Real Time or In-Game Time Discussion for smash 64

2015-04-15 09:35:34 pm

Many members of the smash 64 speedrunning community are starting to show interest in trying to get good runs submitted to SDA, but as the timing methods used between SDA and the community differ, none of the runs that anyone in the community does are submittable. I'm wondering if it is possible if we were to discuss the possibility of changing the timing method from In-Game Time to Real Time. I talked with multiple members of the smash 64 speedrunning community, and everyone is on board with this, and many of them are willing to be involved in the discussion as well.

To start it off, here is, now, my copy-paste description of why the smash 64 community uses Real Time, and no longer uses In-Game Time:

Short version: The timer rounds to the nest whole number second, meaning using the old method of in-game time is actually inaccurate (by as much as 14 seconds). The Smash 64 speedrunning community no longer uses in-game time, and uses real time, as it is a better method of timing. Removing the timer (infinite time) also saves about a second in the score display of each stage (10-12 seconds total).

Long Version:

In the past, speedruns were done using in-game time. The timer would start from a time (usually 5:00), and count down, until the runner completes the stage, in which it would display a time (e.g. 4:55). The runner would then take the difference, and mark that as the time it took to complete the stage (in this case, 5 seconds). The runner would then do this for every stage, and add up all the times to get a final total in-game time in the run.

This method has several flaws.

First, the in-game timer rounds up to the next whole number second. In the example I gave above, the timer displayed 4:55. However, the actual time the runner could have gotten could vary anywhere between 4:54.01 and 4:55.00. This means that the total time spent on the stage could vary anywhere between 5.00 to 5.99. This leads to up to a second of inaccuracy on each stage (14 stages total), meaning a final time could be as far as 14 seconds off. For example, say someone got a final time of 3:00. 3:00 could have a time varying anywhere from 3:00.00 to 3:13.86. This inaccuracy becomes very significant when two runs of a similar time are compared with each other.

Second, Due to the rounding feature, there are some stages where a runner can run a level and already know the result they will get. I have seen some runners of in-game time put down the time they will get on a stage before they even start the stage, because they will get a time within that second (e.g. Bonus Stages). Similarly, there are some stages where if a strat is not performed optimally, a loss of a few frames actually makes the timer move to the next second, losing a full second. The common example I can think of is DK in the Link stage (very easy, 5 stock). If DK does everything optimally, it can result in 4 in-game seconds for that stage. If DK is slow anywhere in the strat, it will result in a 5 second stage. A split second should not cost a second.

Lastly, between stages, the timer doesn't count, so runners can take a short break. I know this sounds stupid, and may sound like something that shouldn't ever happen, but I have seen some runners stop near the end of the run, look at their splits, see how far ahead or behind they are, then continue. I have seen other runners stop, stretch out their hands, or grab a quick drink of something, then continue. None of this gets added to the time, because it's not part of the in-game timer.

So all that said, the speedrunning community for this game no longer uses in-game time, and uses real time. We've been using real time for basically a year and a half now, and everybody agrees with the reasons for the change.

Thread title:

Many members of the smash 64 speedrunning community are starting to show interest in trying to get good runs submitted to SDA, but as the timing methods used between SDA and the community differ, none of the runs that anyone in the community does are submittable.  I'm wondering if it is possible if we were to discuss the possibility of changing the timing method from In-Game Time to Real Time.  I talked with multiple members of the smash 64 speedrunning community, and everyone is on board with this, and many of them are willing to be involved in the discussion as well.

To start it off, here is, now, my copy-paste description of why the smash 64 community uses Real Time, and no longer uses In-Game Time:

Short version: The timer rounds to the nest whole number second, meaning using the old method of in-game time is actually inaccurate (by as much as 14 seconds). The Smash 64 speedrunning community no longer uses in-game time, and uses real time, as it is a better method of timing. Removing the timer (infinite time) also saves about a second in the score display of each stage (10-12 seconds total).

Long Version:

In the past, speedruns were done using in-game time. The timer would start from a time (usually 5:00), and count down, until the runner completes the stage, in which it would display a time (e.g. 4:55). The runner would then take the difference, and mark that as the time it took to complete the stage (in this case, 5 seconds). The runner would then do this for every stage, and add up all the times to get a final total in-game time in the run.

This method has several flaws.

First, the in-game timer rounds up to the next whole number second. In the example I gave above, the timer displayed 4:55. However, the actual time the runner could have gotten could vary anywhere between 4:54.01 and 4:55.00. This means that the total time spent on the stage could vary anywhere between 5.00 to 5.99. This leads to up to a second of inaccuracy on each stage (14 stages total), meaning a final time could be as far as 14 seconds off. For example, say someone got a final time of 3:00. 3:00 could have a time varying anywhere from 3:00.00 to 3:13.86. This inaccuracy becomes very significant when two runs of a similar time are compared with each other.

Second, Due to the rounding feature, there are some stages where a runner can run a level and already know the result they will get. I have seen some runners of in-game time put down the time they will get on a stage before they even start the stage, because they will get a time within that second (e.g. Bonus Stages). Similarly, there are some stages where if a strat is not performed optimally, a loss of a few frames actually makes the timer move to the next second, losing a full second. The common example I can think of is DK in the Link stage (very easy, 5 stock). If DK does everything optimally, it can result in 4 in-game seconds for that stage. If DK is slow anywhere in the strat, it will result in a 5 second stage. A split second should not cost a second.

Lastly, between stages, the timer doesn't count, so runners can take a short break. I know this sounds stupid, and may sound like something that shouldn't ever happen, but I have seen some runners stop near the end of the run, look at their splits, see how far ahead or behind they are, then continue. I have seen other runners stop, stretch out their hands, or grab a quick drink of something, then continue. None of this gets added to the time, because it's not part of the in-game timer.

So all that said, the speedrunning community for this game no longer uses in-game time, and uses real time. We've been using real time for basically a year and a half now, and everybody agrees with the reasons for the change.

InprisonedShadow

2015-04-15 09:55:26 pm

Being a runner in the community, I agree & support the change to Real Time from In Game Time. Many runners as of late have been doing very well and have even succeeded in getting a time faster than some of the IGT's. With many new times being founded, using RT, I feel like it's a good idea to replace the old with the new.

Also in my own experience I find it just a lot easier to use RT. Using In Game Time isn't as simple as using RT. Making possible runners lose interest. We've been expanding the community and everyone says they enjoy using RT because it's quick and accurate. That being said, changing from IGT to RT would be the best way to go about Smash 64 Speedrunning.

DK28

2015-04-16 12:59:51 pm

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

I'll chime in as well. Here's a post of mine from a discussion that's occuring in a different PM:

I'll voice my thoughts here, as a current/active Smash 64 runner.

As the first Smash 64 runner for SDA, I've always ran this game with in-game timing. My DK runs are that way, my Ness run is that way and my soon-to-come Captain Falcon run also uses in-game time.

Having said that, I've also spoken with Ghilie and Pishkay about timing and I feel that we should actually create seperate categories. Not having the timer on does give an immediate time save as mentioned, due to the game not scoring your time bonus after each round. Also, there can be some play changes to avoid other bonuses (No miss, etc).

Given that there are already runs on site and that I currently still run this game using round times, they don't directly compare in real time. The easiest solution, given the drastic differences in timing, would be seperate categories. In my opinion. When you're dealing with a run that's only a few minutes to begin with, a few seconds makes a big difference.

To add to this: Using certain strats to "legally" manipulate the timer is totally legit. Yeah, you may cut the particular second mark by using certain strats, but that's the idea. Then a RTA strat would be different because there is no concern for saving that tenth of a second. (A good exemple is Captain's BTT 1 second failure. It's a very high 1 second)

A great game to compare would be Mega Man 9. There are runs for in-game time and real time. You use different moves and pauses to gain time, etc. Therefore, I say going the route of different categories is the easiest solution.

I'll chime in as well.  Here's a post of mine from a discussion that's occuring in a different PM:

I'll voice my thoughts here, as a current/active Smash 64 runner.

As the first Smash 64 runner for SDA, I've always ran this game with in-game timing.  My DK runs are that way, my Ness run is that way and my soon-to-come Captain Falcon run also uses in-game time.

Having said that, I've also spoken with Ghilie and Pishkay about timing and I feel that we should actually create seperate categories.  Not having the timer on does give an immediate time save as mentioned, due to the game not scoring your time bonus after each round.  Also, there can be some play changes to avoid other bonuses (No miss, etc).

Given that there are already runs on site and that I currently still run this game using round times, they don't directly compare in real time.  The easiest solution, given the drastic differences in timing, would be seperate categories.  In my opinion.  When you're dealing with a run that's only a few minutes to begin with, a few seconds makes a big difference.

To add to this:  Using certain strats to "legally" manipulate the timer is totally legit.  Yeah, you may cut the particular second mark by using certain strats, but that's the idea.  Then a RTA strat would be different because there is no concern for saving that tenth of a second.  (A good exemple is Captain's BTT 1 second failure.  It's a very high 1 second)

A great game to compare would be Mega Man 9.  There are runs for in-game time and real time.  You use different moves and pauses to gain time, etc.  Therefore, I say going the route of different categories is the easiest solution.

pikashy

2015-04-16 04:14:42 pm

I don't know much about Mega Man 9, but the strats that are used in smash 64 do not change drastically due to in-game time or real time. So really, it's the exact same two runs, minimal difference if anything, just a different timing method so that there are two different WR's for essentially the exact same category.

Having two separate categories for essentially the same category makes it so that if someone gets a WR in one timing method, they need to do it all over again for the other timing method. This really doesn't make sense at all. Not only that, but even recently, InprisonedShadow was wanting to beat the most optimized time in a category, which at the time (I forget if he beat it) was your run. He then had to decide if he would use In-Game Time or Real Time, because one is the community timing method, and one is the SDA timing method. He mentioned that it was annoying that he had to choose between two methods of running, and that regardless of which he chose to use, his run would not count for the other method.

Having two separate categories just doesn't make sense in any way in my opinion, and pretty much the rest of the smash 64 speedrunning community agrees.

If you are worried that your in-game time runs are going to be lost if the change is made, they won't. In-Game Time runs are transferable to real time as well. We calculated the exact time difference between in-game time and real time due to the timer, so by using the real time of the current runs, and subtracting the time (I forget the exact time, somewhere around 11 seconds), we have an equivalent real time that is perfectly comparable. So your current in-game time runs are comparable to our real time runs. If that is your worry, that your runs are going to be lost, then that isn't a problem, and it can be done fairly.

I don't know much about Mega Man 9, but the strats that are used in smash 64 do not change drastically due to in-game time or real time.  So really, it's the exact same two runs, minimal difference if anything, just a different timing method so that there are two different WR's for essentially the exact same category.

Having two separate categories for essentially the same category makes it so that if someone gets a WR in one timing method, they need to do it all over again for the other timing method.  This really doesn't make sense at all.  Not only that, but even recently, InprisonedShadow was wanting to beat the most optimized time in a category, which at the time (I forget if he beat it) was your run.  He then had to decide if he would use In-Game Time or Real Time, because one is the community timing method, and one is the SDA timing method.  He mentioned that it was annoying that he had to choose between two methods of running, and that regardless of which he chose to use, his run would not count for the other method.

Having two separate categories just doesn't make sense in any way in my opinion, and pretty much the rest of the smash 64 speedrunning community agrees.

If you are worried that your in-game time runs are going to be lost if the change is made, they won't.  In-Game Time runs are transferable to real time as well.  We calculated the exact time difference between in-game time and real time due to the timer, so by using the real time of the current runs, and subtracting the time (I forget the exact time, somewhere around 11 seconds), we have an equivalent real time that is perfectly comparable.  So your current in-game time runs are comparable to our real time runs.  If that is your worry, that your runs are going to be lost, then that isn't a problem, and it can be done fairly.

InprisonedShadow

2015-04-16 04:20:19 pm

As I joined the community a year ago, I have seen no one else other than you run with IGT. I was aware of the SDA times, but the time has been cut down a lot, times over in both RT and IGT. So what would be the point of continuing IGT at this point? (Keep in mind I obviously respect your runs and all you've done in ssb64 speedrunning, not bashing or anything what so ever)

Separate categories would just completely overflow everything. Not only have times for all the characters, and sub categories (all unlockables, unlock luigi, etc.) But to have a whole other side just being IGT. Eventually things will get confusing and just make it look clustered.

Having duplicate categories, essentially for the same thing won't go over too well, without causing more problems, not mention confusion at the same time.

GhillieGuide

Edit history:

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:24:41 pm

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:19:15 pm

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:13:26 pm

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:12:41 pm

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:12:10 pm

GhillieGuide: 2015-04-16 10:11:23 pm

2015-04-16 10:05:05 pm

Being a smash 64 runner who ran on IGT and RT each for a period seriously I can say that measuring runs in IGT would make a it lot easier to collaborate with other runners(ex."9 on Mario Bros") and keep track of your mistakes with ease. Recording your run in real time means you have more variables to account for in order to optimize a run, you have version differences to account for, bonuses to take into account, and you have to mash buttons on screens to optimize.
I am fond of both methods but I choose RT because it is a much more accurate method of measuring how fast the run was completed and that satisfies my reptilian brains' need to compare myself to others rather nicely.

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2015-04-17 08:29:44 am

moooh: 2015-04-17 08:29:18 am

2015-04-17 07:42:31 am

Exoray

We discussed this a couple of days ago and we'll accept RT runs as a separate category for now and see at the need for phasing out IGT completely at a later time.
Feel free to continue the discussion for or against the existance of IGT here though, since it seems the community is still somewhat split on this.

pikashy

2015-04-20 12:05:28 pm

One of the reason I wanted to bring this up was because if one method ends up not being used, the runners who were using that method could no longer submit their runs to SDA. If, for example, IGT does get phased out later, and DK28 continues to do runs using IGT until then, all his runs he is doing is for nothing. Same thing goes for the other way, where if real time gets phased out, the runs done by everyone else are not submittable. I figured it would be better to bring this topic up earlier, as recently more people in the community have an interest in submitting times to SDA.

I am also doing this now because last Spring/Summer, I chose not to bring up an issue, and it caused 10 months of drama over whether something should be accepted or banned (it has now recently ended), so I'm hoping that by bringing this up earlier, the 'drama' gets reduced.

If people are willing to discuss this, I'll discuss this. If not, then I'll stay quiet on the topic for now (no point talking to myself Kappa).

Sorry if I am causing any inconveniences in any way.

One of the reason I wanted to bring this up was because if one method ends up not being used, the runners who were using that method could no longer submit their runs to SDA.  If, for example, IGT does get phased out later, and DK28 continues to do runs using IGT until then, all his runs he is doing is for nothing.  Same thing goes for the other way, where if real time gets phased out, the runs done by everyone else are not submittable.  I figured it would be better to bring this topic up earlier, as recently more people in the community have an interest in submitting times to SDA.

I am also doing this now because last Spring/Summer, I chose not to bring up an issue, and it caused 10 months of drama over whether something should be accepted or banned (it has now recently ended), so I'm hoping that by bringing this up earlier, the 'drama' gets reduced.

If people are willing to discuss this, I'll discuss this.  If not, then I'll stay quiet on the topic for now (no point talking to myself Kappa).

Sorry if I am causing any inconveniences in any way.

DK28

2015-04-20 04:38:42 pm

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

The easy thing to mention is that this decision has no bearing on you and yours submitting runs. Nor would any future desicion impede those runs. Different categories means exactly that. Just run and submit your stuff using IGT. They will be verified and processed like every other run. Even if things were to change in the future, any existing runs would not be affected by the new rules.

Short answer: Just produce and submit runs!