RPG Speedrun notes (or just notes in general)

rudyxx

Edit history:

rudyxx: 2013-06-30 10:49:13 am

2013-06-30 10:48:38 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Greetings everyone. I've been mostly lurking at SDA over the past 10 years. But now I would like to start working towards making an impact in the community that has brought me so many hours of entertainment over the years.

Many years ago RPGs used to be laughed at and generally something people strayed away from speedrunning. Many times I remember suggesting a run of a game and people just telling me that no one would ever want to watch such and such RPG be speedrun because it was too long or too boring. In more recent times I've found more and more people speedrunning longer games or even racing games on SRL with finishing times well over 24 hours.

RPGs typically don't involve a ton of skill and are generally about finding a way to abuse certain moves or equipment. A lot of times it's also more about thinking what is the best option to do given enemy RNG and reacting quickly to that rather than being really good at executing certain moves. I'm not exactly great at execution in games, but I enjoy playing them all the same.

One of the things I enjoy about speedrunning RPGs are the mechanics involved in a lot of them. I would much rather route a game than spend time grinding it over and over again. I'm generally not as interested in holding a world record for a game as much as I am just being able to enjoy the story without spending 50 hours playing through it normally.

Which brings me to the actual point of this topic. There are a lot of RPGs being speedrun now a days. But if someone wants to learn how to speedrun a game, generally they have to sit there and watch a video and take notes, or come up with a route themselves. There's also the chore of searching for information in a topic with 30 pages of information and never really being sure what works and where. It can get really confusing and discouraging for a lot of people. It's much easier to just work from someone else's notes. But they are often hard to find or not even being shared.

I noticed shortly after Essentia posted her FF6 run notes, a lot of people started learning the game. It was really cool to see so many people playing the game for awhile there, even if no one was setting any new records.

I haven't found anywhere as a centralized place for looking up notes on how to speedrun a game. They are all over the place. And a lot of times they are in some foreign language that I can't even tell what it is. I have notes on a bunch of games and I am going to work to put them all in one central location. So that anyone that wants to learn how to speedrun (for example) Radiata Stories can easily find an already written out route and go from there. I am also making the effort to go through Japanese players notes and sort them out into English so that English players can learn to run a game.

If any other RPG speedrunners out there would also be willing to share their notes, feel free to respond here or PM me with a link and I will put them up on a website for easy access to others. This way the games we love and enjoy can get even more love and enjoyment out of them.

Thread title:

Greetings everyone. I've been mostly lurking at SDA over the past 10 years. But now I would like to start working towards making an impact in the community that has brought me so many hours of entertainment over the years.

Many years ago RPGs used to be laughed at and generally something people strayed away from speedrunning. Many times I remember suggesting a run of a game and people just telling me that no one would ever want to watch such and such RPG be speedrun because it was too long or too boring. In more recent times I've found more and more people speedrunning longer games or even racing games on SRL with finishing times well over 24 hours.

RPGs typically don't involve a ton of skill and are generally about finding a way to abuse certain moves or equipment. A lot of times it's also more about thinking what is the best option to do given enemy RNG and reacting quickly to that rather than being really good at executing certain moves. I'm not exactly great at execution in games, but I enjoy playing them all the same.

One of the things I enjoy about speedrunning RPGs are the mechanics involved in a lot of them. I would much rather route a game than spend time grinding it over and over again. I'm generally not as interested in holding a world record for a game as much as I am just being able to enjoy the story without spending 50 hours playing through it normally.

Which brings me to the actual point of this topic. There are a lot of RPGs being speedrun now a days. But if someone wants to learn how to speedrun a game, generally they have to sit there and watch a video and take notes, or come up with a route themselves. There's also the chore of searching for information in a topic with 30 pages of information and never really being sure what works and where. It can get really confusing and discouraging for a lot of people. It's much easier to just work from someone else's notes. But they are often hard to find or not even being shared.

I noticed shortly after Essentia posted her FF6 run notes, a lot of people started learning the game. It was really cool to see so many people playing the game for awhile there, even if no one was setting any new records.

I haven't found anywhere as a centralized place for looking up notes on how to speedrun a game. They are all over the place. And a lot of times they are in some foreign language that I can't even tell what it is. I have notes on a bunch of games and I am going to work to put them all in one central location. So that anyone that wants to learn how to speedrun (for example) Radiata Stories can easily find an already written out route and go from there. I am also making the effort to go through Japanese players notes and sort them out into English so that English players can learn to run a game.

If any other RPG speedrunners out there would also be willing to share their notes, feel free to respond here or PM me with a link and I will put them up on a website for easy access to others. This way the games we love and enjoy can get even more love and enjoyment out of them.

doicm

2013-06-30 11:07:57 am

I made this site a while back as a central repository of sorts to reference other repositories (mainly these forums). However, the host that I use for the site isn't the most reliable. If you can access it, great. If not, sorry XD.

http://doicm.hostzi.com/SpeedGamingResources/

I can add information for certain games. I just need to actually get around to doing it, seeing as I've been working on other projects lately.

rudyxx

2013-06-30 11:21:29 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I am looking to do something very similar, but much more basic. Essentially just links to a person's notes.

Manocheese

2013-06-30 07:16:41 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Ideally, people would put that information on the Strategy Wiki. There's a list of games with information on the wiki here. Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.

rudyxx

2013-06-30 08:28:42 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Manocheese:

Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.

Yeah I think that is silly. Especially considering for most RPGs you can just watch a video since it's not normally execution heavy.

Hsanrb

2013-06-30 10:29:34 pm

Quote from rudyxx:

Quote from Manocheese:

Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.

Yeah I think that is silly. Especially considering for most RPGs you can just watch a video since it's not normally execution heavy.

Unfortunately that is what RPG running has become. Anyone with enough patience can outgrind and outexecute someone elses run based solely on RNG and luck to the point that if you have a major improvement you aren't going to share until you get a run thats extremely difficult to beat or takes a risk that you need critical hits to survive. Its 99% of the reason I never plan on streaming RPG speedruns because the majority steal from the minority (the experts)

When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

[quote="rudyxx"][quote="Manocheese"]Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.[/quote]

Yeah  I think that is silly. Especially considering for most RPGs you can just watch a video since it's not normally execution heavy.[/quote]

Unfortunately that is what RPG running has become. Anyone with enough patience can outgrind and outexecute someone elses run based solely on RNG and luck to the point that if you have a major improvement you aren't going to share until you get a run thats extremely difficult to beat or takes a risk that you need critical hits to survive. Its 99% of the reason I never plan on streaming RPG speedruns because the majority steal from the minority (the experts)

When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

Ghostwheel

2013-06-30 11:16:42 pm

The artist formerly known as Qxy

Luckily the people who don't know what they're doing tend to as a result of this fail to be top contenders. Even a fluke run is often short lived, with the rate at which records can be improved upon these days. I stream RPGs all the time, and as someone who has developed all my own strategies, I'm perfectly happy sharing with someone else. Science is most effective as a collaborative effort after all, and I'm confident enough in my skill to make the competition a little more interesting.

I don't keep notes, but I am with Manocheese in promoting the Strategy Wiki. I've written an extensive page on Chain of Memories, and I'm going to continue to update it. There is so much going on in a game that a simple video can't describe. Notes are good for some people, but often they're written in a shorthand useful for the runner. An up to date guide really simplifies things for new runners.

I have no name

2013-06-30 11:25:59 pm

Obscure games ftw

Even when I copy a route, I still try to figure out WHY each decision in the route was made-when I learned AE3 I copied Surreal's route, questioned why certain things were ordered as they were, changed a few things based on what I could do/my own testing, and did a bunch of runs.
It's harder to do this for an RPG than a platformer, but looking at what skills cut through bosses quickly etc. are always a good place to start.

Related-going through a 5-10 hour video taking notes where every little thing could be something that matters (even something like counting the "can't escape" messages in FFV for timing Level 5 Death) is a non-trivial task. and even someone else's shorthand notes would be helpful in the learning process, at least for me, because then you can see what's actually important. Doesn't need to be anywhere near as detailed as an L1E2PG guide (FFIX challenge), but it's easier to build off of something than to start notes from scratch.

rudyxx

2013-07-01 12:55:41 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Ghostwheel:

I don't keep notes, but I am with Manocheese in promoting the Strategy Wiki. I've written an extensive page on Chain of Memories, and I'm going to continue to update it. There is so much going on in a game that a simple video can't describe. Notes are good for some people, but often they're written in a shorthand useful for the runner. An up to date guide really simplifies things for new runners.

I am all for promoting the wiki. And if we are allowed to post entire run notes on there, then I will happily just start posting my notes on there. However, some games have many many many pages of notes.

Also, I would like to ask that the discussion not trail off as to why people don't give other people their notes. Any argument you try to make will just make you look like an elitist in one direction or the other. And if you don't like helping others, then this topic is not for you anyways.

Equinox

Edit history:

Equinox: 2013-07-01 01:34:52 am

Equinox: 2013-07-01 01:05:22 am

Equinox: 2013-07-01 01:03:40 am

2013-07-01 12:59:56 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I am not really sure what to say, I am running an RPG right now called Okage: Shadow King. I have a lot of notes for pretty much a full run of the game by now, and I have spent countless hours collecting that data. My input here is I would happily share my notes wherever, even on SDA, but not until I am finished. Smiley

presjpolk

2013-07-01 05:30:59 am

HELLO!

Quote from Hsanrb:

Quote from rudyxx:

Quote from Manocheese:

Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.

Yeah I think that is silly. Especially considering for most RPGs you can just watch a video since it's not normally execution heavy.

Unfortunately that is what RPG running has become. Anyone with enough patience can outgrind and outexecute someone elses run based solely on RNG and luck to the point that if you have a major improvement you aren't going to share until you get a run thats extremely difficult to beat or takes a risk that you need critical hits to survive. Its 99% of the reason I never plan on streaming RPG speedruns because the majority steal from the minority (the experts)

When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

That's a very interesting perspective and I feel like I probably do that a little myself, in the games I run. I generally understand the whys, but yeah. I need to be more questioning of routing.

[quote="Hsanrb"][quote="rudyxx"][quote="Manocheese"]Unfortunately, some people either don't care about sharing their knowledge or they want to keep it secret.[/quote]

Yeah  I think that is silly. Especially considering for most RPGs you can just watch a video since it's not normally execution heavy.[/quote]

Unfortunately that is what RPG running has become. Anyone with enough patience can outgrind and outexecute someone elses run based solely on RNG and luck to the point that if you have a major improvement you aren't going to share until you get a run thats extremely difficult to beat or takes a risk that you need critical hits to survive. Its 99% of the reason I never plan on streaming RPG speedruns because the majority steal from the minority (the experts)

When I watch a speedrun, I look for the people who know what they are doing and why they do it. If their reply is "The WR does it so I do it too?" I close their stream and mark not to watch them because they don't know why the decisions are making are the correct ones. I want to watch those who innovate, they are the ones that go far to bringing the time down. Those who duplicate will always be blindsided when a run goes pear shaped.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

[/quote]

That's a very interesting perspective and I feel like I probably do that a little myself, in the games I run.  I generally understand the whys, but yeah. I need to be more questioning of routing.

doicm

2013-07-01 08:44:35 am

To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).

Omnigamer

2013-07-01 09:09:06 am

All the things

Quote from doicm:

To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).

I agree with this. I get just as much (if not more) enjoyment from going through the routing process than performing the actual runs. For RPGs, decisions and tactics make all the difference, and everybody has their own natural tendencies.

To date I have routed and executed two RPG runs: Nier and Suikoden II. Throughout either, I kept updating and releasing notes to the respective threads. For Suikoden II in particular, several people were also giving input and criticism of routing decisions, and because of this the route became much better. That's not to say it's perfect, but competition to find the best route drives the state of the art further.

That's really what I think speedrunning should be about for now: progressing the state of the art. There's no point in keeping notes secret just to prevent people who have too much time on their hands from taking a record. If it was a record that could be taken just from following a blueprint and not actually understanding the mechanics of a game, I would argue that the game has not yet been adequately optimized. I can understand Hsanrb's sentiments, but from what I've seen and experienced I feel like there's no way to exist at the top without a very solid understanding of a game, whether it be an RPG or otherwise. There are just too many optimizations and minor things that are not communicable in notes or otherwise and can only be realized by dedicated runners.

I describe my routes and strategies for every game that I run in their threads or otherwise. Obscurity aside, I am confident that other runners would have to put in at least as much effort as I have to surpass my runs. If there comes a day when Skyblazer or Timecop or Nier fall to another runner, I can only be satisfied with the result. I have done the best that I could, but it can always be driven further.

[quote="doicm"]To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).[/quote]

I agree with this. I get just as much (if not more) enjoyment from going through the routing process than performing the actual runs. For RPGs, decisions and tactics make all the difference, and everybody has their own natural tendencies.

To date I have routed and executed two RPG runs: Nier and Suikoden II. Throughout either, I kept updating and releasing notes to the respective threads. For Suikoden II in particular, several people were also giving input and criticism of routing decisions, and because of this the route became much better. That's not to say it's perfect, but competition to find the best route drives the state of the art further.

That's really what I think speedrunning should be about for now: progressing the state of the art. There's no point in keeping notes secret just to prevent people who have too much time on their hands from taking a record. If it was a record that could be taken just from following a blueprint and not actually understanding the mechanics of a game, I would argue that the game has not yet been adequately optimized. I can understand Hsanrb's sentiments, but from what I've seen and experienced I feel like there's no way to exist at the top without a very solid understanding of a game, whether it be an RPG or otherwise. There are just too many optimizations and minor things that are not communicable in notes or otherwise and can only be realized by dedicated runners.

I describe my routes and strategies for every game that I run in their threads or otherwise. Obscurity aside, I am confident that other runners would have to put in at least as much effort as I have to surpass my runs. If there comes a day when Skyblazer or Timecop or Nier fall to another runner, I can only be satisfied with the result. I have done the best that I could, but it can always be driven further.

DRsynj

2013-07-01 09:43:58 am

Reverse Death Valley Bomb

I've had my RPG speedrun notes hosted on dropbox for a while, when I streamed the runs people would ask for them but less so now, now that I'm doing other things. But you can check em out here and use them on your database as long as you're not taking credit for them.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5udaemho7ew6sex/IT5dt3nlc4

Kotti

2013-07-01 09:58:16 am

Quote from Hsanrb:

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.

I got to agree with this at least a bit, and not just regarding RPG runs. Overall I think that if one person finds a bunch of tricks and another gets good at executing them consistently, it's the first person who has most of my respect. It's also one reason to why when picking up a game for speedrunning I like to do some runs on my own before looking into what other people have already discovered. I feel that that way I'm more likely to find something new and get better at the game.

Of course that could just be because I'm generally pretty bad at video games but really like routing and breaking games Tongue

.

Quote:

If any other RPG speedrunners out there would also be willing to share their notes, feel free to respond here or PM me with a link and I will put them up on a website for easy access to others. This way the games we love and enjoy can get even more love and enjoyment out of them.

Sure, though I have a feeling my Lost Kingdoms notes won't help anyone. Nor do my Dark Souls notes. I've seen people follow notes I've written for some other games and misunderstand a bunch of stuff so I stopped trying to write notes comprehendable by other people.

[quote="Hsanrb"]I'm not trying to be harsh, but I've seen many times where someone says "I know you know about speedruns for game XYZ, have a link to a run?" and within days someone I showed the run to showed it to someone else who is now running shorter catagories building up to the full game using the same strats with limited to no deviation and I shake my head in disgust.
[/quote]I got to agree with this at least a bit, and not just regarding RPG runs. Overall I think that if one person finds a bunch of tricks and another gets good at executing them consistently, it's the first person who has most of my respect. It's also one reason to why when picking up a game for speedrunning I like to do some runs on my own before looking into what other people have already discovered. I feel that that way I'm more likely to find something new and get better at the game.

Of course that could just be because I'm generally pretty bad at video games but really like routing and breaking games :P .

[quote]If any other RPG speedrunners out there would also be willing to share their notes, feel free to respond here or PM me with a link and I will put them up on a website for easy access to others. This way the games we love and enjoy can get even more love and enjoyment out of them.[/quote]Sure, though I have a feeling my [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoH6ELSPYBQKdGVJOFRDZV9DSXhva3BTLUJ0TU13YUE#gid=0]Lost Kingdoms notes[/url] won't help anyone. Nor do my [url=http://pastebin.com/6Ggbh8SC]Dark Souls notes[/url]. I've seen people follow notes I've written for some other games and misunderstand a bunch of stuff so I stopped trying to write notes comprehendable by other people.

kirbymastah

2013-07-01 10:30:18 am

<(^_^)>

Quote from doicm:

To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).

This. This applies moreso for RPGs, but it's still the same for every game. I like looking for my own strategies in non-RPG speedruns (of course, I'll look up major sequence breaks and such), and as a result, there have been many minor strategies found in the games I currently run. It seems to me that a lot of the fun in RPG speedrunning is routing out the game yourself; that'll give you much more depth in the game itself, as well as a different perspective and maybe bring something new to the current game.

Brossentia

2013-07-01 10:41:48 am

No pain, no gain

I dunno. I think it's great to share notes and other ideas. The hardest thing for me, though, is that with FFIV, I really don't follow strict notes until the very end of the run. That section is very different from everything that happens earlier in the run, and so it's been the greatest advantage to share them.

Honestly, I wouldn't have had much success if I wouldn't have picked up Obdajr's notes for the game. They needed some interpretation at points, but they helped me get the basics of what was happening. I needed to know what had been done earlier in the game before I could explore how to do the giant glitches that I was trying to introduce into the speedrun. Since then, I've slowly adapted the route to fit other small discoveries throughout. Most of the exploration of that glitch came from others' notes.

Through sharing my notes about upt Co, I accidentally led Nitrodon onto the scene. He then took out 13-14 minutes from the run. This wouldn't have happened if I didn't spread notes and encourage other people to learn the route. Really, unless you consider this a competition more than a community, there is no point in hoarding information. If someone beats me with my own strategies, then great! I'll destroy them later. Since we're working towards the best run possible, there should be that kind of community competition--sharing strats and cracking out the best run possible.

Of course, credit should come where credit is due. A lot of runners tend to give thanks in notes for people who developed strats, and that tradition is great.

I dunno. I think it's great to share notes and other ideas. The hardest thing for me, though, is that with FFIV, I really don't follow strict notes until the very end of the run. That section is very different from everything that happens earlier in the run, and so it's been the greatest advantage to share them.

Honestly, I wouldn't have had much success if I wouldn't have picked up Obdajr's notes for the game. They needed some interpretation at points, but they helped me get the basics of what was happening. I needed to know what had been done earlier in the game before I could explore how to do the giant glitches that I was trying to introduce into the speedrun. Since then, I've slowly adapted the route to fit other small discoveries throughout. Most of the exploration of that glitch came from others' notes.

Through sharing my notes about upt Co, I accidentally led Nitrodon onto the scene. He then took out 13-14 minutes from the run. This wouldn't have happened if I didn't spread notes and encourage other people to learn the route. Really, unless you consider this a competition more than a community, there is no point in hoarding information. If someone beats me with my own strategies, then great! I'll destroy them later. Since we're working towards the best run possible, there should be that kind of community competition--sharing strats and cracking out the best run possible.

Of course, credit should come where credit is due. A lot of runners tend to give thanks in notes for people who developed strats, and that tradition is great.

Vulajin

2013-07-03 04:06:57 pm

Ghostwheel and I had a discussion about information sharing on his stream a couple weeks back. My take is similar to his, in that I think the best overall results for everyone are achieved by sharing as much information as possible. However, I also kind of think that a well-commentated run can be at least as effective at sharing information (but not necessarily the same, or all, information) as a well-written KB article.

To comment on Kotti's post: "Overall I think that if one person finds a bunch of tricks and another gets good at executing them consistently, it's the first person who has most of my respect." I agree with this for certain classes of games, but I think the respect due each of those individuals is not really comparable. The former has determined the method of achieving the fastest time, and the latter has achieved the fastest time using that method. They're both advancing the quality of that game, so their contributions are equally valid in different ways.

That said - for most RPG speedruns, the routing is such a critical component that it does, to some extent, outweigh the execution aspect. The nice thing is that RPGs frequently have such a massive array of possible options that optimization is almost always possible. Even if you join after there is a solid, long-established route, if you're serious about the game you can still contribute major improvements.

Honestly, maybe I should have just quoted Brossentia's entire post for truth.

Ghostwheel and I had a discussion about information sharing on his stream a couple weeks back. My take is similar to his, in that I think the best overall results for everyone are achieved by sharing as much information as possible. However, I also kind of think that a well-commentated run can be at least as effective at sharing information (but not necessarily the same, or all, information) as a well-written KB article.

To comment on Kotti's post: "Overall I think that if one person finds a bunch of tricks and another gets good at executing them consistently, it's the first person who has most of my respect." I agree with this for certain classes of games, but I think the respect due each of those individuals is not really comparable. The former has determined the method of achieving the fastest time, and the latter has achieved the fastest time using that method. They're both advancing the quality of that game, so their contributions are equally valid in different ways.

That said - for most RPG speedruns, the routing is such a critical component that it does, to some extent, outweigh the execution aspect. The nice thing is that RPGs frequently have such a massive array of possible options that optimization is almost always possible. Even if you join after there is a solid, long-established route, if you're serious about the game you can still contribute major improvements.

Honestly, maybe I should have just quoted Brossentia's entire post for truth.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2013-07-04 02:40:49 pm

2013-07-04 02:40:43 pm

sda loyalist

Quote from Brossentia:

unless you consider this a competition more than a community

I remember when SDA wasn't like this Smiley

rudyxx

2013-07-08 07:36:25 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I never found out if we can post our entire notes to the wiki or not. If we can, I'd much rather do that. If we can't, then I'm going to start working on a thing this week.

tjp7154

2013-07-09 12:23:38 pm

#Casual

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from doicm:

To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).

This. This applies moreso for RPGs, but it's still the same for every game. I like looking for my own strategies in non-RPG speedruns (of course, I'll look up major sequence breaks and such), and as a result, there have been many minor strategies found in the games I currently run. It seems to me that a lot of the fun in RPG speedrunning is routing out the game yourself; that'll give you much more depth in the game itself, as well as a different perspective and maybe bring something new to the current game.

I personally like the challenge of routing something myself -- up to a point. When I first start a game, I like to just play through in a way I think is fast, then gradually incorporate the community-wide strategies into it. This isn't the most efficient way to go from game pick up to optimized speed run, but it's not about efficiency for me. That said, in order to get a really good run, yeah, community input is needed.

As far as notes go, even though I haven't even scratched the surface, I enjoyed using something as simple as a spreadsheet for organizing the data I need for the RPG game I want to eventually speedrun -- Dark Cloud 2 (Chronicle). I had tabs for script, key enemies, items, prices, and strategies. I could organize it fairly well. This does rely on a computer indeed; another option is to get a text document and just print it out, unless you like just writing straight into a notebook, which can get confusing FAST since you can't really edit and reorganize notes well...

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="doicm"]To be honest, whenever it comes time for me to want to run an RPG, I think I'd prefer routing it myself before watching someone else's run. Even though it'd take a very long time, it might reveal strats that no one else had considered, and it might help improve a route overall when it actually comes time to checking out other routes (after a few runs with personal route ofc).[/quote]

This. This applies moreso for RPGs, but it's still the same for every game. I like looking for my own strategies in non-RPG speedruns (of course, I'll look up major sequence breaks and such), and as a result, there have been many minor strategies found in the games I currently run. It seems to me that a lot of the fun in RPG speedrunning is routing out the game yourself; that'll give you much more depth in the game itself, as well as a different perspective and maybe bring something new to the current game.[/quote]

I personally like the challenge of routing something myself -- up to a point.  When I first start a game, I like to just play through in a way I think is fast, then gradually incorporate the community-wide strategies into it.  This isn't the most efficient way to go from game pick up to optimized speed run, but it's not about efficiency for me.  That said, in order to get a really good run, yeah, community input is needed.

As far as notes go, even though I haven't even scratched the surface, I enjoyed using something as simple as a spreadsheet for organizing the data I need for the RPG game I want to eventually speedrun -- Dark Cloud 2 (Chronicle).  I had tabs for script, key enemies, items, prices, and strategies.  I could organize it fairly well.  This does rely on a computer indeed; another option is to get a text document and just print it out, unless you like just writing straight into a notebook, which can get confusing FAST since you can't really edit and reorganize notes well...

The2012Robot

2013-07-14 10:26:08 pm

I run for fun :)

I have mixed feelings about sharing my notes. On one hand I wish everyone would share their notes. I wanted to learn Sonic 2 about a year ago but information regarding input and physics was scarce (not sure what's out there now). This made it VERY hard to come close to matching the game's record times. After struggling with (Zone 2, Act 2?) I gave up simply because I realized that there was something I was definitely missing. Trying to play execution-heavy games can be sadly frustrating due to lack of public community support. You could contact someone that knows what they're doing, but there's no guarantee of an answer. So on this hand, I wish that all the information be publicly available.

But I turn into a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to my Legend of Dragoon (RPG) notes. TLoD is a VERY luck heavy game. Skill is hardly a factor whatsoever- menu navigation being that minuscule factor. It has no discovered sequence breaks or anything that requires very precise execution (besides dragoon additions which are not overly difficult to get good at). To be clear, I believe that if my current route was capable of bringing the fastest possible run, and I were to release it to everyone, anyone that has working knowledge of a controller, a decent memory and a day to waste could grab the record. Obviously that's very oversimplified, but I trust you understand what I'm getting at.

I started the run because there appeared to be nobody else running the game at all at the time, and nobody was even trying for a single-segment. It's one of my favorite games and I thought "Finally! A chance to leave a real mark on SDA." I could hold a record on this site I respect so much. To publicize my notes would be to throw away the record and the countless hours I've put in, all in the attempt to actually have the record in the first place. What's worse is that I just don't have the time to put into real attempts, the game is long and absolutely ridden with dialogue, and fighting luck isn't exactly my idea of a good time.

I also worry about people taking my work and crediting it as their own. Not to mention the idea of someone using my notes that I put so much work into to get the WR really bugs me. A TLoD run is just a route and some luck...

On the positive side, reading this thread has made me rethink giving my notes to the community. If I really believe that the game relies so much on luck (which I do), what's the value in having the record itself? Having a really good run-time would only prove that I got lucky and that my route was solid. I think the route itself is the only thing I really care about at this point... so I guess if credit is given when credit is due, I have no problem with sharing my notes in their entirety. Maybe credit means too much to me, but if I were not credited in the end for a real contribution, 6 months of playing TLoD all day would feel like they'd be invalidated Tongue

I will share my route. The way I will do so will be discussed here for anyone that's interested: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/legend_of_dragoon_speed_run.html

I have mixed feelings about sharing my notes. On one hand I wish everyone would share their notes. I wanted to learn Sonic 2 about a year ago but information regarding input and physics was scarce (not sure what's out there now). This made it VERY hard to come close to matching the game's record times. After struggling with (Zone 2, Act 2?) I gave up simply because I realized that there was something I was definitely missing. Trying to play execution-heavy games can be sadly frustrating due to lack of public community support. You could contact someone that knows what they're doing, but there's no guarantee of an answer. So on this hand, I wish that all the information be publicly available.

But I turn into a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to my Legend of Dragoon (RPG) notes. TLoD is a VERY luck heavy game. Skill is hardly a factor whatsoever- menu navigation being that minuscule factor. It has no discovered sequence breaks or anything that requires very precise execution (besides dragoon additions which are not overly difficult to get good at). To be clear, I believe that if my current route was capable of bringing the fastest possible run, and I were to release it to everyone, anyone that has working knowledge of a controller, a decent memory and a day to waste could grab the record. Obviously that's very oversimplified, but I trust you understand what I'm getting at.

I started the run because there appeared to be nobody else running the game at all at the time, and nobody was even trying for a single-segment. It's one of my favorite games and I thought "Finally! A chance to leave a real mark on SDA." I could hold a record on this site I respect so much. To publicize my notes would be to throw away the record and the countless hours I've put in, all in the attempt to actually have the record in the first place. What's worse is that I just don't have the time to put into real attempts, the game is long and absolutely ridden with dialogue, and fighting luck isn't exactly my idea of a good time.

I also worry about people taking my work and crediting it as their own. Not to mention the idea of someone using my notes that I put so much work into to get the WR really bugs me. A TLoD run is just a route and some luck...

On the positive side, reading this thread has made me rethink giving my notes to the community. If I really believe that the game relies so much on luck (which I do), what's the value in having the record itself? Having a really good run-time would only prove that I got lucky and that my route was solid. I think the route itself is the only thing I really care about at this point... so I guess if credit is given when credit is due, I have no problem with sharing my notes in their entirety. Maybe credit means too much to me, but if I were not credited in the end for a real contribution, 6 months of playing TLoD all day would feel like they'd be invalidated :P

I will share my route. The way I will do so will be discussed here for anyone that's interested: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/legend_of_dragoon_speed_run.html

ZenicReverie

2013-07-14 10:49:57 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

That's the benefit of adding it to a wiki. It has your name as the page creator.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-07-14 11:12:26 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-07-14 11:12:25 pm

2013-07-14 11:03:17 pm

I run for fun :)

I'm not familiar with wikis :/ I was thinking I'd use Google Drive. My notes aren't super user-friendly at the moment either.

rudyxx

2013-07-15 06:08:27 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Mr. K is working on revamping the wiki page. He's still working on a structure at this point, but I do encourage everyone here to share their notes on the wiki once he has finished with it.