Question about 100% completion via multiple game carts?

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-27 10:59:58 pm

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-27 10:59:29 pm

2013-05-27 10:29:02 pm

I want to do a run that requires another version of the game to unlock to ability to beat the game 100%. These are my concerns:

1) I want to run Megaman Battle Network 3: Blue as a 7-Star Run. This is essentially a 100% completion in essence.
2) To beat the game, I need to trade a few battle chips from White to Blue (MistMan, MistManV2, MistManV3, MistManV4).
3) The chips I need to trade in White must be obtained by completing a certain amount of goals in the game. However, this is not the game I wish to run.
4) Do I have to record:
A) The entire Blue Version run and the portion of the White Version run up until the trade is made?
B) Just the Blue Version run with the trade time counted in with my run?
or
C) Is this not allowed in any circumstance?

I can elaborate if needed, but would appreciate some assistance with this. Thank you.

Thread title:

UraniumAnchor

2013-05-27 10:31:09 pm

Not a walrus

Did you mean to post this twice?

Prismatic Black

2013-05-27 10:32:55 pm

I didn't. I hit tab to try to make an indention in my list, and thought my post was deleted. I think it actually quick posted. I apologize for that.

UraniumAnchor

2013-05-27 10:34:29 pm

Not a walrus

Reposting from the other thread then: I think this would just be tagged as 'NG+' if you needed data from another game, but I'm not sure there's another run on the site like it.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-27 10:40:19 pm

It's an odd situation. It's like asking if a 100% Pokemon run required that you count the entire run of collecting the Pokemon from both games, or just one run of one of the games including the trading sequences.

That would take forever, but the trade between these two games would be exponentially less time. However, if obtaining these necessary chips would need to be included in the run, then it would be pretty redundant and time-consuming. Basically keeping the run under a decent time would be improbable because this segment would add hours to the run.

Sir VG

2013-05-27 11:46:44 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I think the answer pretty much is gonna come down to this: Can you transfer what you want, does it transfer everything, or is it set what you are allowed to? Like indeed in your Pokemon example, you could do a 100% run between multiple carts, but then you'd realistically have to count times from BOTH carts because you can transfer things in you can get from both games. Then you have games like the Zelda Oracle games where it's pretty set what you can transfer in via password, which then it's probably OK to not count the time from the 1st game when doing the 2nd (or the 3rd run ending).

zewing

2013-05-27 11:56:19 pm

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

Hmm well it's impossible to get 100% in MMBN 3 without getting the mistman chips from white. That being said I'd see no reason to not allow the trading for a run where it is essential for 100%. However concerns over this are "after trading mistman chips you can still trade other things like programs and other chips (like step cross Kreygasm) so I'd imagine as long as a rule is put in place like "Only allowed to trade for mistman V1-4" then I'd see no problem with this.

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-28 12:08:23 am

2013-05-27 11:58:50 pm

It's like a Pokemon game in that I would have to progress in the storyline far enough to make it to the point where I can battle Mistman and get his chips. I would have to get the chips in White Version by battling the different forms, and then I would have to trade them to Blue. It sucks, because it kills so much time for just 4 chips. So I would likely have to play through Blue. then play through White until I can make the trade, and then continue with Blue after the trade. I hate that there are no easier ways to do this, but a 7-star run of this game would be impressive. Alternatively, I could do a side-by-side run of both games, and try to beat both with 100% completion by trading Mistman with Bowlman. That would be interesting, but would probably not be allowed. It would be cool for a side project, but I can't logistically see how it is possible to have it accepted in that format.

Onin

2013-05-28 04:04:34 am

Wouldn't it be possible to ignore the chips (or the pokemon or whatever it is) that the base game is unable to achieve, gather every available collectible, and call it a 90% run or something like that?

Stormknight

2013-05-28 06:48:40 am

Now Reap The Whirlwind!

Getting to the root of the matter, I don't think you would need to count what you played from the side game. You are only running one game, you don't need the second run. I thought of it like a new game + run. If you wanted to plan a run like that, you don't need to include playing the game normally in the run. You just start at new game +. Same with this. You are playing one game and the other game (or file) is just giving you things that you need. It should be mentioned that it's a different category but I don't think you need to include gameplay from the other game. That's my opinion.

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-28 10:46:35 am

2013-05-28 10:45:49 am

Quote from Onin:

Wouldn't it be possible to ignore the chips (or the pokemon or whatever it is) that the base game is unable to achieve, gather every available collectible, and call it a 90% run or something like that?

Unfortunately MMBN3 is a weird game, so without the trade, I would only get about 4-stars. I could call it a 4-star run, and then calculate the completion percentage. To the average gamer, it would seem like a very mediocre percentage, unfortunately.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-28 10:46:46 am

Quote from Stormknight:

Getting to the root of the matter, I don't think you would need to count what you played from the side game. You are only running one game, you don't need the second run. I thought of it like a new game + run. If you wanted to plan a run like that, you don't need to include playing the game normally in the run. You just start at new game +. Same with this. You are playing one game and the other game (or file) is just giving you things that you need. It should be mentioned that it's a different category but I don't think you need to include gameplay from the other game. That's my opinion.

This was mentioned earlier, and now that you put it that way it sounds like it would be acceptable. The best way I can really explain it is with the Pokemon example. It would be like collecting the Pokemon in one version and trading to the other. This would be significantly less boring than that because the trade only takes about 5 minutes, and way more can be done with the game once the trade is made.

No one would want to see a 100% speed run of Pokemon if it involved recording that many trades. That would take a long time. Few people would want to see someone play one version of the game up to one point, just to play the other in the same way also. Fortunately if the former is all that is needed, this would be a great run. If the latter is all that is needed, this would be lame.

[quote="Stormknight"]Getting to the root of the matter, I don't think you would need to count what you played from the side game. You are only running one game, you don't need the second run. I thought of it like a new game + run. If you wanted to plan a run like that, you don't need to include playing the game normally in the run. You just start at new game +. Same with this. You are playing one game and the other game (or file) is just giving you things that you need. It should be mentioned that it's a different category but I don't think you need to include gameplay from the other game. That's my opinion. [/quote]

This was mentioned earlier, and now that you put it that way it sounds like it would be acceptable. The best way I can really explain it is with the Pokemon example. It would be like collecting the Pokemon in one version and trading to the other. This would be significantly less boring than that because the trade only takes about 5 minutes, and way more can be done with the game once the trade is made.

No one would want to see a 100% speed run of Pokemon if it involved recording that many trades. That would take a long time. Few people would want to see someone play one version of the game up to one point, just to play the other in the same way also. Fortunately if the former is all that is needed, this would be a great run. If the latter is all that is needed, this would be lame.

Blubbler

2013-05-28 11:28:42 am

Is this segmented? Couldn't you have both windows next to each other. Like if two people would do Pokemon 100% in real-time, they'd start at the same time and then each would play their own game and then they'd trade, if you know what I mean.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-28 11:32:33 am

Quote from Blubbler:

Is this segmented? Couldn't you have both windows next to each other. Like if two people would do Pokemon 100% in real-time, they'd start at the same time and then each would play their own game and then they'd trade, if you know what I mean.

I said something about doing a side-by-side run of both versions, and trying to complete both 100% at around the same time. It would be cool, but essentially the gameplay is identical in the long run. I would have records for both versions, which would be kinda cool. It would need to be done segmented, because it is such a long game, and game overs kill the run.

zewing

2013-05-28 12:09:41 pm

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

U can't compare thsi to pokemon. Pokemon can be 100%'d without trading from other carts. MMBN 3 is IMPOSSIBLE to 100% without the use of trading so if it were me I would allow this but the true question is "When do you allow mistman to be traded"? I'd assume as early as possible would be allowed as long as it's only those 4 chips that are traded and no other programs

grassini

2013-05-28 02:59:43 pm

Just as some games aren't suitable for a speedrun,not all games are suitable for 100% speedruns.Until some trick is discovered to enable mistman chips,i think it's better to forget this category at least for submission to SDA.Why not run the other mmbn games?They're pretty cool too(and shorter than the 100% run of mmbn3 lol).You could still run the category how you see fit,regardless of the acceptance.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-28 03:24:45 pm

Quote from zewing:

U can't compare thsi to pokemon. Pokemon can be 100%'d without trading from other carts. MMBN 3 is IMPOSSIBLE to 100% without the use of trading so if it were me I would allow this but the true question is "When do you allow mistman to be traded"? I'd assume as early as possible would be allowed as long as it's only those 4 chips that are traded and no other programs

The benefit of this is that there is an in-game timer that essentially keeps track of the minutes passed in the save, so trading a bunch of things would not be feasible to do in a short time. It's probably not something that SDA would allow in the end.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-28 03:25:37 pm

Quote from grassini:

Just as some games aren't suitable for a speedrun,not all games are suitable for 100% speedruns.Until some trick is discovered to enable mistman chips,i think it's better to forget this category at least for submission to SDA.Why not run the other mmbn games?They're pretty cool too(and shorter than the 100% run of mmbn3 lol).You could still run the category how you see fit,regardless of the acceptance.

I think I'll do a run of MMBN and MMBN2 because no one has submitted one oddly enough...

I think this one just can't be done 100% unfortunately. Such a shame.

Mystery

Edit history:

Mystery: 2013-05-28 08:25:47 pm

2013-05-28 08:25:41 pm

I see no difference between this and NG+.
In NG+, you already have stuff since your previous playthrough, or can get it later on in the game. But the point is - the time to do that run to get to point of being able to do NG+ is not counted towards the time.
The only difference here is that the NG+ stuff is coming from another game. Seeing as they are the same, clearly it should not counted towards the time.
This is an opinion, though, and not a fact, so don't interpret as something official.

Prismatic Black

2013-05-28 09:07:17 pm

Quote from Mystery:

I see no difference between this and NG+.
In NG+, you already have stuff since your previous playthrough, or can get it later on in the game. But the point is - the time to do that run to get to point of being able to do NG+ is not counted towards the time.
The only difference here is that the NG+ stuff is coming from another game. Seeing as they are the same, clearly it should not counted towards the time.
This is an opinion, though, and not a fact, so don't interpret as something official.

It's quite literally the same game. So that makes sense. If I can get an official verifier that knows a lot about this particular game to explain how it would work, I would be quite content.

ZenicReverie

2013-05-28 09:38:24 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Here's a few random points that I didn't bother putting into an argument because I don't think I'd mind either way:

NG+ usually is from a loaded save, not a trade of resources.
In NG+, you're usually expected to max out your potential for speed by having the best items, stats, etc. (whatever transfers).
It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.

Is the only purpose of the transfer to increase the % complete, or do the traded items make the game go faster?

Mystery

2013-05-28 09:43:44 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

NG+ usually is from a loaded save, not a trade of resources.

In some games, you have the option to start NG+ not by loading an existing save, but simply by having completed the game.
Furthermore, in some games, there are items that may be acquired later in the game that are unavailable in normal game.
So I'd consider trading as "getting items later in the game."

Quote:

It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.

But this is only for 100%, not for any%. Plus, the argument is that these items MUST be traded in order to get 100%, so there's no avoiding if running this category.

Prismatic Black

Edit history:

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-28 09:59:49 pm

Prismatic Black: 2013-05-28 09:59:36 pm

2013-05-28 09:58:41 pm

Mystery is right about all of this. The only way to beat the game as a 7-star (100%) run is to trade with the other version. Otherwise, the game can only be beaten about 57% (4 stars). TECHNICALLY, in games with an NG+ option required for 100%, a person could start a NG+ file from a prior save without having to include the first playthrough in his or her run. This would essentially be a NG+ save because the White version of the game is the same game, just with one different navi battle than in Blue.

MMBN 4 is actually a hybrid of this and has a NG++ option. You have to play the game two times through to get everything in that game, but it's all on one cartridge. You trade chips between Red Sun and Blue Moon. However, that game is terrible, so someone else can run that. Haha.

"What a polite young man she was". - Lan's Mom, MMBN4

S.

2013-05-29 12:13:44 am

Quote from grassini:

Just as some games aren't suitable for a speedrun,not all games are suitable for 100% speedruns.Until some trick is discovered to enable mistman chips,i think it's better to forget this category at least for submission to SDA.Why not run the other mmbn games?They're pretty cool too(and shorter than the 100% run of mmbn3 lol).You could still run the category how you see fit,regardless of the acceptance.

Outright banning a game just because of a something that is just a bit unusual is imo silly.

Since you're running this game and not the other, I'd say just run the game and keep the 'minimalist' approach: Only trade what is ABSOLUTELY necessary to get 100% and CANNOT be obtained within the game itself, and nothing else.

The actual obtainment of these items is not actually part of this particular game, and therefore should imo not be needed to record or timed.
By trading those items, and only those, you keep the game in its 'purest' form possible at which it is still beatable.

Does it matter whether this is called NG+ or not? This is just how the game works.

Just my two cents.

[quote="grassini"]Just as some games aren't suitable for a speedrun,not all games are suitable for 100% speedruns.Until some trick is discovered to enable mistman chips,i think it's better to forget this category at least for submission to SDA.Why not run the other mmbn games?They're pretty cool too(and shorter than the 100% run of mmbn3 lol).You could still run the category how you see fit,regardless of the acceptance.
[/quote]
Outright banning a game just because of a something that is just a bit unusual is imo silly.

Since you're running this game and not the other, I'd say just run the game and keep the 'minimalist' approach: Only trade what is ABSOLUTELY necessary to get 100% and CANNOT be obtained within the game itself, and nothing else.

The actual obtainment of these items is not actually part of this particular game, and therefore should imo not be needed to record or timed. 
By trading those items, and only those, you keep the game in its 'purest' form possible at which it is still beatable.

Does it matter whether this is called NG+ or not? This is just how the game works.

Just my two cents.

Melodia

2013-05-29 12:18:11 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

It's best to keep categories contained to a single game. Requiring other potential runners to purchase multiple copies of a game or games in a series detracts from the draw for potential runners.

How is that different from requiring runners to buy ":the Japanese 1.0" (or whatever else....not to mention converters/consoles to play em on)?