Route planning tools

Edit history:

Dimon157: 2009-05-09 06:07:32 am

2009-05-09 06:01:52 am

Hello.
I have read many topics and suppose that nobody uses any tools for planning routes except pen and paper.
I suppose that using some tools can make plans very demonstrative and it would be easier to see on what parst to work for.
Here is sample: http://ipicture.ru/Gallery/Viewfull/18652892.html
blue tasks unskippable (main quest), green tasks is getting better weapon, more money etc.

Comments?

Thread title:

ExplodingCabbage

2009-05-09 06:41:52 am

I don't get it. How does this approach help you?

Poesta

2009-05-09 07:20:12 am

Yarr

Nah, pen an paper ftw. When I'm not sure which way is the quickest, I just try them all and write down the times.

Tompa

2009-05-09 07:33:24 am

I'm remember everything in my head instead of writing down stuff, it's much easier :P.

NoiseCrash

Edit history:

NoiseCrash: 2009-05-09 09:59:26 am

2009-05-09 09:53:06 am

@_@

I use something like notepad or just use a forum post as a place to jot down stuff (in this case I just planned out the optional stuff I had to get and ended up changing a few things during attempts), but then try to memorize as much as I can with each attempt. Once I put in a few attempts I don't even need to look at the route for that segment anymore. Seems to me like using some graphical timeline approach is just cluttering and unnecessary.

Enhasa

2009-05-10 01:23:50 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I think this is an interesting topic to see actual analysis or modeling of some sort, but like you said, nobody currently does this. I think maybe if anything more formal was done, it would start to cross the line for some people from enjoyment into work. I'm an industrial engineering grad student (in the business of optimizing stuff), so I have vaguely wondered about this sort of thing before though.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-05-10 10:37:12 am

I'm not put off by this because it crosses the line into work, I'm put off because I can't see in what situation presenting things like this would actually be helpful.

Scepheo

2009-05-10 12:16:59 pm

It allows you to make a list of all things you need to do, and how long side quests take you, how much time they save and hor big of a detour they are. Then the computer can calculate the optimal route for you to take.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-05-10 02:01:33 pm

The issue I see is that you're generally going to have travel time between side quest/main quest locations as well as time saved off the main quest by completing each side quest. Potentially these travel times could each significantly change depending upon what quests have already been completed (due to opening up new routes, getting better weapons to cut through the enemies you have to fight along the way, etc.). Furthermore, completing a sidequest that gets you a better weapon will speed up another sidequest involving fighting something. If the computer can take all these factors into account when computing the best route, then I eat my words and that's awesome. If not, what is it good for?

Riskbreaker Y

2009-05-10 02:45:06 pm

berserker status

I think pen and paper isn't even necessary but can help sometimes. I agree that it's best and easier to simply know the route from heart. Usually if you're good enough to run the game in question, it is almost a given that you already know the best route without any further familiarization. Of course this varies among games where there's more leeway on alternate routes and such.

nate

2009-05-10 11:58:37 pm

some rudimentary stuff has been done with prime. stuff like travel time from door to door to pit possible routes against one another. but yeah it was never really formal. now the stuff grenola did with i.drone - that was cool. maybe he'll post if he sees this.

Red_Shifter

2009-05-20 10:59:32 am

yes, an iron knuckle riding a mechanical horse

The 100% Majora's Mask run was done with "a gigantic Excel document" and apparently took 3 weeks of planning. Of course, that's an extreme example.

Sorcerer88

2009-05-21 03:40:37 am

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

For my Thps 3 and 4 runs, i did a lot of optimization, as i had goals that needed a specific amount of time, but could also connect more or less well to other goals, so i had to weigh it out, although i only did it by reasoning. I'd love to do things like linear optimization, though, if it's ever feasible.

Here are 2 examples:
Thps4 College Level Overview
I think this is my best map so far and extremely useful for planning.

http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62631837.png
Map overviews in Toejam. The dots are items, that you can collect. This map makes it a lot easier to choose the items, but i could have designed the markings a lot better, the colors of the dots aren't even unique for each item. Oh well.

So, i think it's really interesting to use tools like this for route planning, and i'd love to do some math for one run someday, but it always depends on the game you're running. I guess there could be a lot of this math going on in strategy games, where you could calculate resource income or damage output per time of your units.

For my Thps 3 and 4 runs, i did a lot of optimization, as i had goals that needed a specific amount of time, but could also connect more or less well to other goals, so i had to weigh it out, although i only did it by reasoning. I'd love to do things like linear optimization, though, if it's ever feasible.

Here are 2 examples:
[url=http://img269.imageshack.us/my.php?image=collegelayoutfinal3.jpg]Thps4 College Level Overview[/url]
I think this is my best map so far and extremely useful for planning.

[url=http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62631837.png]http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62631837.png[/url]
Map overviews in Toejam. The dots are items, that you can collect. This map makes it a lot easier to choose the items, but i could have designed the markings a lot better, the colors of the dots aren't even unique for each item. Oh well.

So, i think it's really interesting to use tools like this for route planning, and i'd love to do some math for one run someday, but it always depends on the game you're running. I guess there could be a lot of this math going on in strategy games, where you could calculate resource income or damage output per time of your units.

Hattori HANZo

2009-05-23 06:34:15 am

contraddicted

I guess what sort of tool you need and which tools may be helpful depends a lot on the game you're running. And for 3D games helpful tools would include a complete scale model of the game world in many cases.
The problem is: who is willing to spend a crapload of time to make his own tools, just for a run of a single game?

So to me the main question is, which kind of tools could be useful for many games or in general?
There's a lot of things to just take notes. Be it paper, some basic editor or some note taking stuff with a bit of layout.
For calculations, what is going beyond a simple calculator or an Excel spreadsheet?

Do people even have an imagination of what a usefull tool would do and how it could be like?

Beenman500

2009-05-29 12:35:04 pm

Joke of all trades

its seems to me that it is a fancy adder and subtracter, save 2 mins here, cost 3 mins here, you lose 1 min.
a little pointless.

Scepheo

2009-05-29 03:04:10 pm

Quote from beenman500:

its seems to me that it is a fancy adder and subtracter, save 2 mins here, cost 3 mins here, you lose 1 min.
a little pointless.

Difference being that a computer can test all possible orders (for the actions) within, say, a second (assuming it's a somewhat linear game) where this would take you a full day.

Zaito

2009-05-30 12:42:04 pm

I can't use pen and paper, cause my handwriting is REALLY bad

Scepheo

2009-05-31 03:39:48 am

Quote from Zaito:

I can't use pen and paper, cause my handwriting is REALLY bad

As long as you can read it. I tend to prefer drawing stuff and putting all kinds of arrows in. A TAS tends to be quite a good speedrunning tool as well Tongue

Playing on an emulator, so you can try all routes without having to do the whole level thing over each time.

I'd say for linear and basic platform games (like the original mario) a computer can do all the calculating. Problem is, so can you. And due to the time that entering all algorithms and level layouts takes, it's a lot faster to do it yourself.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-05-31 04:02:23 am

Yeah, as far as I can see route planning software only starts to even potentially become worthwhile when you're dealing with extremely complex RPGs, and then it becomes impossible. There may be a tiny minority of games for which the computer planning approach works but I cannot think of any.

For one thing the order in which you do tasks will almost always affect the time they take (due to having different equipment/abilities), so for the software to just brute force all possible routes you'd need to have tested every fight in the game at every possible level of experience and combination of equipment and tell the computer how fast it can be done, you'd need to tell the computer the experience and item reward for every possible action in the route, plus have it know all the different consumable items you have access to (including all the different possibilities for randomised loot) and the time they can save in every fight. And you'd need to have an algorithm capable of processing all this information.

Clearly this is unworkable, since just to have the computer brute force the problem you're effectively testing every possible route in the game yourself.

Of course, you could skip some of this work and put in guesses/approximations, but then you're still doing a whole lot of work to acheive something that could've been done better with some thought, testing and intuition.

Yeah, as far as I can see route planning software only starts to even potentially become worthwhile when you're dealing with extremely complex RPGs, and then it becomes impossible. There may be a tiny minority of games for which the computer planning approach works but I cannot think of any.

For one thing the order in which you do tasks will almost always affect the time they take (due to having different equipment/abilities), so for the software to just brute force all possible routes you'd need to have tested every fight in the game at every possible level of experience and combination of equipment and tell the computer how fast it can be done, you'd need to tell the computer the experience and item reward for every possible action in the route, plus have it know all the different consumable items you have access to (including all the different possibilities for randomised loot) and the time they can save in every fight. And you'd need to have an algorithm capable of processing all this information.

Clearly this is unworkable, since just to have the computer brute force the problem you're effectively testing every possible route in the game yourself.

Of course, you could skip some of this work and put in guesses/approximations, but then you're still doing a whole lot of work to acheive something that could've been done better with some thought, testing and intuition.

DoubleThink

2009-05-31 08:05:38 am

There's a word for that

I do ALL my planning in Excel. It's great because if you need to change something you can just set up the formula and then everything updates, and I actually find it far cleaner to use than word/notepad/whatever for general note taking. I don't use it to try and time anything though, figuring out what is faster and where is part of the fun Cheesy

andrewg

2009-05-31 09:30:36 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

vgmaps.com is helpful in some games for route planning.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-05-31 10:00:38 am

DoubleThink - what do you use Excel for then?

Thomaz

2009-05-31 01:29:02 pm

Catchin' them all

I know most of the things by heart, and in other cases, like my Pokemon 100% Blue, I just write down the route and see, with the emulator, what works and what doesn't. I have also printed out the list of encounter rates of Pokemon to see what would be the best to get where and the highest level they come at (or; if it's faster to catch an evolution or catch the highest level and feed it rare candies. I've timed the diffferences).

I actually like it this way too, feels like I'm actively working on the route and on the speedrun. Not just following a route the computer pooped out, if you know what I mean.

gia

2009-05-31 06:00:42 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from DoubleThink:

I do ALL my planning in Excel. It's great because if you need to change something you can just set up the formula and then everything updates, and I actually find it far cleaner to use than word/notepad/whatever for general note taking. I don't use it to try and time anything though, figuring out what is faster and where is part of the fun Cheesy

same, all my runs had something done on excel

DoubleThink

2009-05-31 07:59:04 pm

There's a word for that

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

DoubleThink - what do you use Excel for then?

Depends on the game a lot. Basically anything where it's helpful to record any kind of value at a certain point, ranging from things like exp/damage calculations for RPGs to just having amount x of y at point z. And like I said, I prefer it for general note-taking too, so basically I just use it as my general planning frame because I find it the most convenient place to do it. If I need to work on something away from my comp I'll take hand notes, but I feel like doing any large amount of planning by hand would just make things very cluttered very quickly >_>