Questions about Diablo 2 (Any % RTA)

2013-08-11 03:06:47 am

I would like to speedrun D2 in this category, but I'm uncertain about the rules. I've been going through a lot of posts considering this category and there seems to be a lot of confusion about two things: fixed map seed and the "/players" setting.

1. Currently all Diablo 2 runs that are on SDA are using a fixed map seed, but is it also allowed in RTA?
2. None of the runs are using the players setting. Is it because it's considered a cheat? Because it's not according to Blizzard (Search for "cheat").

Thread title:

TheZedna

2013-08-12 03:07:02 am

Party%

1. I guess it would be allowed but it would cost a lot of time, getting the map you want. SDA runs are all segmented runs so it is a lot easier to get certain map patterns such as shrines etc. In RTA you would have to reset a lot.

2. I don't think it's because it's considered a cheat (it was an implemented feature for Singleplayer so why would it be a cheat?).
My guess is it is faster on players1. In any% where you basically rush through everything and only kill a couple of mobs on the way it might be faster to stay on players1 than to switch to other options (it is hard enough to kill some bosses on players1 because you are pretty underleveled throughout the whole run)
But I am not sure about that.

Onin

Edit history:

Onin: 2013-08-12 05:40:27 am

2013-08-12 05:18:11 am

As far as I know, the runs don't use a "fixed map seed" so much as simply extracting the game files of the created character to know what the map looks like in advance. You could do that in RTA as well, technically, though I think you'd only be able to see the Act 1 map. Of course a single-segment RTA run would be accepted.

I guess the reason no one uses /players 8 is simply a community decision. As long as everyone uses the same setting it doesn't make a difference anyway.

Zurreco

2013-08-12 02:12:19 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

1) The only way to have fixed map seed is to run the executable with an addition to the command line that will lock the seed in place. I think the code is something to the tune of "'//Diablo II.exe' -seedXXX," just like we use -w and -skiptobnet. The current runs do NOT do this: they roll their map upon character creation, scout the map, then replace the map and character files with the originals. Pretty sure locking the seed will also lock the RNG for shrines and mobs, and maybe even drops(?), so take that into account. I think that modifying the executable so as to lock all map seeds isn't quite hacking or anything, but I would personally frown upon it. A real time attempt that scouted beforehand is not explicitly real time. Also, have the admins even acknowledged that RTAs will get their own category?

2) We don't use the /playersX command because it was given a thumbs down from the get go. I'm quite sure that mikwuyma/Radix/whoever was in charge back then (maybe even LagDotCom) said that it should not be allowed, and we all accepted that. If you want to change that ruling or get clarification, you can run it by an admin, but I think it pretty healthily falls into the console mod category of "cheating." Just because the programmers implemented iddqd doesn't mean that Doom runs are allowed to use it.

So yeah, unless the admins give you the go ahead on RTA as a category, modifying the executable, and using an ingame mod, I don't think this is a viable run. I doubt you'll get those concessions, but I could be wrong.

1) The only way to have fixed map seed is to run the executable with an addition to the command line that will lock the seed in place.  I think the code is something to the tune of "'//Diablo II.exe' -seedXXX," just like we use -w and -skiptobnet.  The current runs do NOT do this: they roll their map upon character creation, scout the map, then replace the map and character files with the originals.  Pretty sure locking the seed will also lock the RNG for shrines and mobs, and maybe even drops(?), so take that into account.  I think that modifying the executable so as to lock all map seeds isn't quite hacking or anything, but I would personally frown upon it.  A [b]real time[/b] attempt that scouted beforehand is not explicitly real time.  Also, have the admins even acknowledged that RTAs will get their own category?

2) We don't use the /playersX command because it was given a thumbs down from the get go.  I'm quite sure that mikwuyma/Radix/whoever was in charge back then (maybe even LagDotCom) said that it should not be allowed, and we all accepted that.  If you want to change that ruling or get clarification, you can run it by an admin, but I think it pretty healthily falls into the console mod category of "cheating."  Just because the programmers implemented iddqd doesn't mean that Doom runs are allowed to use it.

So yeah, unless the admins give you the go ahead on RTA as a category, modifying the executable, and using an ingame mod, I don't think this is a viable run.  I doubt you'll get those concessions, but I could be wrong.

Onin

2013-08-12 02:24:19 pm

All currently posted runs are segmented. Single-segment runs (including RTA) are automatically a different category, and accepted, as long as they follow the guidelines. Whether finding a good seed beforehand is acceptable in an RTA is arguable, but if that -seed commandline works well I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed.

Zurreco

2013-08-12 03:38:52 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Single segment and RTA are not mutually inclusive, though. An RTA should technically not have any map selection/scouting done beforehand, which would be very detrimental to the run. Even if you did know the map beforehand, an SS that doesn't lock the map seed will have RNG variance, which can be very beneficial.

Feel free to submit an RTA, but it will only be considered an SS and won't hold ground against a properly prepared SS run.

Onin

2013-08-12 03:44:32 pm

As far as SDA is concerned, RTA is equivalent to Single Segment With Resets.

In a proper RTA, I don't think you'd be allowed to create a character, scout the map, then copy the files and start a new game from there. You would, however, be allowed to research a good seed and create a new character with that seed command.

Endless

Edit history:

Endless: 2013-08-12 04:06:08 pm

Endless: 2013-08-12 04:05:49 pm

2013-08-12 04:05:27 pm

/players is not a cheat; it's an intended gameplay element with tradeoffs. I'm somewhat surprised it was ever denied, but unfortunately it'll likely be denied in the future for the sake of consistency with existing runs.

Zurreco

2013-08-12 04:14:09 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Well, since you can already reset an SS without losing the character or the pre-scouted map, it honestly sounds like there is no legit difference between the two (SDA wise). The only change is that you are locking the RNG by modifying the executable, which is already sketchy, and you are losing RNG on mobs and drops. I can't think of a good reason to go for an "RTA" over a traditional Diablo II SS if you're already going to be scouting the map this way.

If we want to talk about what is proper or not for an RTA, you should have a fresh, unscouted map from the get go. Freezard's Diablo III runs are proper RTAs, and I feel that those set the bar.

Quote from Endless:

/players is not a cheat; it's an intended gameplay element with tradeoffs. I'm somewhat surprised it was ever denied, but unfortunately it'll likely be denied in the future for the sake of consistency with existing runs.

No one is saying that /playersX is a cheating per se, but it was decided that it was borderline modification of the game via command entry. Modification of the game, even with debatably intentional gameplay elements, is a case by case thing. Admins can change the ruling on this, sure, but consistency will indeed be an issue.

Well, since you can already reset an SS without losing the character or the pre-scouted map, it honestly sounds like there is no legit difference between the two (SDA wise).  The only change is that you are locking the RNG by modifying the executable, which is already sketchy, and you are losing RNG on mobs and drops.  I can't think of a good reason to go for an "RTA" over a traditional Diablo II SS if you're already going to be scouting the map this way.

If we want to talk about what is proper or not for an RTA, you should have a fresh, unscouted map from the get go.  Freezard's Diablo III runs are proper RTAs, and I feel that those set the bar.

[quote="Endless"]/players is not a cheat; it's an intended gameplay element with tradeoffs. I'm somewhat surprised it was ever denied, but unfortunately it'll likely be denied in the future for the sake of consistency with existing runs.[/quote]

No one is saying that /playersX is a cheating per se, but it was decided that it was borderline modification of the game via command entry.  Modification of the game, even with debatably intentional gameplay elements, is a case by case thing.  Admins can change the ruling on this, sure, but consistency will indeed be an issue.

Eldritch

2013-08-12 04:23:42 pm

Thank you for the answers everyone. I'm still wondering if I may use the same save game to start my runs? Which would mean I have knowledge of the map. I'm asking this because character creation is not a part of the segments in all of the runs posted on SDA right now.

Personally I would like to see the players setting being allowed. It's a part of the game the same way monster power is in Diablo III.

Zurreco

2013-08-12 04:27:35 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

You'll need admin confirmation, but I've had mods in the past give the OK for SS runs not including character creation, so long as you show the character/skills/inventory screens at the beginning of every run.

That being said, are you officially giving up on the "RTA" designation and sticking with SS?

Eldritch

2013-08-12 04:33:37 pm

I'm not sure if I can call it SS since I have to Save & Exit and load the character again in order to gain time when switching acts, gaining levels or running for runes in the tower. Is it still SS in this case?

Zurreco

2013-08-12 04:52:52 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Uh, why on Earth would you have to reload your character in between acts?

Either way, as soon as you Save & Exit, your run instantly gets categorized as segmented. RTA or not, SDA does this to prevent subtle cheating.

Onin

2013-08-12 05:05:36 pm

Quote from Zurreco:

Either way, as soon as you Save & Exit, your run instantly gets categorized as segmented. RTA or not, SDA does this to prevent subtle cheating.

No, that's exactly what Single Segment With Resets means. That category was invented to give people the option to run a single-segment run without having to give up on save&quit-based tactics, glitches, etc. "Subtle cheating" is what verification is for, it's just as much of a potential issue in SS runs.

Eldritch

2013-08-12 05:07:23 pm

It's faster to save & exit after killing Andariel for example. You get teleported right next to Warriv. Also after killing Duriel you can save & exit after talking to Tyrael since you get closer to Jerhyn.

I don't really see a run happening without saving & exiting. For a proper run I need to rerun Countess for runes and kill bosses close to waypoints for leveling up which also requires save & exit for them to spawn again. Can't do it without saving & exiting.

Found a topic that is discussing this as well.

Zurreco

2013-08-12 06:05:47 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Hah. Alright. Have fun getting an admin to OK your using Save & Exit for SS runs based solely on the concept that verifiers might be able to spot whether or not you have been segmenting. I will be super shocked if an informed decision goes your way on this.

For the record, I still don't see why there is any demand for these RTA runs, let alone non-blind ones.

Onin

2013-08-12 06:18:06 pm

There are already plenty single-segment runs using save & exit or console resets to speed things along. See for instance Wario Land 4 or Dark Souls.

ShadowWraith

2013-08-12 10:41:24 pm

.

SS with resets using a previously made character is fine. (so map scouting is a-ok)
Fixing mapseed is something I'm a little wary of saying is okay. Prefer if you do it the old way (i.e generating maps until you get a seed you like).
Command-line switches that affect gameplay are iffy in general. That being said, I don't see why we would disallow /players8. (My reasoning is that it's basically another difficulty level) You would need to use it for every single part of your run and it would be considered a separate category if we do accept it. This is something I'd need to discuss with one of the other mods before I can give you a solid answer.

Stupid

2013-08-13 01:55:17 am

defying gravity

1. IMO backing up save files in Diablo 2 clearly is cheating. It's allowed on SDA, but I think they should at least recognize that it's a cheating category. A SS run starts at character creation, so I think very strongly that it shouldn't be allowed there.
2. In version 1.09a/b the players command goes up to 64 (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Player_Settings), so this should be considered before allowing the command.

Quote:

2. None of the runs are using the players setting. Is it because it's considered a cheat? Because it's not according to Blizzard (Search for "cheat").

That site is wrong, since there clearly are cheats in the game. For instance, there's a command for starting a new character in Act 5.

Eldritch

2013-08-13 02:53:34 am

Quote:

That site is wrong, since there clearly are cheats in the game. For instance, there's a command for starting a new character in Act 5.

Never seen that target line command before, but it's clearly a cheat. Weird how they don't mention it in the official FAQ when asked about cheats. Does this mean the players setting feature is also a cheat and shouldn't be allowed?

Am I allowed to use the "Players X" feature in a Single Segment with Resets category? I've learned that this feature can save around 20 to 40 minutes in my speedrun. Best time I could get was 1h 46m without using it and 1h 22m is my current record using the players setting. I can cut another 10 to 20 minutes easily. There's also another runner I know who motivated me to start running it myself as well. His current time in this category is 1h 16m, but also claims that sub 1h is possible. He is using the same save game file and players setting as well.

With the players setting feature I can see myself beating the Assassins segmented time (58m) which makes me think that perhaps they should be considered different categories. There is a speedrunner LaVSR who doesn't use the setting and he calls his category "Real Time Attack No /Players X" which is the way they should be categorized in my opinion: it should be allowed in any category except for categories that specifically state "No /Players X".

[quote]That site is wrong, since there clearly are cheats in the game. For instance, there's a command for starting a new character in Act 5.[/quote]
Never seen that target line command before, but it's clearly a cheat. Weird how they don't mention it in the official FAQ when asked about cheats. Does this mean the players setting feature is also a cheat and shouldn't be allowed?

Am I allowed to use the "Players X" feature in a Single Segment with Resets category? I've learned that this feature can save around 20 to 40 minutes in my speedrun. Best time I could get was 1h 46m without using it and 1h 22m is my current record using the players setting. I can cut another 10 to 20 minutes easily. There's also another runner I know who motivated me to start running it myself as well. His current time in this category is 1h 16m, but also claims that sub 1h is possible. He is using the same save game file and players setting as well.

With the players setting feature I can see myself beating the Assassins segmented time (58m) which makes me think that perhaps they should be considered different categories. There is a speedrunner LaVSR who doesn't use the setting and he calls his category "Real Time Attack No /Players X" which is the way they should be categorized in my opinion: it should be allowed in any category except for categories that specifically state "No /Players X".

Freezard

2013-08-13 06:11:19 am

Thing is players 8 is just the same as playing with eight players. I don't know, but feels to me that it's a waste allowing it in solo when you could as well play with the said amount of players which would make it much faster to kill monsters and more likely to get good loot. It's not like in D3 where monster health scales with each player on top of the monster power setting, if you enable players 8 nothing will change regardless of how many players are in the game. Thus it would be really inefficient to play solo to what it could be when actually having eight players (I have seen some thread about eight players runs earlier).

ShadowWraith

2013-08-13 06:14:44 am

.

Cooperative runs are always a separate category to singleplayer runs. Please don't try to compare or equate the two.

Freezard

2013-08-13 08:17:53 am

Quote from Stupid:

2. In version 1.09a/b the players command goes up to 64 (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Player_Settings), so this should be considered before allowing the command.

I never knew it was 64 at one point. That would make leveling really easy. Should definitely use that in places and players 1 at bosses. Would most likely be faster than real co-op runs as well.

Zurreco

2013-08-13 01:31:32 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote from Stupid:

1. IMO backing up save files in Diablo 2 clearly is cheating. It's allowed on SDA, but I think they should at least recognize that it's a cheating category. A SS run starts at character creation, so I think very strongly that it shouldn't be allowed there..

Are you saying that this is cheating for segmented run as well, or just SS? Way way back in the day, it was decided that the game doesn't explicitly "start" at character creation, since you can technically make a new character without actually entering the game. Instead, we made a soft designation that the game starts once the character actually starts doing anything substantial, like moving or whatever, so backing up a character that has been created but not played does not constitute any shady dealings. I don't really care if that changes either way, but it's the simplest way for us to have a future SS run, and this solution seems much more kosher than modifying the executable just to lock a map seed.

Quote from ShadowWraith:

SS with resets using a previously made character is fine. (so map scouting is a-ok)
Fixing mapseed is something I'm a little wary of saying is okay. Prefer if you do it the old way (i.e generating maps until you get a seed you like).
Command-line switches that affect gameplay are iffy in general. That being said, I don't see why we would disallow /players8. (My reasoning is that it's basically another difficulty level) You would need to use it for every single part of your run and it would be considered a separate category if we do accept it. This is something I'd need to discuss with one of the other mods before I can give you a solid answer.

If we continue on this /playersX option and the initial proposal, the possible categories are as follows:

7 x SS runs
7 x SS playersX
7 x segmented
7 x segmented playersX
1 x coop
1 x 100%
1 x 100% playersX
7 x "RTA"
7 x "RTA" playersX

That's ridiculous. I'm still awaiting ShadowWraith's final word (which is why I dragged him into this), but it should only be:

7 x segmented
7 x SS ("RTA" or scouted, runners choice, though the latter is much more beneficial than the former)
1 x 100%
1 x coop

And even that probably won't come to fruition, since no one wants to run Barb or Zon. I also don't think that an SS run should be leaving the game at all, since that's risky business, but whatever. Seems silly that people want to have a pure real time run to show off skill, yet are touting item farming as necessary.

Quote from Freezard:

Should definitely use that in places and players 1 at bosses. Would most likely be faster than real co-op runs as well.

Do we have any precedence for allowing the changing of difficulty mid run? I know that you can work the system in some games (RE4, for example) in order to make the game virtually easier, but changing /playersX is fairly explicitly controlling the game difficulty by modifying mob strength.

[quote="Stupid"]1. IMO backing up save files in Diablo 2 clearly is cheating. It's allowed on SDA, but I think they should at least recognize that it's a cheating category. A SS run starts at character creation, so I think very strongly that it shouldn't be allowed there..[/quote]
Are you saying that this is cheating for segmented run as well, or just SS?  Way way back in the day, it was decided that the game doesn't explicitly "start" at character creation, since you can technically make a new character without actually entering the game.  Instead, we made a soft designation that the game starts once the character actually starts doing anything substantial, like moving or whatever, so backing up a character that has been created but not played does not constitute any shady dealings.  I don't really care if that changes either way, but it's the simplest way for us to have a future SS run, and this solution seems much more kosher than modifying the executable just to lock a map seed.

[quote="ShadowWraith"]SS with resets using a previously made character is fine. (so map scouting is a-ok)
Fixing mapseed is something I'm a little wary of saying is okay. Prefer if you do it the old way (i.e generating maps until you get a seed you like). 
Command-line switches that affect gameplay are iffy in general. That being said, I don't see why we would disallow /players8. (My reasoning is that it's basically another difficulty level) You would need to use it for every single part of your run and it would be considered a separate category if we do accept it. This is something I'd need to discuss with one of the other mods before I can give you a solid answer.[/quote]
If we continue on this /playersX option and the initial proposal, the possible categories are as follows:

7 x SS runs
7 x SS playersX
7 x segmented
7 x segmented playersX
1 x coop
1 x 100%
1 x 100% playersX
7 x "RTA"
7 x "RTA" playersX

That's ridiculous.  I'm still awaiting ShadowWraith's final word (which is why I dragged him into this), but it should only be:

7 x segmented
7 x SS ("RTA" or scouted, runners choice, though the latter is much more beneficial than the former)
1 x 100%
1 x coop

And even that probably won't come to fruition, since no one wants to run Barb or Zon.  I also don't think that an SS run should be leaving the game at all, since that's risky business, but whatever.  Seems silly that people want to have a pure real time run to show off skill, yet are touting item farming as necessary.

[quote="Freezard"]Should definitely use that in places and players 1 at bosses. Would most likely be faster than real co-op runs as well.[/quote]
Do we have any precedence for allowing the changing of difficulty mid run?  I know that you can work the system in some games (RE4, for example) in order to make the game virtually easier, but changing /playersX is fairly explicitly controlling the game difficulty by modifying mob strength.

moooh

2013-08-13 01:50:20 pm

Exoray

D2 is a strange fellow since it already has regular difficulties (normal, nightmare and hell) so /players would be some kind of sub-difficulty? It feels kinda redundant having multiple categories that cater for different /players numbers since there are already difficulty categories in existence.

One thing that's for sure is that a playersX run (if accepted as a category) would not obsolete one of the regular runs unless it was very clear that the new run also gained significant time in areas not related to playersX adjustments.

A precedence for changing difficulties mid run would be Left 4 Dead. In that game, the difficulties only have a smaller difference between each other and it was deemed that runners should use whichever difficult was fastest at each time.