Red Alert 2 Run (relaunched [11-14-2008], progress First Post)

2008-12-25 12:28:38 pm

Any response from Mike to that PM?

2008-12-25 09:53:26 pm

Yes, after sending another PM clarifying some stuff we got clearance to use the in-game (made visible during game play) timer.

Now I can't recall the situation in every mission (was a couple of years ago I played every soviet mission and even longer ago I played all the allies) but for every mission that never has got a timer present one will simply be added and for every mission that always has got a timer present there is no need to add one (e.g. Super Weapon countdowns).

For missions with timers present at times, but not always, the situation is a bit more complicated since the game will not allow two global timers present at the same time, i.e. one and the same timer visible during these missions won't be possible. This does not pose a problem though, all that needs to be done is to add a timer whenever one isn't present, so no biggie at all.
The only reason I'm telling you about this mere technicality is so you'll know why you'll have to go through the inconvenience of summarizing several timers to get your total time for these missions (as opposed to just having one).

I'll try having timers added to most mission within 24hrs from now. Other than that I'll keep it simple; I'll have them start at 0 and count upwards, always displaying their value rounded down to the nearest second (just as most other upwards counting counters that does not display fractions).

Yes, after sending another PM clarifying some stuff we got clearance to use the in-game (made visible during game play) timer.

Now I can't recall the situation in every mission (was a couple of years ago I played every soviet mission and even longer ago I played all the allies) but for every mission that never has got a timer present one will simply be added and for every mission that always has got a timer present there is no need to add one (e.g. Super Weapon countdowns).

For missions with timers present at times, but not always, the situation is a bit more complicated since the game will not allow two global timers present at the same time, i.e. one and the same timer visible during these missions won't be possible. This does not pose a problem though, all that needs to be done is to add a timer whenever one isn't present, so no biggie at all.
The only reason I'm telling you about this mere technicality is so you'll know why you'll have to go through the inconvenience of summarizing several timers to get your total time for these missions (as opposed to just having one).

I'll try having timers added to most mission within 24hrs from now. Other than that I'll keep it simple; I'll have them start at 0 and count upwards, always displaying their value rounded down to the nearest second (just as most other upwards counting counters that does not display fractions).

TheVoid

2008-12-26 02:47:24 am

Ok, so the in-game timer it is.
Even though it continues ticking, the actual level run time should be stopped at the "Mission Accomplished" screen since control ends there. I'm just saying for clarification.

But when 2 or more Super Weapons are built, the timers will stack on top of each other. Which makes me think that it should be possible somehow to have the in-game timer just start at the beginning (And stay in the lowest corner part) and keep on ticking. Any other timers would just stack on top of it, just like they would when you build more Super Weapons. Should be possible, I think... Wink

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2008-12-26 01:27:16 pm

2008-12-26 10:36:00 am

Quote from TheVoid:

Even though it continues ticking, the actual level run time should be stopped at the "Mission Accomplished" screen since control ends there.

I'd vote no on that.
Even though you lose control and even though it does say "Mission Accomplished" you haven't actually beaten the mission yet, the game has just disabled your input (just as it can do at the start of a mission) and displayed a sprite. If you some how do manage to get all your units killed (or otherwise trigger a mission fail) while "Mission Accomplished" is displayed it will change to "Mission Failed" and you will fail the mission rather than accomplish it.
So a mission is both technically and practically not beaten until that game-freeze that occurs the split seconds before you're taken to the aftermath menu.

Quote from TheVoid:

But when 2 or more Super Weapons are built, the timers will stack on top of each other.

SuperWeapon timers aren't "global" timers, each team's(color's) weapon's timer has got a unique ID. These can fail to stack too, if for instance a team was to have two of the same Weapon there would still only be one counter present.

NEWS
I was thinking I'd create a blank mission with only a timer present so one could record it with lowest possible slowdown and thus get a very accurate game-play/real-time ratio which would be used when translating the in-game timer to real time for SDA purposes (even though I think they'd settle just fine with a 2/1 ratio since actual real-time isn't all that important when ther's an accurate and consistent timer present in-game).
To my surprise though, after having totally nullified soviet01, I loaded the mission and the timer was moving 30 times as fast!? Practically this meant that, if the game runs at 60fps, the timer increased by one second per frame making its minutes behave like real-time seconds and its seconds behave like a kind of fractions (but only 60 per second as opposed to 100).

So apparently some kind of modifier to the timers speed in relation to the game speed exists (yes the timer did slow down when I changed game speed, so it wasn't totally out of control). If it's easy to fine tune the timers speed one might want try to cheat by slowing it down a tiny bit. However, I believe this should be detectable during verification by comparing the timer to build speed and/or fire rate of units visible in the video.
It's not all unpleasant news though, a positive possibility this brings is that we could perhaps have the timer move in this increased speed, for one because it matched real-time very well (even though it seemed to increase by approximately 61 secs per minute rather than 60) but primarily because it would mean frame precise timing.

I need to look into this specific thing more before I can say anything for sure though.

EDIT: I accidentally removed something essential for the timer while I in all haste stripped the mission file of all unnecessary content and it's fortunately not possible to fine tune it at all (least not this way), it's either regular timer speed or 30x faster.

[quote="TheVoid"]
Even though it continues ticking, the actual level run time should be stopped at the "Mission Accomplished" screen since control ends there.
[/quote]

I'd vote no on that.
Even though you lose control and even though it does say "Mission Accomplished" you haven't actually beaten the mission yet, the game has just disabled your input (just as it can do at the start of a mission) and displayed a sprite. If you some how do manage to get all your units killed (or otherwise trigger a mission fail) while "Mission Accomplished" is displayed it will change to "Mission Failed" and you will fail the mission rather than accomplish it.
So a mission is both technically and practically not beaten until that game-freeze that occurs the split seconds before you're taken to the aftermath menu.

[quote="TheVoid"]
But when 2 or more Super Weapons are built, the timers will stack on top of each other.
[/quote]

SuperWeapon timers aren't "global" timers, each team's(color's) weapon's timer has got a unique ID. These can fail to stack too, if for instance a team was to have two of the same Weapon there would still only be one counter present.

NEWS
I was thinking I'd create a blank mission with only a timer present so one could record it with lowest possible slowdown and thus get a very accurate game-play/real-time ratio which would be used when translating the in-game timer to real time for SDA purposes (even though I think they'd settle just fine with a 2/1 ratio since actual real-time isn't all that important when ther's an accurate and consistent timer present in-game).
To my surprise though, after having totally nullified soviet01, I loaded the mission and the timer was moving 30 times as fast!? Practically this meant that, if the game runs at 60fps, the timer increased by one second per frame making its minutes behave like real-time seconds and its seconds behave like a kind of fractions (but only 60 per second as opposed to 100).

So apparently some kind of modifier to the timers speed in relation to the game speed exists (yes the timer did slow down when I changed game speed, so it wasn't totally out of control). If it's easy to fine tune the timers speed one might want try to cheat by slowing it down a tiny bit. However, I believe this should be detectable during verification by comparing the timer to build speed and/or fire rate of units visible in the video.
It's not all unpleasant news though, a positive possibility this brings is that we could perhaps have the timer move in this increased speed, for one because it matched real-time very well (even though it seemed to increase by approximately 61 secs per minute rather than 60) but primarily because it would mean frame precise timing.

I need to look into this specific thing more before I can say anything for sure though.

EDIT: I accidentally removed something essential for the timer while I in all haste stripped the mission file of all unnecessary content and it's fortunately not possible to fine tune it at all (least not this way), it's either regular timer speed or 30x faster.

edman3d

2008-12-26 10:10:41 pm

ow

I can't believe this RA2 thread is still stuck on the timing phase..I love SDA, but I wish (based on all this timing logic) you guys would just look at your clock, play, then look at it again.

Like, for the love of god, disregard perfectly accurate timing based on the game, SDA, the space-time-continuum, astrophysics, and just play the god damn game for fun (and the enjoyment of casual watchers who won't put it a hit out on you for a 3 second miscalculation).

/nerdrage

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2008-12-26 11:35:32 pm

2008-12-26 10:52:32 pm

Ok, so I couldn't make the timer frame precise for missions where the game needed to use the global timer for countdowns. Each time a countdown reached zero and I instantly started a new timer it was of by like a few fractions and I couldn't live with that. I found a workaround but it required the timer to always count down, as opposed to up. which in practice would have meant that some missions would have its timer counting up while some would have several, all counting down, one at a time.

However! Because TheVoid mentioned the stacking of SuperWeapon timers, and I took the time to explain why they could stack, I got an idea. Instead of using the global timer I created a dummy team with an invisible, indestructible, and insignificant dummy structure (placed outside the map boundaries) and gave this dummy structure a dummy SuperWeapon. Simply put, I created a unique timer Smiley

Pros: It's unique and will not be bothered by any other timer and can thus be shown during any entire mission.
Con: It can't count up, only down. LIVE WITH IT!

Also, I could easily add the mission name in front of the counter but I'll go with nothing unless requested otherwise.

EDIT: And uhm yeah. I obviously didn't have most soviet missions ready within 24hrs, sorry. Instead I'll try having them All done within the next 24.

Ok, so I couldn't make the timer frame precise for missions where the game needed to use the global timer for countdowns. Each time a countdown reached zero and I instantly started a new timer it was of by like a few fractions and I couldn't live with that. I found a workaround but it required the timer to always count down, as opposed to up. which in practice would have meant that some missions would have its timer counting up while some would have several, all counting down, one at a time.

However! Because TheVoid mentioned the stacking of SuperWeapon timers, and I took the time to explain why they could stack, I got an idea. Instead of using the global timer I created a dummy team with an invisible, indestructible, and insignificant dummy structure (placed outside the map boundaries) and gave this dummy structure a dummy SuperWeapon. Simply put, I created a unique timer :)
Pros: It's unique and will not be bothered by any other timer and can thus be shown during any entire mission.
Con: It can't count up, only down. LIVE WITH IT!

Also, I could easily add the mission name in front of the counter but I'll go with nothing unless requested otherwise.

EDIT: And uhm yeah. I obviously didn't have most soviet missions ready within 24hrs, sorry. Instead I'll try having them All done within the next 24.

TheVoid

2008-12-27 02:57:10 am

Quote from BrutalAl:

Pros: It's unique and will not be bothered by any other timer and can thus be shown during any entire mission.
Con: It can't count up, only down. LIVE WITH IT!

Awesome. I don't think it would be a problem if it counts down. It'll look a little bit more confusing maybe but it's not too bad Wink

*Runner hurry up! Only 1 hour left !!!*

Quote:

Also, I could easily add the mission name in front of the counter but I'll go with nothing unless requested otherwise.

Hmm... If it doesn't occupy too much of the view then it would be nice I think.

Quote:

EDIT: And uhm yeah. I obviously didn't have most soviet missions ready within 24hrs, sorry. Instead I'll try having them All done within the next 24.

Take your time.

About the "stopping the run time at the Mission Accomplished screen", I guess it makes sense what you said. It has never happened to me but the units and everything still continue after the screen so I guess it could be possible to still fail the mission Smiley

I've got one question. In order to make Soviet01 work with the in-game timer, you need to put the .map file in the RA2 directory and then start a New Game. But then how would it work with the other levels? After Soviet01 will there be an autosave for Soviet02 with the in-game timer in it? Otherwise it would be a pain since then you would need to play through all the previous levels everytime... Grin

[quote="BrutalAl"]Pros: It's unique and will not be bothered by any other timer and can thus be shown during any entire mission.
Con: It can't count up, only down. LIVE WITH IT![/quote]
Awesome. I don't think it would be a problem if it counts down. It'll look a little bit more confusing maybe but it's not too bad ;) *Runner hurry up! Only 1 hour left !!!*

[quote]Also, I could easily add the mission name in front of the counter but I'll go with nothing unless requested otherwise.[/quote]
Hmm... If it doesn't occupy too much of the view then it would be nice I think.

[quote]EDIT: And uhm yeah. I obviously didn't have most soviet missions ready within 24hrs, sorry. Instead I'll try having them All done within the next 24.[/quote]
Take your time.

About the "stopping the run time at the Mission Accomplished screen", I guess it makes sense what you said. It has never happened to me but the units and everything still continue after the screen so I guess it could be possible to still fail the mission :)

I've got one question. In order to make Soviet01 work with the in-game timer, you need to put the .map file in the RA2 directory and then start a New Game. But then how would it work with the other levels? After Soviet01 will there be an autosave for Soviet02 with the in-game timer in it? Otherwise it would be a pain since then you would need to play through all the previous levels everytime... ;D

BrutalAl

2008-12-27 08:40:06 am

Quote:

Hmm... If it doesn't occupy too much of the view then it would be nice I think.

Well, I say that would depend on what resolution you're playing in. It doesn't say just "Red Dawn" but rather "Operation: Red Dawn" (same with every other mission) which is not a lot of text if you're playing in 1024x768 (or higher, if that is allowed) but quite the lot if you're playing it in 600x480.
Have a look: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7245/600x480zi2.jpg
Btw, I could also have it displayed in any native color of our choice, for instance gray or white. But as of right now I go with red for sovs and blue for allies. It could however prove wise to have it in white though since that color tends to preserve quality better than blue or red (agains a black background) when being "de-qualified" by a codec.

Quote:

But then how would it work with the other levels? After Soviet01 will there be an autosave for Soviet02 with the in-game timer in it?

Yes, if the modified mission file is in your directory the autosave for the next mission will have the timer in it, but you can not load an old (without timer) autosave and expect the timer to be there. However, you can finish any timer-less mission (load an old save) and still have the next mission be with a timer. So yeah, no worries there.

[quote]
Hmm... If it doesn't occupy too much of the view then it would be nice I think.
[/quote]
Well, I say that would depend on what resolution you're playing in. It doesn't say just "Red Dawn" but rather "Operation: Red Dawn" (same with every other mission) which is not a lot of text if you're playing in 1024x768 (or higher, if that is allowed) but quite the lot if you're playing it in 600x480.
Have a look: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7245/600x480zi2.jpg
Btw, I could also have it displayed in any native color of our choice, for instance gray or white. But as of right now I go with red for sovs and blue for allies. It could however prove wise to have it in white though since that color tends to preserve quality better than blue or red (agains a black background) when being "de-qualified" by a codec.

[quote]But then how would it work with the other levels? After Soviet01 will there be an autosave for Soviet02 with the in-game timer in it?[/quote]
Yes, if the modified mission file is in your directory the autosave for the next mission will have the timer in it, but you can not load an old (without timer) autosave and expect the timer to be there. However, you can finish any timer-less mission (load an old save) and still have the next mission be with a timer. So yeah, no worries there.

TheVoid

2008-12-27 10:06:29 am

Quote from BrutalAl:

Have a look: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7245/600x480zi2.jpg

Still doesn't look too bad in my opinion.

Codecs like x264 have issues with the colour red, so preferably some other colour should be used. White is maybe nice yes.

Quote:

Yes, if the modified mission file is in your directory the autosave for the next mission will have the timer in it, but you can not load an old (without timer) autosave and expect the timer to be there. However, you can finish any timer-less mission (load an old save) and still have the next mission be with a timer. So yeah, no worries there.

Sweet

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2008-12-27 10:09:33 pm

2008-12-27 07:22:05 pm

All Soviet missions, white timer text with mission name visible; http://www.megaupload.com/se/?d=LJV071YK

Just unrar and place the maps02.mix file in your RA2 directory.
Loading an old save, entering the menu, and select "Abort Mission" -> "Restart" will also reload the mission with the timer visible.

Gogogo!

EDIT: Btw, make sure you don't have any .map mission files left in the RA2 directory (e.g. sov01t.map) or the game will load those files rather than the ones in the maps02.mix file.

TheVoid

2008-12-28 02:43:29 am

Seems to work good with the restarting of savegames and such, colour looks nice too Smiley

Did Mike also mention how the time will be displayed on SDA? Because I'm pretty sure it won't be displayed as something like 51:53. That would be a 8:07 and the end time was 4:03, so it's almost double. But you can't just slice it in half, right? Because of slowdown stuff. So the 8:07 would be the final time then I guess?

Now rooster needs to check this thing.

ExplodingCabbage

2008-12-28 07:11:13 am

I think a simple and consistent system (i.e. division by a number close to 2, probably best to choose whatever multiple of 0.1 brings the timer times, on average, closest to real time) of converting the timer times to something approximating real time is the most sensible way to go, since as you say declaring the time to be 8:07 when it was only 4 minutes of real time seems absurd. This would of course need to be explained on the game page.

Edit: Alternatively, give both a time in real seconds and a time in game seconds, on the understanding that only a run that beats the game seconds time will obsolete yours. This may be unnacceptable to you if though if you're uncomfortable about declaring the real time at all.

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2008-12-28 11:49:14 am

2008-12-28 09:46:06 am

I'd guess (mike didn't say) that on SDA the time will be displayed as time elapsed (as opposed to time left), but only after it is brought closer to real time using a multiplier.
Since we use a countdown timer we mustn't forget that the in-game timer now displays the elapsed time rounded up. I believe the SDA standard is to use seconds as displayed (if displayed) as is, and not rounded up. I therefore think that when our in-game timer displays 58:59 the elapsed time should be considered to be 1:00 and not 1:01.

As for what multiplier to use I'd say 0.5 (i.e. division by two) even though 0.5 might turn out to miss real time by perhaps half a second per minute (with no slowdowns present) it really does seem close enough (and it really does seem to be what the developers were aiming at). Not to mention that SDA times (times as displayed on SDA) will always be X.0 or X.5 which is simple and clean.
EDIT: Use of any other multiplier would result in SDA times looking like X.213 which in turn could give the false impression of us timing attempts with frame precision, which is far from entirely true.

Also, I might (probably) have been wrong about the real/end-time starting at 10 sec. I know for sure it does in Multiplayer but I'm starting to think that it doesn't in Singelplayer, but instead it was me who always suffered from about 10 seconds of slowdown (give or take few secs) at any given attempt at sov01.
Looking at TheVoid's times he's for most of the time only off (in-game/2 vs real-time, disregarding +10 from the previous calculations) by either 0.0, 0.5 or 1.0 seconds. However, during his crown attempt the real-time missed by an entire 7.0 seconds.

Quote:

End time was 2:44 (!) Smiley

In-game time was 54:45. So that would be a 5:15/2+10 = 2:47.5.

So to sum it all up, in my opinion
Time to be displayed on SDA = (3599 - 'in-game timer as displayed at freeze')sec * 0.5
(3599 instead of 3600 cancels out the roundup)

I'd guess (mike didn't say) that on SDA the time will be displayed as time elapsed (as opposed to time left), but only after it is brought closer to real time using a multiplier.
Since we use a countdown timer we mustn't forget that the in-game timer now displays the elapsed time rounded up. I believe the SDA standard is to use seconds as displayed (if displayed) as is, and not rounded up. I therefore think that when our in-game timer displays 58:59 the elapsed time should be considered to be 1:00 and not 1:01.

As for what multiplier to use I'd say 0.5 (i.e. division by two) even though 0.5 might turn out to miss real time by perhaps half a second per minute (with no slowdowns present) it really does seem close enough (and it really does seem to be what the developers were aiming at). Not to mention that SDA times (times as displayed on SDA) will always be X.0 or X.5 which is simple and clean.
[b]EDIT:[/b] Use of any other multiplier would result in SDA times looking like X.213 which in turn could give the false impression of us timing attempts with frame precision, which is far from entirely true.

Also, I might (probably) have been wrong about the real/end-time starting at 10 sec. I know for sure it does in Multiplayer but I'm starting to think that it doesn't in Singelplayer, but instead it was me who always suffered from about 10 seconds of slowdown (give or take few secs) at any given attempt at sov01.
Looking at TheVoid's times he's for most of the time only off (in-game/2 vs real-time, disregarding +10 from the previous calculations) by either 0.0, 0.5 or 1.0 seconds. However, during his crown attempt the real-time missed by an entire 7.0 seconds. 
[quote]End time was 2:44 (!) :) In-game time was 54:45. So that would be a 5:15/2+10 = 2:47.5.[/quote]

So to sum it all up, in my opinion
Time to be displayed on SDA = (3599 - 'in-game timer as displayed at freeze')sec * 0.5
[i](3599 instead of 3600 cancels out the roundup)[/i]

20-100

2008-12-29 10:41:07 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

If you guys can assure me timing is correct I'd love to provide some competition or at least come up with some creative ideas to provide certain missions. I'm a pretty good online player so I've got a shot at executing missions close to perfectly, just very little mission knowledge (although I did the campaign a couple of times).

At the very least I'll be interested to see what you guys can come up with Wink

gia

2008-12-29 12:05:10 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

why are you dividing by two? if you are going by ingame timer and the timer is consistent then there's no need to make it match real time

BrutalAl

2008-12-29 08:10:46 pm

Quote from gia:

why are you dividing by two? if you are going by ingame timer and the timer is consistent then there's no need to make it match real time

For one because its format isn't even close (when playing at default speed) to actual seconds. But also because the game itself isn't using that format to time missions, meaning that anyone, even though familiar with the game, would not be familiar with timing missions like that.

Both of the above circumstances may or may not be reason enough to motivate a translation of in-game format to real-time format, but there is also a 3rd, main circumstance, motivating a translation. The game already has got an official way of timing missions!
The game's official way is to simply measure real-time but due to inconsistent slowdowns during game-play the timing itself becomes inconsistent and thus faulty. Non the less this is the game's native way of timing mission and it is thus this real-time format that people will be familiar with.

Simply put: 'In-game'/2* = 'official real-time without the inconsistent slowdowns'
You could say that we don't really want to change the game's official timing format, just make it fully accurate and consistent.

*As or right now, this isn't final just yet though.

[quote="gia"]
why are you dividing by two? if you are going by ingame timer and the timer is consistent then there's no need to make it match real time
[/quote]

For one because its format isn't even close (when playing at default speed) to actual seconds. But also because the game itself isn't using that format to time missions, meaning that anyone, even though familiar with the game, would not be familiar with timing missions like that.

Both of the above circumstances may or may not be reason enough to motivate a translation of in-game format to real-time format, but there is also a 3rd, main circumstance, motivating a translation. The game already has got an official way of timing missions!
The game's official way is to simply measure real-time but due to inconsistent slowdowns during game-play the timing itself becomes inconsistent and thus faulty. Non the less this is the game's native way of timing mission and it is thus this real-time format that people will be familiar with.

Simply put: 'In-game'/2* = 'official real-time [i]without the inconsistent slowdowns[/i]'
You could say that we don't really want to change the game's official timing format, just make it fully accurate and consistent.

[i]*As or right now, this isn't final just yet though.[/i]

gia

2008-12-30 11:50:40 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Not fully accurate since you drop data, while I still prefer my position I now realize you are technically dropping the milliseconds and that is what is done to every run on the site at the moment except few so...

*btw my position is keeping records in the highest precision possible that is deemed accurate. In this case the unofficial timer as is, or frame count@fps for fraps recordings for real-time timing, etc.

rooster

2009-01-11 05:35:26 pm

Cute and Cuddly Lemming

Wow, activity.

I'm back from vacation and I see alot has been done. From what I gather we replace the original mission files by ones modified to show the in-game timer and use that as timing?

Good to see activity! And tUP for that Soviet01 strategy.