Question about getting Records on Emulator

2013-05-16 09:16:12 pm

Hey, guys. I tried looking around on the forum for a Topic about this, but the Search results isn't bringing up what I was looking for.

I have a few friends IRL that happen to Speedrun games, and I have been wanting to try Speedrunning lately, and two of my closest friends were having an argument about getting a WR on a Game.

One argued that if you want to get a World Record, you can only have it if you have the actual game, not from Emulating a game. The other said that it definitely should count if it's on Emulator.

So why I am asking here (I apologize if this is in the wrong sub-section, wasn't sure where to post it,) is because there are some N64 Games that I would love to run / Speedrun and try going for World Record pace, but the issue I have is that none of my Controllers (Even a brand new one I got,) and any Memory Card I have will not work for the Games I want to run, that require a Memory Card to Load / Save Games.

I am curious if I am allowed to use an Emulator or not when it comes to trying to get a Record in a game, or if I will have to buy a new N64 or some thing in order to go for it.

Thanks in advance if any one can inform me what is right / wrong.

Thread title:

Hey, guys. I tried looking around on the forum for a Topic about this, but the Search results isn't bringing up what I was looking for.

I have a few friends IRL that happen to Speedrun games, and I have been wanting to try Speedrunning lately, and two of my closest friends were having an argument about getting a WR on a Game.

One argued that if you want to get a World Record, you can only have it if you have the actual game, not from Emulating a game. The other said that it definitely should count if it's on Emulator.

So why I am asking here (I apologize if this is in the wrong sub-section, wasn't sure where to post it,) is because there are some N64 Games that I would love to run / Speedrun and try going for World Record pace, but the issue I have is that none of my Controllers (Even a brand new one I got,) and any Memory Card I have will not work for the Games I want to run, that require a Memory Card to Load / Save Games.

I am curious if I am allowed to use an Emulator or not when it comes to trying to get a Record in a game, or if I will have to buy a new N64 or some thing in order to go for it.

Thanks in advance if any one can inform me what is right / wrong.

presjpolk

2013-05-16 09:18:30 pm

HELLO!

It's game- and community-specific.

The better the game and system are emulated, the more likely the run is to be taken as legitimate. Also streaming helps a lot for that. Random drops of emulated videos may not be accepted.

Of course that's about World Records. SDA is not a records site, and has different standards. Emulators are not allowed unless they're in an official re-release of the game, such as the Wii VC.

Yarplen

Edit history:

Yarplen: 2013-05-16 09:39:21 pm

2013-05-16 09:38:33 pm

Figured I would ask here. I see all sorts of runners visit here, and I didn't want to ask in the SRL IRC about it because it usually ends up in getting trolled by the others asking a question like that :/

I can see where you're going with that as well.

zewing

2013-05-16 09:40:13 pm

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

well it depends. almost all nes and snes games are able to be emulated properly and hence many of the record are on emulator. though systems like n64 and up ur best to just use console otherwise you would have a huge advantage over console times and that's not really good

puwexil

2013-05-16 10:25:52 pm

Professional Second Banana

What presjpolk said - SDA is a hosting site for high-quality videos recorded from original hardware or official emulators (per http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/rules_en.html). As for whether an emulator run can be considered 'The Record', that's up to the speedrun community for the given game to decide.

sinister1

2013-05-17 08:03:27 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Sometimes it is emulator specific as well. Communities ban emulators that do not accurately represent console conditions and/or provide some advantage. If you want a record that will not be scrutinized or questioned play on console. If you just care about the speedrunning community acknowledging your record then use either, but be aware of points of contention and be prepared to have some doubters if you use emulator.

I will say that with the advent of streaming emulator runs are much more accepted since you can see someone go through the actual process of getting a time with all the mistakes, and resets. Whereas before you just see the final product and have to guess at whether or not this person whom you have probably never seen/heard of is legit.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-05-17 01:47:06 pm

2013-05-17 01:46:39 pm

<(^_^)>

I personally think speed runs should always be on console, and never on unofficial emulators. I can understand accepting WRs of games run on very accurate emulators (basically only consoles at SNES and earlier, and handhelds at GBA or earlier), but especially for games that aren't emulated fully properly, if you're good enough at a game to care about WR, you should have the actual game itself.

But again, the point of SDA isn't hosting WRs, and yeah, ultimately it comes down to the speedrunning community.

Carcinogen

2013-05-17 04:01:10 pm

The only time emulator records make me angry is when someone directly compares their emulator time to a console time with absolutely no knowledge of the technical differences. Otherwise, if there's no cheating, it's whatever to me. I don't like it when someone claims to be more skilled at a game when the only thing they did to get there is do a hackjob of someone else's strategies and let their load times carry them along.

Emulator = Barry Bonds.

Mystery

2013-05-17 05:47:13 pm

Quote from zewing:

well it depends. almost all nes and snes games are able to be emulated properly and hence many of the record are on emulator.

Depends on your definition of properly.
Sure, they almost play and sound like on the original system, but there are technical differences. There are some things possible on emulators and not on console (the super mario world tas that abuses input comes to mind).
Though I know not of something only possible on console, I am kind of certain there are, though they may be very hard for a human to pull off.

scaryice

2013-05-17 08:02:25 pm

Emulator runs are not legit. If you're serious enough to go for a record, then you can get the proper equipment.

Champloo

2013-05-17 08:20:05 pm

Plenty of communities welcome emulated runs for records so long as all the original possibilities are there. FPS, loading times, etc. are all required to be factored into an emulated run's validity in regards to its time. No one can really say that they're better than you just because you're not playing on original hardware, however.

Original hardware/software is always preferred by a majority of people just for the guarantee of the game being unmodified.

SDA only displays original hardware/official emulation runs (read: Virtual Consoles). SDA is not a record site, and there is no centralized record website that I know of for any game. Each community keeps track of its own records in one form or another.

Melodia

Edit history:

Melodia: 2013-05-18 12:00:08 am

2013-05-17 11:59:29 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

I personally think speed runs should always be on console,

Of course, that's not really a fair statement, because a lot of people speed run for fun and not to break records (or get runs put up here), after all. A lot of people seem to forget that.

ktwo

2013-05-18 05:34:48 am

One thing that's not mentioned in the above posts is the "intangible" advantages from using a keyboard.
- Holding down the same button on a controller for long stretches of time (for example holding right on the D-pad in a 2d-platformer) creates the risk for finger fatigue or slipping. Holding down a keyboard button is normally more comfortable.
- In some older games you have to press for example up and right to simulate "diagonal up-right". That action is easier to perform on a keyboard with independent buttons.
- I find it easier to button mash on a keyboard than on a controller, but maybe that's just me?
- You can change direction faster with a keyboard since the buttons are not connected like the D-pad on a controller.

The above might seem like minor things, but at least the first three have been actual issues in games I have tried to speedrun. How much advantage they give is of course very dependent on the game. I don't mean to say that all speedruns on emu are trivial and all speedruns on console are always superior, but I don't see how it can be fairly taken into account either. Take the example of a game that creates finger fatigue from pressing down one button on the controller for an extended amount of time. How do you take into account that the fingers eventually get cramped up from the finger fatigue, resulting in mistakes that lead to more resets? There is a difference between having the potential to get a good time and actually getting a good time, so reducing the number of resets when making attempts is not necessarily negligible.

Even though I'm sure no one cares, if there is a game I want to watch a speedrun of, I generally prefer to watch a console run, even if there is a video of a faster time done on (unofficial) emu. However, I of course have no problem with that it's up to each person to play on whatever they want and also to recognize whatever time they want.

One thing that's not mentioned in the above posts is the "intangible" advantages from using a keyboard.
- Holding down the same button on a controller for long stretches of time (for example holding right on the D-pad in a 2d-platformer) creates the risk for finger fatigue or slipping. Holding down a keyboard button is normally more comfortable.
- In some older games you have to press for example up and right to simulate "diagonal up-right". That action is easier to perform on a keyboard with independent buttons.
- I find it easier to button mash on a keyboard than on a controller, but maybe that's just me?
- You can change direction faster with a keyboard since the buttons are not connected like the D-pad on a controller.

The above might seem like minor things, but at least the first three have been actual issues in games I have tried to speedrun. How much advantage they give is of course very dependent on the game. I don't mean to say that all speedruns on emu are trivial and all speedruns on console are always superior, but I don't see how it can be fairly taken into account either. Take the example of a game that creates finger fatigue from pressing down one button on the controller for an extended amount of time. How do you take into account that the fingers eventually get cramped up from the finger fatigue, resulting in mistakes that lead to more resets? There is a difference between having the potential to get a good time and actually getting a good time, so reducing the number of resets when making attempts is not necessarily negligible.

[hidden]Even though I'm sure no one cares, if there is a game I want to watch a speedrun of, I generally prefer to watch a console run, even if there is a video of a faster time done on (unofficial) emu. However, I of course have no problem with that it's up to each person to play on whatever they want and also to recognize whatever time they want.[/hidden]

kirbymastah

2013-05-18 07:29:47 am

<(^_^)>

Quote from Melodia:

Quote from kirbymastah:

I personally think speed runs should always be on console,

Of course, that's not really a fair statement, because a lot of people speed run for fun and not to break records (or get runs put up here), after all. A lot of people seem to forget that.

I guess what I meant was speed runs at the top level (aka WR level); for the most part, emulator is fine as long as the runner is aware of the technical differences, and the emulator is "reasonably accurate".

Scepheo

2013-05-18 09:15:16 am

Emulators are always imperfect. Just go to the development boards of one (byuu.org or the tasvideos.org emulator development section) and you'll see people discussing the errors in emulation. The recent efforts to play back TASes on real consoles have also proven that the majority of the games aren't emulated perfectly. As much as TASers strive towards perfect emulation, they'd probably be the first to admit we're not there yet.

So yeah, accepting an emulator run as a world record is a dodgy thing to do, at the very least. For casual running and practice, they're perfect though.

I have no name

2013-05-18 10:35:39 am

Obscure games ftw

Quote from Scepheo:

So yeah, accepting an emulator run as a world record is a dodgy thing to do, at the very least. For casual running and practice, they're perfect though.

This.

Also, when people stream emulator runs and have a savestate 3 seconds before gameplay starts and use that to reset, I see them reset over losing tenths of a second early, which they've admitted they wouldn't do if they had to go through the minute long process of a console reset for that game (save, don't continue, new game, mash cutscenes again).

If it was up to me no emulator times would go up at all anywhere just due to how inconsistent they are, and the advantages afforded by them (instant resets, less lag in places, and practically the same loading, and I'm the one at a disadvantage?) are just stupid. Track emulator times on a separate leaderboard if you want, but they are not consoles and shouldn't be directly compared with unless you know EXACTLY the differences and can give an exact count of different times.

Obviously practicing stuff is fine, testing stuff is fine (I did that with monkey duping in AE1 back when I first found it just to recreate how it worked) but the moment you start giving any degree of "official-ness" to the emulator run, you really can't go back without ticking off those that use them.

Primary arguments I've seen towards using them are 'they're easy to get, anyone can" and "Am I supposed to buy an NTSC console and NTSC game just to play it, when I can do this for free?" a.k.a. lazy reasons, while there's loads of valid reasons against them.

/rant

[quote="Scepheo"]So yeah, accepting an emulator run as a world record is a dodgy thing to do, at the very least. For casual running and practice, they're perfect though.[/quote]
This.

Also, when people stream emulator runs and have a savestate 3 seconds before gameplay starts and use that to reset, I see them reset over losing tenths of a second early, which they've admitted they wouldn't do if they had to go through the minute long process of a console reset for that game (save, don't continue, new game, mash cutscenes again).

If it was up to me no emulator times would go up at all anywhere just due to how inconsistent they are, and the advantages afforded by them (instant resets, less lag in places, and practically the same loading, and I'm the one at a disadvantage?) are just stupid.  Track emulator times on a separate leaderboard if you want, but they are not consoles and shouldn't be directly compared with unless you know EXACTLY the differences and can give an exact count of different times.

Obviously practicing stuff is fine, testing stuff is fine (I did that with monkey duping in AE1 back when I first found it just to recreate how it worked) but the moment you start giving any degree of "official-ness" to the emulator run, you really can't go back without ticking off those that use them.

Primary arguments I've seen towards using them are 'they're easy to get, anyone can" and "Am I supposed to buy an NTSC console and NTSC game just to play it, when I can do this for free?" a.k.a. lazy reasons, while there's loads of valid reasons against them.

/rant

Melodia

2013-05-18 11:43:18 am

Still, when you have games where 'the community' has deicdes that "x version of the Japanese game" is the one to play on....I don't think it's really fair to call people lazy because they don't want to spend money on modifying things/getting a converter plus rebuying a game they've owned for many years.

presjpolk

2013-05-18 05:44:27 pm

HELLO!

Just wait until FDSes get even scarcer and harder to maintain than they already are, and the disks start wearing out.

exe

Edit history:

exe: 2013-05-19 05:04:52 pm

2013-05-19 05:03:08 pm

from PAListan

I'm a console collector and so i like to run my games on original Hardware.

I use the console Versions in Races too and that could be a problem with OoT and my Maingame Gex. The differences are big, mainly because of the slowdowns.
VC is also no option for me...the difference to an emulator on PC is imo too small most of the time (when you talk about N64 Games for example).
But that's not a big problem for me, because Races makes a lot of fun and if i win a race, it's much cooler to win this with the N64 Version. And most of the runners know how big the difference is.
I have all three Version of OoT (NTSC-U, NTSC-J and PAL) so i can do races in every categorie.
It's a hobby and for my hobbys i have no problem to spend my money.

The other problem are "WRs". Imo the priority should ever have the console version.

For me, especially the charm of the old consoles is very important.

Mystery

2013-05-19 07:44:53 pm

Quote from I have no name:

Also, when people stream emulator runs and have a savestate 3 seconds before gameplay starts and use that to reset, I see them reset over losing tenths of a second early, which they've admitted they wouldn't do if they had to go through the minute long process of a console reset for that game (save, don't continue, new game, mash cutscenes again).

I really don't see a problem with this. Is not the purpose of a speedrun to achieve the fastest possible time? If you trade time for laziness, then is it a speedrun?

Quote:

If it was up to me no emulator times would go up at all anywhere just due to how inconsistent they are, and the advantages afforded by them (instant resets, less lag in places, and practically the same loading, and I'm the one at a disadvantage?) are just stupid. Track emulator times on a separate leaderboard if you want, but they are not consoles and shouldn't be directly compared with unless you know EXACTLY the differences and can give an exact count of different times.

You are being way too negative against emulators, I think.
Don't get me wrong--due to these kind of differences, it may be necessary to track the records separately since factors can affect the planning and execution of a run.
But then again, lag and load times vary from different consoles too, so you really have to be careful here. Emulators shouldn't be seen as a separate category just because they are emulators, but because of the factors that affect the times.
And again, as for convenient functions that do not affect time: the purpose of a speedrun is achieve to fastest possible time, is it not? Then you have to stop being lazy.

Quote:

Primary arguments I've seen towards using them are 'they're easy to get, anyone can" and "Am I supposed to buy an NTSC console and NTSC game just to play it, when I can do this for free?" a.k.a. lazy reasons, while there's loads of valid reasons against them.

What is wrong with being able to do something for free? That's just not a good reason.

[quote="I have no name"]Also, when people stream emulator runs and have a savestate 3 seconds before gameplay starts and use that to reset, I see them reset over losing tenths of a second early, which they've admitted they wouldn't do if they had to go through the minute long process of a console reset for that game (save, don't continue, new game, mash cutscenes again).[/quote]
I really don't see a problem with this. Is not the purpose of a speedrun to achieve the fastest possible time? If you trade time for laziness, then is it a speedrun?

[quote]If it was up to me no emulator times would go up at all anywhere just due to how inconsistent they are, and the advantages afforded by them (instant resets, less lag in places, and practically the same loading, and I'm the one at a disadvantage?) are just stupid.  Track emulator times on a separate leaderboard if you want, but they are not consoles and shouldn't be directly compared with unless you know EXACTLY the differences and can give an exact count of different times.[/quote]
You are being way too negative against emulators, I think.
Don't get me wrong--due to these kind of differences, it may be necessary to track the records separately since factors can affect the planning and execution of a run.
But then again, lag and load times vary from different consoles too, so you really have to be careful here. Emulators shouldn't be seen as a separate category just because they are emulators, but because of the factors that affect the times.
And again, as for convenient functions that do not affect time: the purpose of a speedrun is achieve to fastest possible time, is it not? Then you have to stop being lazy.

[quote]Primary arguments I've seen towards using them are 'they're easy to get, anyone can" and "Am I supposed to buy an NTSC console and NTSC game just to play it, when I can do this for free?" a.k.a. lazy reasons, while there's loads of valid reasons against them.[/quote]
What is wrong with being able to do something for free? That's just not a good reason.

Caracarn

2013-05-19 08:09:13 pm

Well for one, it's illegal to use a ROM of a game you don't own. It's the same as people who download movies and say "why should I buy the DVD when I can get it for free?"

I have no name

2013-05-19 10:21:51 pm

Obscure games ftw

Quote from Mystery:

You are being way too negative against emulators, I think.

Maybe a bit, but the more I've looked at it, at least for PS1 games, the more I see how unreliable an emulated time is.

Quote from Mystery:

I really don't see a problem with this. Is not the purpose of a speedrun to achieve the fastest possible time? If you trade time for laziness, then is it a speedrun?

Oh ok, so the rejected run for dumping KH:BBS onto a memory stick in the name of speed is all good then. The point to be as fast as possible, but without cheating. I view savestate resets as cheating because it's not possible in the original game and your run has now been assisted by a tool (note: I'm not saying lump emulated runs in with TASes, but it's blatant cheating and no one seems to have a problem with it)

Hsanrb

2013-05-19 11:03:52 pm

The other problem with save states in an emulated run is you never know if certain RNG factors are now set in stone, or your going to come across the same RNG every reset. So unless you soft/hard reset back to the title screen you may practice with the same predictable RNG that you won't come across ever again, or at least one in maximum randomness chance. RNG can be adjusted by power on time, frame time, even the number of times a button is pushed.

Emulated no matter how good or how bad the run is should always be separated from console times. The further up the console chain you go, the less accurate the timing can be. Not to mention one emulator to another can actually play the game differently it becomes too difficult compare times. Graphics can look completely different so seams you wouldn't notice on console can be seen on emulator. I'm 99% sure the clip point for Blast Away the Star in SM64 is the only one I can recall off the top of my head.

presjpolk

2013-05-20 07:00:27 am

HELLO!

To Hsanrb and I have no name's points, that's why I said it was console-dependent. NES these days is rather well emulated, and SNES seems to be close to that standard. But even Nintendo couldn't get the N64 lag-perfect on the Wii Virtual Console...

Mystery

Edit history:

Mystery: 2013-05-20 09:59:02 am

Mystery: 2013-05-20 09:56:03 am

2013-05-20 09:55:44 am

Quote from I have no name:

Oh ok, so the rejected run for dumping KH:BBS onto a memory stick in the name of speed is all good then.

That is an ethical issue, not a speedrun issue. Where and how you get a game is not a speedrun issue.
(But it doesn't mean it's right to steal.)

Quote from I have no name:

I view savestate resets as cheating because it's not possible in the original game and your run has now been assisted by a tool (note: I'm not saying lump emulated runs in with TASes, but it's blatant cheating and no one seems to have a problem with it)

I find that splitting hairs.
Yes, it's more convenient, but then again, it's really nothing you cannot do on a real console. If you want the fastest record, then you simply have to learn to be patient.
It's like... some having big TVs, some having small, some having the ability to adjust the brightness to easily navigate dark areas, whereas some don't. Changing the brightness is using a tool to assist your run, is it not?

Quote from Hsanrb:

The other problem with save states in an emulated run is you never know if certain RNG factors are now set in stone, or your going to come across the same RNG every reset. So unless you soft/hard reset back to the title screen you may practice with the same predictable RNG that you won't come across ever again, or at least one in maximum randomness chance. RNG can be adjusted by power on time, frame time, even the number of times a button is pushed.

This is true, and is certainly is true that abusing this could be considered cheating.
Just remember that RNG is often unpredictable in the first place. It could change for a thousand different reasons, sometimes making it impossible to get the same RNG even if you restart from the same point all over again with savestates.

[quote="I have no name"]Oh ok, so the rejected run for dumping KH:BBS onto a memory stick in the name of speed is all good then.[/quote]
That is an ethical issue, not a speedrun issue. Where and how you get a game is not a speedrun issue.
(But it doesn't mean it's right to steal.)

[quote="I have no name"]I view savestate resets as cheating because it's not possible in the original game and your run has now been assisted by a tool (note: I'm not saying lump emulated runs in with TASes, but it's blatant cheating and no one seems to have a problem with it)[/quote]
I find that splitting hairs.
Yes, it's more convenient, but then again, it's really nothing you cannot do on a real console. If you want the fastest record, then you simply have to learn to be patient.
It's like... some having big TVs, some having small, some having the ability to adjust the brightness to easily navigate dark areas, whereas some don't. Changing the brightness is using a tool to assist your run, is it not?

[quote="Hsanrb"]The other problem with save states in an emulated run is you never know if certain RNG factors are now set in stone, or your going to come across the same RNG every reset. So unless you soft/hard reset back to the title screen you may practice with the same predictable RNG that you won't come across ever again, or at least one in maximum randomness chance. RNG can be adjusted by power on time, frame time, even the number of times a button is pushed.[/quote]
This is true, and is certainly is true that abusing this could be considered cheating.
Just remember that RNG is often unpredictable in the first place. It could change for a thousand different reasons, sometimes making it impossible to get the same RNG even if you restart from the same point all over again with savestates.