PORTAL (Source)

2013-06-12 03:43:22 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from ToxicOxygen:

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

Quote from ToxicOxygen:

As most of you probably saw by now, portal now have IL table for advanced chambers. Unfortunantly I feel like some chambers were not done really well. Especially I'm thinking about chamber 13, (he got stuck with the cube for like 2 seconds) chamber 14 (It's not 3 seconds) chamber 15 (didn't use fastest route in 3 different sections) and the Oob runs of 15 and 18 (didn't use cliiping glitch which is much faster). I would've try to improve it by myself, but for some reason portal isn't working for me. So I was wondering if someone else is going to improve it - I wont bother looking into my problem if someone good, that I can't really compete with, will be attempting to get it.

They're all improveable, but we (the verifiers) wanted to actually get a table on the site so people could improve on it. Be advised, though, that the routes in Portal Done Proer aren't all optimal anymore, and the routes we're using for pdufscl&iawig are almost 100% new once we get past ch 12.

I actually know that, I've been following Pdufscl&iawig progress at Sully's stream, but what I've been asking is - will you or any other good portal player try to improve that in the near future?

The IL table? I don't think any of us are interested in that, since we're working on HL2 and portal inbounds at the same time. I'm in Sweden currently, so I don't have a lot of time either lol. So if you want to improve them, feel free.

[quote="ToxicOxygen"][quote="z1mb0bw4y"][quote="ToxicOxygen"]As most of you probably saw by now, portal now have IL table for advanced chambers. Unfortunantly I feel like some chambers were not done really well. Especially I'm thinking about chamber 13, (he got stuck with the cube for like 2 seconds) chamber 14 (It's not 3 seconds) chamber 15 (didn't use fastest route in 3 different sections) and the Oob runs of 15 and 18 (didn't use cliiping glitch which is much faster). I would've try to improve it by myself, but for some reason portal isn't working for me. So I was wondering if someone else is going to improve it - I wont bother looking into my problem if someone good, that I can't really compete with, will be attempting to get it.[/quote]

They're all improveable, but we (the verifiers) wanted to actually get a table on the site so people could improve on it. Be advised, though, that the routes in Portal Done Proer aren't all optimal anymore, and the routes we're using for pdufscl&iawig are almost 100% new once we get past ch 12.[/quote]

I actually know that, I've been following Pdufscl&iawig progress at Sully's stream, but what I've been asking is - will you or any other good portal player try to improve that in the near future? [/quote]

The IL table? I don't think any of us are interested in that, since we're working on HL2 and portal inbounds at the same time. I'm in Sweden currently, so I don't have a lot of time either lol. So if you want to improve them, feel free.

S.

2013-06-12 08:04:20 pm

The portal IL table still makes no sense to me.

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-07-24 05:35:04 am

2013-07-24 05:33:25 am

Gets the cake.

This is a progress update. Just so everyone knows, this run will be changing routes that have been in place since the game launched. Chamber 07 is a great example, and hopefully we'll be able to give you guys some more surprises.

Imanex

2013-07-25 04:39:20 am

So glad that this run is back alive and running. It should be so good once it is finished!
Progress At the moment : 00-09 Complete.

S.

2013-07-25 07:06:01 am

cl_interp 0.000000000000001
demo_interplimit 99999999999

z1mb0bw4y

2013-07-25 07:15:42 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from S.:

cl_interp 0.000000000000001
demo_interplimit 99999999999

meh. That's likely the last route video until the final run comes out anyways.

That said, I found a couple glitches that should allow us to push the time sub-12. Should be fun =P

z1mb0bw4y

2013-07-27 08:23:43 pm

Gets the cake.

Unless we decide to step back and improve anything, we're up to chamber 13 now. Not gonna spoil how we did it, but we saved 20s on ch. 11-12 alone. If we copied and pasted the rest of kingpin's segments onto our run, our current time would be 12:38 now, which puts sub-12 pretty reasonably in our sights. HUZZAH!

Imanex

2013-07-28 03:18:47 am

So 11-12 is fine (After I checked it once I returned) and we moved onto chamber 13 which is now finished. So we are still on a fast pace with completion with the run. Chamber 14 now Smiley

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-07-28 06:22:14 pm

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-07-28 11:17:47 am

2013-07-28 10:50:09 am

Gets the cake.

So after I discovered a new trick in ch18, we had a bit of a long discussion about what we truly think OoB is defined as, and we came up with a set of limitations for ourselves during this run.

1. OoB is any place where you will get stuck if you fall and you're not near a portal (in recent Steam versions). To clarify, it's any area where you are not able to "easily" move.

2. No portals may travel through or be placed in OoB space. Objects may not be placed OoB EXCEPT for novelty purposes. (Example: Bugging objects OoB during cutscenes to make them more interesting, in situations where we CLEARLY gain no benefit from them being OoB).

3. In "strange" cases where the player's physical body and the camera may be separated, such as edge glitching and save glitching, the "camera" must stay inbounds at all times. This is a little loose and unclear, but what I mean is the version of chell that you are obviously controlling must stay inbounds. Now, we allow ourselves to clip through doors or windows IF AND ONLY IF every point of space we clip through is itself inbounds. In other words, we can save glitch and walk through the glass in escape_01 (just after the rocket turret), but we can't use the OoB route in chamber 13 that we use in PDPr (where we phys deform the chair and go flying straight to the elevator) because we would have to clip through an area that is obviously OoB space.
(edit: Basically this guideline states "The physical body doesn't matter anymore, as long as everything else happens inbounds." Since the physical body can't hit triggers or anything, and the camera has to do all of that, it's like the game doesn't even think the physical body exists. That's why I think trying to worry about it is ridiculous.)

4. In all other cases, if the PLAYER VIEW goes OoB, but no benefit is specifically gained from it, that's generally okay. For example, sometimes it's impossible to avoid looking OoB while doing quantum crouching, or while flinging out of portals. But as long as the other rules are followed, and we gain no benefit, we consider this okay.

Hopefully this is agreeable for everyone. We're going to finish the run with these restrictions and submit to SDA, and if the verifiers don't agree with our definition I think we're all okay with that. However, if anyone has any major issues with this definition, feel free to bring it up!

edit: In case you're curious, these guidelines do allow for the trick I found, since our "camera" and portals never go OoB. I don't want to spoil the trick though =P

So after I discovered a new trick in ch18, we had a bit of a long discussion about what we truly think OoB is defined as, and we came up with a set of limitations for ourselves during this run.

1. OoB is any place where you will get stuck if you fall and you're not near a portal (in recent Steam versions). To clarify, it's any area where you are not able to "easily" move.

2. No portals may travel through or be placed in OoB space. Objects may not be placed OoB EXCEPT for novelty purposes. (Example: Bugging objects OoB during cutscenes to make them more interesting, in situations where we CLEARLY gain no benefit from them being OoB).

3. In "strange" cases where the player's physical body and the camera may be separated, such as edge glitching and save glitching, the "camera" must stay inbounds at all times. This is a little loose and unclear, but what I mean is the version of chell that you are obviously controlling must stay inbounds. Now, we allow ourselves to clip through doors or windows IF AND ONLY IF every point of space we clip through is itself inbounds. In other words, we can save glitch and walk through the glass in escape_01 (just after the rocket turret), but we can't use the OoB route in chamber 13 that we use in PDPr (where we phys deform the chair and go flying straight to the elevator) because we would have to clip through an area that is obviously OoB space. 
(edit: Basically this guideline states "The physical body doesn't matter anymore, as long as everything else happens inbounds." Since the physical body can't hit triggers or anything, and the camera has to do all of that, it's like the game doesn't even think the physical body exists. That's why I think trying to worry about it is ridiculous.)

4. In all other cases, if the PLAYER VIEW goes OoB, but no benefit is specifically gained from it, that's generally okay. For example, sometimes it's impossible to avoid looking OoB while doing quantum crouching, or while flinging out of portals. But as long as the other rules are followed, and we gain no benefit, we consider this okay.

Hopefully this is agreeable for everyone. We're going to finish the run with these restrictions and submit to SDA, and if the verifiers don't agree with our definition I think we're all okay with that. However, if anyone has any major issues with this definition, feel free to bring it up!

edit: In case you're curious, these guidelines do allow for the trick I found, since our "camera" and portals never go OoB. I don't want to spoil the trick though =P

CBenni

2013-07-28 12:49:18 pm

Your ch18 trick benefits of the fact that 50% of the players' hitbox is OoB - you consider that inbounds? Tough decision to make. I wouldnt consider it inbounds, but that is not my point to decide.

S.

Edit history:

S.: 2013-07-28 03:58:53 pm

2013-07-28 03:58:29 pm

2. This seems like an arbitrary and unnecessary exception to me. Although not placing the exception would certainly limit what you can do, as it is very easy to accidentally clip stuff OoB that you wouldnt even know existed. Then again, the distinction between "accidentally" and "on purpose" is hard to tell sometimes. I guess you should refrain from pushing stuff OoB just for the sake of pushing them OoB though.

3. The Portal is being shot from the non-camera player though right? Just a reminder you want to make sure rule 1 still applies when rule 3 is in effect. But I think you got that covered.

I don't know what the trick in 18 is, so I can't judge it.
You're being quite stupid here, asking people for confirmation/issues, but not giving them the required information to do so. From the sound of it this trick is VERY borderline.

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-07-28 06:44:10 pm

2013-07-28 06:22:34 pm

Gets the cake.

Quote from CBenni:

Your ch18 trick benefits of the fact that 50% of the players' hitbox is OoB - you consider that inbounds? Tough decision to make. I wouldnt consider it inbounds, but that is not my point to decide.

I challenge you to find ANY way to tell the location of the physical body during save glitch or edge glitch. That's why we're going with just the location of the "camera", since it's obvious where that is. This has been a point of contention for years, but I think it's stupid to wonder about where some ghost version of chell is half the time. Even if it is OoB, there's no way for the player to tell, unless a portal is fired into OoB space, at which point guideline #1 has been broken anyways.

This rule already exists for inbounds SS runs (and segmented runs) anyways, but stated less obviously.

-In ch 04-05 SS runs do the same save glitch that we do, and it's questionable where the "physical body" is at any point during this trick.
-In ch 18 SS runs do an edge glitch to skip the door to the final area. It's impossible to tell if part of the "physical body" is clipping OoB during this trick, but since all the portal shots happen inbounds it's considered inbounds.
-This ch18 trick, skipping past the glass in escape_01, and any other save glitch or edge glitch have unclear locations of the physical body.

Since the location of the physical body isn't knowable in every case, we decided to scrap the idea of a "physical body" altogether and just rely on the position of the camera and the rule that we can't shoot portals OoB.

Quote from S.:

2. This seems like an arbitrary and unnecessary exception to me. Although not placing the exception would certainly limit what you can do, as it is very easy to accidentally clip stuff OoB that you wouldnt even know existed. Then again, the distinction between "accidentally" and "on purpose" is hard to tell sometimes. I guess you should refrain from pushing stuff OoB just for the sake of pushing them OoB though.

The exception is to allow us to not be boring in the starting chamber. We gain no benefit from it, so we think it's okay.

Quote from S.:

3. The Portal is being shot from the non-camera player though right? Just a reminder you want to make sure rule 1 still applies when rule 3 is in effect. But I think you got that covered.

Yep! If a portal sticks inbounds, then it was fired from inbounds (except if a seam glitch happens, which isn't the case here), so we know that all of the shooting and sticking and whatnot happens inbounds.

Quote from S.:

I don't know what the trick in 18 is, so I can't judge it.
You're being quite stupid here, asking people for confirmation/issues, but not giving them the required information to do so. From the sound of it this trick is VERY borderline.

We're not asking people to judge the trick, we're asking people to judge the guidelines of our run.

edit: Sully decided to test it, and the "physical body" isn't capable of hitting triggers, or anything else necessary to progress the game at any point really. We think it's proper to just scrap the whole idea of having two bodies and just depend on the position of the player camera.

[quote="CBenni"]Your ch18 trick benefits of the fact that 50% of the players' hitbox is OoB - you consider that inbounds? Tough decision to make. I wouldnt consider it inbounds, but that is not my point to decide.[/quote]

I challenge you to find ANY way to tell the location of the physical body during save glitch or edge glitch. That's why we're going with just the location of the "camera", since it's obvious where that is. This has been a point of contention for years, but I think it's stupid to wonder about where some ghost version of chell is half the time. Even if it is OoB, there's no way for the player to tell, unless a portal is fired into OoB space, at which point guideline #1 has been broken anyways.

This rule already exists for inbounds SS runs (and segmented runs) anyways, but stated less obviously.

-In ch 04-05 SS runs do the same save glitch that we do, and it's questionable where the "physical body" is at any point during this trick. 
-In ch 18 SS runs do an edge glitch to skip the door to the final area. It's impossible to tell if part of the "physical body" is clipping OoB during this trick, but since all the portal shots happen inbounds it's considered inbounds.
-This ch18 trick, skipping past the glass in escape_01, and any other save glitch or edge glitch have unclear locations of the physical body.

Since the location of the physical body isn't knowable in every case, we decided to scrap the idea of a "physical body" altogether and just rely on the position of the camera and the rule that we can't shoot portals OoB.

[quote="S."]2. This seems like an arbitrary and unnecessary exception to me. Although not placing the exception would certainly limit what you can do, as it is very easy to accidentally clip stuff OoB that you wouldnt even know existed. Then again, the distinction between "accidentally" and "on purpose" is hard to tell sometimes. I guess you should refrain from pushing stuff OoB just for the sake of pushing them OoB though.[/quote]

The exception is to allow us to not be boring in the starting chamber. We gain no benefit from it, so we think it's okay.

[quote="S."]3. The Portal is being shot from the non-camera player though right? Just a reminder you want to make sure rule 1 still applies when rule 3 is in effect. But I think you got that covered.[/quote]

Yep! If a portal sticks inbounds, then it was fired from inbounds (except if a seam glitch happens, which isn't the case here), so we know that all of the shooting and sticking and whatnot happens inbounds.

[quote="S."]I don't know what the trick in 18 is, so I can't judge it.
You're being quite stupid here, asking people for confirmation/issues, but not giving them the required information to do so. From the sound of it this trick is VERY borderline.[/quote]

We're not asking people to judge the trick, we're asking people to judge the guidelines of our run.

edit: Sully decided to test it, and the "physical body" isn't capable of hitting triggers, or anything else necessary to progress the game at any point really. We think it's proper to just scrap the whole idea of having two bodies and just depend on the position of the player camera.

z1mb0bw4y

2013-07-28 07:43:39 pm

Gets the cake.

That's the video of the trick in question. I'd give more detail, but I have to leave for work now.

S.

2013-07-28 07:56:56 pm

That trick is no less inbounds as any other edge glitches done in IB runs.

Not sure why THAT inspired a whole discussion about OoB definition.

RabidJellyfish

2013-07-28 08:01:57 pm

I know the portal shots start and end inbounds, but do any portal shots themselves travel out of bounds in between? If so, I'd have to disagree with this being in the in bounds run. I mean, I don't speedrun Portal (I've seen a lot of runs for it though) so I don't think I have much authority here, but that's just my opinion.

z1mb0bw4y

2013-07-28 08:12:14 pm

Gets the cake.

Quote from RabidJellyfish:

I know the portal shots start and end inbounds, but do any portal shots themselves travel out of bounds in between? If so, I'd have to disagree with this being in the in bounds run. I mean, I don't speedrun Portal (I've seen a lot of runs for it though) so I don't think I have much authority here, but that's just my opinion.

nope, the portals travel solely through inbounds space. I get what you mean though, like if we found a crazy seam glitch where we could shoot a portal from inbounds, then it travels oob, then lands back inbounds or something, that would obviously not be legitimate.

And we were pretty sure that this was inbounds, but we figured that these glitches were getting to the point where it was iffy whether this run was even actually inbounds.

There's actually another part we're worried about, where we see OoB while quantum crouched, but we don't use it for anything. That's why I felt like the 4th guideline was important, so that we aren't constantly worried about "oh crap, what if we accidentally see into the void!"

[quote="RabidJellyfish"]I know the portal shots start and end inbounds, but do any portal shots themselves travel out of bounds in between? If so, I'd have to disagree with this being in the in bounds run. I mean, I don't speedrun Portal (I've seen a lot of runs for it though) so I don't think I have much authority here, but that's just my opinion.[/quote]

nope, the portals travel solely through inbounds space. I get what you mean though, like if we found a crazy seam glitch where we could shoot a portal from inbounds, then it travels oob, then lands back inbounds or something, that would obviously not be legitimate.

And we were pretty sure that this was inbounds, but we figured that these glitches were getting to the point where it was iffy whether this run was even actually inbounds.

There's actually another part we're worried about, where we see OoB while quantum crouched, but we don't use it for anything. That's why I felt like the 4th guideline was important, so that we aren't constantly worried about "oh crap, what if we accidentally see into the void!"

CBenni

2013-07-29 02:57:30 am

The problem about this: between the ceiling (the top of the blue portal) and the wall where z1m shoots through, there is like half a meter of OoB space. When you stand in the edge glitch, half of your body clips through OoB space, which is why I dont think this can be considered inbounds.

z1mb0bw4y

2013-07-29 03:01:14 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from CBenni:

The problem about this: between the ceiling (the top of the blue portal) and the wall where z1m shoots through, there is like half a meter of OoB space. When you stand in the edge glitch, half of your body clips through OoB space, which is why I dont think this can be considered inbounds.

Again, the same thing happens with every edge glitch, for example the one they use to get past the door in SS runs. Part of your "physical body" clips oob. That's why we stopped caring about the "physical body", since the game doesn't even track its position.

S.

2013-07-29 06:10:55 am

You clip OoB in a lot of cases but don't notice. Probably by traveling through portal regularly as well.

CBenni

2013-07-29 03:47:50 pm

Actually, you dont in the normal case (except if you do the clipping glitch-ish fling). The thing where you move through OoB space when normally moving in between portals is purely a demo artifact.

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-08-02 10:26:15 pm

z1mb0bw4y: 2013-08-02 10:20:05 pm

2013-08-02 10:17:25 pm

Gets the cake.

As a quick update on the run itself, we're on ch. 16 now and have been for a couple of days. Our route for this map has changed several times, resulting in many redos, and we are actually struggling to beat Kingpin's time on this map. We might take a loss here, but I think you guys will appreciate the reasoning in the end.

We've also got the routes for ch17, 18, and 19 mostly nailed down, and I can definitely say that 19 is going to be pretty mindblowing. The escape (especially the route to Glados) is still up in the air, and we're still kicking around some ideas. At this point, sub 12 minutes is almost a guarantee for real-time, and our SDA time will probably land around the 12:30 mark (if I had to take a guess).

Another thing to note is that Portal Done Pro-er has been finished for over a year now, and is starting to show its age. During the inbounds run several of us (okay, mostly imanex...) have found routes or tricks that would make the inbounds run a good bit faster, so PDPr might be next on the chopping block for improvement.

edit: as a reminder, people can follow our progress on our googledoc here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aptn40ZAP43TdDRaZU52Ml9iSU1BcktTWGIyWGFuRHc#gid=0
The most important column to pay attention to is delta (seconds), as that's how far ahead of Kingpin's run we estimate ourselves to be.

As a quick update on the run itself, we're on ch. 16 now and have been for a couple of days. Our route for this map has changed several times, resulting in many redos, and we are actually struggling to beat Kingpin's time on this map. We might take a loss here, but I think you guys will appreciate the reasoning in the end.

We've also got the routes for ch17, 18, and 19 mostly nailed down, and I can definitely say that 19 is going to be pretty mindblowing. The escape (especially the route to Glados) is still up in the air, and we're still kicking around some ideas. At this point, sub 12 minutes is almost a guarantee for real-time, and our SDA time will probably land around the 12:30 mark (if I had to take a guess).

Another thing to note is that Portal Done Pro-er has been finished for over a year now, and is starting to show its age. During the inbounds run several of us (okay, mostly imanex...) have found routes or tricks that would make the inbounds run a good bit faster, so PDPr might be next on the chopping block for improvement.

edit: as a reminder, people can follow our progress on our googledoc here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aptn40ZAP43TdDRaZU52Ml9iSU1BcktTWGIyWGFuRHc#gid=0
The most important column to pay attention to is delta (seconds), as that's how far ahead of Kingpin's run we estimate ourselves to be.

ToxicOxygen

Edit history:

ToxicOxygen: 2013-08-03 12:01:01 pm

2013-08-03 12:00:47 pm

Deploying surprise in five, four...

Please finish this run as soon as possible, I simply can't wait to see the result! for what I've seen in youtube & twitch you guys are doing amazing job!

PS: I think most people following this run can understand why you guys have trouble beating Kingpin's time in chamber 16, but I might be wrong about what you're planning. if I''m right I will be completly shocked if you can beat his time...

Fog

2013-08-03 07:34:15 pm

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

Quote from CBenni:

The problem about this: between the ceiling (the top of the blue portal) and the wall where z1m shoots through, there is like half a meter of OoB space. When you stand in the edge glitch, half of your body clips through OoB space, which is why I dont think this can be considered inbounds.

Again, the same thing happens with every edge glitch, for example the one they use to get past the door in SS runs. Part of your "physical body" clips oob. That's why we stopped caring about the "physical body", since the game doesn't even track its position.

Would this also apply to people who do LAG in Chamber 19 and are stuck in the floor (but the camera is always in-bounds)?

z1mb0bw4y

2013-08-03 08:15:18 pm

Gets the cake.

Quote from Fog:

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

Quote from CBenni:

The problem about this: between the ceiling (the top of the blue portal) and the wall where z1m shoots through, there is like half a meter of OoB space. When you stand in the edge glitch, half of your body clips through OoB space, which is why I dont think this can be considered inbounds.

Again, the same thing happens with every edge glitch, for example the one they use to get past the door in SS runs. Part of your "physical body" clips oob. That's why we stopped caring about the "physical body", since the game doesn't even track its position.

Would this also apply to people who do LAG in Chamber 19 and are stuck in the floor (but the camera is always in-bounds)?

Yes, though with that trick we shoot a portal inbounds so that we get un-saveglitched nearly instantly. But the LAG glitch is just an acute angle glitch, with the side effect of sometimes save glitching you strangely, so we see no reason not to use it.

z1mb0bw4y

2013-08-03 11:32:46 pm

Gets the cake.

Quote from ToxicOxygen:

Please finish this run as soon as possible, I simply can't wait to see the result! for what I've seen in youtube & twitch you guys are doing amazing job!

PS: I think most people following this run can understand why you guys have trouble beating Kingpin's time in chamber 16, but I might be wrong about what you're planning. if I''m right I will be completly shocked if you can beat his time...

Well we managed to beat Kingpin's time... and then we noticed that the person who recorded the first segment did it in such a way that our demos don't match up properly. D'oh! The good news is that they've already redone the first segment, and they saved even more time!