Phantasy Star III: Generations of Doom

Desregoth

Edit history:

Desregoth: 2013-02-06 07:18:21 pm

2013-02-06 07:14:08 pm

twitch.tv/desregoth

Hello all. As stated in my post in the introduction thread, I'm planning on doing a single segment run of Phantasy Star 3: Generations of Doom as my first speedrun. I searched for an existing thread on this game, but haven't found any, so I'm creating one.

I've looked around and haven't been able to find a run of this game, apart from a TAS in 1:37:55.98 by Acmlm. As such, I'm guessing I'm in for a lot of work, especially for the 3rd Generation. I've done some research, but haven't made much testing yet, so I'm mainly gonna start with info on the glitches I'll end up using and then add more to the thread as I get more testing done. I'm gonna break the game in the three generations, and talk about the glitches that could be useful and about some other ideas on what I'd have to do differently from the TAS, though those will be subject to change as I put more hours into the game.

Also, before we go on, I had a quick question. I'm planning on using Steam's SEGA Genesis & Mega Drive Classics version of the game and I'd like to know if that would be acceptable or if I'll need to get the actual console and cartridge.

Generation 1 (Rhys)

I actually believe I'll be able to largely follow the TAS route for this Generation. The main difference will be in the number of fights. The TAS is able to manipulate things so it can always succeed at running away, which won't be the case for me. As such, in a lot of places, quickly winning a fight is faster than if I were to fail an escape attempt. Since the TAS escapes from more than half the encounters it gets, by simply fighting more I should have enough levels and meseta to beat the 1st generation boss without having to rely on luck.

Another change would probably involve having to stay longer in towns since I'd end up buying more gear and I'd play with the levels of my techniques.

There's one possible glitch that could be used in the 1st Generation, but it would only be useful if I realize I need more meseta. If you sell gear at the start of your game, you can buy an escapipe. Normally, if you use it while in the prison cell, you'll be stuck in the first town and you'll need to restart your game (the king himself tells you that). However, if you activate the cutscene with Lena from as far from possible and press up during it, you'll stay stuck in the prison cell instead of following Lena. From there you can use the escapipe, loot the chests in the dungeon and exit town (since you activated the Lena cutscene, the town exit is no longer blocked).

2nd Generation (Nial)

This one will follow the same route as the TAS and be very short since you're effectively skipping the 2nd Generation. You need to marry Lena since the glitch will only work with Nial. Also, you need to have given Wren or Mieu at least an escapipe during the 1st Generation.

If you use an escapipe at the start of the 2nd Generation with Nial, you get send to the 1st Generation last dungeon, only it is filled with chirpers. Go through the dungeon, beat the boss and Generation over.

3rd Generation (Aron)

First, this time you need to marry Alair. Otherwise you can't activate the flag for the Laya pendant, thus meaning you can't beat the game.

Also, this will need huge changes compared to the TAS. The TAS never fights before the last dungeon since it always succeed in running away from fights and as such never bothers changing gear until the end of the game. In the last dungeon, it goes from level 1 to 36, and 36 just isn't high enough to beat Dark Force without the luck manipulation a TAS provides. As such, I'll need to figure what gear and level I need to be for various parts of the Generation and find the best grinding spots. Also, since the TAS can make sure all its characters always act first, it didn't use the glitch that I will use. Since this is my first time running a RPG, if anyone has general hints on the best ways to test this kinda stuff out, I'm all ears.

The glitch I'll use in this Generation is known as the Pron glitch. The reason for this is that when you trigger the glitch, some letters in your character's names change, thus renaming Aron as Pron. While you transform the Legendary weapons into the Nei weapons, if a character's item list is empty, his/her speed, damage, and defense statistics will change. The speed change depends on the character, the damage change doesn't matter since it won't affect actual damage in battle and the defense drops, but so much that it actually underflows and sets it in the 65400 range (sadly, only the first person in line benefits from the defense, with other characters being considered as having no defense).

The only characters in my party that get a speed boost instead of a speed reductions are Kara and Laya, but given the issue with the defense glitch, it'd probably be best to use it on only 1 of them. I'm tempted to go with Kara as I think always acting first would be more beneficial with slicers than with a bow, but I'll be sure to test for both.

Those are the ideas and glitches for now. As I work on the run itself, I'll be sure to update this thread with more details.

Thread title:

Hello all. As stated in my post in the introduction thread, I'm planning on doing a single segment run of Phantasy Star 3: Generations of Doom as my first speedrun. I searched for an existing thread on this game, but haven't found any, so I'm creating one.

I've looked around and haven't been able to find a run of this game, apart from a TAS in 1:37:55.98 by Acmlm. As such, I'm guessing I'm in for a lot of work, especially for the 3rd Generation. I've done some research, but haven't made much testing yet, so I'm mainly gonna start with info on the glitches I'll end up using and then add more to the thread as I get more testing done. I'm gonna break the game in the three generations, and talk about the glitches that could be useful and about some other ideas on what I'd have to do differently from the TAS, though those will be subject to change as I put more hours into the game.

Also, before we go on, I had a quick question. I'm planning on using Steam's SEGA Genesis & Mega Drive Classics version of the game and I'd like to know if that would be acceptable or if I'll need to get the actual console and cartridge.

[u][b]Generation 1 (Rhys)[/b][/u]

I actually believe I'll be able to largely follow the TAS route for this Generation. The main difference will be in the number of fights. The TAS is able to manipulate things so it can always succeed at running away, which won't be the case for me. As such, in a lot of places, quickly winning a fight is faster than if I were to fail an escape attempt. Since the TAS escapes from more than half the encounters it gets, by simply fighting more I should have enough levels and meseta to beat the 1st generation boss without having to rely on luck.

Another change would probably involve having to stay longer in towns since I'd end up buying more gear and I'd play with the levels of my techniques.

There's one possible glitch that could be used in the 1st Generation, but it would only be useful if I realize I need more meseta. If you sell gear at the start of your game, you can buy an escapipe. Normally, if you use it while in the prison cell, you'll be stuck in the first town and you'll need to restart your game (the king himself tells you that). However, if you activate the cutscene with Lena from as far from possible and press up during it, you'll stay stuck in the prison cell instead of following Lena. From there you can use the escapipe, loot the chests in the dungeon and exit town (since you activated the Lena cutscene, the town exit is no longer blocked).

[u][b]2nd Generation (Nial)[/b][/u]

This one will follow the same route as the TAS and be very short since you're effectively skipping the 2nd Generation. You need to marry Lena since the glitch will only work with Nial. Also, you need to have given Wren or Mieu at least an escapipe during the 1st Generation.

If you use an escapipe at the start of the 2nd Generation with Nial, you get send to the 1st Generation last dungeon, only it is filled with chirpers. Go through the dungeon, beat the boss and Generation over.

[u][b]3rd Generation (Aron)[/b][/u]

First, this time you need to marry Alair. Otherwise you can't activate the flag for the Laya pendant, thus meaning you can't beat the game.

Also, this will need huge changes compared to the TAS. The TAS never fights before the last dungeon since it always succeed in running away from fights and as such never bothers changing gear until the end of the game. In the last dungeon, it goes from level 1 to 36, and 36 just isn't high enough to beat Dark Force without the luck manipulation a TAS provides. As such, I'll need to figure what gear and level I need to be for various parts of the Generation and find the best grinding spots. Also, since the TAS can make sure all its characters always act first, it didn't use the glitch that I will use. Since this is my first time running a RPG, if anyone has general hints on the best ways to test this kinda stuff out, I'm all ears.

The glitch I'll use in this Generation is known as the Pron glitch. The reason for this is that when you trigger the glitch, some letters in your character's names change, thus renaming Aron as Pron. While you transform the Legendary weapons into the Nei weapons, if a character's item list is empty, his/her speed, damage, and defense statistics will change. The speed change depends on the character, the damage change doesn't matter since it won't affect actual damage in battle and the defense drops, but so much that it actually underflows and sets it in the 65400 range (sadly, only the first person in line benefits from the defense, with other characters being considered as having no defense).

The only characters in my party that get a speed boost instead of a speed reductions are Kara and Laya, but given the issue with the defense glitch, it'd probably be best to use it on only 1 of them. I'm tempted to go with Kara as I think always acting first would be more beneficial with slicers than with a bow, but I'll be sure to test for both.

Those are the ideas and glitches for now. As I work on the run itself, I'll be sure to update this thread with more details.

Namisyx

Edit history:

Namisyx: 2014-09-07 10:53:26 am

Namisyx: 2014-09-07 10:52:26 am

2014-09-07 10:51:41 am

twitch.tv/namisyx

Wow, this thread is old, but I can't seem to find any newer relevant ones. (Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?)

Anyway, I've been messing around with this game a lot lately (it's actually my favourite in the series), and there are some things I can add to the above post...

The author of the TAS points out that during much of the first generation, the fights he manipulates favour meseta over exp. That being said, you're right that the only use of the escapipe glitch in Landen is if you find yourself needing money. Note that there's only one chest in the dungeon worth selling, and it contains a Trimate (sells for 250 mes). The others only have dimates which sell for 20 mes each, which can easily be covered by any battles you'd naturally have to fight while travelling from point a to point b. In my preliminary routing, I get it, because the extra money allows you to get Rhys pretty much fully equipped for the rest of his generation really early. (And the detour takes maybe 2 minutes total)

And as for the pron glitch, Kara is most definitely your best bet, especially if you only do it with her. I'm pretty sure that she's the only one that isn't directly negatively affected by the glitch at all. The only downside that comes to mind is that the defense reduction for her is variable, and it is possible that it doesn't get reduced enough to underflow at all, and that would obviously hinder (if not end) a run.

That's all I really have to add for now, but I'm going to keep messing around and see if there's anything of use or note.

(also, is there a newer thread for this game or is this it?)

Wow, this thread is old, but I can't seem to find any newer relevant ones. (Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?)

Anyway, I've been messing around with this game a lot lately (it's actually my favourite in the series), and there are some things I can add to the above post...

The author of the TAS points out that during much of the first generation, the fights he manipulates favour meseta over exp. That being said, you're right that the only use of the escapipe glitch in Landen is if you find yourself needing money. Note that there's only one chest in the dungeon worth selling, and it contains a Trimate (sells for 250 mes). The others only have dimates which sell for 20 mes each, which can easily be covered by any battles you'd naturally have to fight while travelling from point a to point b. In my preliminary routing, I get it, because the extra money allows you to get Rhys pretty much fully equipped for the rest of his generation really early. (And the detour takes maybe 2 minutes total)

And as for the pron glitch, Kara is most definitely your best bet, especially if you only do it with her. I'm pretty sure that she's the only one that isn't directly negatively affected by the glitch at all. The only downside that comes to mind is that the defense reduction for her is variable, and it is possible that it doesn't get reduced enough to underflow at all, and that would obviously hinder (if not end) a run.

That's all I really have to add for now, but I'm going to keep messing around and see if there's anything of use or note.

(also, is there a newer thread for this game or is this it?)

MrStarbird

2014-09-23 04:39:21 pm

Leader of Starbirdia!

I've wanted to do this run for so long as well, and though 1/3 of the game can be skipped, because of the grinding for money early on and the randomness, it makes it very difficult to get a decent time on it. if there were a way to find a glitch like in Phantasy Star II where you can crack the inventory to get any item you want, it'd be a lot more doable. The Pron glitch can be tricky to get it right, so this definitely would need a segmented run.

I love the game, it just is hard to speedrun imo.

Namisyx

2014-09-29 12:52:44 pm

twitch.tv/namisyx

What would you consider a decent time? Casual "speedruns" can be completed in under 5 hours (skipping the 2nd gen) which, for an RPG, is not too bad.

MrStarbird

2014-10-08 09:03:37 am

Leader of Starbirdia!

4-5 hours would probably be good, though the game is really slow and meseta grinding on first generation is a pain. I honestly don't expect under 5 hours, but I would be pleasantly surprised.

Jiseed

2015-07-02 08:27:11 pm

Just like to add something: If you're going to get the Trimate right at the start using the Escapipe make sure you leave via the exit that Lena directs you towards or else she doesn't appear in Shusoran.

Jiseed

Edit history:

Jiseed: 2015-07-04 05:15:55 pm

2015-07-03 07:00:29 pm

I've gotten pretty interested in speedrunning this after my casual playthrough, and combined with what I've read here and my own research it definitely seems doable in a reasonable amount of time. I'll share some of my thoughts and findings here. This assumes you're going Rhys-> Nial -> Aron.

Gen 1:
- The Trimate at the start is almost certainly mandatory in my opinion, as it gives you two hunt knives, a claw and all the consumables you'll need until you reach Aquatica. Probably a good idea to buy a Hunt Armor for Rhys after getting the Sapphire.
- Getting the Hunt Claw for Mieu in Aquatica is also pretty necessary, for both the defense boost and the ability to one shot the stronger monsters.
- Best early spot for grinding Meseta has to be the desert, you usually get 25-50 meseta a fight. Some grinding here to get both a Sword for Rhys (defense boost is really needed), and a gun for Wren is pretty much necessary.
- Getting the Trimates in the Weather Control helps mitigate some grinding in Shusoran later.
- Should focus techs on Giresta and Zan (or maybe even Gra) for the final boss of the chapter.
- Hunt Ribbon is a HUGE defense bonus for very little cost, definitely worth picking up
- Ditto with the Steel Armor
- Grab the close Trimate in the dungeon and do a little grinding to afford a Steel Sword and Steel Claw before proceeding in Shusoran, the defense and damage bonuses are extremely noticeable here.
- Need at least 4 Dimates for the Lyle fight, depending on how unlucky you get.
- Lena is pretty useless, just let her die imo.
- The final dungeon can be a real pain, going to need a lot of Dimates here. Its okay to run often, it seems like Rhys has an easier time escaping than the other generations. Probably due to the lack of a solid Rimit user.
- Make sure you have at least 3 Telepipes before ending this Generation, you cant get any in Aron's chapter until you head over to Landen. Need them for the Gen 2 skip, leaving after getting the aeroparts and leaving the rebel cave.

Gen 2:
- Not much to say, probably best to kill the Rappies you fight for a more consistent outcome. I don't think running saves much time over simply attacking.
- Boss fight is actually pretty tough, should save a decent amount of Dimates for it. You might be able to head into town and buy some beforehand as well. Having a high level Zan here will most likely help with getting rid of the front row. You pretty much have to get lucky and get a reasonable amount of Zans from the boss.

Gen 3:
- Due to how weak all of the party members are at the start its advisable to head down to the surface and grind a bit before getting the Aeroparts. I found that getting a Force Vest and Force Claw for Mieu before heading back up was pretty beneficial. Might be too much grinding though?
- Need to buy 3 more Escapipes in Landen for the rest of the game.
- Map route is pretty standard; just follows the TAS as its quite literally the only way you can go in order to complete the game.
- Unlike Rhys' generation, its almost impossible to run without a cast of Rimit in 3rd gen. Even then, it takes up a turn to do so. You'll be fighting pretty much every battle - unless its a preemptive attack by the party (which is a guaranteed run).
- Since there's a ton of fighting, its REALLY beneficial to get a Pulse Vulcan for Wren asap - it cuts down on fight time pretty substantially in the long run.
- I'm not sold on which way to go back to Skyhaven after Sage's Isle - The direct route through the desert is obvious, but taking the longer way around (Aquatica -> Draconia -> Terminus -> Frigidia) affords you more time in flight, which might mean less encounters. The route is pretty roundabout though, so I don't know.
- Using the Pron glitch on Laya seems to be the best way to go, as even if she gets low speed or high speed she'll still be able to be the main Giresta user in the final 2 boss fights. In addition, it seems like its easier to guarantee a defense underflow for her according to what I've read.
- Pre-Lashute stuff: Get a Planar Claw for Mieu, Planar Slicer for Kara, Royal Armor for Aron, Protector for Wren and maybe a new vest for Mieu. (maybe not the Planar Slicer - I think its beneficial to have Kara using the Royal Emel instead for the final 2 boss fights, as she spends all of her time casting there anyways - but it can speed up the fights leading up to them)
- Tech Priorities are pretty simple: Max Giresta (except for one person who has Rever, Kara or Mieu can do this) and Max Fanbi.
- While you should use the Pulse Vulcan for dungeon fights, ALWAYS equip the Nei Shot before bosses. Their defense is outrageous, and the fixed damage of the Nei Shot is arguably the only way you'll kill either of them in a reasonable amount of time.
- Dark Force has a pretty simple strategy - buff Aron with multiple Fanbi casts, take out the left hand first, then the right hand. Once the hands are dead, start buffing Mieu with Fanbi and attack the body. Have Laya heal every single turn with Giresta. Since we're actually at a decent level for this fight its not too difficult to pull off. Maybe need a bit of luck in killing the left hand, but a buffed Aron and the fixed damage of the Nei Shot should make him go down relatively quickly.

The most dangerous parts of the run are the beginning of Gen1 and the Layan Palaces in Gen1 I think. The meseta grinding isn't actually too bad, probably only 10-15 minutes total in Gen1, and 10 in Gen3. Also, it may be worth fighting out some preemptive attacks for the easy Meseta in Gen1. My test run clocked in at about 5:10 - but that included things like me leaving the game idle for periods of time and exploring Lashute before it turns evil (I hadn't done that before). In addition I frequently got lost in the dungeons, which seem very difficult to memorize due to how similar they all look. So the sub-5 goal is pretty attainable in my opinion.

Edit: Turns out theres a pretty interesting glitch I overlooked, if you surprise an enemy and you try to use a techmique that you dont have enough tp for, it simply auto-wins the battle for whatever reason. By emptying out Mieu's tp before traveling we can do this trick to get some free exp and money in the 3rd gen. Also it can be used in 1st gen once Mieu or Wren's tp have been used up while walking around. In addition, after some research it seems better to skip getting the steel sword in favour of grabbing the ceramic shot for Wren. This helps speed up the fights in the castles as well as trivializing the King of Cille fight for both gen 1 and 2. The steel sword isnt really much of an upgrade after looking at the stat boosts it gives. Lastly, I think its best to forgo the steel claw and simply get another hunt claw and then grab a hunt staff for lyle.

I've gotten pretty interested in speedrunning this after my casual playthrough, and combined with what I've read here and my own research it definitely seems doable in a reasonable amount of time. I'll share some of my thoughts and findings here. This assumes you're going Rhys-> Nial -> Aron.

Gen 1:
- The Trimate at the start is almost certainly mandatory in my opinion, as it gives you two hunt knives, a claw and all the consumables you'll need until you reach Aquatica. Probably a good idea to buy a Hunt Armor for Rhys after getting the Sapphire.
- Getting the Hunt Claw for Mieu in Aquatica is also pretty necessary, for both the defense boost and the ability to one shot the stronger monsters.
- Best early spot for grinding Meseta has to be the desert, you usually get 25-50 meseta a fight. Some grinding here to get both a Sword for Rhys (defense boost is really needed), and a gun for Wren is pretty much necessary.
- Getting the Trimates in the Weather Control helps mitigate some grinding in Shusoran later.
- Should focus techs on Giresta and Zan (or maybe even Gra) for the final boss of the chapter.
- Hunt Ribbon is a HUGE defense bonus for very little cost, definitely worth picking up
- Ditto with the Steel Armor
- Grab the close Trimate in the dungeon and do a little grinding to afford a Steel Sword and Steel Claw before proceeding in Shusoran, the defense and damage bonuses are extremely noticeable here.
- Need at least 4 Dimates for the Lyle fight, depending on how unlucky you get.
- Lena is pretty useless, just let her die imo.
- The final dungeon can be a real pain, going to need a lot of Dimates here. Its okay to run often, it seems like Rhys has an easier time escaping than the other generations. Probably due to the lack of a solid Rimit user.
- Make sure you have at least 3 Telepipes before ending this Generation, you cant get any in Aron's chapter until you head over to Landen. Need them for the Gen 2 skip, leaving after getting the aeroparts and leaving the rebel cave.

Gen 2:
- Not much to say, probably best to kill the Rappies you fight for a more consistent outcome. I don't think running saves much time over simply attacking.
- Boss fight is actually pretty tough, should save a decent amount of Dimates for it. You might be able to head into town and buy some beforehand as well. Having a high level Zan here will most likely help with getting rid of the front row. You pretty much have to get lucky and get a reasonable amount of Zans from the boss.

Gen 3:
- Due to how weak all of the party members are at the start its advisable to head down to the surface and grind a bit before getting the Aeroparts. I found that getting a Force Vest and Force Claw for Mieu before heading back up was pretty beneficial. Might be too much grinding though?
- Need to buy 3 more Escapipes in Landen for the rest of the game.
- Map route is pretty standard; just follows the TAS as its quite literally the only way you can go in order to complete the game.
- Unlike Rhys' generation, its almost impossible to run without a cast of Rimit in 3rd gen. Even then, it takes up a turn to do so. You'll be fighting pretty much every battle - unless its a preemptive attack by the party (which is a guaranteed run).
- Since there's a ton of fighting, its REALLY beneficial to get a Pulse Vulcan for Wren asap - it cuts down on fight time pretty substantially in the long run.
- I'm not sold on which way to go back to Skyhaven after Sage's Isle - The direct route through the desert is obvious, but taking the longer way around (Aquatica -> Draconia -> Terminus -> Frigidia) affords you more time in flight, which might mean less encounters. The route is pretty roundabout though, so I don't know.
- Using the Pron glitch on Laya seems to be the best way to go, as even if she gets low speed or high speed she'll still be able to be the main Giresta user in the final 2 boss fights. In addition, it seems like its easier to guarantee a defense underflow for her according to what I've read.
- Pre-Lashute stuff: Get a Planar Claw for Mieu, Planar Slicer for Kara, Royal Armor for Aron, Protector for Wren and maybe a new vest for Mieu. (maybe not the Planar Slicer - I think its beneficial to have Kara using the Royal Emel instead for the final 2 boss fights, as she spends all of her time casting there anyways - but it can speed up the fights leading up to them)
- Tech Priorities are pretty simple: Max Giresta (except for one person who has Rever, Kara or Mieu can do this) and Max Fanbi.
- While you should use the Pulse Vulcan for dungeon fights, ALWAYS equip the Nei Shot before bosses. Their defense is outrageous, and the fixed damage of the Nei Shot is arguably the only way you'll kill either of them in a reasonable amount of time.
- Dark Force has a pretty simple strategy -  buff Aron with multiple Fanbi casts, take out the left hand first, then the right hand. Once the hands are dead, start buffing Mieu with Fanbi and attack the body. Have Laya heal every single turn with Giresta. Since we're actually at a decent level for this fight its not too difficult to pull off. Maybe need a bit of luck in killing the left hand, but a buffed Aron and the fixed damage of the Nei Shot should make him go down relatively quickly.

The most dangerous parts of the run are the beginning of Gen1 and the Layan Palaces in Gen1 I think. The meseta grinding isn't actually too bad, probably only 10-15 minutes total in Gen1, and 10 in Gen3. Also, it may be worth fighting out some preemptive attacks for the easy Meseta in Gen1. My test run clocked in at about 5:10 - but that included things like me leaving the game idle for periods of time and exploring Lashute before it turns evil (I hadn't done that before). In addition I frequently got lost in the dungeons, which seem very difficult to memorize due to how similar they all look. So the sub-5 goal is pretty attainable in my opinion.

Edit: Turns out theres a pretty interesting glitch I overlooked, if you surprise an enemy and you try to use a techmique that you dont have enough tp for, it simply auto-wins the battle for whatever reason. By emptying out Mieu's tp before traveling we can do this trick to get some free exp and money in the 3rd gen. Also it can be used in 1st gen once Mieu or Wren's tp have been used up while walking around. In addition, after some research it seems better to skip getting the steel sword in favour of grabbing the ceramic shot for Wren. This helps speed up the fights in the castles as well as trivializing the King of Cille fight for both gen 1 and 2. The steel sword isnt really much of an upgrade after looking at the stat boosts it gives. Lastly, I think its best to forgo the steel claw and simply get another hunt claw and then  grab a hunt staff for lyle.

Jiseed

Edit history:

Jiseed: 2015-07-06 02:38:30 am

2015-07-05 11:16:33 pm

Well I got around to doing a timed run, and I clocked in at barely under 4 hours. Route is more or less the same as I describe above, with some small changes in the end game involving buffing Mieu instead of Aron during the Dark Force fight and simply using the Nei Shot instead of using the Pulse Vulcan in Lashute. The grinding segments were pretty horrendous with their luck and I managed to screw up buying escapipes when I needed them, so theres still time to save.

The scariest part of the run is easily the first generation, as I said before. I was pretty lucky with running away in the first half of it, but later on things got pretty dicey. I honestly couldnt believe I won the Lyle fight either, I had pretty much given up as soon as I saw him cast the Zan, but he rolled a low number thankfully. That fight and Cille castle are complete nightmares, and I have no idea how to mitigate them without massive leveling unfortunately.

Second gen is much better now that Wren has the Ceramic Shot, the only problem is that sometimes you'll get hit with 2 back to back zans, which can kill Mieu if you're unlucky. Pretty much just the luck of the draw, 2 dimates on Wren and Nial would probably let you stall for enough time to kill him if this situation occurred though.

Third Gen is pretty much the same, just walking around and hoping for preemptive attacks. Seemed to me like the monsters in Elysium and Landen were still fairly easy to run from, lots of 2nd gen hold-overs. Walking through the desert to return to Skyhaven seemed a tad faster, even though I had a pretty atrocious encounter rate (and run rate against 1st gen monsters). I still think the Pulse Vulcan is worth getting, but I think there's an argument to be made for not getting it, as it seems it doesn't get optimal use unless you get lucky with turn orders. Changing the Dark Force strategy seemed like the right idea, as Mieu always attacks twice as opposed to Aron's one attack. Kara buffing the entire time seems pretty effective too, as her animation is slow and her damage isn't the greatest. This also frees us up from giving Mieu some points in Fanbi, saving a marginal amount of time. Using the Pron glitch was something I was considering dropping as well, but the potential wasted turns from Rulakir and Dark Force more than make up for the small time it takes to set up.

I think thats all I'll say for now, unless I find something really big in the future. If you're interested in watching my run, grab some popcorn and head to the link below.
http://www.twitch.tv/jiseed/c/6927914

Well I got around to doing a timed run, and I clocked in at barely under 4 hours. Route is more or less the same as I describe above, with some small changes in the end game involving buffing Mieu instead of Aron during the Dark Force fight and simply using the Nei Shot instead of using the Pulse Vulcan in Lashute. The grinding segments were pretty horrendous with their luck and I managed to screw up buying escapipes when I needed them, so theres still time to save.

The scariest part of the run is easily the first generation, as I said before. I was pretty lucky with running away in the first half of it, but later on things got pretty dicey. I honestly couldnt believe I won the Lyle fight either, I had pretty much given up as soon as I saw him cast the Zan, but he rolled a low number thankfully. That fight and Cille castle are complete nightmares, and I have no idea how to mitigate them without massive leveling unfortunately.

Second gen is much better now that Wren has the Ceramic Shot, the only problem is that sometimes you'll get hit with 2 back to back zans, which can kill Mieu if you're unlucky. Pretty much just the luck of the draw, 2 dimates on Wren and Nial would probably let you stall for enough time to kill him if this situation occurred though.

Third Gen is pretty much the same, just walking around and hoping for preemptive attacks. Seemed to me like the monsters in Elysium and Landen were still fairly easy to run from, lots of 2nd gen hold-overs. Walking through the desert to return to Skyhaven seemed a tad faster, even though I had a pretty atrocious encounter rate (and run rate against 1st gen monsters). I still think the Pulse Vulcan is worth getting, but I think there's an argument to be made for not getting it, as it seems it doesn't get optimal use unless you get lucky with turn orders. Changing the Dark Force strategy seemed like the right idea, as Mieu always attacks twice as opposed to Aron's one attack. Kara buffing the entire time seems pretty effective too, as her animation is slow and her damage isn't the greatest. This also frees us up from giving Mieu some points in Fanbi, saving a marginal amount of time. Using the Pron glitch was something I was considering dropping as well, but the potential wasted turns from Rulakir and Dark Force more than make up for the small time it takes to set up.

I think thats all I'll say for now, unless I find something really big in the future. If you're interested in watching my run, grab some popcorn and head to the link below.
[url]http://www.twitch.tv/jiseed/c/6927914[/url]

philosoraptor42

2015-07-06 06:58:43 am

Dapper as fuck.

Nice dude, glad to see some work on this one too.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2015-07-07 10:03:32 pm

Learning to Stream

Jiseed... maybe you can explain this... would it not be better to temporarily unequip Lyle before the fight to minimize damage potential? [I presume he gets auto-healed anyway, so draining all TP is worthless]

I am sure I will come up with more questions, as I am only half way into the run, but that was one of the more curious ideas.

Jiseed

Edit history:

Jiseed: 2015-07-08 04:50:54 pm

2015-07-08 04:50:32 pm

From what I can tell the Lyle you fight in Shusoran is an entirely different entity from the one in your party. I've tried unequipping him to lower his defense, maxing Gra to reduce his Zan damage and poisoning him beforehand to absolutely no avail. I really wish there was some way to make him weaker beforehand, but I dont think its possible by manipulating his status before he leaves.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2015-07-08 09:52:26 pm

Learning to Stream

Quote from Jiseed:

From what I can tell the Lyle you fight in Shusoran is an entirely different entity from the one in your party. I've tried unequipping him to lower his defense, maxing Gra to reduce his Zan damage and poisoning him beforehand to absolutely no avail. I really wish there was some way to make him weaker beforehand, but I dont think its possible by manipulating his status before he leaves.

Well that answers that and the next query I had about minimizing Zan... Poop on a stick. Still a very solid clutch win none the less!

MrStarbird

2015-07-09 04:30:01 pm

Leader of Starbirdia!

Nice work, Jiseed! I tried doing this recently, but you're right, a lot has to do with luck in this game.

Is the reason you went with a Sword instead of twin knives/needlers for the defense early on?

Jiseed

2015-07-09 05:01:12 pm

The sword is primarily for the defense, but its early availabilty and the fact that its able to last through the entire generation really sold it to me. Rhys' attack becomes less valuable once we have the ceramic shot, so there's no real reason to upgrade in my opinion. A case could be made for a faster/safer Lyle fight with the knives, but it'd add a lot more grinding pre-shusoran. Same deal with the needlers. If we had some kind of easy cash source, it'd be an entirely different matter of course.

Jiseed

2015-07-10 12:57:39 pm

Well, I got a new PB by almost 30 minutes. Changed up some small stuff like getting Mieu before buying items, not grinding for a Hunt Claw and generally just taking a few more risks in Gen 1. I also took a page from the japanese RTA I skimmed through and changed up where the pre-Shusoran grind takes place. Turns out the monsters just outside the two towns on the island are usually high meseta value ones like the purple rats, and aren't nearly as dangerous as the fearmoos in Shusoran's dungeon. Additionally, I didn't forget to buy escapipes in Gen 3 this time which saved much more time than I thought it would. RNG was actually quite good this time around as well.

My favourite part of the run by far is Cille castle, because it was easily the most stressful part for me. I used up every single healing item I could spare, with the last few being used just before King Cille himself. Tons of close calls with Mieu almost dying, which almost certainly would have ended the run. Quite a relief once King Cille finally went down. I'll include the run in a link below if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.twitch.tv/jiseed/c/6944962

Well, I got a new PB by almost 30 minutes. Changed up some small stuff like getting Mieu before buying items, not grinding for a Hunt Claw and generally just taking a few more risks in Gen 1. I also took a page from the japanese RTA I skimmed through and changed up where the pre-Shusoran grind takes place. Turns out the monsters just outside the two towns on the island are usually high meseta value ones like the purple rats, and aren't nearly as dangerous as the fearmoos in Shusoran's dungeon. Additionally, I didn't forget to buy escapipes in Gen 3 this time which saved much more time than I thought it would. RNG was actually quite good this time around as well.

My favourite part of the run by far is Cille castle, because it was easily the most stressful part for me. I used up every single healing item I could spare, with the last few being used just before King Cille himself. Tons of close calls with Mieu almost dying, which almost certainly would have ended the run. Quite a relief once King Cille finally went down. I'll include the run in a link below if anyone wants to check it out.

[url]http://www.twitch.tv/jiseed/c/6944962[/url]

MrStarbird

2015-07-11 07:20:15 am

Leader of Starbirdia!

The run is awesome! RNGesus seemed to love you. as I'm watching though I had to comment on a couple of things:

I know you get the Hunting Helmet before going to Aquatica and I know you mention the cheap defense, but does the +2 for Rhys make that much of a difference? In my normal runs I usually forsake a helmet all together because of the low defenses compared to other headgears for other characters. Since you buy tons of Monomate anyway, wouldn't it be faster to just forget the defense anyway? When you get the sword it offers you 10x the defense that the helmet does and saves you a bit of grinding.

Nice use of the pre-emptive glitch. That can save a ton of time if the RNG is with you. Another reason early on to keep Mieu's TP low.

Not sure if this was mentioned or not, but from what I can tell the only stat of the Lyle fight that is dependent on your party's Lyle is his Max HP, so keeping him at a low level is helpful. I used to always suggest removing his equipment but I don't think his defense value is dependent on his character. I think this may also be the reason why the designers made his level growth so slow compared to the rest. (This design is also used in the Sari fight, whereas she has 210 HP and after you defeat her in Ayn's quest, she has 210 HP on her)

Something I've always wondered that I've wanted to try out is whether or not the Escapipe glitch works with Adan and what happens if you use one when you get control of him (after using the glitch to skip Nial's generation).

You reference a Japanese RTA run or something that goes through Ayn's generation. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Do you happen to know where I can find it?

Is it just me, or does Alair look great for being over 1000 years old? (and fertile, too).

And here I thought that the Pulse Vulcan only attacked a row like the Ceramic Shot. I wrote two guides (one for RPGClassics and one for Gamefaqs) over 10 years ago and now I find out I had that one wrong. Damn :p

I never thought of stacking Fanbi on Mieu on any of my playthroughs, but damn, seeing her deal over 700 damage to Dark Force really makes that a short fight.

Overall, extremely good run! Other than menuing better and God-like RNG, I can't see much better. The suggestions I have won't save all that much. I'm really glad you put the effort into speedrunning this game. This has long been one of my favorite games and I have so many memories of it as a kid. The music is fabulous (other than the battle musics imo), and the game is so underrated and not appreciated as much as it should be. Yes, it doesn't feel like the other Phantasy Star games, but that's what makes it unique and special. Still a great game for the early 90s and worth the money it cost back then to get it.

The run is awesome! RNGesus seemed to love you. as I'm watching though I had to comment on a couple of things:

I know you get the Hunting Helmet before going to Aquatica and I know you mention the cheap defense, but does the +2 for Rhys make that much of a difference? In my normal runs I usually forsake a helmet all together because of the low defenses compared to other headgears for other characters. Since you buy tons of Monomate anyway, wouldn't it be faster to just forget the defense anyway? When you get the sword it offers you 10x the defense that the helmet does and saves you a bit of grinding.

Nice use of the pre-emptive glitch. That can save a ton of time if the RNG is with you. Another reason early on to keep Mieu's TP low.

Not sure if this was mentioned or not, but from what I can tell the only stat of the Lyle fight that is dependent on your party's Lyle is his Max HP, so keeping him at a low level is helpful. I used to always suggest removing his equipment but I don't think his defense value is dependent on his character. I think this may also be the reason why the designers made his level growth so slow compared to the rest. (This design is also used in the Sari fight, whereas she has 210 HP and after you defeat her in Ayn's quest, she has 210 HP on her)

Something I've always wondered that I've wanted to try out is whether or not the Escapipe glitch works with Adan and what happens if you use one when you get control of him (after using the glitch to skip Nial's generation).

You reference a Japanese RTA run or something that goes through Ayn's generation. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Do you happen to know where I can find it?

Is it just me, or does Alair look great for being over 1000 years old? (and fertile, too).

And here I thought that the Pulse Vulcan only attacked a row like the Ceramic Shot. I wrote two guides (one for RPGClassics and one for Gamefaqs) over 10 years ago and now I find out I had that one wrong. Damn :p

I never thought of stacking Fanbi on Mieu on any of my playthroughs, but damn, seeing her deal over 700 damage to Dark Force really makes that a short fight.

Overall, extremely good run! Other than menuing better and God-like RNG, I can't see much better. The suggestions I have won't save all that much. I'm really glad you put the effort into speedrunning this game. This has long been one of my favorite games and I have so many memories of it as a kid. The music is fabulous (other than the battle musics imo), and the game is so underrated and not appreciated as much as it should be. Yes, it doesn't feel like the other Phantasy Star games, but that's what makes it unique and special. Still a great game for the early 90s and worth the money it cost back then to get it.

Jiseed

2015-07-11 12:57:43 pm

I hate to admit it but the helmet is more of a good luck charm than anything, at least it lasts the entire generation! Lyle's stats for the boss fight are pretty much the same as reported on this site (http://ps3.huguesjohnson.com/enemies-bosses.html), I'm not sure if leveling actually changes anything. Adan's quest is impossible because we cant go to Frigidia to get the real Laya Pendant because we cant pick up Laya herself in Aridia. Aron's team make up is the best in the game anyways, so I'm not complaining.

The link to the Japanese RTA is in pieces, I've gone ahead and skipped over the 1st gen as its pretty similar to what I did except with 2 deaths. This starts you off at Ayn's quest: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26357000.

MrStarbird

2015-07-11 09:50:01 pm

Leader of Starbirdia!

Yeah, I know Adan's quest is impossible. I was more curious as to what would happen (if anything) if you use another Escapipe after entering Adan's quest whether you would end up in Cille or not again and if so, would killing King Cille trigger the end sequence much in the same way it triggers Nial's marriage sequence? (I doubt it would, but I'd have to see it.)

As far as Lyle goes, I remember hacking the rom back in the day to get his HP stats for RPGClassics.com. At level 1, he had 75 HP and at Level 2 he had more. Then again, I'm going off the memory of something I did close to 15 years ago. I'd have to check again, but it didn't look like you had any trouble keeping him at level 1 anyway.

I do agree that Aron's quest makes up the best comp in the game. His line is also the shortest of the final 4 quests with Sean's being the longest. His outfit was always the coolest as well.

Namisyx

2015-08-06 07:03:20 am

twitch.tv/namisyx

Excellent run, Jiseed! There's a lot of little things I could be nitpicky about, like movement and menuing, but it's nice to see a complete run! My attempts are plagued with bad luck D:

Your route is pretty spot on though, and you had some really decent luck

Now time to see if I can't do a faster run Wink

And afaik, using an escapipe at the start of adans quest really only works/is useful if you beat nial's the long way, in which case it brings you to azura, which shaves off some travel time (useful if you wanted to do a run without skipping the second generation...why you'd want to do that, i dunno)... if you do it after skipping nial's quest it certainly does not bring you back to cille

SPER

2017-01-06 09:41:11 pm

The One & Only

I'm sorry if this has been asked in here but after a long day at work i didn't have it in me to sift through it all. I am picking up Phantasy Star 3 & 4 for Speed Running with possibly 2 (still on the fence and meh with 2). I see on SDA there is a "All Generations %" Category for PSIII however I can find little to nothing about it anywhere as Jiseed seems to be the master of all things PS1-PS4 I was hoping may he or another could shed light on this. I am also open to any and all Any% (which is above), 100% info as well for both PSIII & IV.

Thanks Legends!

MrStarbird

2017-01-11 05:41:25 pm

Leader of Starbirdia!

As far as an All Generations %, even that is still up in the air as to the interpretation of that category. Any% uses a glitch that skips the 2nd generation, so I am assuming that All Generations plays through all without glitching, in which case it is STILL faster to go Rhys > Nial > Aron as Aron by far has the shortest and safest route of the 4 endings. Adan would be viable if there wasn't a glitch in Gwen's technique power growth, so it makes Adan's quest a bit harder. Plus, in Aron's quest you can get the Aero Parts quickly, though as mentioned before, you could use the Escapipe glitch to quickly warp to Azura after finishing Nial's quest legit, so it could be up in the air as to which way is better. I will say that going Ayn's route will extend the game quite a bit, as both Sean and Crys have to go through the same path that Nial went through in order to progress.

As far as I know, nobody has attempted all generations, or at least I haven't seen any records of it.

As far as Phantasy Star IV goes, after running all four of them, I will say that this one is by far the hardest to speedrun. The RNG is brutal and even with the right equipment and setup, the Triplets and Lashiec are still a major gateway to finishing the run. That being said, it is still a fun game to speedrun, just be prepared to bang your head against a wall a few times like I have.

The Phantasy Star II speedrun has a few categories, but if you are concerned about the inventory glitching and getting things right for an Any% run (the amount of manipulation through the inventory to get the right items can be frightful at first), then perhaps going the 100% route would be easier. The inventory glitch isn't used all that much and if you know the route for casually playing the game, you can play through this easy enough. The tricks used for 100% (and any%) completely eliminate the amount of grinding needed and the game is 99% safe to run IMO.

I too have run all 4 Phantasy Star games, so feel free to ask me any questions if you cannot find Jiseed. I would be more than happy to work on an All Generation route with you.

As far as an All Generations %, even that is still up in the air as to the interpretation of that category. Any% uses a glitch that skips the 2nd generation, so I am assuming that All Generations plays through all without glitching, in which case it is STILL faster to go Rhys > Nial > Aron as Aron by far has the shortest and safest route of the 4 endings. Adan would be viable if there wasn't a glitch in Gwen's technique power growth, so it makes Adan's quest a bit harder. Plus, in Aron's quest you can get the Aero Parts quickly, though as mentioned before, you could use the Escapipe glitch to quickly warp to Azura after finishing Nial's quest legit, so it could be up in the air as to which way is better. I will say that going Ayn's route will extend the game quite a bit, as both Sean and Crys have to go through the same path that Nial went through in order to progress.

As far as I know, nobody has attempted all generations, or at least I haven't seen any records of it.

As far as Phantasy Star IV goes, after running all four of them, I will say that this one is by far the hardest to speedrun. The RNG is brutal and even with the right equipment and setup, the Triplets and Lashiec are still a major gateway to finishing the run. That being said, it is still a fun game to speedrun, just be prepared to bang your head against a wall a few times like I have.

The Phantasy Star II speedrun has a few categories, but if you are concerned about the inventory glitching and getting things right for an Any% run (the amount of manipulation through the inventory to get the right items can be frightful at first), then perhaps going the 100% route would be easier. The inventory glitch isn't used all that much and if you know the route for casually playing the game, you can play through this easy enough. The tricks used for 100% (and any%) completely eliminate the amount of grinding needed and the game is 99% safe to run IMO.

I too have run all 4 Phantasy Star games, so feel free to ask me any questions if you cannot find Jiseed. I would be more than happy to work on an All Generation route with you.