Question about 100% completion via multiple game carts?

2013-05-29 12:26:38 am

What do you all think is the best way to know the validity of this kind of run? Just send it and hope that it is accepted? I did ask this question in the 100%/low% description thread, and nothing has been verified yet. It's just one of those games that is quite unconventional.

Also, to S.
It is just 4 items to be traded, and the trade time should be calculated into the game clock. So that is pretty much going to be accounted for in the game time for the run. So I think that is fair. Trading any other items wouldn't really be a benefit to me, because it would take up time, and would be so easily detectable if someone were trying to take advantage of trading.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2013-05-29 01:11:50 am

2013-05-29 01:01:29 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Melodia:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.

How is that different from requiring runners to buy ":the Japanese 1.0" (or whatever else....not to mention converters/consoles to play em on)?

I don't believe SDA requires a specific language version, but yes, requiring a category to use a certain version also limits the pool of potential runners. Of course, it can't be helped that certain glitches are only available in early versions of games. I only said it was best practice to keep the playing field open, not that it was necessary.

Quote from Prismatic Black:

What do you all think is the best way to know the validity of this kind of run? Just send it and hope that it is accepted? I did ask this question in the 100%/low% description thread, and nothing has been verified yet. It's just one of those games that is quite unconventional.

Also, to S.
It is just 4 items to be traded, and the trade time should be calculated into the game clock. So that is pretty much going to be accounted for in the game time for the run. So I think that is fair. Trading any other items wouldn't really be a benefit to me, because it would take up time, and would be so easily detectable if someone were trying to take advantage of trading.

Do you use those 4 items you trade? If not, then I don't see the point in trading just to make a number go higher if trading is trivial and not counted in the timing. If trading is allowed, then why not maximize the benefit, especially if gathering the items isn't timed?

Quote from Mystery:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

NG+ usually is from a loaded save, not a trade of resources.

In some games, you have the option to start NG+ not by loading an existing save, but simply by having completed the game.
Furthermore, in some games, there are items that may be acquired later in the game that are unavailable in normal game.
So I'd consider trading as "getting items later in the game."

Quote:

It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.

But this is only for 100%, not for any%. Plus, the argument is that these items MUST be traded in order to get 100%, so there's no avoiding if running this category.

Normally, NG+ starts with the benefits enabled from the beginning of a new game. I don't see a difference between having a cleared save game saved loaded for NG+ and starting a new game after completing the game where you get benefits from the previous session.

If 100% uses traded items from a different game, why not allow an any% category NG+? I see two categories, 100% for the series, and 100% for this standalone game. Which allows for the greater competition?

[quote="Melodia"][quote="ZenicReverie"]
It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.
[/quote]

How is that different from requiring runners to buy ":the Japanese 1.0" (or whatever else....not to mention converters/consoles to play em on)?[/quote]
I don't believe SDA requires a specific language version, but yes, requiring a category to use a certain version also limits the pool of potential runners. Of course, it can't be helped that certain glitches are only available in early versions of games. I only said it was best practice to keep the playing field open, not that it was necessary.

[quote="Prismatic Black"]What do you all think is the best way to know the validity of this kind of run? Just send it and hope that it is accepted? I did ask this question in the 100%/low% description thread, and nothing has been verified yet. It's just one of those games that is quite unconventional.

Also, to S.
It is just 4 items to be traded, and the trade time should be calculated into the game clock. So that is pretty much going to be accounted for in the game time for the run. So I think that is fair. Trading any other items wouldn't really be a benefit to me, because it would take up time, and would be so easily detectable if someone were trying to take advantage of trading.[/quote]
Do you use those 4 items you trade? If not, then I don't see the point in trading just to make a number go higher if trading is trivial and not counted in the timing. If trading is allowed, then why not maximize the benefit, especially if gathering the items isn't timed?

[quote="Mystery"][quote="ZenicReverie"]NG+ usually is from a loaded save, not a trade of resources.[/quote]
In some games, you have the option to start NG+ not by loading an existing save, but simply by having completed the game.
Furthermore, in some games, there are items that may be acquired later in the game that are unavailable in normal game.
So I'd consider trading as "getting items later in the game."

[quote]It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.[/quote]
But this is only for 100%, not for any%. Plus, the argument is that these items MUST be traded in order to get 100%, so there's no avoiding if running this category.[/quote]
Normally, NG+ starts with the benefits enabled from the beginning of a new game. I don't see a difference between having a cleared save game saved loaded for NG+ and starting a new game after completing the game where you get benefits from the previous session.

If 100% uses traded items from a different game, why not allow an any% category NG+? I see two categories, 100% for the series, and 100% for this standalone game. Which allows for the greater competition?

Prismatic Black

2013-05-29 10:51:13 am

The trade time is calculated in the run, and this is the only way to continue on to the game's second half. I could just trade to complete the 4 remaining mega chips in the chip library and NOT use them. They aren't really good chips anyway. They are if used early in the game, but I am going to only use them to complete the library. That would be like trading a really high level Pokemon to a new file in order for someone to complete a run faster. That wouldn't be a fair run at all. There shouldn't be a dispute if I trade the chips and never use them though.

TECHNICALLY trading these chips early would make the game easier for me IF they were used. However, if I don't use them, then it will not make the game easier, but it will make the game possible to complete.

Mystery

2013-05-29 02:44:47 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

If 100% uses traded items from a different game, why not allow an any% category NG+? I see two categories, 100% for the series, and 100% for this standalone game. Which allows for the greater competition?

I don't see how 100% for "this game" could work, seeing as you would skip items that are easily countable towards 100%.

Quote from Prismatic Black:

The trade time is calculated in the run, and this is the only way to continue on to the game's second half. I could just trade to complete the 4 remaining mega chips in the chip library and NOT use them. They aren't really good chips anyway. They are if used early in the game, but I am going to only use them to complete the library. That would be like trading a really high level Pokemon to a new file in order for someone to complete a run faster. That wouldn't be a fair run at all. There shouldn't be a dispute if I trade the chips and never use them though.

TECHNICALLY trading these chips early would make the game easier for me IF they were used. However, if I don't use them, then it will not make the game easier, but it will make the game possible to complete.

Actually, I think it IS fair. You would technically be doing a NG+, meaning that you should technically have access to all those high-level chips from the beginning. That means you should strive to complete the game as fast as possible using any means. If that means trading higher-level chips in the beginning, then that is what you must do. This is a speedrun, after all. You must use all possible means that are available to you to get the fastest possible time.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]If 100% uses traded items from a different game, why not allow an any% category NG+? I see two categories, 100% for the series, and 100% for this standalone game. Which allows for the greater competition?[/quote]
I don't see how 100% for "this game" could work, seeing as you would skip items that are easily countable towards 100%.

[quote="Prismatic Black"]The trade time is calculated in the run, and this is the only way to continue on to the game's second half. I could just trade to complete the 4 remaining mega chips in the chip library and NOT use them. They aren't really good chips anyway. They are if used early in the game, but I am going to only use them to complete the library. That would be like trading a really high level Pokemon to a new file in order for someone to complete a run faster. That wouldn't be a fair run at all. There shouldn't be a dispute if I trade the chips and never use them though.

TECHNICALLY trading these chips early would make the game easier for me IF they were used. However, if I don't use them, then it will not make the game easier, but it will make the game possible to complete.[/quote]
Actually, I think it IS fair. You would technically be doing a NG+, meaning that you should technically have access to all those high-level chips from the beginning. That means you should strive to complete the game as fast as possible using any means. If that means trading higher-level chips in the beginning, then that is what you must do. This is a speedrun, after all. You must use all possible means that are available to you to get the fastest possible time.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-29 02:58:07 pm

I think what this would come down to is 100% bare minimum assistance. I would only get the help that is required from White version to get 100%. The rest must be done in Blue Version.

Mystery

2013-05-29 03:16:09 pm

If you would get help from another game--any type of help--then you must count all the possible resources that game can offer you as part of your toolset.
If you fail to use something that would save time, it would like starting a NG+, but choosing not to use some abilities you gain from NG+ simply because you don't want to use them. The later is obviously not acceptable at SDA. This is a special case, so it might not be as strict, but I just want to point out the parallel line here.

TheOthin

2013-05-29 04:30:56 pm

Is there any reason not to allow an "ingame 100%" when there is absolutely no similar category? When true 100% would open a whole floodgates of involvement from other games, it sounds different enough to not be worth worrying about for disrupting this.

Mystery

2013-05-29 04:33:26 pm

The only reason against it would be that it would be another category. SDA generally wants to minimize the number of categories which is usually why arbitrary goals are not allowed. But other than that, I don't see any reason not to...

TheOthin

2013-05-29 04:37:56 pm

That is a fair concern. I'm thinking that this sort of run, as one that's closest to what we'd expect out of a 100% run, would be a worthwhile one?

S.

2013-05-30 01:23:04 pm

I don't consider the acquirement of 4 items from a different game a "floodgate of involvement".

100% bare minimum assistance sounds the best to me.

zewing

2013-05-30 01:30:54 pm

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

Quote from S.:

I don't consider the acquirement of 4 items from a different game a "floodgate of involvement".

100% bare minimum assistance sounds the best to me.

This is what i think this game should be done if run 100% since the game forces you to do this. I also do not see how this game and situation should be implemented for other games since most games can be 100% on 1 cart alone. This game for sure is a special case and bare minimu assistance keeps run interesting

ZenicReverie

2013-05-30 11:48:59 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Is there a difference between a run using one cart and one importing items and not using them? Do those items unlock parts of the game you play through, or do they just add to the completion percentage?

Prismatic Black

2013-05-31 12:29:25 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Is there a difference between a run using one cart and one importing items and not using them? Do those items unlock parts of the game you play through, or do they just add to the completion percentage?

Essentially, in order to accomplish 100% of the game, you must have:

1: Completed the main story
2: Collected all Standard chips
3: Defeat Bass GS
4: Defeat Serenade's Time Trial
5: Collected all Mega Chips
6: Defeated the Omega Navis
7: Completed the PA Library

Stars 1-4 are obtainable in the standard game. HOWEVER, Capcom decided to be complicated and only change a few things between Blue and White version. In Blue, you have to fight Bowlman to complete a certain part of the storyline. He also gives 4 versions of his Mega Chip. In White version, the story is the same exact thing, except you must fight Mistman in lieu of Bowlman. Unfortunately, completing the criteria for the 5th star can only be met by trading Mistman's chips. The only other differences between the two versions are the Giga Chips you collect, but there is no star for them. Also White has Ground Style and Blue has Shadow Style. Those aren't necessary for 100% completion though.

Once you collect five stars, you input a specific code at the title screen with the D-pad an shoulder buttons that lets you fight the Omega Navis.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]Is there a difference between a run using one cart and one importing items and not using them? Do those items unlock parts of the game you play through, or do they just add to the completion percentage?[/quote]

Essentially, in order to accomplish 100% of the game, you must have:

1: Completed the main story
2: Collected all Standard chips
3: Defeat Bass GS
4: Defeat Serenade's Time Trial
5: Collected all Mega Chips
6: Defeated the Omega Navis
7: Completed the PA Library

Stars 1-4 are obtainable in the standard game. HOWEVER, Capcom decided to be complicated and only change a few things between Blue and White version. In Blue, you have to fight Bowlman to complete a certain part of the storyline. He also gives 4 versions of his Mega Chip. In White version, the story is the same exact thing, except you must fight Mistman in lieu of Bowlman. Unfortunately, completing the criteria for the 5th star can only be met by trading Mistman's chips. The only other differences between the two versions are the Giga Chips you collect, but there is no star for them. Also White has Ground Style and Blue has Shadow Style. Those aren't necessary for 100% completion though.

Once you collect five stars, you input a specific code at the title screen with the D-pad an shoulder buttons that lets you fight the Omega Navis.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2013-05-31 08:20:22 am

2013-05-31 08:18:30 am

Claimh Happy

Quote from Prismatic Black:

It's an odd situation. It's like asking if a 100% Pokemon run required that you count the entire run of collecting the Pokemon from both games, or just one run of one of the games including the trading sequences.

To add absolutely nothing to this conversation, you don't need a second cart to 100% many of the pokemon games (any of them?).

To be more helpful: I think a run like this should just include all gameplay required in both games (starting from new game) in order to finish the run. That avoids most of the arbitrary decisions about what you would be allowed to transfer, and honestly you have to play that game to get 100%, so why shouldn't it be part of the run?

presjpolk

2013-05-31 08:23:23 am

HELLO!

That adds the requirement that you now have to *speed* run both games, rather than just casually get the chips in a minimal effort way on the other cart.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2013-05-31 08:29:29 am

Claimh Happy

....and I care because? Are we not talking about a "speed" run of 100% between related games?

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-05-31 08:34:09 am

2013-05-31 08:33:32 am

HELLO!

I thought we were talking about a 100% speed run of a single game, that happens to need trades from the other game.

Anyway, I just don't see the value add in requiring the footage from the other game.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2013-05-31 08:37:25 am

Claimh Happy

Because you can't get 100% without that other game. If you can trade without needing footage from that game, there's no reason you shouldn't trade everything you can. 100% is not built into that one game. If you want to do it with only that game, just do max% and get everything within the game.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-31 08:59:51 am

I was thinking of waiting until I had 200/200 standard chips, the initial game beaten, Bass GS defeated, the time trials completed, and 81/85 Mega chips completed before trading to ensure that the only benefit from trading is just to complete the library. The game is quite literally the same game, but with only 1 different enemy. Adding that footage would make the run pointless because that would add hours to the run just to see the same thing (more or less) twice over.

I'm running Battle Network 1 right now to pass the time. I ordered a new capture device to record. I'm aiming for a single segment run eventually. Then I'm moving on to 2. This 100% run for 3 is sort of my Magnum Opus. In the meantime, I would like to discuss this game's 100% definition. Most people say that making the trade is not really a big deal. To be fair, the trade time is added to the in-game clock. So it still simulates someone actually beating the game 100%. Adding another game in there would technically make it a two game run, which would be classifies oddly as (Game 100% and NG+). However, the NG+ is not the same game, so I would have to switch carts.

I was thinking of waiting until I had 200/200 standard chips, the initial game beaten, Bass GS defeated, the time trials completed, and 81/85 Mega chips completed before trading to ensure that the only benefit from trading is just to complete the library. The game is quite literally the same game, but with only 1 different enemy. Adding that footage would make the run pointless because that would add hours to the run just to see the same thing (more or less) twice over.

I'm running Battle Network 1 right now to pass the time. I ordered a new capture device to record. I'm aiming for a single segment run eventually. Then I'm moving on to 2. This 100% run for 3 is sort of my Magnum Opus. In the meantime, I would like to discuss this game's 100% definition. Most people say that making the trade is not really a big deal. To be fair, the trade time is added to the in-game clock. So it still simulates someone actually beating the game 100%. Adding another game in there would technically make it a two game run, which would be classifies oddly as (Game 100% and NG+). However, the NG+ is not the same game, so I would have to switch carts.

Mystery

2013-05-31 09:13:05 am

Continuing the comparison to NG+:
The only thing that is different here is that you are not running the same game twice, but once another game and once the game you want to run.
Do we include video for the first run of a game before doing a NG+? No. Then why should this be different?
Whether you should trade as many chips as possible or only the required really depends on the category.
In true 100%, this very much looks like a NG+, and as such, it seems that it would be best that you trade as many chips as required to get as fast a run as possible. If there are chips you can trade that will speed things up, then it would seem best to do so.

presjpolk

2013-05-31 09:28:00 am

HELLO!

Idea: Break it up into two runs. a 4 (or whatever) star NG run, then make it an NG+ run for the trades and the remaining stars.

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-31 10:03:46 am

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-31 10:01:32 am

2013-05-31 10:00:24 am

I have created a list of various possible runs for this game:

MMBN3 Speed Run:
Complete the main game (Already done by another runner)

MMBN3 4-star Run:
Complete the main game, defeat Bass GS, Complete Time Trials, All Standard Chips

MMBN3 4-star (Version Maximized - Technically 100% of the individual game, literally only about 85%): Complete the main game, defeat Bass GS, Complete Time Trials, All Standard Chips, 81/85 Mega Chips, Complete 31/32 PA combos

MMBN3 7-star Run (Minimal Trade Assistance - The true and literal method of 100%):
Complete the main game, Defeat Bass GS, Complete the Time Trials, Collect all Standard Chips, Collect 81/85 - THEN trade Mistman 1-4, Defeat Omega Navis, Complete PA Library

---
There are no recorded glitches for MMBN3, so until then, this is the easiest way to get the MistMan Chips. Perhaps another method will be found eventually, but it is unlikely.

*Also 2 and 3 star runs can be done, but to no added effect. May as well run 1 or 4.

Mystery

2013-05-31 10:15:21 am

Quote from Prismatic Black:

MMBN3 7-star Run (Minimal Trade Assistance - The true and literal method of 100%):
Complete the main game, Defeat Bass GS, Complete the Time Trials, Collect all Standard Chips, Collect 81/85 - THEN trade Mistman 1-4, Defeat Omega Navis, Complete PA Library

I am not going to agree that's the true and literal 100% method.
Because you have access to chips from a "previous playthrough," you should use those as efficiently as possible, which means trading and using them whenever convenient.
Both are valid approaches, though, and they are separate categories, but that's what I would call 100%. Your definition is a little weird - 100% with handicaps.

presjpolk

2013-05-31 10:24:10 am

HELLO!

That is a good point. Once you allow trading, go whole hog?

Prismatic Black

2013-05-31 10:53:03 am

I could do that I suppose, but my conscious want to alter the gameplay as little as possible. Haha. I think it'd make for a more interesting run. I do suppose it is still fair to use the MistMan Chips when I get them. Looking at NG+ files, runners exploit the advantages ASAP to get a faster time. Plus it would, although not by much, make the run a bit faster. I'm looking at it as more of a challenge, rather than a run. It still would be minimal trade assistance. In fact it would really be minimal trade NECESSITY. I think people who know the game would understand.