Rosenkreuzstilette/Freudenstachel

IsraeliRD

Edit history:

IsraeliRD: 2010-10-27 05:00:57 pm

2010-10-27 04:58:39 pm

Dragon Power Supreme

Absolutely awesome run, wasn't disappointed. A few mistakes there and there as well as some bad luck (Iris final was annoying) but nothing really bad. Hard to pick a favorite moment though, too many good ones. Great job again!

getter77

2010-10-27 06:30:52 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Very nice run that I had a good time watching today! Thanks for all the hard work.

65

2010-10-30 01:31:22 pm

Thanks, glad to hear it.

Exo

2011-12-20 04:55:51 pm

Sandbagging

Started to work on a Grolla SS run a few days ago.
Here is probably one of the bigger improvements I've made to the route so far.
Quick-killing the miniboss in Unbekannt's stage saves a lot of time.
Here is a test run of it in action (far from perfect but it gets the point across) :

It's roughly 10 seconds faster than Cremators Unbekannt stage even though I got pretty bad boss luck (critted on the first phase).

P.S.: There is only 1 pixel without a hitbox next to the miniboss.

072

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2012-11-26 02:23:20 pm

2011-12-21 04:00:44 pm

Nice. I'm not very familiar with Grolla but it's great that this game is getting more attention. Looking forward to seeing more.

I don't suppose you have any interest in running Tia... >_>

Exo

2011-12-21 04:53:19 pm

Sandbagging

Yeh I'm gonna stick to Grolla. It's just more fun to run ^^

nate

2011-12-21 05:20:47 pm

makes you wonder whether they put that in there on purpose. nice find either way.

Krimmydoodle

Edit history:

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:28:56 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:13:42 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:13:39 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:13:38 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:11:50 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 02:11:48 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 01:37:17 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 01:30:16 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-25 01:29:48 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-02-23 05:13:59 pm

2012-02-23 01:54:47 am

I picked this up about a week ago (Spiritia single-segment, I'll leave Grolla to people who know how to play Zero characters). While I have nothing anywhere near submittable, I was checking segment times on my last replay (39:17.64 on the replay timer) and noted a few things:

Grolla: I approximately tied this segment, but in the boss fight I lose two seconds to Preddy's run, which tells me that in return I gain two seconds in the stage, as I stop to kill fewer things and have a different midboss strategy that makes it easier to aim Freudenstachel and get a faster kill.

Liebea: 1:44.55 -> 1:43.83, and this includes at least two seconds of execution error on my part, so I should be capable of a 1:41.xx. I use a few more Eins than he does to grab a couple of ladders more optimally. I 'm also not sure if this saves time, but I use Eins to go over the first three crushers and take less damage (looking at it, I think I actually lose about half a second, but I'm throwing it out if anyone cares to discuss it).

Zorne: 1:44.04 -> 1:42.29, probably from momentum-jumping off of Zwei at the end of the stage.

Schwer-Muta: 1:43.96 -> 1:39.81, Preddy's notes say that charging the bomb before entering the boss room saves time. I disagree, because laying a linebomb delays your second bomb. Like Bomberman, a bomb that is caught in another bomb's explosion explodes with it, so the best way to kill Schwer-Muta is to stagger all of your bombs on the stairs so they explode individually after her invincibility wears off. Preddy does this for his last two bombs, I do it with all four (throwing my first one to get it out there as quickly as possible).

As for other stages, Freudia is all about boss luck so it's not worth comparing, I died in Luste and Sichte so I can't compare those, and I was a second off his Trauare time because her stage sucks. I didn't compare the castles because I'm still working on those, it's more effort to compare times for individual levels, and they're not directly comparable because I (being single-segment) don't get a weapon refill after Sepperin.

With a bit more research, I think I'm also going to cut Lilly (the familiar weapon that you get in Trauare's stage) from the route. One use of it is on Death to achieve an AI loop, but I can achieve a similar AI loop with the buster. No time saved here. The other use is as a weakness on Iris. Lilly can deal 2 damage per hit twice per round and theoretically end the battle in 7 rounds if she's not stupid. Actually, 8 rounds. I can't get her to hit twice on the first round because you start on the opposite side of the screen as Iris. Using Lilly requires spending a lot of time near Iris, as Lilly's AI returns her to Spiritia between attacks. The way Preddy does it by constantly running away causes Lilly to cross long distances between Spiritia and Iris to land a hit, and not hit her twice per round. Even if you try your best to stay near her, if Iris spawns up high on the screen it can be nearly impossible to land a second hit.

Instead of relying on Lilly, I rely on a mixture of charged Luste Atem (4 damage, 5 uses as long as you have 25/28 weapon energy on it) and charged Buster (2 damage), which kills her in 9 rounds. You could even bring this down to 8 or 7 rounds by sneaking in an uncharged Luste Atem or buster shot just after damage invincibility goes down and just before Iris disappears for the round, though the window for this seems to be very tight. Lilly needs to save 4 rounds over a non-Lilly method to be worthwhile (takes 15 seconds to fall down the hole where she is, 4 rounds of the Iris fight takes up about 16 seconds), but a -perfect luck- 8 round Lilly fight only saves one round to a well-executed 9 round Atem/Buster fight.

This is not yet submittable, but I just about tied the SDA run in a single-segment attempt, but because the segmented run skips a cutscene at the end of the first castle, this is approximately 35 seconds of better play. I still had a dumb death in the run, and a few moments of panic because of things I'm not quite used to, but I'm liking what I'm seeing out of myself at the moment.

Upon reviewing the replay, the death cost about 28 seconds. I'll set my initial goal at sub-35 SS, but if I still think I'm capable of better then I'm certainly open to revising that goal in the future.

So, uh, 3 days after this post started, I just now thought to look into the verification pipelines to see if there was something in there, and there is indeed a massive improvement to that. This is going to make things more interesting. Is there a way I can actually see that run since it's not up as the "official" SDA run yet?

I picked this up about a week ago (Spiritia single-segment, I'll leave Grolla to people who know how to play Zero characters).  While I have nothing anywhere near submittable, I was checking segment times on my last replay (39:17.64 on the replay timer) and noted a few things:

Grolla: I approximately tied this segment, but in the boss fight I lose two seconds to Preddy's run, which tells me that in return I gain two seconds in the stage, as I stop to kill fewer things and have a different midboss strategy that makes it easier to aim Freudenstachel and get a faster kill.

Liebea: 1:44.55 -> 1:43.83, and this includes at least two seconds of execution error on my part, so I should be capable of a 1:41.xx.  I use a few more Eins than he does to grab a couple of ladders more optimally.  I 'm also not sure if this saves time, but I use Eins to go over the first three crushers and take less damage (looking at it, I think I actually lose about half a second, but I'm throwing it out if anyone cares to discuss it).

Zorne: 1:44.04 -> 1:42.29, probably from momentum-jumping off of Zwei at the end of the stage.

Schwer-Muta: 1:43.96 -> 1:39.81, Preddy's notes say that charging the bomb before entering the boss room saves time.  I disagree, because laying a linebomb delays your second bomb.  Like Bomberman, a bomb that is caught in another bomb's explosion explodes with it, so the best way to kill Schwer-Muta is to stagger all of your bombs on the stairs so they explode individually after her invincibility wears off.  Preddy does this for his last two bombs, I do it with all four (throwing my first one to get it out there as quickly as possible).

As for other stages, Freudia is all about boss luck so it's not worth comparing, I died in Luste and Sichte so I can't compare those, and I was a second off his Trauare time because her stage sucks.  I didn't compare the castles because I'm still working on those, it's more effort to compare times for individual levels, and they're not directly comparable because I (being single-segment) don't get a weapon refill after Sepperin.

With a bit more research, I think I'm also going to cut Lilly (the familiar weapon that you get in Trauare's stage) from the route.  One use of it is on Death to achieve an AI loop, but I can achieve a similar AI loop with the buster.  No time saved here.  The other use is as a weakness on Iris.  Lilly can deal 2 damage per hit twice per round and theoretically end the battle in 7 rounds if she's not stupid.  Actually, 8 rounds.  I can't get her to hit twice on the first round because you start on the opposite side of the screen as Iris.  Using Lilly requires spending a lot of time near Iris, as Lilly's AI returns her to Spiritia between attacks.  The way Preddy does it by constantly running away causes Lilly to cross long distances between Spiritia and Iris to land a hit, and not hit her twice per round.  Even if you try your best to stay near her, if Iris spawns up high on the screen it can be nearly impossible to land a second hit.

Instead of relying on Lilly, I rely on a mixture of charged Luste Atem (4 damage, 5 uses as long as you have 25/28 weapon energy on it) and charged Buster (2 damage), which kills her in 9 rounds.  You could even bring this down to 8 or 7 rounds by sneaking in an uncharged Luste Atem or buster shot just after damage invincibility goes down and just before Iris disappears for the round, though the window for this seems to be very tight.  Lilly needs to save 4 rounds over a non-Lilly method to be worthwhile (takes 15 seconds to fall down the hole where she is, 4 rounds of the Iris fight takes up about 16 seconds), but a -perfect luck- 8 round Lilly fight only saves one round to a well-executed 9 round Atem/Buster fight.

This is not yet submittable, but I just about tied the SDA run in a single-segment attempt, but because the segmented run skips a cutscene at the end of the first castle, this is approximately 35 seconds of better play.  I still had a dumb death in the run, and a few moments of panic because of things I'm not quite used to, but I'm liking what I'm seeing out of myself at the moment.

Upon reviewing the replay, the death cost about 28 seconds.  I'll set my initial goal at sub-35 SS, but if I still think I'm capable of better then I'm certainly open to revising that goal in the future.

So, uh, 3 days after this post started, I just now thought to look into the verification pipelines to see if there was something in there, and there is indeed a massive improvement to that.  This is going to make things more interesting.  Is there a way I can actually see that run since it's not up as the "official" SDA run yet?

nate

2012-11-12 09:33:39 pm

this is where i am right now in freudenstachel. pardon the suckage. requires version 1.01a to play.

note that even though 072 apparently told me long ago, i didn't understand until recently that the timer in this game is totally fucked up. the game records wall clock time to your .rpy regardless of how much lag there is. so you can't really run this game if your computer lags assuming sda continues using the in-game timer ...

Attachment:

freudenstachel_101a_38-57-20_nate.rpy

Arkhanno

2012-11-23 11:52:39 am

Nate, I'm a little confused by your route. Why don't you get Eisschwert first? It would save you from having to damage boost in a lot of areas since it can freeze any regular enemy that isn't shielded, as well as projectiles. Once frozen they don't do damage to you so you can pass right through and you can use them as platforms. (Or at least that's how it was in 1.00a; I haven't played the patched versions.) Any time lost in doing Grolla first (i.e. the miniboss) would be made up in Luste's stage on the boss battle alone.

I feel like you're picking up too much weapon energy when you could be a little more conservative or just use different offensive weapons like Frostklinge, Einslanze and Schneekristal. Lastly, I noticed that you aren't always canceling Strudel's Frügel by switching weapons. This could save you some weapon energy like in Lecht & Rink's stage where you can get through the stage without picking up any extra weapon energy for Strudel's Frügel.

Other than those things I think it was a good starting run. There are improvements to be made and I hope to see more!

Nate, I'm a little confused by your route. Why don't you get Eisschwert first? It would save you from having to damage boost in a lot of areas since it can freeze any regular enemy that isn't shielded, as well as projectiles. Once frozen they don't do damage to you so you can pass right through and you can use them as platforms. (Or at least that's how it was in 1.00a; I haven't played the patched versions.) Any time lost in doing Grolla first (i.e. the miniboss) would be made up in Luste's stage on the boss battle alone.

I feel like you're picking up too much weapon energy when you could be a little more conservative or just use different offensive weapons like Frostklinge, Einslanze and Schneekristal. Lastly, I noticed that you aren't always canceling Strudel's Frügel by switching weapons. This could save you some weapon energy like in Lecht & Rink's stage where you can get through the stage without picking up any extra weapon energy for Strudel's Frügel.

Other than those things I think it was a good starting run. There are improvements to be made and I hope to see more!

072

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2012-11-26 02:22:58 pm

2012-11-24 01:57:36 pm

Quote:

Any time lost in doing Grolla first (i.e. the miniboss) would be made up in Luste's stage on the boss battle alone.

Are you forgetting about Grolla herself? And also the long room right before the fight would be much slower without Strudels Fluegel.

Vucious Creed

2012-11-24 04:28:46 pm

Glad my fanboy lvls aren't THIS high

Well, now looking into Freudenstachel as of and reading the past few posts, my question would be this: Now say that you do consider doing "Heroe" first opposed to Grolla. I would expect that Grolla's stage would be faster with the Fleugel in certain sections of the stage, but would there be alternate and faster routes and/or strats for the other stages now that Eisschwert won't be accessible from the get-go? Probably the most notable issue is in Schwer-Muta's stage where you have to deal with those "MM2-esque Hot Dog" analogs where instead of "freeze 'n go", you would have to waste time to fight them seriously. I'm also sure there are also a few other areas where freezing enemies would prove much more useful than either fighting them or taking damage boosts.

So would doing Grolla potentially last of the first 8 bosses with all other gear make up the time or even be faster than blowing through stages with Eisschwert available from the start?

nate

2012-11-24 11:26:29 pm

i think you should watch my run at your earliest available opportunity.

Arkhanno

2012-11-25 02:28:23 am

Vucious, we would be sliding under them in Schwer's stage.

072, there's at least 20 seconds to be gained on Luste's fight alone by using Eisschwert. It can also be used in a bunch of levels to either prevent needing to damage boosting (i.e. freeze a gargoyle so you don't need to boost past it) or to help get past an enemy in a bad location easier (i.e. a skull that throws balls)

I actually did forget how long the screen before Grolla was. >_> Either way, some areas it can save time: enemies in Luste's stage, enemies in first room of Zorne's stage, Frog Men and Dryads in Dolis's stage, enemies in Sichte's stage. There's more examples of this, but I don't really want to go through all the stages right now. Any time lost in Grolla's stage by fighting the miniboss and getting to/defeating Grolla will be saved in Luste's stage. After that you're getting further in the green as you continue on.

KennyMan666

Edit history:

KennyMan666: 2012-11-25 01:38:06 pm

KennyMan666: 2012-11-25 01:10:47 pm

KennyMan666: 2012-11-25 01:09:04 pm

KennyMan666: 2012-11-25 01:07:15 pm

2012-11-25 01:04:30 pm

Precursor

God. God.

I was briefly toying with the idea of running Freudenstachel because it seemed to have pretty pleasant stages. Then I actually got to the second 4 bosses and holy fuck Schirach is the worst goddamned boss I have ever come across in any Mega Man clone ever (Freudenzwinger being literally the most awkward to use weapon I've ever come across doesn't help things either)

And the first castle stage is pure bullshit everywhere.

And nowhere. Nowhere ever, in any of the bullshit-filled Mega Man hacks I have played over the years, have I ever ran acoss something as low as the invisible spikes in Iris II.

Vucious Creed

Edit history:

Vucious Creed: 2012-11-25 07:39:37 pm

2012-11-25 07:38:40 pm

Glad my fanboy lvls aren't THIS high

Quote from Arkhanno:

Vucious, we would be sliding under them in Schwer's stage.

I now have a big facepalm moment right now after realizing this. I should have known that there was a slide space right there. Oh well, I'll keep that in mind during future training sessions.

Quote from nate:

i think you should watch my run at your earliest available opportunity.

I want to look at the replay, but I've updated to version 1.02a by now and I'm getting some syncing issues for some reason. I can't finish the Dolis, Pamela, couldn't see the full Liebea and Schirach fights, and I can't even look at the Iris stages at all due to some very bad syncing. Not to mention the Schwartzkruez stage select didn't show defeated opponents at all upon selecting replays of stages after Schirach. I'm probably going to have to get the 1.01a version to view it completely.

However, from what I was able to see and doing my own bit of training, I might have some ideas on how to save more time. Before I do that, though, I need to do some more training and planning before I can formulate these ideas.

[quote="Arkhanno"]Vucious, we would be sliding under them in Schwer's stage.[/quote]

I now have a big facepalm moment right now after realizing this.  I should have known that there was a slide space right there.  Oh well, I'll keep that in mind during future training sessions.

[quote="nate"]i think you should watch my run at your earliest available opportunity.[/quote]

I want to look at the replay, but I've updated to version 1.02a by now and I'm getting some syncing issues for some reason.  I can't finish the Dolis, Pamela, couldn't see the full Liebea and Schirach fights, and I can't even look at the Iris stages at all due to some very bad syncing.  Not to mention the Schwartzkruez stage select didn't show defeated opponents at all upon selecting replays of stages after Schirach.  I'm probably going to have to get the 1.01a version to view it completely.

However, from what I was able to see and doing my own bit of training, I [i]might[/i] have some ideas on how to save more time.  Before I do that, though, I need to do some more training and planning before I can formulate these ideas.

Krimmydoodle

Edit history:

Krimmydoodle: 2012-11-26 05:13:56 am

Krimmydoodle: 2012-11-26 05:12:58 am

2012-11-26 03:22:23 am

The sync issues aren't limited to version differences. I tried watching it on 1.01a ("good thing I have a copy of every version of RKSF!" I thought), but it had all sorts of weirdness similar to what you described. I was able to watch it when I started the replay from the beginning rather than skipping to a later stage, and maybe closing/reopening the game may have done something to help reinitialize it (there have been some known glitches that occur when you only press Esc rather than restarting the game entirely, so I restarted the game just in case). But yeah, the replay function is more touchy than I'd like.

I only watched the replay at fast forward, but I caught two improvements with Weissteufel. In Eifer's stage, in the room where you climb the moving ceiling, you can cut a cycle from the moving ceiling by getting to the ladder, casting Weissteufel when the ceiling goes up, and going straight to the next room from there. (I wonder if you can cut another cycle and effectively make a straight run to the end of the room, but if it's possible it'll be tricky.)

The other one is in Castle 1, in that "damned Mega Man 2 boss" room. Instead of waiting for the lasers, then using Strudels Hund to get up, you can use Weissteufel to slow time enough to run through the room before any of the lasers block you off. You'll want to cast it somewhere in the middle of the previous room, where it lasts just long enough to get you through the room you need it for, because if Weissteufel is still active two rooms later, lasers will wall you off and slow you down there.

I haven't put as much into this game as I'd like, but I've been keeping an eye out for speed strats from day one, and I'm glad to see this game getting some discussion.

Edit: A couple days ago the 1.03a patch was released, and the patch notes mention replays, so maybe replays are more stable now? It didn't make Nate's 1.01a replay any more stable, but maybe replays made in 1.03a and played in 1.03a will hold together. Though I did notice when trying to watch a replay that it wouldn't let a replay start in the middle of the Schwarzkreuz stages (it blacked out Stages 10-12 and didn't let you select them), so maybe it didn't actually "fix" anything and just hides it by not letting you trigger the buggiest part of the replays.

1.03a also has a limited stage select function that can be accessed by highlighting "Exit" on the title menu and pressing the spacebar (which is the default key, or if you remapped your keys, press whatever "Pause" is in the key config). It will force Strudel into your weapon set, which might mess up muscle memory (unless there's a way to get rid of her that I can't find), and it won't save replays properly, but it's there.

The sync issues aren't limited to version differences.  I tried watching it on 1.01a ("good thing I have a copy of every version of RKSF!" I thought), but it had all sorts of weirdness similar to what you described.  I was able to watch it when I started the replay from the beginning rather than skipping to a later stage, and maybe closing/reopening the game may have done something to help reinitialize it (there have been some known glitches that occur when you only press Esc rather than restarting the game entirely, so I restarted the game just in case).  But yeah, the replay function is more touchy than I'd like.

I only watched the replay at fast forward, but I caught two improvements with Weissteufel.  In Eifer's stage, in the room where you climb the moving ceiling, you can cut a cycle from the moving ceiling by getting to the ladder, casting Weissteufel when the ceiling goes up, and going straight to the next room from there.  (I wonder if you can cut another cycle and effectively make a straight run to the end of the room, but if it's possible it'll be tricky.)

The other one is in Castle 1, in that "damned Mega Man 2 boss" room.  Instead of waiting for the lasers, then using Strudels Hund to get up, you can use Weissteufel to slow time enough to run through the room before any of the lasers block you off.  You'll want to cast it somewhere in the middle of the previous room, where it lasts just long enough to get you through the room you need it for, because if Weissteufel is still active two rooms later, lasers will wall you off and slow you down there.

I haven't put as much into this game as I'd like, but I've been keeping an eye out for speed strats from day one, and I'm glad to see this game getting some discussion.

Edit: A couple days ago the 1.03a patch was released, and the patch notes mention replays, so maybe replays are more stable now?  It didn't make Nate's 1.01a replay any more stable, but maybe replays made in 1.03a and played in 1.03a will hold together.  Though I did notice when trying to watch a replay that it wouldn't let a replay start in the middle of the Schwarzkreuz stages (it blacked out Stages 10-12 and didn't let you select them), so maybe it didn't actually "fix" anything and just hides it by not letting you trigger the buggiest part of the replays.

1.03a also has a limited stage select function that can be accessed by highlighting "Exit" on the title menu and pressing the spacebar (which is the default key, or if you remapped your keys, press whatever "Pause" is in the key config).  It will force Strudel into your weapon set, which might mess up muscle memory (unless there's a way to get rid of her that I can't find), and it won't save replays properly, but it's there.

072

Edit history:

072: 2012-11-26 04:06:56 pm

072: 2012-11-26 02:25:07 pm

nate: 2012-11-26 02:22:37 pm

2012-11-26 10:00:26 am

Quote from Arkhanno:

Any time lost in Grolla's stage by fighting the miniboss and getting to/defeating Grolla will be saved in Luste's stage. After that you're getting further in the green as you continue on.

You're not, because you lose as much time on Grolla as you would on Luste (if not more).

Quote from Krimmydoodle:

But yeah, the replay function is more touchy than I'd like.

Yeah, I think WOMI is working on that but I'm not positive.

Your Weissteufel ideas are good... I meant to look at uses for that but forgot >_> Can you still get up that laser room in Iris 1, though?

EDIT: Okay, I see what you mean. That is pretty neat. Hopefully I will be able to do a run without dying soon and I will post it here.

nate

2012-11-27 09:11:45 am

some replay bugs are fixed in 1.03a but you still can't start in the middle of the black cross levels. start replay playback only at approved places and you will be fine. also note that 1.03a includes a hidden stage select from which you can instantly warp to any stage in the game for practice purposes. press select with "exit" highlighted on the title screen.

Vucious Creed

Edit history:

Vucious Creed: 2012-12-03 09:21:22 pm

2012-12-03 09:10:40 pm

Glad my fanboy lvls aren't THIS high

I've been grinding more on Freudenstachel and completed a no-death run, but unfortunately, I resorted to use a couple of Cross Tanks mostly because I was too far to die around late in the run. Anyway, there are cleary tons of room for improvement, most notably on Eifer's stage and the newest "Devil" fight.

Besides improvements in terms of better overall execution in several spots throughout the run, at least in Eifer's stage, I got to figure out what stopped me from reaching full height when using the Strudels Hund in one specific area. You'll see what I'm talking about in the replay, but unless I'm mistaken, I'm positive I was stopped by nothing but air.

Also, another notable stage route change is in Schirach's stage where I use the Strudels Fluegel in the upper area of the first earthquaking section rather than use it immediately. This is more testing an idea for the most part since I'm not sure whether this may either save or lose time.

The in-game replay clocks in at 37:16.30, but after viewing the replay with W-Split I came up with around 36:55.xx (which furthers the notion that the in-game timer is insufficient); if there are any more improvable ideas, I'd like to know. NOTE: I've timed from start of replay to boss defeat, not the end of the "Iris bowing" scene which the replay timer stops.

I've been grinding more on Freudenstachel and completed a no-death run, but unfortunately, I resorted to use a couple of Cross Tanks mostly because I was too far to die around late in the run.  Anyway, there are cleary tons of room for improvement, most notably on Eifer's stage and the newest "Devil" fight.

Besides improvements in terms of better overall execution in several spots throughout the run, at least in Eifer's stage, I got to figure out what stopped me from reaching full height when using the Strudels Hund in one specific area.  You'll see what I'm talking about in the replay, but unless I'm mistaken, I'm positive I was stopped by nothing but air.

Also, another notable stage route change is in Schirach's stage where I use the Strudels Fluegel in the upper area of the first earthquaking section rather than use it immediately.  This is more testing an idea for the most part since I'm not sure whether this may either save or lose time.

The in-game replay clocks in at 37:16.30, but after viewing the replay with W-Split I came up with around 36:55.xx (which furthers the notion that the in-game timer is insufficient); if there are any more improvable ideas, I'd like to know.  NOTE: I've timed from start of replay to boss defeat, not the end of the "Iris bowing" scene which the replay timer stops.

Attachment:

VC_RKSF_Run001_103a.rpy

Krimmydoodle

2012-12-03 11:25:21 pm

I don't see anything wrong with using the in-game timer. For precedent, the posted Grolla run for RKS uses in-game timer, which indeed counts Iris bowing after the player loses control as part of the timer. Yes, it counts time after the loss of control, but in-game timers are accepted when the in-game timer is accurate. As far as accuracy, I find WSplit to be consistent with it when I'm running it live. You say that your WSplit is inconsistent with the in-game timer, but you say you're timing with the replay, which, while rerendering the replay, may have very slight differences in lag than the original run. To see if WSplit really is inaccurate, use WSplit on your live runs. End the timer when the HUD disappears. In my experience, any inaccuracies will be fractions of seconds in human error in hitting WSplit.

Vucious Creed

2012-12-04 08:46:40 am

Glad my fanboy lvls aren't THIS high

Okay, fair enough. I'll re-evaluate my time checking methods as far as this game goes to see how much lag influences the in-game timer (well, mostly the random lag spikes that occurs during some runs). Timing issues aside, however, I would still like to hear input on the strats used in the run; if anything seems feasible to use throughout, may be an unnecessary waste of time, or if anything seems confusing so that I may be able to explain my reasoning for my actions in the run.

nate

2012-12-04 11:03:32 am

going to watch the run in a bit, but first, about the in-game timer:

Quote from nate:

note that even though 072 apparently told me long ago, i didn't understand until recently that the timer in this game is totally fucked up. the game records wall clock time to your .rpy regardless of how much lag there is. so you can't really run this game if your computer lags assuming sda continues using the in-game timer ...

further clarification: the game writes the current wall clock (real, non-lag) time to the replay file every frame. which means if the game lags while you're running it, you lose that time forever. better buy a new computer, don't stream while you're doing serious runs, or try to convince everyone to switch to realtime for these games ... even though the existing runs don't use it.

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2012-12-04 01:09:34 pm

nate: 2012-12-04 01:04:58 pm

2012-12-04 12:55:17 pm

okay, watching the run now.

interesting trau strat. it's not clear to me that this is faster than mine, though, since you have to move up to meet her for the last two hits.

it's possible to use the fruegel earlier in the bottom room in zorne's stage. the timing is a little tight, but it probably saves a bit of time versus going rambo through there.

cooperative doris. she's probably one of my least consistent.

i really love those ice elementals right before the end of the liebea homunculus's stage. they are so cute.

i've gotten a liebea quick kill before and i'm assuming you have too. it's just very annoying, very inconsistent. seems impossible to predict her exact movement and the weapon is terrible.

it's not necessary to jump over the electricity generating thing when it's not active in the second room of sichte's stage. due to the favorable timing, you can just slide straight through that room.

very interesting that you take the left path just before the halfway point of the same stage. neither i nor 072 does that right now. it does look like it may be faster.

lol at the feedback loop riding fruegel. for some reason i was never able to do that myself.

yeah, it does look faster to just rambo through the mm1 hopping thing just before sichte's door. i wait and go under it but i'm pretty sure now that's slower since you are already most clear of its body as it is starting to rise.

ok, it's possible to kill the second gng skeleton in the third room of grolla's stage while you are so far to the left that it knocks it right out of the memory of the game. this means that you don't have to deal with it when you get there. it's not that difficult to do, but i have nonetheless managed to fail it many times. i'm not sure if you knew about this or not.

it's almost certainly faster to use the hund instead of climbing the long ladder midway through the last room in grolla's stage.

very fast end to that room btw. nice.

man, grolla is such a pain in the ass.

shame about the r/l fight.

i doubt your use of the fruegel in the first half of scratch's stage saved time ... i could be wrong, but even with the 1-2 interruptions by the dude in the background (during which you can simply jump and go at the same speed as you do riding the fruegel), sliding along the bottom seems like it must be faster to me. perhaps it would be good to time this level.

on the other hand, i liked the opening to the room, before you called it down.

interesting use of the fruegel in the falling blocks -> stairsteps room. i believe 072 uses the hund there now. this is probably too close to call. either strat scares the shit out of me. i'm definitely not cut out to run this game.

it's possible to skip the first block in the next room. just jump under it to the second nonmoving platform. it saves time because your proximity is what triggers the blocks to appear.

awesome how you keep the fluegel at the end of the stage. that possibility never occurred to me.

yeah, lol ... eifer's level. as far as i can tell, you are colliding with the top of the mm1 hopping thing (the one not moving, in the background). in this room i just call out the fluegel as soon as possible and ride it up and jump around to the top. i doubt using the hund is faster, so you shouldn't have to worry about this happening again. afaik you should be able to see this in my run.

yeah, good use of the time stopper at the end of the stage.

eifer is such a bitch and i don't have anything to tell you unfortunately.

lol, so you can jump over the big dudes' spikes in the middle of pamela's stage ... who knew.

there's no need to wait to use the hund in the next room. just walk left a bit. of course, it's not clear to me whether it actually saves a substantial amount of time, but you might try it out. i'd be surprised if this weren't also shown in my run i posted here.

probably some work on memorizing pamela's movements would help lower your time. she is quite predictable, especially for the first part of the fight, which will be almost the entire fight if you are doing well.

hahaha. ouch. i don't even attempt to cycle over to trau's weapon against drac. in the menu it's just a single press of left on the dpad, so i doubt cycling is even faster unless you are frezy or something.

didn't realize the fruegel strat in the last room of iris 2 was so easy. just have to stay as high as possible all the time apparently. good to know.

oops ... accidentally posted early. not used to writing long posts on here.

man, i had no idea you could hit the yellow devil three times per round. guess that's a pretty major timesaver i wasn't aware of.

again, not really sure what you're going for with trau. you should probably just stick to my strat.

yeah, liebea quick kill. nice.

not sure why you're so timid against iris machine ii. just throw the fackel all the time.

ok yeah, awesome run. let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

okay, watching the run now.

interesting trau strat. it's not clear to me that this is faster than mine, though, since you have to move up to meet her for the last two hits.

it's possible to use the fruegel earlier in the bottom room in zorne's stage. the timing is a little tight, but it probably saves a bit of time versus going rambo through there.

cooperative doris. she's probably one of my least consistent.

i really love those ice elementals right before the end of the liebea homunculus's stage. they are so cute.

i've gotten a liebea quick kill before and i'm assuming you have too. it's just very annoying, very inconsistent. seems impossible to predict her exact movement and the weapon is terrible.

it's not necessary to jump over the electricity generating thing when it's not active in the second room of sichte's stage. due to the favorable timing, you can just slide straight through that room.

very interesting that you take the left path just before the halfway point of the same stage. neither i nor 072 does that right now. it does look like it may be faster.

lol at the feedback loop riding fruegel. for some reason i was never able to do that myself.

yeah, it does look faster to just rambo through the mm1 hopping thing just before sichte's door. i wait and go under it but i'm pretty sure now that's slower since you are already most clear of its body as it is starting to rise.

ok, it's possible to kill the second gng skeleton in the third room of grolla's stage while you are so far to the left that it knocks it right out of the memory of the game. this means that you don't have to deal with it when you get there. it's not that difficult to do, but i have nonetheless managed to fail it many times. i'm not sure if you knew about this or not.

it's almost certainly faster to use the hund instead of climbing the long ladder midway through the last room in grolla's stage.

very fast end to that room btw. nice.

man, grolla is such a pain in the ass.

shame about the r/l fight.

i doubt your use of the fruegel in the first half of scratch's stage saved time ... i could be wrong, but even with the 1-2 interruptions by the dude in the background (during which you can simply jump and go at the same speed as you do riding the fruegel), sliding along the bottom seems like it must be faster to me. perhaps it would be good to time this level.

on the other hand, i liked the opening to the room, before you called it down.

interesting use of the fruegel in the falling blocks -> stairsteps room. i believe 072 uses the hund there now. this is probably too close to call. either strat scares the shit out of me. i'm definitely not cut out to run this game.

it's possible to skip the first block in the next room. just jump under it to the second nonmoving platform. it saves time because your proximity is what triggers the blocks to appear.

awesome how you keep the fluegel at the end of the stage. that possibility never occurred to me.

yeah, lol ... eifer's level. as far as i can tell, you are colliding with the top of the mm1 hopping thing (the one not moving, in the background). in this room i just call out the fluegel as soon as possible and ride it up and jump around to the top. i doubt using the hund is faster, so you shouldn't have to worry about this happening again. afaik you should be able to see this in my run.

yeah, good use of the time stopper at the end of the stage.

eifer is such a bitch and i don't have anything to tell you unfortunately.

lol, so you can jump over the big dudes' spikes in the middle of pamela's stage ... who knew.

there's no need to wait to use the hund in the next room. just walk left a bit. of course, it's not clear to me whether it actually saves a substantial amount of time, but you might try it out. i'd be surprised if this weren't also shown in my run i posted here.

probably some work on memorizing pamela's movements would help lower your time. she is quite predictable, especially for the first part of the fight, which will be almost the entire fight if you are doing well.

hahaha. ouch. i don't even attempt to cycle over to trau's weapon against drac. in the menu it's just a single press of left on the dpad, so i doubt cycling is even faster unless you are frezy or something.

didn't realize the fruegel strat in the last room of iris 2 was so easy. just have to stay as high as possible all the time apparently. good to know.

oops ... accidentally posted early. not used to writing long posts on here.

man, i had no idea you could hit the yellow devil three times per round. guess that's a pretty major timesaver i wasn't aware of.

again, not really sure what you're going for with trau. you should probably just stick to my strat.

yeah, liebea quick kill. nice.

not sure why you're so timid against iris machine ii. just throw the fackel all the time.

ok yeah, awesome run. let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

Vucious Creed

2012-12-04 06:55:18 pm

Glad my fanboy lvls aren't THIS high

Quote from nate:

interesting trau strat. it's not clear to me that this is faster than mine, though, since you have to move up to meet her for the last two hits.

I've re-watch your strat for the Trau fight and compared them to mine. I want to say that the time may be close to equal, but I think if done cleanly, yours may be a bit faster by maybe a second. However, that's only for the first fight; during the rematch, your strat seems to be the clear winner even though I might try some ideas using the charged Eislanze for the sake of experimentation.

Quote from nate:

it's possible to use the fruegel earlier in the bottom room in zorne's stage. the timing is a little tight, but it probably saves a bit of time versus going rambo through there.

Hm, I'm not sure I see where you're going with that. If possible or whenever available, I would like to see how early you summon the Fruegel so I can get a visual on this strat.

Quote from nate:

i've gotten a liebea quick kill before and i'm assuming you have too. it's just very annoying, very inconsistent. seems impossible to predict her exact movement and the weapon is terrible.

Yeah, I've gotten it before, but I don't think it's about predicting movement as much as being able to react to whether she decides to go "Spark Man" (which I would assume is most preferred) or goes "Magnet Man" as her first attack and then counterattack accordingly. However, I will agree that the weakness weapon can be a hassle especially if she goes all "Magnet Man" on the first attack.

Quote from nate:

it's not necessary to jump over the electricity generating thing when it's not active in the second room of sichte's stage. due to the favorable timing, you can just slide straight through that room.

Eh? So the bottom electric generator has no hitbox, then? If that's the case, then that would make sliding much easier.

Quote from nate:

very interesting that you take the left path just before the halfway point of the same stage. neither i nor 072 does that right now. it does look like it may be faster.

I don't see how the right side would be faster. First, you have to wait for the electric bolts to fire while zig-zagging your way to a couple of ladders as opposed to the left as you just summon the Hund and get to the top right then and there. Also, upon the next screen from taking the right route, you have to make a slightly longer trek to the other side where as you're already there from taking the left.

Quote from nate:

lol at the feedback loop riding fruegel. for some reason i was never able to do that myself.

Heh, yeah. That was funny, but looking back on it, I wonder if it's truly faster than running along with the wind assuming you run through the platforming and enemy obstacles smoothly. That might be something to look into if it hasn't already.

Quote from nate:

ok, it's possible to kill the second gng skeleton in the third room of grolla's stage while you are so far to the left that it knocks it right out of the memory of the game. this means that you don't have to deal with it when you get there. it's not that difficult to do, but i have nonetheless managed to fail it many times. i'm not sure if you knew about this or not.

Yeah, I knew about that. That was just a failed attempt to scroll it out of the screen. Once it fails, I just go with it as I don't want to waste time messing around with it for too long.

Quote from nate:

it's almost certainly faster to use the hund instead of climbing the long ladder midway through the last room in grolla's stage.

I suspected that, but at the time I wasn't thinking about it and went with what I knew at the current moment.

Quote from nate:

man, grolla is such a pain in the ass.

QFT. Her sword dashes are quite irritating, then there's her using her Grollschwert while time is slowed down, but I'm sure you know all about that already.

While on the subject of annoying bosses, as a quick aside, the only other boss than her (to me) that might be just as annoying is Lu... erm, "Heroe." This is mostly because of the randomness of the rising platforms during the second half of the battle; even to the point that sometime the platform generator has to wait a couple of seconds just to send more platforms upward. Pretty much any fight against "Heroe" that sends her to the rightmost side during her second phase is considered a slow fight.

Quote from nate:

shame about the r/l fight.

Yeah, if it's not the first shot that does me in, it's either an accidental high shot or a late shot. Of course, it could be worse; just as long as it doesn't hit the other twin, then it's salvageable.

Quote from nate:

i doubt your use of the fruegel in the first half of scratch's stage saved time ... i could be wrong, but even with the 1-2 interruptions by the dude in the background (during which you can simply jump and go at the same speed as you do riding the fruegel), sliding along the bottom seems like it must be faster to me. perhaps it would be good to time this level.

This is pretty much one of my concerns of the run. The reason I did this is because I don't want to deal with the shield attackers and the chance of getting caught by a tremor. Not to mention squeezing through the two bombs to get to the bottom appears to be more trouble than it's worth. That being said, the bottom route does seem to be faster, but I might improve on my original strat just a bit by using a charged Eisschwert earlier and using a Hund rather than climbing the ladder. So pretty much more experimenting.

Quote from nate:

interesting use of the fruegel in the falling blocks -> stairsteps room. i believe 072 uses the hund there now. this is probably too close to call. either strat scares the shit out of me. i'm definitely not cut out to run this game.

LOL, but seriously, I can see using the Hund as a viable strat if one can get to the bottom of the ladder quick enough. It's something else I can look into as another option.

Quote from nate:

it's possible to skip the first block in the next room. just jump under it to the second nonmoving platform. it saves time because your proximity is what triggers the blocks to appear.

Now this is good to know. No more wasting time for the first falling block.

Quote from nate:

yeah, lol ... eifer's level. as far as i can tell, you are colliding with the top of the mm1 hopping thing (the one not moving, in the background). in this room i just call out the fluegel as soon as possible and ride it up and jump around to the top. i doubt using the hund is faster, so you shouldn't have to worry about this happening again. afaik you should be able to see this in my run.

But that makes things make even less sense as it should only be background and not have a hitbox at all (lousy programming). Well regardless, I want to say using the Hund is faster because you don't have to wait for one of those rising platforms to reach a specific height to make use of the Fluegel while you can just summon the Hund on the platform an jump straight there without much waiting. However, until I can use the Hund more reliably in that screen, I may switch to the Fluegel for the time being.

Quote from nate:

yeah, good use of the time stopper at the end of the stage.

Thanks, but it's not perfect. Getting caught in that small corner negated the full effect of what the slow time could do. If that was executed to its full effect, I can maintain to the very end of the stage and beat the first of the last two ghost skulls to the last set of rising platforms, in which, by that time, the time slow will end and I can just focus on beating the second one near the boss door.

Quote from nate:

eifer is such a bitch and i don't have anything to tell you unfortunately.

You'd think dodging her attacks would be much simpler. I just can't figure out the timing as of yet.

Also, before moving on, I must note that at the very beginning of Eifer's stage, it is possible to slide completely thoughout the first screens of rising platforms; this includes sliding over the gaps that are along the way. The problem is the timing and rhythm of the slides needed to make it to the end of the first area are iffy at best and makes this strat extremely risky since a miss may result in a lost life. Just mentioning this to those that might want to try it... so, good luck on that.

Quote from nate:

there's no need to wait to use the hund in the next room. just walk left a bit. of course, it's not clear to me whether it actually saves a substantial amount of time, but you might try it out. i'd be surprised if this weren't also shown in my run i posted here.

You might need to show this as I reviewed your run, and it didn't show what you are saying. It would be quite interesting to see this in action to get a better understanding.

Quote from nate:

probably some work on memorizing pamela's movements would help lower your time. she is quite predictable, especially for the first part of the fight, which will be almost the entire fight if you are doing well.

I do indeed know of Pamela's movements. That was just a badly executed fight, unfortunately. Most of my jumps were rather late; not to mention that I don't get to her often during run attempts since I screw up way before then and reset. So I was a bit rusty in fighting her.

Quote from nate:

hahaha. ouch. i don't even attempt to cycle over to trau's weapon against drac. in the menu it's just a single press of left on the dpad, so i doubt cycling is even faster unless you are frezy or something.

It's amazing how things change in recording situations because I'm usually more successful at the weapon switch strat against our Drac-analog several times before this fight off-screen. I plan to keep trying it, but also alternate to the pause-switch strat as well since the weakness weapon is just one left click away.

Quote from nate:

again, not really sure what you're going for with trau. you should probably just stick to my strat.

Pretty much talked about this on the first discussion of the fight. To be fair, however, I completely forgot that during the rematches for Trau and Zorne, neither of them helped the other and I had the first fight strat in the head, not that it helps much.

Quote from nate:

not sure why you're so timid against iris machine ii. just throw the fackel all the time.

Well, needless hesitation on firing when invincibility frames on the Iris Machine and dodging fast attacking energy balls can do wonders on a player's psyche. Seriously though, a more aggressive approach is a must, so I'll try to be as such.

Quote from nate:

ok yeah, awesome run. let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

Thanks, and I appreciate all the feedback. I will utilize these things on my next attempts... assuming muscle memory decides to take over for the hell of it. Tongue

[quote="nate"]
interesting trau strat. it's not clear to me that this is faster than mine, though, since you have to move up to meet her for the last two hits.[/quote]
I've re-watch your strat for the Trau fight and compared them to mine.  I want to say that the time may be close to equal, but I think if done cleanly, yours may be a bit faster by maybe a second.  However, that's only for the first fight; during the rematch, your strat seems to be the clear winner even though I might try some ideas using the charged Eislanze for the sake of experimentation.

[quote="nate"]it's possible to use the fruegel earlier in the bottom room in zorne's stage. the timing is a little tight, but it probably saves a bit of time versus going rambo through there.[/quote]
Hm, I'm not sure I see where you're going with that.  If possible or whenever available, I would like to see how early you summon the Fruegel so I can get a visual on this strat.

[quote="nate"]i've gotten a liebea quick kill before and i'm assuming you have too. it's just very annoying, very inconsistent. seems impossible to predict her exact movement and the weapon is terrible.[/quote]
Yeah, I've gotten it before, but I don't think it's about predicting movement as much as being able to react to whether she decides to go "Spark Man" (which I would assume is most preferred) or goes "Magnet Man" as her first attack and then counterattack accordingly.  However, I will agree that the weakness weapon can be a hassle especially if she goes all "Magnet Man" on the first attack.

[quote="nate"]it's not necessary to jump over the electricity generating thing when it's not active in the second room of sichte's stage. due to the favorable timing, you can just slide straight through that room.[/quote]
Eh?  So the bottom electric generator has no hitbox, then?  If that's the case, then that would make sliding much easier.

[quote="nate"]very interesting that you take the left path just before the halfway point of the same stage. neither i nor 072 does that right now. it does look like it may be faster.[/quote]
I don't see how the right side would be faster.  First, you have to wait for the electric bolts to fire while zig-zagging your way to a couple of ladders as opposed to the left as you just summon the Hund and get to the top right then and there.  Also, upon the next screen from taking the right route, you have to make a slightly longer trek to the other side where as you're already there from taking the left.

[quote="nate"]lol at the feedback loop riding fruegel. for some reason i was never able to do that myself.[/quote]
Heh, yeah.  That was funny, but looking back on it, I wonder if it's truly faster than running along with the wind assuming you run through the platforming and enemy obstacles smoothly.  That might be something to look into if it hasn't already.

[quote="nate"]ok, it's possible to kill the second gng skeleton in the third room of grolla's stage while you are so far to the left that it knocks it right out of the memory of the game. this means that you don't have to deal with it when you get there. it's not that difficult to do, but i have nonetheless managed to fail it many times. i'm not sure if you knew about this or not.[/quote]
Yeah,  I knew about that.  That was just a failed attempt to scroll it out of the screen.  Once it fails, I just go with it as I don't want to waste time messing around with it for too long.

[quote="nate"]it's almost certainly faster to use the hund instead of climbing the long ladder midway through the last room in grolla's stage.[/quote]
I suspected that, but at the time I wasn't thinking about it and went with what I knew at the current moment.

[quote="nate"]man, grolla is such a pain in the ass.[/quote]
QFT.  Her sword dashes are quite irritating, then there's her using her Grollschwert while time is slowed down, but I'm sure you know all about that already.

While on the subject of annoying bosses, as a quick aside, the only other boss than her (to me) that might be just as annoying is Lu... erm, "Heroe."  This is mostly because of the randomness of the rising platforms during the second half of the battle; even to the point that sometime the platform generator has to wait a couple of seconds just to send more platforms upward.  Pretty much any fight against "Heroe" that sends her to the rightmost side during her second phase is considered a slow fight.

[quote="nate"]shame about the r/l fight.[/quote]
Yeah, if it's not the first shot that does me in, it's either an accidental high shot or a late shot.  Of course, it could be worse; just as long as it doesn't hit the other twin, then it's salvageable.

[quote="nate"]i doubt your use of the fruegel in the first half of scratch's stage saved time ... i could be wrong, but even with the 1-2 interruptions by the dude in the background (during which you can simply jump and go at the same speed as you do riding the fruegel), sliding along the bottom seems like it must be faster to me. perhaps it would be good to time this level.[/quote]
This is pretty much one of my concerns of the run.  The reason I did this is because I don't want to deal with the shield attackers and the chance of getting caught by a tremor.  Not to mention squeezing through the two bombs to get to the bottom appears to be more trouble than it's worth.  That being said, the bottom route does seem to be faster, but I might improve on my original strat just a bit by using a charged Eisschwert earlier and using a Hund rather than climbing the ladder.  So pretty much more experimenting.

[quote="nate"]interesting use of the fruegel in the falling blocks -> stairsteps room. i believe 072 uses the hund there now. this is probably too close to call. either strat scares the shit out of me. i'm definitely not cut out to run this game.[/quote]
LOL, but seriously, I can see using the Hund as a viable strat if one can get to the bottom of the ladder quick enough.  It's something else I can look into as another option.

[quote="nate"]it's possible to skip the first block in the next room. just jump under it to the second nonmoving platform. it saves time because your proximity is what triggers the blocks to appear.[/quote]
Now this is good to know.  No more wasting time for the first falling block.

[quote="nate"]yeah, lol ... eifer's level. as far as i can tell, you are colliding with the top of the mm1 hopping thing (the one not moving, in the background). in this room i just call out the fluegel as soon as possible and ride it up and jump around to the top. i doubt using the hund is faster, so you shouldn't have to worry about this happening again. afaik you should be able to see this in my run.[/quote]
But that makes things make even less sense as it should only be background and not have a hitbox at all (lousy programming).  Well regardless, I want to say using the Hund is faster because you don't have to wait for one of those rising platforms to reach a specific height to make use of the Fluegel while you can just summon the Hund on the platform an jump straight there without much waiting.  However, until I can use the Hund more reliably in that screen, I may switch to the Fluegel for the time being.

[quote="nate"]yeah, good use of the time stopper at the end of the stage.[/quote]
Thanks, but it's not perfect.  Getting caught in that small corner negated the full effect of what the slow time could do.  If that was executed to its full effect, I can maintain to the very end of the stage and beat the first of the last two ghost skulls to the last set of rising platforms, in which, by that time, the time slow will end and I can just focus on beating the second one near the boss door.

[quote="nate"]eifer is such a bitch and i don't have anything to tell you unfortunately.[/quote]
You'd think dodging her attacks would be much simpler.  I just can't figure out the timing as of yet.

Also, before moving on, I must note that at the very beginning of Eifer's stage, it is possible to slide completely thoughout the first screens of rising platforms; this includes sliding over the gaps that are along the way.  The problem is the timing and rhythm of the slides needed to make it to the end of the first area are iffy at best and makes this strat extremely risky since a miss may result in a lost life.  Just mentioning this to those that might want to try it... so, good luck on that.

[quote="nate"]there's no need to wait to use the hund in the next room. just walk left a bit. of course, it's not clear to me whether it actually saves a substantial amount of time, but you might try it out. i'd be surprised if this weren't also shown in my run i posted here.[/quote]
You might need to show this as I reviewed your run, and it didn't show what you are saying.  It would be quite interesting to see this in action to get a better understanding.

[quote="nate"]probably some work on memorizing pamela's movements would help lower your time. she is quite predictable, especially for the first part of the fight, which will be almost the entire fight if you are doing well.[/quote]
I do indeed know of Pamela's movements.  That was just a badly executed fight, unfortunately.  Most of my jumps were rather late; not to mention that I don't get to her often during run attempts since I screw up way before then and reset.  So I was a bit rusty in fighting her.

[quote="nate"]hahaha. ouch. i don't even attempt to cycle over to trau's weapon against drac. in the menu it's just a single press of left on the dpad, so i doubt cycling is even faster unless you are frezy or something.[/quote]
It's amazing how things change in recording situations because I'm usually more successful at the weapon switch strat against our Drac-analog several times before this fight off-screen.  I plan to keep trying it, but also alternate to the pause-switch strat as well since the weakness weapon is just one left click away.

[quote="nate"]again, not really sure what you're going for with trau. you should probably just stick to my strat.[/quote]
Pretty much talked about this on the first discussion of the fight.  To be fair, however, I completely forgot that during the rematches for Trau and Zorne, neither of them helped the other and I had the first fight strat in the head, not that it helps much.

[quote="nate"]not sure why you're so timid against iris machine ii. just throw the fackel all the time.[/quote]
Well, needless hesitation on firing when invincibility frames on the Iris Machine and dodging fast attacking energy balls can do wonders on a player's psyche.  Seriously though, a more aggressive approach is a must, so I'll try to be as such.

[quote="nate"]ok yeah, awesome run. let me know if you need me to clarify anything.[/quote]
Thanks, and I appreciate all the feedback.  I will utilize these things on my next attempts... assuming muscle memory decides to take over for the hell of it. :P