAM searches/watches to fill in the gaps to help me understand better how the game works.

As I said I'm focusing on single scenario glitchless runs - I picked up Sion's first because its probably the easiest to speedrun. And yesterday I finally reached my sub 2 goal for this scenario (http://www.twitch.tv/nachoyacopu/c/5325580 if anyone wants to watch). Riza's is next!

Anyway a friend has also expressed interest in learning this same so I started working on a speedrun route doc in english (its mostly a translation from white_fake route, lets be fair here), that will hopefully bring more attention to this game because its a really fun speedrun and very easy to get into (for an RPG) (after you get past the first 3 mins of punching in your mantras).

Cheers.

Nitrodon

2014-10-28 03:34:18 pm

Here's my spreadsheet with every mantra in the game (original and AGTP patch).

Length: Self-explanatory.

Base effect, prefix effect: Don't worry about these.

Prefix inheritance: Attributes that the prefix tries to replace.
- Targeting: Whether the attack is single- or multi-target.
- Element: Self-explanatory.
- Power: Also includes accuracy.
- MP cost: Not included in the spreadsheet, since no prefixes try to cause MP inheritance.
- Other: Everything else.

Prefix adjustments: Numbers added to the mantra power and MP (after inheritance).

Base inheritance: Attributes that a prefix is allowed to replace. (Note that this byte itself is replaced if "Other" is inherited from a prefix.)

Element: Self-explanatory.

Status: Status caused by mantra.
- Attack up/down: +50%/-50%
- Accuracy/evasion up/down: +100%/-50%
- Def/mdef up/down: +96/-96
- Elemental statuses automatically change if you change the element of a mantra.

Stat effect: Stat affected by buff/debuff mantra.

Power: Power of the mantra. See damage formula.

Accuracy: Used only for instant death mantras, I think.

Damage formula: Base damage/healing/buff/debuff before modifiers.
- 0: I'm not sure.
- 3: spirit + power
- 5: some invisible stat + power (used for healing mantras)
- 6: spirit/2 + power*2

Targeting: Self-explanatory.

MP cost: Self-explanatory.

Type: This determines how prefixes affect the mantra.
- 0: If the prefix has a different but non-opposing element, halve the power adjustment. If the prefix has an opposing element, just halve power and adjust MP. If prefix and current mantra share an element, or either is non-elemental, adjust and replace stats like normal.
- 1 and 3: Adjust and replace stats like normal.
- 2: Don't adjust stats, just replace.

Effect: "(air)", "(earth)", and "(water)" mean the effect is halved if the air, earth, or water isn't purified. The rest should be self-explanatory.

Animation: Self-explanatory.

Here's my spreadsheet with every mantra in the game (original and AGTP patch).

[spoiler="Explanation of columns"]Length: Self-explanatory.

Base effect, prefix effect: Don't worry about these.

Prefix inheritance: Attributes that the prefix tries to replace.
 - Targeting: Whether the attack is single- or multi-target.
 - Element: Self-explanatory.
 - Power: Also includes accuracy.
 - MP cost: Not included in the spreadsheet, since no prefixes try to cause MP inheritance.
 - Other: Everything else.

Prefix adjustments: Numbers added to the mantra power and MP (after inheritance).

Base inheritance: Attributes that a prefix is allowed to replace.  (Note that this byte itself is replaced if "Other" is inherited from a prefix.)

Element: Self-explanatory.

Status: Status caused by mantra.
 - Attack up/down: +50%/-50%
 - Accuracy/evasion up/down: +100%/-50%
 - Def/mdef up/down: +96/-96
 - Elemental statuses automatically change if you change the element of a mantra.

Stat effect: Stat affected by buff/debuff mantra.

Power: Power of the mantra.  See damage formula.

Accuracy: Used only for instant death mantras, I think.

Damage formula: Base damage/healing/buff/debuff before modifiers.
 - 0: I'm not sure.
 - 3: spirit + power
 - 5: some invisible stat + power (used for healing mantras)
 - 6: spirit/2 + power*2

Targeting: Self-explanatory.

MP cost: Self-explanatory.

Type: This determines how prefixes affect the mantra.
 - 0: If the prefix has a different but non-opposing element, halve the power adjustment.  If the prefix has an opposing element, just halve power and adjust MP.  If prefix and current mantra share an element, or either is non-elemental, adjust and replace stats like normal.
 - 1 and 3: Adjust and replace stats like normal.
 - 2: Don't adjust stats, just replace.

Effect: "(air)", "(earth)", and "(water)" mean the effect is halved if the air, earth, or water isn't purified.  The rest should be self-explanatory.

Animation: Self-explanatory.[/spoiler]

Attachment:

Mantra list.ods

ConaRikan

2014-10-29 03:47:44 am

Not sure if Nitrodon mentioned it, but Aeon Genesis (who I think abbreviate as AGTP) make translation patches for Japanese-only releases. They did make a translation of Rudra no Hihou, and even managed to get the mantra system working with english characters. Problem is, the patch must be applied to a ROM of the game. ZSNES does automatically apply the patch, thankfully.

NachoYacopu

2014-10-29 09:31:08 am

T r i P T e a M

Quote from Nitrodon:

Here's my spreadsheet with every mantra in the game (original and AGTP patch).

Siiiiick! Thanks a bunch.

P.S.: Man that's a lot of mantras.

Quote from ConaRikan:

Not sure if Nitrodon mentioned it, but Aeon Genesis (who I think abbreviate as AGTP) make translation patches for Japanese-only releases. They did make a translation of Rudra no Hihou, and even managed to get the mantra system working with english characters. Problem is, the patch must be applied to a ROM of the game. ZSNES does automatically apply the patch, thankfully.

Yeah, my first (casual) playthrough was done using the patch. It is a very good patch overall (and it is particularly impressive how they managed to redo the entire mantra system) but for speedruns I believe the original version is far better, and not only because of the good old "japanese text is faster". You only really need to learn some Katakana characters to enscribe your mantras and to identify some items/pieces of equipment and you're set.

Anyway the route thing I'm doing is almost done - I need to double test strats and fill in some blanks and then I could post it somewhere for people to read and never actually learn the game.

Cheers.

[quote="Nitrodon"]Here's my spreadsheet with every mantra in the game (original and AGTP patch).[/quote]

Siiiiick! Thanks a bunch.

P.S.: Man that's a lot of mantras.

[quote="ConaRikan"]Not sure if Nitrodon mentioned it, but Aeon Genesis (who I think abbreviate as AGTP) make translation patches for Japanese-only releases.  They did make a translation of Rudra no Hihou, and even managed to get the mantra system working with english characters.  Problem is, the patch must be applied to a ROM of the game.  ZSNES does automatically apply the patch, thankfully.[/quote]

Yeah, my first (casual) playthrough was done using the patch. It is a very good patch overall (and it is particularly impressive how they managed to redo the entire mantra system) but for speedruns I believe the original version is far better, and not only because of the good old "japanese text is faster". You only really need to learn some Katakana characters to enscribe your mantras and to identify some items/pieces of equipment and you're set.

Anyway the route thing I'm doing is almost done - I need to double test strats and fill in some blanks and then I could post it somewhere for people to read and never actually learn the game.

Cheers.

NachoYacopu

2014-11-05 12:01:50 am

T r i P T e a M

Alright so heres what I hope, its a good enough guide/route to speedrun Sion's Scenario (first public version I guess):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJkscnbii9Opdar8zdyeBeFZWA6jCxIW4qx5qInDQPc/edit?usp=sharing

Please (and I mean it), point out any mistakes you see - any constructive criticism will be greatly appreciated - I tried to make the whole thing as easy to understand and to get into as possible while still explaining everything you need to know to speedrun this game.

And also (once again), 99% of this is fake_white's work. So if you like it, throw your praises at him, and if theres something wrong, it was probably me messing up something during translation Kappa.

Hausen

2014-11-10 02:19:27 pm

That was IMPRESSIVE. Poor boss mobs getting ripped apart in just a few turns, did not expect that kinda slaughter. A little frightening too, if as you say you don't actually even speak Japanese... I guess you get used to katakana after a while practicing all the mantra inputs. And it's neat how most item names actually seem to flow into english in a sort of coherent fashion (Muunringu > Moon Ring, Chuunmeiru > Chain Mail etc.) making them that much easier to recognize on the fly.

Anyway even if white_fake had done most of the planning, still an effort to put it all together in practice. GJ so far

I'm curious about whole game runs and the order you'd want to do the scenarios. Like you say it would probably drive anyone insane (random battles..), running it all one go, but a 3-4 segmented full run wouldn't be too bad.

Do you know if there are meaningful choices in any of the scenarios that would affect playtime in others? Blade/shield trade is of course one thing, but you get to make that choice no matter what. Other than that it would be interesting to know if anything you do for example on Surlent's scenario might shorten or alter cutscenes in Riza's scenario etc...

Another interesting thing to have would be an explanation on the combat formulas. White_fake has a section on that on his site I think, but google is unable to translate those golden nuggets of information into anything other than garbage unfortunately.

That was IMPRESSIVE. Poor boss mobs getting ripped apart in just a few turns, did not expect that kinda slaughter. A little frightening too, if as you say you don't actually even speak Japanese... I guess you get used to katakana after a while practicing all the mantra inputs. And it's neat how most item names actually seem to flow into english in a sort of coherent fashion (Muunringu > Moon Ring, Chuunmeiru > Chain Mail etc.) making them that much easier to recognize on the fly.

Anyway even if white_fake had done most of the planning, still an effort to put it all together in practice. GJ so far

I'm curious about whole game runs and the order you'd want to do the scenarios. Like you say it would probably drive anyone insane (random battles..), running it all one go, but a 3-4 segmented full run wouldn't be too bad.

Do you know if there are meaningful choices in any of the scenarios that would affect playtime in others? Blade/shield trade is of course one thing, but you get to make that choice no matter what. Other than that it would be interesting to know if anything you do for example on Surlent's scenario might shorten or alter cutscenes in Riza's scenario etc...

Another interesting thing to have would be an explanation on the combat formulas. White_fake has a section on that on his site I think, but google is unable to translate those golden nuggets of information into anything other than garbage unfortunately.

NachoYacopu

2014-11-12 04:36:50 am

T r i P T e a M

Quote from Hausen:

That was IMPRESSIVE. Poor boss mobs getting ripped apart in just a few turns, did not expect that kinda slaughter. A little frightening too, if as you say you don't actually even speak Japanese... I guess you get used to katakana after a while practicing all the mantra inputs. And it's neat how most item names actually seem to flow into english in a sort of coherent fashion (Muunringu > Moon Ring, Chuunmeiru > Chain Mail etc.) making them that much easier to recognize on the fly.

Anyway even if white_fake had done most of the planning, still an effort to put it all together in practice. GJ so far

Thank you, I appreciate it. Yes, I know no japanese, I just learned enough katakana to help me speedrun this game -- to be honest I just recognize some key characters whenever I need to (such as "I know I need to equip a Moon Ring now, so I go to the equip menu, and I look for rings and the one that has a name that starts with the MU kata - that's the one I need"). In my head I always keep the names of everything and knowing those key characters is what gets me through.

Quote:

I'm curious about whole game runs and the order you'd want to do the scenarios. Like you say it would probably drive anyone insane (random battles..), running it all one go, but a 3-4 segmented full run wouldn't be too bad.

Eventually I would like to do at least one full game (glitchless) run, just going through all scenarios and then going through the final one and beating the game. Random encounters suck but they're a part of JRPGs so you just have to suck up and deal with them pretty much.

The order in which you do scenarios though, that's important - fake_white does Surlent's scenario last. The thing to keep in mind, is that whatever scenario you do last, you carry over that character's entire inventory towards the final's scenario. I haven't really looked up at fake_white's entire run (too focused theorycrafting Sion's route) but I believe he does Surlent last because he picks up some extra items during his scenario to use eventually before the Mitra encounter - mainly equipment and Magic/Life leaves (not sure though).

Quote:

Do you know if there are meaningful choices in any of the scenarios that would affect playtime in others? Blade/shield trade is of course one thing, but you get to make that choice no matter what. Other than that it would be interesting to know if anything you do for example on Surlent's scenario might shorten or alter cutscenes in Riza's scenario etc...

Afaik the trade in the town of Tarach is the one big thing that really has an impact on the run overall (not trading lets you just suicide yourself against Hausen and still "beat" the scenario) - I think everything else is just minor flavor stuff (like who do you pick up first when you die as Surlent changes who do you see when you're playing through Riza's scenario but that's just a minor thing).

Quote:

Another interesting thing to have would be an explanation on the combat formulas. White_fake has a section on that on his site I think, but google is unable to translate those golden nuggets of information into anything other than garbage unfortunately.

Oh yes, his site is a gold mine. I dug through pages and JS scripts and got some basic info (such as the way def/Mdef works and also learned that some weapon-types are "super-effective" against some mob types - I had no idea) but no concrete formulas. I guess that if people really wanted to I could try to crack down and translate the whole thing (because the whole site is a damn goldmine, seriously).

Also, shoutouts to Nitrodon because his improved elemental protection mantras are sick and I'm implementing them into the route. I'm gonna do a few more Sion scenario runs and maybe I'll get a better time - thanks to a few savestated runs I did let I learned Sion's scenario can go sub 1:50 (crazy time) but I'd need some crazy luck (ugh) and menuing (I'm bad at this). We'll see though.

Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to. This eventually lets you skip like one scenario and a half, and its a fucking crazy run. There's a route already but it uses a few "cheat" mantras (to do stuff like eliminate all random encounters and make every mantra cost 1 MP), so eventually I'd like to route this trainwreck of a run without those cheat mantras. But first, I gotta do the glitchless stuff. I really want to figure out the glitched run though because its crazy and I'm sure that it will blow people's minds (especially to those who played the game normally and see what happens to your party in the end). It will be done eventually though, I'm sure of it.

So that's it for now - now I need to practice my mantras. Cheers!

[quote="Hausen"]That was IMPRESSIVE. Poor boss mobs getting ripped apart in just a few turns, did not expect that kinda slaughter. A little frightening too, if as you say you don't actually even speak Japanese... I guess you get used to katakana after a while practicing all the mantra inputs. And it's neat how most item names actually seem to flow into english in a sort of coherent fashion (Muunringu > Moon Ring, Chuunmeiru > Chain Mail etc.) making them that much easier to recognize on the fly.

Anyway even if white_fake had done most of the planning, still an effort to put it all together in practice. GJ so far[/quote]

Thank you, I appreciate it. Yes, I know no japanese, I just learned enough katakana to help me speedrun this game -- to be honest I just recognize some key characters whenever I need to (such as "I know I need to equip a Moon Ring now, so I go to the equip menu, and I look for rings and the one that has a name that starts with the MU kata - that's the one I need"). In my head I always keep the names of everything and knowing those key characters is what gets me through.

[quote]I'm curious about whole game runs and the order you'd want to do the scenarios. Like you say it would probably drive anyone insane (random battles..), running it all one go, but a 3-4 segmented full run wouldn't be too bad.[/quote]

Eventually I would like to do at least one full game (glitchless) run, just going through all scenarios and then going through the final one and beating the game. Random encounters suck but they're a part of JRPGs so you just have to suck up and deal with them pretty much.

The order in which you do scenarios though, that's important - fake_white does Surlent's scenario last. The thing to keep in mind, is that whatever scenario you do last, you carry over that character's entire inventory towards the final's scenario. I haven't really looked up at fake_white's entire run (too focused theorycrafting Sion's route) but I believe he does Surlent last because he picks up some extra items during his scenario to use eventually before the Mitra encounter - mainly equipment and Magic/Life leaves (not sure though).

[quote]Do you know if there are meaningful choices in any of the scenarios that would affect playtime in others? Blade/shield trade is of course one thing, but you get to make that choice no matter what. Other than that it would be interesting to know if anything you do for example on Surlent's scenario might shorten or alter cutscenes in Riza's scenario etc...[/quote]

Afaik the trade in the town of Tarach is the one big thing that really has an impact on the run overall (not trading lets you just suicide yourself against Hausen and still "beat" the scenario) - I think everything else is just minor flavor stuff (like who do you pick up first when you die as Surlent changes who do you see when you're playing through Riza's scenario but that's just a minor thing).

[quote]Another interesting thing to have would be an explanation on the combat formulas. White_fake has a section on that on his site I think, but google is unable to translate those golden nuggets of information into anything other than garbage unfortunately.[/quote]

Oh yes, his site is a gold mine. I dug through pages and JS scripts and got some basic info (such as the way def/Mdef works and also learned that some weapon-types are "super-effective" against some mob types - I had no idea) but no concrete formulas. I guess that if people really wanted to I could try to crack down and translate the whole thing (because the whole site is a damn goldmine, seriously).

Also, shoutouts to Nitrodon because his improved elemental protection mantras are sick and I'm implementing them into the route. I'm gonna do a few more Sion scenario runs and maybe I'll get a better time - thanks to a few savestated runs I did let I learned Sion's scenario can go sub 1:50 (crazy time) but I'd need some crazy luck (ugh) and menuing (I'm bad at this). We'll see though.

Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to. This eventually lets you skip like one scenario and a half, and its a fucking crazy run. There's a route already but it uses a few "cheat" mantras (to do stuff like eliminate all random encounters and make every mantra cost 1 MP), so eventually I'd like to route this trainwreck of a run without those cheat mantras. But first, I gotta do the glitchless stuff. I really want to figure out the glitched run though because its crazy and I'm sure that it will blow people's minds (especially to those who played the game normally and see what happens to your party in the end). It will be done eventually though, I'm sure of it.

So that's it for now - now I need to practice my mantras. Cheers!

Hausen

Edit history:

Hausen: 2014-11-16 04:59:59 am

2014-11-16 03:09:21 am

Quote from NachoYacopu:

Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to....

Damn, care to elaborate? Is it just written down and planned route or are there videos somewhere?

I was watching Nico's Riza/Surlent vids earlier. I recall that you can actually go straight to Oriab harbor->Ompross and don't have to visit Horn Cave at all, you only need to free Pipin from the plant. I'll have to doublecheck to be sure, but that should save a few minutes.

I'm also curious why in that one cutscene in Babel he chose the bottom option (when Garlyle asks why you came to Babel, Riza answers to be seeking her parents/destiny). Does this choice affect something later perhaps?

EDIT: Also why did he take a detour to Mantra Peak right before Statue of Meifa? If you go straight to Karn the boat will be there (might have to see a cutscene with Zeku & exit/re-enter the town for night to change, but should be quicker in the end).

[quote="NachoYacopu"]Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to....[/quote]

Damn, care to elaborate? Is it just written down and planned route or are there videos somewhere?

I was watching Nico's Riza/Surlent vids earlier. I recall that you can actually go straight to Oriab harbor->Ompross and don't have to visit Horn Cave at all, you only need to free Pipin from the plant. I'll have to doublecheck to be sure, but that should save a few minutes.

I'm also curious why in that one cutscene in Babel he chose the bottom option (when Garlyle asks why you came to Babel, Riza answers to be seeking her parents/destiny). Does this choice affect something later perhaps?

EDIT: Also why did he take a detour to Mantra Peak right before Statue of Meifa? If you go straight to Karn the boat will be there (might have to see a cutscene with Zeku & exit/re-enter the town for night to change, but should be quicker in the end).

NachoYacopu

2014-11-21 12:50:18 am

T r i P T e a M

Quote from Hausen:

Quote from NachoYacopu:

Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to....

Damn, care to elaborate? Is it just written down and planned route or are there videos somewhere?

There's a couple of routes out there plus a TAS a just found: http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/13728027

The one thing to notice though, is that this TAS (as well as the routes I found) all use some of the "cheat" mantras to: eliminate random encounters, have no battle animations and make all mantras cost 1 MP. The cheats are eeeh but the TAS is good and lets you see the rest of the glitches in action (warping to the end of Surlent's scenario twice most importantly - check out your final party in Dune's scenario!).

Quote:

I was watching Nico's Riza/Surlent vids earlier. I recall that you can actually go straight to Oriab harbor->Ompross and don't have to visit Horn Cave at all, you only need to free Pipin from the plant. I'll have to doublecheck to be sure, but that should save a few minutes.

I'm also curious why in that one cutscene in Babel he chose the bottom option (when Garlyle asks why you came to Babel, Riza answers to be seeking her parents/destiny). Does this choice affect something later perhaps?

EDIT: Also why did he take a detour to Mantra Peak right before Statue of Meifa? If you go straight to Karn the boat will be there (might have to see a cutscene with Zeku & exit/re-enter the town for night to change, but should be quicker in the end).

I'll be honest and admit I really don't know/remember much about Riza/Surlent scenarios. But I believe there are minor event checks everywhere that you need to activate in order to progress (to make the in-game days go by). The one that really stumped me when I first did a run of Sion's scenario was you actually having to read the sign in Oriab after leaving the hidden forest, else you can't take the boat. There's stuff like this everywhere so most likely if you see someone doing something that seems useless, there's mostly likely a reason (it's needed/it's faster).

About the choices, again, I honestly don't know - probably the second choice results in less dialog? That's my guess as of now.

Also exploring with another glitch led me to this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B27YgsRIQAA_ImG.png

Probably useless for speedruns but still fun.

[quote="Hausen"][quote="NachoYacopu"]Oh! And before I forget, I'm gonna throw out here (since there seems to be some faint interest on it) that there's a "glitched run" that can be done. It involves alternating through two different scenarios, saving+quitting at strategic points to keep a specific flag that lets you use the PEACE (te-ra) mantra when you're not supposed to....[/quote]

Damn, care to elaborate? Is it just written down and planned route or are there videos somewhere?[/quote]

There's a couple of routes out there plus a TAS a just found: http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/13728027

The one thing to notice though, is that this TAS (as well as the routes I found) all use some of the "cheat" mantras to: eliminate random encounters, have no battle animations and make all mantras cost 1 MP. The cheats are eeeh but the TAS is good and lets you see the rest of the glitches in action (warping to the end of Surlent's scenario twice most importantly - check out your final party in Dune's scenario!).

[quote]I was watching Nico's Riza/Surlent vids earlier. I recall that you can actually go straight to Oriab harbor->Ompross and don't have to visit Horn Cave at all, you only need to free Pipin from the plant. I'll have to doublecheck to be sure, but that should save a few minutes.

I'm also curious why in that one cutscene in Babel he chose the bottom option (when Garlyle asks why you came to Babel, Riza answers to be seeking her parents/destiny). Does this choice affect something later perhaps?

EDIT: Also why did he take a detour to Mantra Peak right before Statue of Meifa? If you go straight to Karn the boat will be there (might have to see a cutscene with Zeku & exit/re-enter the town for night to change, but should be quicker in the end).[/quote]

I'll be honest and admit I really don't know/remember much about Riza/Surlent scenarios. But I believe there are minor event checks everywhere that you need to activate in order to progress (to make the in-game days go by). The one that really stumped me when I first did a run of Sion's scenario was you actually having to read the sign in Oriab after leaving the hidden forest, else you can't take the boat. There's stuff like this everywhere so most likely if you see someone doing something that seems useless, there's mostly likely a reason (it's needed/it's faster).

About the choices, again, I honestly don't know - probably the second choice results in less dialog? That's my guess as of now.

Also exploring with another glitch led me to this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B27YgsRIQAA_ImG.png

Probably useless for speedruns but still fun.

NachoYacopu

2014-12-26 04:10:19 am

T r i P T e a M

Hi I learned Riza's scenario:

http://www.twitch.tv/nachoyacopu/c/5738454

There's stil a LOT to improve - my menuing specially is still really bad. After some practice I should be able to reach sub 1:45. Then I guess I'll learn -shudders- Soylent's scenario.

NachoYacopu

2015-01-24 05:24:20 am

T r i P T e a M

Triple post but fakewhite just finished updating his notes:

http://www.geocities.jp/white_fake/rudra/rudrarta.html

I love his new approach to mantras: "yo we have lots of MP so lets just whip out some stronger mantras to save some time".

If anyone cares I will be revisiting Sion's scenario using the new route for a new, better PB (I was -2:00 on a run a few days ago but I died to Rudra, so I could get a sub 1:55, which is my goal) and then I will update my google doc notes to this route.

Omnigamer

2015-01-24 07:50:30 am

All the things

Looking forward to watching as you roll out the runs! Keep it up!

NachoYacopu

Edit history:

NachoYacopu: 2015-01-26 05:36:38 pm

2015-01-26 06:02:31 am

T r i P T e a M

Thank you.

So, I got a 1:53 on Sion's scenario (!!). Unfortunately, OBS decided to be a dick and refused to stream audio, so now I'm obligated to beat (or at least get very close) to this time but with an actually watchable run. At least I know its possible so that's something.

Well scratch that I just got a 1:50 and I got it locally recorded, so now I'm done for good with Sion. Its Soylent's time!

NachoYacopu

2015-02-15 10:33:08 pm

T r i P T e a M

Few quick things.

I did a few Surlent scenario runs, and got a 2:08, beating all times listed in nico rta wiki. http://www.twitch.tv/nachoyacopu/c/6036393
Not a very good run tbh but Surlent scenario sucks massive...ly to speedrun so I really don't want to play it anymore lol.

I also re-translated and updated my public notes for Sion's Scenario. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJkscnbii9Opdar8zdyeBeFZWA6jCxIW4qx5qInDQPc/edit#heading=h.kn97xxzc1e9a

I'm also working on a similar document for Riza's scenario but I somehow lost my updated notes (must have deleted them accidentally) so I gotta retranslate. Hopefully this will get someone else motivated to give this speedgame a try.

Oh and I practiced a bit of the final scenario because someday (when I find the time and stamina to do a 7 hr speedrun) I want to attempt a speedrun of this that actually beats the game. Mitra is actually an extremely challenging (but fun) boss to do optimally, almost as hard as first boss of Surlent's Scenario.

---

Anyway I think I'm gonna try and tackle the glitched run now - it should be a nice 4~ish hours (without the cheat mantras), a decent length I could probably do single-segment without dying while I build endurance to do the big glitchless run. I just need to re-route the end game and figure out how to beat Mitra without all the cool weapons you get on the glitchless route.

Few quick things.

I did a few Surlent scenario runs, and got a 2:08, beating all times listed in nico rta wiki. http://www.twitch.tv/nachoyacopu/c/6036393
Not a very good run tbh but Surlent scenario sucks massive...ly to speedrun so I really don't want to play it anymore lol.

I also re-translated and updated my public notes for Sion's Scenario. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJkscnbii9Opdar8zdyeBeFZWA6jCxIW4qx5qInDQPc/edit#heading=h.kn97xxzc1e9a

I'm also working on a similar document for Riza's scenario but I somehow lost my updated notes (must have deleted them accidentally) so I gotta retranslate. Hopefully this will get someone else motivated to give this speedgame a try.

Oh and I practiced a bit of the final scenario because someday (when I find the time and stamina to do a 7 hr speedrun) I want to attempt a speedrun of this that actually beats the game. Mitra is actually an extremely challenging (but fun) boss to do optimally, almost as hard as first boss of Surlent's Scenario.

---

Anyway I think I'm gonna try and tackle the glitched run now - it should be a nice 4~ish hours (without the cheat mantras), a decent length I could probably do single-segment without dying while I build endurance to do the big glitchless run. I just need to re-route the end game and figure out how to beat Mitra without all the cool weapons you get on the glitchless route.