RPG Speedrun notes (or just notes in general)

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-08-03 12:51:37 pm

2013-08-03 12:45:57 pm

If you have notes, at least you can just start the Wiki, create some headlines (I don't know if there's supposed to be a standard format after the recent revision by Mr. K and others), and try to categorize things if possible (at least "Act 1, Act 2, Act 3..."). How would that ever be worse than not having a page at all? Or having a page missing information that people have actually found?

EDIT
Ah, didn't read rudy's post above...

The2012Robot: You sound a bit critical towards your own thinking yourself towards the end of your post, so I can only say you're going the right direction... If you notice you only wanted the record for the sake of having the record, it's not worth it at all. Can it even be any fun?

The2012Robot

2013-08-03 06:34:47 pm

I run for fun :)

"Can it even be fun at all?"

To run? Not so much anymore. To route? That's still as fun as it ever was. I think I may be scaring people away from running the game (at least SS) with my comments though, not that there are that many people who would want to run TLoD in the first place. On top of posting my notes on the web (can find the link in one of my other posts in this thread), I'm streaming my progress on the guide now that I have a less limited bandwidth cap here: http://www.twitch.tv/the2012robot

XenonZer0

2013-08-04 12:51:59 am

Who needs sleep?

Quote from Hsanrb:

When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

Despite being a pretty new member of the speedrunning community as a whole, I can definitely understand what you mean by this. I'm definitely guilty of some copy/paste running in my games of choice (Chrono Trigger, specifically) but I don't feel that those runs are any less legitimate than the newest innovations in a route. If you want to figure out how to move quickly through the game and perform things like boss skips or what have you, then the ideal methodology would be to emulate the maneuvers between those skips, as they are tried and true.

That said, if someone is going to do copy/paste runs, the least they can do is dig in and figure out why stuff works the way it does. Learn how a glitch functions and then see if that can be applied elsewhere. If it does? Awesome! If not, keep digging. I know I've had a lot of moments where I've looked at something and thought "huh.. why doesn't the run this other person did do xxxxxx?" and then tried it myself to figure it out. It actually feels pretty good to have someone ask "why do you do this thing in particular?" and having a detailed answer other than "the WR does it so I do too."

Plus, sticking to a path and just trying to out-fast someone using their own strats can definitely mean that you've perfected execution, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're capable of bringing the run closer to the lowest possible time.

I feel like I derailed into a completely different topic as I typed, so hopefully this isn't just a mess when people go to read it... (Sorry I'm new and bad at articulating... >_> )

[quote="Hsanrb"]When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.[/quote]

Despite being a pretty new member of the speedrunning community as a whole, I can definitely understand what you mean by this.  I'm definitely guilty of some copy/paste running in my games of choice (Chrono Trigger, specifically) but I don't feel that those runs are any less legitimate than the newest innovations in a route.  If you want to figure out how to move quickly through the game and perform things like boss skips or what have you, then the ideal methodology would be to emulate the maneuvers between those skips, as they are tried and true.

That said, if someone is going to do copy/paste runs, the least they can do is dig in and figure out why stuff works the way it does.  Learn how a glitch functions and then see if that can be applied elsewhere.  If it does?  Awesome!  If not, keep digging.  I know I've had a lot of moments where I've looked at something and thought "huh.. why doesn't the run this other person did do xxxxxx?"  and then tried it myself to figure it out.  It actually feels pretty good to have someone ask "why do you do this thing in particular?"  and having a detailed answer other than "the WR does it so I do too."

Plus, sticking to a path and just trying to out-fast someone using their own strats can definitely mean that you've perfected execution, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're capable of bringing the run closer to the lowest possible time.

I feel like I derailed into a completely different topic as I typed, so hopefully this isn't just a mess when people go to read it... (Sorry I'm new and bad at articulating... >_> )

ashe_bug

Edit history:

ashe_bug: 2013-08-04 07:15:48 am

2013-08-04 07:15:11 am

+2 against silly

I really like when people share their notes for RPGs (and even for other games) because, at least for myself, I almost ALWAYS find out that whatever routing I've done has either a) already been done by someone else or b) has been done better. And by that I mean that I try and figure out how to play a game in a vacuum and it ends up that something I think is REALLY good for a speedrun has already been invalidated by someone else's idea. That's not a good feeling and it makes one feel like their routing skills are kinda crappy at best. Nier is a good example of that for me - I thought doing this crazy jump-roll thing would be faster than simply rolling, but watching Omnigamer play, I found that wasn't the case at all.

On the positive side, I know I'd never be able to figure out ANY of the glitches in DmC unless the thread about it had been made. Some games just have certain things that you can't figure out without face-smashing the controller. I mean, maybe my brain just doesn't think that way most of the time (which is unfortunate), but I know I wouldn't have tried to chain Fireworks into Slam into Fireworks ad nauseum to do an infinite jump.

To me, notes for ANY run are simply a diving board. It serves as a framework that one can use to further optimize a run using both the basic ideas and their own ideas. I mentioned about "playing in a vacuum" earlier - considering we have two (or more really) very good communities, that doesn't seem like a smart idea anymore. To get input from others, and to have that outside help, makes the community just around a game that much richer in terms of the breadth of knowledge and breadth of personality.

On the topic of copy-paste runs, I do agree that a person should at least strive to understand WHY something works the way it does. It doesn't have to be like programmer-level intimacy, but to at least know "this is how you execute it, this is why you do it" is just simple common sense to me. If you don't understand how something works, how can you properly utilize it yourself? In WR runs of Zero Mission, I've seen walljumps that seemed strange to me at the time, until I incorporated it and found out how it saves time myself. The reason for doing it isn't "because the WR does it," it's "because it saves frames."

In that vein, notes help RPG runners that much more, because they might see how something works, but unless they can understand it, it's difficult to really implement in a proper way. The item/money glitch in FF4 comes to mind for me. I've seen it in action plenty, but I know I can't replicate it myself unless I understand exactly how to do it and what's going on. I know the latter now, but I'm still working at the former. And then again, that turns "because the WR does it" into "because underflow etc etc." Same thing with like Tellah's MP underflow and stuff.

I'm really just for including more people in the community (though I daresay past experience begs me to want to benefit as well). Some people are good at routing, some people are good at running. I think it's just a little mean to leave one or the other out.

I really like when people share their notes for RPGs (and even for other games) because, at least for myself, I almost ALWAYS find out that whatever routing I've done has either a) already been done by someone else or b) has been done [i]better[/i]. And by that I mean that I try and figure out how to play a game in a vacuum and it ends up that something I think is REALLY good for a speedrun has already been invalidated by someone else's idea. That's not a good feeling and it makes one feel like their routing skills are kinda crappy at best. Nier is a good example of that for me - I thought doing this crazy jump-roll thing would be faster than simply rolling, but watching Omnigamer play, I found that wasn't the case at all.

On the positive side, I know I'd never be able to figure out ANY of the glitches in DmC unless the thread about it had been made. Some games just have certain things that you can't figure out without face-smashing the controller. I mean, maybe my brain just doesn't think that way most of the time (which is unfortunate), but I know I wouldn't have tried to chain Fireworks into Slam into Fireworks ad nauseum to do an infinite jump.

To me, notes for ANY run are simply a diving board. It serves as a framework that one can use to further optimize a run using both the basic ideas and their own ideas. I mentioned about "playing in a vacuum" earlier - considering we have two (or more really) very good communities, that doesn't seem like a smart idea anymore. To get input from others, and to have that outside help, makes the community just around a game that much richer in terms of the breadth of knowledge and breadth of personality.

On the topic of copy-paste runs, I do agree that a person should at least strive to understand WHY something works the way it does. It doesn't have to be like programmer-level intimacy, but to at least know "this is how you execute it, this is why you do it" is just simple common sense to me. If you don't understand how something works, how can you properly utilize it yourself? In WR runs of Zero Mission, I've seen walljumps that seemed strange to me at the time, until I incorporated it and found out how it saves time myself. The reason for doing it isn't "because the WR does it," it's "because it saves frames."

In that vein, notes help RPG runners that much more, because they might see how something works, but unless they can understand it, it's difficult to really implement in a proper way. The item/money glitch in FF4 comes to mind for me. I've seen it in action plenty, but I know I can't replicate it myself unless I understand exactly how to do it and what's going on. I know the latter now, but I'm still working at the former. And then again, that turns "because the WR does it" into "because underflow etc etc." Same thing with like Tellah's MP underflow and stuff.

I'm really just for including more people in the community (though I daresay past experience begs me to want to benefit as well). Some people are good at routing, some people are good at running. I think it's just a little mean to leave one or the other out.

Wallcrusher

2013-08-04 04:00:49 pm

Dogi the wallcrusher

I put my notes for Spike in the thread I made mostly because I don't really know how I should format them for the strategy wiki. I have 0 problems with someone else adding them into the wiki and formatting them well, I just don't want to make a horrible looking page.

Ghostwheel

2013-08-04 07:19:06 pm

The artist formerly known as Qxy

Bottom line: this is science. Sometimes you're in the middle of a cutting edge paper race and you want to withhold information until it can be displayed in a more organized fashion or so you can get credit for the latest new innovation. In the long term, however, no one person will likely ever fully route a game, the quality of the route progresses faster as a community effort, and even an established norm can likely be shattered when a new perspective is brought in.

A WR, especially with good commentary, can act nicely as our analogue to a paper, but a KB entry makes even more sense. The wiki formatting and desired KB structure aren't hard; I had no wiki experience before writing my first page, and I just looked at the contra page code and learned/copypasted from that.

grassini

2013-08-14 07:45:57 pm

rpg are not games of skill so people shouldn't think WRs,in general,as skill proofs but the result of the community's efforts in planning.

WanderingMind

2013-08-14 08:45:58 pm

Stay chill, be cool.

Notes are very helpful for running any kind of game in my opinion, especially when it comes to RPGs. It really goes a long way with remembering how to do stuff, what order, how to go about it, and so on. Sometimes I can't trust on memory and it really helps having something down on word. There is something to be said about going through a game while routing and stuff when starting to work on a game, but having something to guide you along can help.

I'm working on Ar tonelico, a game that isn't all that well known to begin with. With that I've been working on my own notes for the game, which is already giving me greater appreciation for a game I only started working on seriously about a few days ago. Having to sit down and write out notes for where to go and how to go about things is stuff I may have never thought about before. On the one hand I'm writing the notes for myself when I do future playthroughs of Ar tonelico. Like for example I'm trying to figure out whether to go with Aurica's or Misha's path. On the other hand I'm writing notes under the assumption that other people will read them eventually. I'd do the same whenever I get to running Valkyria Chronicles in the future.

One of the benefits of running a game with someone else is exchanging notes and building upon what has already been written. Not everyone will have the same way of running through a game, so exchanging notes can really bring things into perspective.

It's all about exchanging ideas and strats.

I just really appreciate notes.

Notes are very helpful for running any kind of game in my opinion, especially when it comes to RPGs.  It really goes a long way with remembering how to do stuff, what order, how to go about it, and so on.  Sometimes I can't trust on memory and it really helps having something down on word.  There is something to be said about going through a game while routing and stuff when starting to work on a game, but having something to guide you along can help.

I'm working on Ar tonelico, a game that isn't all that well known to begin with.  With that I've been working on my own notes for the game, which is already giving me greater appreciation for a game I only started working on seriously about a few days ago.  Having to sit down and write out notes for where to go and how to go about things is stuff I may have never thought about before.  On the one hand I'm writing the notes for myself when I do future playthroughs of Ar tonelico.  Like for example I'm trying to figure out whether to go with Aurica's or Misha's path.  On the other hand I'm writing notes under the assumption that other people will read them eventually.  I'd do the same whenever I get to running Valkyria Chronicles in the future.

One of the benefits of running a game with someone else is exchanging notes and building upon what has already been written.  Not everyone will have the same way of running through a game, so exchanging notes can really bring things into perspective.

It's all about exchanging ideas and strats.

I just really appreciate notes.

Alko

2013-08-15 06:18:05 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from grassini:

rpg are not games of skill so people shouldn't think WRs,in general,as skill proofs but the result of the community's efforts in planning.

I reject this opinion. Better stutter stepping and good menuing in FFIX is a proof of skill to me.

ItsMarill_

2013-10-29 07:57:09 am

I don't think there's enough charact

Agreed.
The greatest RNG can be easily spoiled by:
* Not knowing what to do
* Menuing
* Precise Movement
* Reacting to any kind of event that isn't natural
and remember that there are tricks in these games that do require attention and practice, like
The Zolom Skip (FFVII)
Stutter Stepping (FFIX)
Locking enemies down (FFX-2)
Timings (Lost Odyssey/Legend of Dragoon)
etc etc.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, your opinion is wrong, grassini.

Melodia

2013-10-29 12:01:59 pm

Mental skill is just as important a skill as button pushing skill. You ALWAYS have to adapt in running RPGs. To say they are 'just planning' is rediculous.

The2012Robot

2013-10-30 01:27:07 pm

I run for fun :)

The degree to which you have to adapt is what changes between games. TLoD doesn't require much adaptation at all, at least compared to other RPGs. This is mostly due to a good number of bosses not really putting up a fight. And with the bosses you might have to adapt for, the adaptation is generally just a small deviation from the norm.

I'm not trying to argue that this particular RPG requires no skill (Marill pointed this out well enough), but I would say that the skill level required to run it is very low, even when considering that memorization is also a skill- games like FF8 require a LOT of memorization if you're not just planning on reading your notes and running it on the fly (which obviously isn't optimal). Timing is definitely important in TLoD, but normal additions are hardly challenging, which leaves just the D. additions to try and master for an optimal final boss.

TLoD requires skill. The D. additions on the final boss alone would be enough for me to say that- it's not easy to perform every single one perfectly and just one missed addition could be an extra turn in a boss form, and could affect the rest of the battle. A battle that lasts 35+ minutes. That said and with all things considered, I think good RNG trumps skill in this game.

I don't have any experience in running other RPGs, so I can't really speak to those outside what I've seen other people accomplish.

The degree to which you have to adapt is what changes between games. TLoD doesn't require much adaptation at all, at least compared to other RPGs. This is mostly due to a good number of bosses not really putting up a fight. And with the bosses you might have to adapt for, the adaptation is generally just a small deviation from the norm.

I'm not trying to argue that this particular RPG requires no skill (Marill pointed this out well enough), but I would say that the skill level required to run it is very low, even when considering that memorization is also a skill- games like FF8 require a LOT of memorization if you're not just planning on reading your notes and running it on the fly (which obviously isn't optimal). Timing is definitely important in TLoD, but normal additions are hardly challenging, which leaves just the D. additions to try and master for an optimal final boss.

TLoD requires skill. The D. additions on the final boss alone would be enough for me to say that- it's not easy to perform every single one perfectly and just one missed addition could be an extra turn in a boss form, and could affect the rest of the battle. A battle that lasts 35+ minutes. That said and with all things considered, I think good RNG trumps skill in this game.

I don't have any experience in running other RPGs, so I can't really speak to those outside what I've seen other people accomplish.

Darkenshade

2013-11-15 09:48:44 am

Wheeeeee

I would kill to have a ton of good RPG speedruns. Using the mechanics and item tricks to blow through the game would be sweet. Using glitches to skip 90% of the game, not so much fun...

duckfist

Edit history:

duckfist: 2013-12-02 07:09:03 am

2013-12-02 07:04:21 am

Now that I've got a run of FF3 decently established, I'd like to share my notes. Here's the route I use for running it on console:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYslCLkFXtN-R_R72UWCIDyXAzgjuQO9h0rhyMAZxwQ/

I wanted it in a nice format that I could follow throughout the run. The document has gotten more and more concise as I've gotten more familiar with the route. It's tricky to format it in such a way that I can quickly scan it and know what to do next. It's still pretty packed with detail though - the screenshots are pretty much a necessity, as I don't know if I'll ever have every battle skip fully memorized. Plus, any time I alter the path I follow, a new array of screenshots needs to be taken. Tedious, but it seems to work.

Here are some random notes I was taking while experimenting and learning the game:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZYlv7OT0o47G2Xu2DZIE1SEkGU1TLv-CFLIcCaKlwi0/edit

Here I was trying to find a x2 Hi-Potion drop encounter in the late game. I never found one after hundreds of battles.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AochdJZhbxmMdGx5RzZuWXRXbWdwZWl2WVpMME1ySWc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

I hope this can help somebody out there.

Now that I've got a run of FF3 decently established, I'd like to share my notes.  Here's the route I use for running it on console:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYslCLkFXtN-R_R72UWCIDyXAzgjuQO9h0rhyMAZxwQ/

I wanted it in a nice format that I could follow throughout the run.  The document has gotten more and more concise as I've gotten more familiar with the route.  It's tricky to format it in such a way that I can quickly scan it and know what to do next.  It's still pretty packed with detail though - the screenshots are pretty much a necessity, as I don't know if I'll ever have every battle skip fully memorized.  Plus, any time I alter the path I follow, a new array of screenshots needs to be taken.  Tedious, but it seems to work.

Here are some random notes I was taking while experimenting and learning the game:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZYlv7OT0o47G2Xu2DZIE1SEkGU1TLv-CFLIcCaKlwi0/edit

Here I was trying to find a x2 Hi-Potion drop encounter in the late game.  I never found one after hundreds of battles.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AochdJZhbxmMdGx5RzZuWXRXbWdwZWl2WVpMME1ySWc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

I hope this can help somebody out there.

WanderingMind

2015-03-27 03:36:08 am

Stay chill, be cool.

I'd like to go back to this tread after who knows when, now that I have more experience with routing and running RPGs.

Because an RPG is usually going to take more than a few hours, with 3-4 seeming to be the minimum, you are bound to forget important details that could determine how well your run goes. I've actually had this happen to me multiple times. There is only so much that you can do through practicing a game over and over, but to have it written down in some form means that you're never going to forget it as long as you look it up.

I like to think of routing notes in RPGs as roadmaps, something to help you guide along the way in doing a speedrun attempt. There is nothing bad that comes out of sharing your notes with other people, only bad stuff happens when you don't. What happens if you disappear? All that information you had within you would vanish. But by sharing them with other people? That information is never going to get lost.

I can speak for the Valkyria Chronicles community in general, since that is where I run my main games. I can only speak for how much Nitrodon and PX have shared notes and strats for each other on the first game, and then Nitrodon gave me his routing notes for VC1 so I have something to work with when I actually pick it up as a speedgame. How else will I be able to know how to speed up Chapter 7 of VC1, even with the RNG needed for Tank Slayer as soon as possible to finish the mission.

Going into an RPG to route it blindly is a long and often painful process. Having access to notes is a very useful thing since it speeds up the process of learning the route. The faster a route can be learned, the faster one can actually do runs. Let me tell you about Tales of Xillia here. Back when the Xillia crew got together to start practicing the game for RPG Limit Break, there were no resources available for us to access. We had to start from basically nothing. Osey was super helpful with doing runs early on to provide a point of reference for Milla's route, and then working on Jude's route. Meanwhile Ghoul looked at what Japanese runners have run the game and make his notes from what they did. Freddeh eventually did his own notes, color coding setup, strategy, and directions. This is going to help PX with learning the game and then me eventually when I have the time to sit down and get good at Xillia.

Something very important to keep in mind about taking someone's RPG routing notes to make into your own is to understand what is being said in those notes. It is important to understand why stuff in a route works, but it is also important to understand why other stuff would not work for a route. It took me a lot of trial and error in adapting Ghoul's routing notes to my own notes for Valkyria Chronicles II. Part of it was a stubbornness to see if I could do some things my own way and like to think that what I did would be faster. I did this all back in August. Ever since I brought the time down by a lot and was really pushing my strats as much as I could, I am finding myself returning to what Ghoul did in the past. I will be comparing my splits against his to see who did what split faster. For those splits where Ghoul was faster, I'm going to be copying him. There is no shame in copying other people through their notes when you understand why stuff works and why other stuff would not work.

If you need to include specific instructions on how to menu through parts of a run, then by all means go for writing it down. What is the least amount of inputs on a d-pad needed to pull something off? In the case of Riviera: The Promised Land, what if there was a QTE where I needed to perform a sequence of button presses in a limited time frame? I sure would write it down somewhere. Considering that the game in causal play evaluates how many steps you take through a dungeon, it helps to encourage that speedrunning mindset needed to finish the game as quickly as possible.

If you need to include pictures or videos of something to help explain something in your notes, that stuff can help other people who may want to learn the route.

You always want to save time to compensate for what kind of randomness an RPG may throw your way during a speedrun.

I'd like to go back to this tread after who knows when, now that I have more experience with routing and running RPGs.

Because an RPG is usually going to take more than a few hours, with 3-4 seeming to be the minimum, you are bound to forget important details that could determine how well your run goes.  I've actually had this happen to me multiple times.  There is only so much that you can do through practicing a game over and over, but to have it written down in some form means that you're never going to forget it as long as you look it up.

I like to think of routing notes in RPGs as roadmaps, something to help you guide along the way in doing a speedrun attempt.  There is nothing bad that comes out of sharing your notes with other people, only bad stuff happens when you don't.  What happens if you disappear?  All that information you had within you would vanish.  But by sharing them with other people?  That information is never going to get lost.

I can speak for the Valkyria Chronicles community in general, since that is where I run my main games.  I can only speak for how much Nitrodon and PX have shared notes and strats for each other on the first game, and then Nitrodon gave me his routing notes for VC1 so I have something to work with when I actually pick it up as a speedgame.  How else will I be able to know how to speed up Chapter 7 of VC1, even with the RNG needed for Tank Slayer as soon as possible to finish the mission.

Going into an RPG to route it blindly is a long and often painful process.  Having access to notes is a very useful thing since it speeds up the process of learning the route.  The faster a route can be learned, the faster one can actually do runs.  Let me tell you about Tales of Xillia here.  Back when the Xillia crew got together to start practicing the game for RPG Limit Break, there were no resources available for us to access.  We had to start from basically nothing.  Osey was super helpful with doing runs early on to provide a point of reference for Milla's route, and then working on Jude's route.  Meanwhile Ghoul looked at what Japanese runners have run the game and make his notes from what they did.  Freddeh eventually did his own notes, color coding setup, strategy, and directions.  This is going to help PX with learning the game and then me eventually when I have the time to sit down and get good at Xillia.

Something very important to keep in mind about taking someone's RPG routing notes to make into your own is to understand what is being said in those notes.  It is important to understand why stuff in a route works, but it is also important to understand why other stuff would not work for a route.  It took me a lot of trial and error in adapting Ghoul's routing notes to my own notes for Valkyria Chronicles II.  Part of it was a stubbornness to see if I could do some things my own way and like to think that what I did would be faster.  I did this all back in August.  Ever since I brought the time down by a lot and was really pushing my strats as much as I could, I am finding myself returning to what Ghoul did in the past.  I will be comparing my splits against his to see who did what split faster.  For those splits where Ghoul was faster, I'm going to be copying him.  There is no shame in copying other people through their notes when you understand why stuff works and why other stuff would not work.

If you need to include specific instructions on how to menu through parts of a run, then by all means go for writing it down.  What is the least amount of inputs on a d-pad needed to pull something off?  In the case of Riviera: The Promised Land, what if there was a QTE where I needed to perform a sequence of button presses in a limited time frame?  I sure would write it down somewhere.  Considering that the game in causal play evaluates how many steps you take through a dungeon, it helps to encourage that speedrunning mindset needed to finish the game as quickly as possible.

If you need to include pictures or videos of something to help explain something in your notes, that stuff can help other people who may want to learn the route.

You always want to save time to compensate for what kind of randomness an RPG may throw your way during a speedrun.

Tide

2015-03-30 08:07:14 am

Insanity Prelude

I dunno if the strategy wiki has been caught up, but Rudyxx, I think I spoke to you before about this. I just transported all my notes over to an old defunct wordpress that I used to use as a blog and just changed the entire thing to hold my notes. You use Myspace, so you can definitely do something similar.

The big problem I find with RPGs, especially the lesser known ones: People don't seem to want to either watch vids or look for resources available to them. Some of us route games that aren't Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, so finding resources for these games is more cumbersome, and after awhile, people stop. It doesn't help that because most RPGs will be longer than 2-3 hours, notes are usually more than a few pages so its very easy to get overwhelmed. A big part of the NA community that runs RPGs also seems not be aware that JP runners exist on Nico, which is a shame because they do great work and just having their notes as a starting point is excellent. There is not much you can do when your notes are available but people just don't want to use them or put in the effort to learn the game.

I'll second a lot of WanderingMind's posts because they are quite applicable to routing RPGs and RPG notes in general I find. Including explanations is quite important in your notes to explain to people who want to learn the game what the pitfalls are. You may want to keep 2 sets: One that's more streamlined and one that's a "beginner's guide" or for new runners.

Also strongly disagree on "RPGs are just planning a bit" even though that was like a 2 year old statement. If that were true, you wouldn't have any time differences because everyone can just follow the same notes to achieve the same time. RPGs have to account often for multiple situations (including some that you might not even know about) and even then, people executing menus, movement and commands at varying speeds. You can argue they aren't as execution heavy, but they definitely are devoid of execution.

I dunno if the strategy wiki has been caught up, but Rudyxx, I think I spoke to you before about this. I just transported all my notes over to an old defunct wordpress that I used to use as a blog and just changed the entire thing to hold my notes. You use Myspace, so you can definitely do something similar.

The big problem I find with RPGs, especially the lesser known ones: People don't seem to want to either watch vids or look for resources available to them. Some of us route games that aren't Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, so finding resources for these games is more cumbersome, and after awhile, people stop. It doesn't help that because most RPGs will be longer than 2-3 hours, notes are usually more than a few pages so its very easy to get overwhelmed. A big part of the NA community that runs RPGs also seems not be aware that JP runners exist on Nico, which is a shame because they do great work and just having their notes as a starting point is excellent. There is not much you can do when your notes are available but people just don't want to use them or put in the effort to learn the game.

I'll second a lot of WanderingMind's posts because they are quite applicable to routing RPGs and RPG notes in general I find. Including explanations is quite important in your notes to explain to people who want to learn the game what the pitfalls are. You may want to keep 2 sets: One that's more streamlined and one that's a "beginner's guide" or for new runners.

Also strongly disagree on "RPGs are just planning a bit" even though that was like a 2 year old statement. If that were true, you wouldn't have any time differences because everyone can just follow the same notes to achieve the same time. RPGs have to account often for multiple situations (including some that you might not even know about) and even then, people executing menus, movement and commands at varying speeds. You can argue they aren't as execution heavy, but they definitely are devoid of execution.

Melodia

2015-03-30 01:24:03 pm

Menu speed is a HUUUUGE thing, not to mention just wandering in an optimal line. Plus some games even have encounter manip stuff.....or stuff like the stutter step in FFIX. All this definetly takes exicution over planning.

doicm

2015-03-30 02:27:07 pm

I want to second...third...whatever about menuing in RPGs, and yeah, I write down stuff about what inputs to press after I've optimized my routes because it becomes a bit necessary (and my memory isn't that good + it looks a little ugly in the run if I don't). If it's fine and all, I'll post a sample from Mega Man Battle Network, where I have to do some menuing to organize some battle chips for encounter manipulation to speed up the run (and if you don't know the game, that's fine...just pretend you do):

The overall objective is to rearrange the following battle chips, remove some, and add some chips, although the last part about adding chips is improvised. The number indicates the position of the chip in my chip folder.
Swap Escape N (13) | MetGuard G (27)
Swap Escape L (26) | GutsMan G (30)
Swap Escape N (27) | TriSpear G (1)
Swap Escape N (1) | Quake1 (8) (See note)
Swap TriArrow (7) | Dash G (12)
Swap Dash G (15) | Sword S (16)
Remove Crossgun J (18)
Add Escape J.

Trying to memorize the position as I'm traversing the folder as I'm going through can be a bit ugly if I'm stepping through it, and I don't have the greatest memory. Also, by the time I complete the sequence of button presses to arrange all the chips the way I want to, I may have not done the most optimal (or fastest) sequence. Therefore, I write down what I believe is the fastest sequence, as shown below:

Button presses: (This is a GBA game, for reference.)
R R ^ ^ A R R v v v A
^ A v v v v A
^ ^ ^ A L L L L ^ ^ ^ A
A R A
^ A R ^ ^ A
v v v A v A
v v AA >
Add chips.

This is what I believe is the most optimal, although there may be more optimal sequences out there. I show this as an example that menuing is a powerful thing to plan out when it comes to RPG routing and that this is one example of it. A video comparison might help to illustrate as well........but you can search for Mega Man Battle Network 1 speed runs and get the idea, if you want.

I want to second...third...whatever about menuing in RPGs, and yeah, I write down stuff about what inputs to press after I've optimized my routes because it becomes a bit necessary (and my memory isn't that good + it looks a little ugly in the run if I don't). If it's fine and all, I'll post a sample from Mega Man Battle Network, where I have to do some menuing to organize some battle chips for encounter manipulation to speed up the run (and if you don't know the game, that's fine...just pretend you do):

The overall objective is to rearrange the following battle chips, remove some, and add some chips, although the last part about adding chips is improvised. The number indicates the position of the chip in my chip folder.
Swap Escape N (13) | MetGuard G (27)
Swap Escape L (26) | GutsMan G (30)
Swap Escape N (27) | TriSpear G (1)
Swap Escape N (1) | Quake1 (8) (See note)
Swap TriArrow (7) | Dash G (12)
Swap Dash G (15) | Sword S (16)
Remove Crossgun J (18)
Add Escape J.

Trying to memorize the position as I'm traversing the folder as I'm going through can be a bit ugly if I'm stepping through it, and I don't have the greatest memory. Also, by the time I complete the sequence of button presses to arrange all the chips the way I want to, I may have not done the most optimal (or fastest) sequence. Therefore, I write down what I believe is the fastest sequence, as shown below:

Button presses: (This is a GBA game, for reference.)
R R ^ ^ A R R v v v A
^ A v v v v A
^ ^ ^ A L L L L ^ ^ ^ A
A R A
^ A R ^ ^ A
v v v A v A
v v AA >
Add chips.

This is what I believe is the most optimal, although there may be more optimal sequences out there. I show this as an example that menuing is a powerful thing to plan out when it comes to RPG routing and that this is one example of it. A video comparison might help to illustrate as well........but you can search for Mega Man Battle Network 1 speed runs and get the idea, if you want.

Drifting Skies

2015-03-31 05:12:39 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that RPG speedrunning, particularly for those who do SS/RTA runs, is that they can be a real test of mental and physical fortitude/endurance. It's one thing to maintain focus and play at a high level for 20-30 minutes, or even 2-3 hours. However, there's a certain physical exhaustion factor that kicks in for runs that go on 10+ hours. I know I had a great first four hours of my WR run this past weekend, but then I followed it up with a handful of stupid errors in hours 5-8 that ended up costing somewhere around 8-9 minutes (and then died to the final boss, which cost another 15 minutes). There's a whole bunch of "what is the optimal tradeoff between safety and time savings" that goes on for trying to run super long runs. It's one thing for a 20 minute run where you can play 6 times a day if need be where you cut everything unnecessary out and if you fail a glitch, you start the game over. It's quite another with an 11 hour one where you might only get one full game attempt a month with no chance to start over if you want to finish a run at all that day.

As an example, in the game I run, there's a major piece of RNG where you have 2 45% chances to absorb a certain blue magic. If you succeed, you save somewhere around 15 minutes compared with not doing so. However, this happens about 5 hours and change into the run and if you fail it, it would cost around 9 minutes to try again from the most recent save opportunity. (I've yet to succeed in an actual WR attempt. I'm a bit salty about it.)

There's also a certain meta-routing that goes on regarding eating/staying hydrated/using the restroom that just isn't going to be a part of a run under about 4-5 hours. Sometimes, there are cutscenes where you can walk away, and sometimes, there aren't.

Then, there's money/item routes, EXP routes, and all of that has to be adjusted on the fly if you get bad RNG patterns during boss battles. I will say that in many RPG's, there isn't the same level of physical dexterity execution that you would expect in a platformer or action game. But to say that there isn't skill in the planning, routing, and game execution is simply an unfair statement.

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that RPG speedrunning, particularly for those who do SS/RTA runs, is that they can be a real test of mental and physical fortitude/endurance.  It's one thing to maintain focus and play at a high level for 20-30 minutes, or even 2-3 hours.  However, there's a certain physical exhaustion factor that kicks in for runs that go on 10+ hours.  I know I had a great first four hours of my WR run this past weekend, but then I followed it up with a handful of stupid errors in hours 5-8 that ended up costing somewhere around 8-9 minutes (and then died to the final boss, which cost another 15 minutes).  There's a whole bunch of "what is the optimal tradeoff between safety and time savings" that goes on for trying to run super long runs. It's one thing for a 20 minute run where you can play 6 times a day if need be where you cut everything unnecessary out and if you fail a glitch, you start the game over.  It's quite another with an 11 hour one where you might only get one full game attempt a month with no chance to start over if you want to finish a run at all that day.

As an example, in the game I run, there's a major piece of RNG where you have 2 45% chances to absorb a certain blue magic.  If you succeed, you save somewhere around 15 minutes compared with not doing so.  However, this happens about 5 hours and change into the run and if you fail it, it would cost around 9 minutes to try again from the most recent save opportunity. (I've yet to succeed in an actual WR attempt.  I'm a bit salty about it.)

There's also a certain meta-routing that goes on regarding eating/staying hydrated/using the restroom that just isn't going to be a part of a run under about 4-5 hours.  Sometimes, there are cutscenes where you can walk away, and sometimes, there aren't.

Then, there's money/item routes, EXP routes, and all of that has to be adjusted on the fly if you get bad RNG patterns during boss battles.  I will say that in many RPG's, there isn't the same level of physical dexterity execution that you would expect in a platformer or action game.  But to say that there isn't skill in the planning, routing, and game execution is simply an unfair statement.

rudyxx

2015-04-03 06:27:22 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Yo we have a wiki and I'm too lazy to check if it's already been posted. http://rpgspeedruns.wikia.com/wiki/RPG_Speedruns_Wiki

Melodia

2015-04-03 01:21:13 pm

And the FF Specific Wiki: http://finalfantasyspeedruns.wikidot.com/

WanderingMind

Edit history:

WanderingMind: 2015-04-04 07:38:40 pm

2015-04-04 06:54:17 pm

Stay chill, be cool.

Oh I am going to make use of the RPG wiki I think, thanks Rudy for linking it.

Definitely will try using it for Valkyria Chronicles 2 and Tales of Xillia. I could also see myself making pages for Yggdra Union (Normal mode on PSP, not sure on Hard mode) and the various categories of Riviera: The Promised Land (Any% GBA/PSP, Glitched% JPN GBA, and Much Exp% JPN PSP) when I can learn the route for those.

If RPG runs were just planning, then I would never have to worry about execution ever. I disagree with 'the community's efforts in planning' because unless your RPG speedgame is popular enough, you will may have to play the sole role of the trailblazer, making way for a route for you and the others to follow in using.

Be thankful if you are able to collaborate with others at the same time at such an endeavor. Watching Gerrick and BOWIEtheHERO collaborate on Shadow Hearts live was something to see being done live over stream.