Question about 100% completion via multiple game carts?

2013-05-31 11:01:01 am

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

If you allow unrestricted chip trading then ur literally able to dump all chips from one game to another and have everything. It sucks but this game is a weird situation cause you have suggestoins to just dump all chips to blue and then there's the method I agree with and that's minimum assistance. This is not a NG+ category and it should not be treated as such. NG+ would only apply to MMBN4 since the game has a built in NG+ feature to up teh difficulty up to 2 times. Only thing that needs to be discussed is how much gets traded to MMBN3 -- only the 4 chips or anything goes. Unrestricted trading takes away a ton of routing the game and would just be boring and you won't see what features this game has (100% generally goes to every nook and cranny in games instead of any% OP mode)

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-31 11:30:12 am

2013-05-31 11:29:50 am

Quote from zewing:

If you allow unrestricted chip trading then ur literally able to dump all chips from one game to another and have everything. It sucks but this game is a weird situation cause you have suggestoins to just dump all chips to blue and then there's the method I agree with and that's minimum assistance. This is not a NG+ category and it should not be treated as such. NG+ would only apply to MMBN4 since the game has a built in NG+ feature to up teh difficulty up to 2 times. Only thing that needs to be discussed is how much gets traded to MMBN3 -- only the 4 chips or anything goes. Unrestricted trading takes away a ton of routing the game and would just be boring and you won't see what features this game has (100% generally goes to every nook and cranny in games instead of any% OP mode)

This is exactly what I mean. The game is most interesting when started from the beginning with essentially nothing. I would rather trade MistMan after everything is done, and of course I wouldn't trade anything more. I'll have to do a lot of thinking to make this a foolproof method that can't be exploited.

[quote="zewing"]If you allow unrestricted chip trading then ur literally able to dump all chips from one game to another and have everything.  It sucks but this game is a weird situation cause you have suggestoins to just dump all chips to blue and then there's the method I agree with and that's minimum assistance.  This is not a NG+ category and it should not be treated as such.  NG+ would only apply to MMBN4 since the game has a built in NG+ feature to up teh difficulty up to 2 times.  Only thing that needs to be discussed is how much gets traded to MMBN3 -- only the 4 chips or anything goes.  Unrestricted trading takes away a ton of routing the game and would just be boring and you won't see what features this game has (100% generally goes to every nook and cranny in games instead of any% OP mode)[/quote]

This is exactly what I mean. The game is most interesting when started from the beginning with essentially nothing. I would rather trade MistMan after everything is done, and of course I wouldn't trade anything more. I'll have to do a lot of thinking to make this a foolproof method that can't be exploited.

presjpolk

2013-05-31 11:42:18 am

HELLO!

Sure, unrestricted trading takes away some of the routing, but if it's faster, it's faster.

"Minimal trading" sounds to me like an arbitrary restriction that SDA typically doesn't allow. But unlimited trading is clearly NG+ish territory.

This is a really weird case.

By the way, Prismatic Black, you shouldn't assume that people who disagree with you aren't familiar with what's going on in the game! Smiley

TheOthin

2013-05-31 11:46:14 am

Who's to say that it's "more interesting" to play through the rest of the game the hard way without those chips than to get them early and break everything? Breaking things is kind of a big point of this site.

zewing

2013-05-31 11:48:48 am

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

yeah but this game is not NG+ at all. NG+ is a built in thing and trading is nothing like this.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-31 12:04:28 pm

Quote from presjpolk:

Sure, unrestricted trading takes away some of the routing, but if it's faster, it's faster.

"Minimal trading" sounds to me like an arbitrary restriction that SDA typically doesn't allow. But unlimited trading is clearly NG+ish territory.

This is a really weird case.

By the way, Prismatic Black, you shouldn't assume that people who disagree with you aren't familiar with what's going on in the game! Smiley

Oh, no. I wasn't implying that people who haven't played it are ignorant to what I am saying. I was just saying that if I used the MistMan chips early on, players of the game may understand that it's not severely handicapping me. Those chips are sort of meh.

Quote from TheOthin:

Who's to say that it's "more interesting" to play through the rest of the game the hard way without those chips than to get them early and break everything? Breaking things is kind of a big point of this site.

Getting these chips wouldn't be a bad thing to do. However, trading anything else from the other game is not really going to make the run worthwhile, because it defeats the purpose of the run. So, at the very most, I would use the MistMan chips ASAP, but at the least, I would get them at the end of the 4-star Maximized run.

Quote from zewing:

yeah but this game is not NG+ at all. NG+ is a built in thing and trading is nothing like this.

You are correct though. It is a strange case. It's not an NG+ file because you don't start with anything. You still have to trade. It's tough to categorize.

I know that it was pointed out that Pokemon can be completed 100% without trading. If this weren't the case though, this game would need to be viewed in that manner. How would a 100% run of Pokemon be completed without glitches? That's essentially the question. Except this is only for 4 chips. It's definitely significantly more efficient on time than a Pokemon game.

[quote="presjpolk"]Sure, unrestricted trading takes away some of the routing, but if it's faster, it's faster.

"Minimal trading" sounds to me like an arbitrary restriction that SDA typically doesn't allow. But unlimited trading is clearly NG+ish territory.

This is a really weird case.

By the way, Prismatic Black, you shouldn't assume that people who disagree with you aren't familiar with what's going on in the game! :)[/quote]

Oh, no. I wasn't implying that people who haven't played it are ignorant to what I am saying. I was just saying that if I used the MistMan chips early on, players of the game may understand that it's not severely handicapping me. Those chips are sort of meh.

[quote="TheOthin"]Who's to say that it's "more interesting" to play through the rest of the game the hard way without those chips than to get them early and break everything? Breaking things is kind of a big point of this site.[/quote]

Getting these chips wouldn't be a bad thing to do. However, trading anything else from the other game is not really going to make the run worthwhile, because it defeats the purpose of the run. So, at the very most, I would use the MistMan chips ASAP, but at the least, I would get them at the end of the 4-star Maximized run.

[quote="zewing"]yeah but this game is not NG+ at all.  NG+ is a built in thing and trading is nothing like this.  [/quote]

You are correct though. It is a strange case. It's not an NG+ file because you don't start with anything. You still have to trade. It's tough to categorize.

I know that it was pointed out that Pokemon can be completed 100% without trading. If this weren't the case though, this game would need to be viewed in that manner. How would a 100% run of Pokemon be completed without glitches? That's essentially the question. Except this is only for 4 chips. It's definitely significantly more efficient on time than a Pokemon game.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2013-05-31 03:47:58 pm

Claimh Happy

Again, if you only want to play one game, then do everything you can in THAT GAME. If you have to drag another game in, don't whine about having to play that game well, too.

Hsanrb

2013-05-31 04:16:13 pm

Having just looked up an FAQ (with no game knowledge) I'm sure this can be resolved by just using Library Compare VS physcially trading the carts. This should end the debate because you still buy the chips in the version you run and you don't need any gameplay from the version your getting stuff from.

Nice clean solution, should get a clear 100% for a single cart and you don't need to play the other version and you'd still have to acquire it.

PS: IF using this chip is faster than what you plan on using up to that point and you can acquire it. You SHOULD use it in a run. You can't say "I'll just library compare, and pass up using it" if using it is faster than stuff you get at the point.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-31 06:45:52 pm

Quote from Hsanrb:

Having just looked up an FAQ (with no game knowledge) I'm sure this can be resolved by just using Library Compare VS physcially trading the carts. This should end the debate because you still buy the chips in the version you run and you don't need any gameplay from the version your getting stuff from.

Nice clean solution, should get a clear 100% for a single cart and you don't need to play the other version and you'd still have to acquire it.

PS: IF using this chip is faster than what you plan on using up to that point and you can acquire it. You SHOULD use it in a run. You can't say "I'll just library compare, and pass up using it" if using it is faster than stuff you get at the point.

I had considered doing a library compare, but really it would just negate the trading aspect. I would still have to have gotten the Mistman Chips in White in order to have the data in my library. It would take less time to buy them, rather than trade them, but I would also have to get A LOT of Zenny to be able to. So technically the more efficient way if I plan to use the chip ASAP is to just trade. Good suggestion though.

[quote="Hsanrb"]Having just looked up an FAQ (with no game knowledge) I'm sure this can be resolved by just using Library Compare VS physcially trading the carts. This should end the debate because you still buy the chips in the version you run and you don't need any gameplay from the version your getting stuff from.

Nice clean solution, should get a clear 100% for a single cart and you don't need to play the other version and you'd still have to acquire it.

PS: IF using this chip is faster than what you plan on using up to that point and you can acquire it. You SHOULD use it in a run. You can't say "I'll just library compare, and pass up using it" if using it is faster than stuff you get at the point.[/quote]

I had considered doing a library compare, but really it would just negate the trading aspect. I would still have to have gotten the Mistman Chips in White in order to have the data in my library. It would take less time to buy them, rather than trade them, but I would also have to get A LOT of Zenny to be able to. So technically the more efficient way if I plan to use the chip ASAP is to just trade. Good suggestion though.

ZenicReverie

2013-05-31 08:55:31 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Here's my opinion on both options for a 7-star run:

Trade everything as soon as possible - The benefit is speed while still collecting everything. Does this make the run trivial? It sounds like it does: just trade everything you need to collect and play through the story line (+1 optional boss and whatever a PA combo is). That's compared to playing without trading anything. Sounds like a similar to NG+.

Trade only the 4 chips that unlock all content - The benefit is we get to see a run where everything happens (except getting those 4 unavailable chips). Basically using the save game data to unlock bonus content. The drawback to this is it's nearly identical to running one of the games standalone to complete as much as possible. Really I only see one of those categories being viable to the community since they're too similar. There's an argument against max % for standalone, which isn't much different from NG+ either.

On a related note, does it matter if it's white to blue or blue to white? I know you plan on going white to blue, but there doesn't seem a significant difference to say it's an exclusive direction. This would make the category something like 100% combined games.

Here's my opinion on both options for a 7-star run:

Trade everything as soon as possible - The benefit is speed while still collecting everything. Does this make the run trivial? It sounds like it does: just trade everything you need to collect and play through the story line (+1 optional boss and whatever a PA combo is). That's compared to playing without trading anything. Sounds like a similar to NG+.

Trade only the 4 chips that unlock all content - The benefit is we get to see a run where everything happens (except getting those 4 unavailable chips). Basically using the save game data to unlock bonus content. The drawback to this is it's nearly identical to running one of the games standalone to complete as much as possible. Really I only see one of those categories being viable to the community since they're too similar. There's an argument against max % for standalone, which isn't much different from NG+ either.

On a related note, does it matter if it's white to blue or blue to white? I know you plan on going white to blue, but there doesn't seem a significant difference to say it's an exclusive direction. This would make the category something like 100% combined games.

Hsanrb

2013-05-31 09:29:30 pm

Quote from Prismatic Black:

Quote from Hsanrb:

Having just looked up an FAQ (with no game knowledge) I'm sure this can be resolved by just using Library Compare VS physcially trading the carts. This should end the debate because you still buy the chips in the version you run and you don't need any gameplay from the version your getting stuff from.

Nice clean solution, should get a clear 100% for a single cart and you don't need to play the other version and you'd still have to acquire it.

PS: IF using this chip is faster than what you plan on using up to that point and you can acquire it. You SHOULD use it in a run. You can't say "I'll just library compare, and pass up using it" if using it is faster than stuff you get at the point.

I had considered doing a library compare, but really it would just negate the trading aspect. I would still have to have gotten the Mistman Chips in White in order to have the data in my library. It would take less time to buy them, rather than trade them, but I would also have to get A LOT of Zenny to be able to. So technically the more efficient way if I plan to use the chip ASAP is to just trade. Good suggestion though.

The only reason I offered it was so that you didn't have to play White, you can just tag it and buy whenever its most effective. It keeps the catagory available, you don't have to debate # of chips to trade, and its easily reproducable whether or not the next runner is White or Blue.

Quote from ZenicReverie:

On a related note, does it matter if it's white to blue or blue to white? I know you plan on going white to blue, but there doesn't seem a significant difference to say it's an exclusive direction. This would make the category something like 100% combined games.

Yea, it sounds like Pokemon where the same Gen (with exceptions like Yellow) would be the same category. Red VS Blue is the same. Unless a glitch is found that enables getting both sets of chips on a game that can't be done on the other. Unless someone can break this question months or years down the road, we'll never know if this will occur.

[quote="Prismatic Black"][quote="Hsanrb"]Having just looked up an FAQ (with no game knowledge) I'm sure this can be resolved by just using Library Compare VS physcially trading the carts. This should end the debate because you still buy the chips in the version you run and you don't need any gameplay from the version your getting stuff from.

Nice clean solution, should get a clear 100% for a single cart and you don't need to play the other version and you'd still have to acquire it.

PS: IF using this chip is faster than what you plan on using up to that point and you can acquire it. You SHOULD use it in a run. You can't say "I'll just library compare, and pass up using it" if using it is faster than stuff you get at the point.[/quote]

I had considered doing a library compare, but really it would just negate the trading aspect. I would still have to have gotten the Mistman Chips in White in order to have the data in my library. It would take less time to buy them, rather than trade them, but I would also have to get A LOT of Zenny to be able to. So technically the more efficient way if I plan to use the chip ASAP is to just trade. Good suggestion though.[/quote]

The only reason I offered it was so that you didn't have to play White, you can just tag it and buy whenever its most effective. It keeps the catagory available, you don't have to debate # of chips to trade, and its easily reproducable whether or not the next runner is White or Blue.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]
On a related note, does it matter if it's white to blue or blue to white? I know you plan on going white to blue, but there doesn't seem a significant difference to say it's an exclusive direction. This would make the category something like 100% combined games.[/quote]

Yea, it sounds like Pokemon where the same Gen (with exceptions like Yellow) would be the same category. Red VS Blue is the same. Unless a glitch is found that enables getting both sets of chips on a game that can't be done on the other. Unless someone can break this question months or years down the road, we'll never know if this will occur.

Rakuen

2013-05-31 10:56:50 pm

Weegee Time

Wow, this has gone on for three pages. Well, allow me to add to the echo chamber. There's a lot of overcomplicated debate here. We don't need to talk about Pokemons or timing or trade theory. I propose we take a step back and stick with the KISS principle. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

There are two 100% categories.

100% New Game - You play through the entire game in a closed environment. You trade over the four chips to unlock star 5 and proceed to the remainder of the post game.

100% New Game+ - You start with a file that has flipping everything and beat the game to death with a sledgehammer.

It's been a long time since I played MMBN3 but I'm pretty sure there's enough differences in the stars 1-4 routing to justify both categories on the site. I feel these categories are intuitive to the average user browsing the site. I also believe there would be interest in both runs, such that there is interest in an MMBN3 run in the first place. I think it's really that simple.

Mystery

2013-06-01 02:59:57 am

Well, I just think of it this way:
SDA is all about speed, so when there is a speed vs entertainment tradeoff, it means speed must be prioritized. That makes things like 100% minimum trade difficult to justify.
However, SDA is also not just about speed - it's also about entertainment. Even if your run doesn't make it onto the site, it can still be a casual run and uploaded to youtube.
So if you're fine with the fact that it might not make it, go right ahead. Many people will find it more interesting and what's most important of all - you get to decide what you think is most fun.
If you're aiming to get a run on the site, 100% with trading as much as possible to minimize time would probably be the best option.
But then again, you can always ask for an official statement as long as the different categories can be sufficiently defined, which I think they already are.

Prismatic Black

2013-06-01 10:32:36 am

I may just create a challenge run for fun for practice and just for entertainment. Then, I will get really good at it, and I'll be able to beat the individual game 100% (4-star run) as a run I could submit. I'm playing a practice run of MMBN1 right now. I have time to look over 3 in the future. It is quite interesting to hear so many different opinions on how this could be handled. I'm sure something could be thought up as a submittable and verifiable run.

161803398874989

2013-06-02 04:41:48 am

MATHEMATICS

Quote from Mystery:

Well, I just think of it this way:
SDA is all about speed, so when there is a speed vs entertainment tradeoff, it means speed must be prioritized. That makes things like 100% minimum trade difficult to justify.

This argument is invalid as we have low% runs on the site, meaning using bare minimum tools is a thing you can do. I don't think allowing only 'bare minimum trading' is an arbitrary rule at all, but a natural consequence of how the games are set up.

Mystery

2013-06-02 04:43:37 am

Quote from 161803398874989:

This argument is invalid as we have low% runs on the site, meaning using bare minimum tools is a thing you can do. I don't think allowing only 'bare minimum trading' is an arbitrary rule at all, but a natural consequence of how the games are set up.

This is about 100%, not low%.
Sure, the argument is invalid for low%, but not for any or 100%.