PC Gamer UK feature on speedrunning

2006-01-03 11:45:45 am

Hi all,

I'm currently working on a possible feature on speedrunning for PC Gamer UK. We're basically looking for a few speedrunning tips by genre, and any outstandingly interesting/cool things you've seen people do in runs.

It'd be great if you guys could help me out, and I'll try and see that everyone who posts something I use gets some kind of mention if the feature goes ahead.

At the moment, I'm interested in FPS / RTS tips - anyone have anything good on Half Life for example?

Also, do you have any ideas of which videos I should check out as a kind of speedrunning basic primer? All the classics?

Thanks.

Thread title:

Aquashark

2006-01-03 12:21:01 pm

omg! wtf?

http://speeddemosarchive.com/gamelist/PC.html

besides the classics Quake & HL runs i recommend Hexen2, Unreal, Morrowind and Serious Sam runs. some Starcraft clips are cool too though, but i'm not sure it will appeal to the unadvised viewer..

henkie

Edit history:

henkie: 2006-01-03 12:23:21 pm

2006-01-03 12:22:46 pm

For tips on halflife:
Half-Life tricks
Half-Life shortcuts. We all greatly anticipate Spider-Waffle's HL run.
Half-Life Blue Shift speed run
Half Life 2 speedrun topic
Forum for HL2DQ They've also got some amazing vids already, even though the run isn't yet complete.

Good for watching are of course the Quake done quick projects, all halflife speed runs. Although not yet submitted, FU3L3D made a new RTCW run, which is also very entertaining to watch. Even though it's not up yet (but should be up shortly) I'd like to plug my own Red Faction run.

General tips on speed running FPS's are not easy to give, as each game has it's own physics and such, but things to look for generally are glitches of any kind, bunny hopping, strafe jumping, mortar/grenade/rocket jumps and such.

I'm not overly familiar with RTS's, but a Starcraft section is up, as well as a Starcraft Broodwar section. And of course the enormous Starcraft topic

For tips on halflife:
[url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1134018730;start=0#0]Half-Life tricks[/url]
[url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1118551288]Half-Life shortcuts[/url]. We all greatly anticipate Spider-Waffle's HL run.
[url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1123565332]Half-Life Blue Shift speed run[/url]
[url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1118552794]Half Life 2 speedrun topic[/url]
[url=http://s7.invisionfree.com/HL2DQ_Temp_Forum/]Forum for HL2DQ[/url] They've also got some amazing vids already, even though the run isn't yet complete.

Good for watching are of course the Quake done quick projects, all halflife speed runs. Although not yet submitted, FU3L3D made a new [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1134368341;start=0#0]RTCW[/url] run, which is also very entertaining to watch. Even though it's not up yet (but should be up shortly) I'd like to plug my own [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1119193022;start=0#0]Red Faction[/url] run.

General tips on speed running FPS's are not easy to give, as each game has it's own physics and such, but things to look for generally are glitches of any kind, bunny hopping, strafe jumping, mortar/grenade/rocket jumps and such.

I'm not overly familiar with RTS's, but a [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/Starcraft.html]Starcraft[/url] section is up, as well as a [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/StarcraftBroodWar.html]Starcraft Broodwar[/url] section. And of course the enormous [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1118552930]Starcraft topic[/url]

nervous_testpilot

2006-01-03 02:54:07 pm

Thanks for the help guys - in the middle of checking out some of the classic runs.

Perhaps a better way of discussing a general approach would be to ask a hypothetical question.

If a new game comes out which is attractive to speedrunners, what are the steps you go through before trying to create a run? Is it a case of simply playing loads, building up techniques for different sections, then stringing them together, or are there particular things that you'd look for?

I'm interested also in any good use of monster jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments from speedruns past that you can recall.

Stubgaard

Edit history:

Stubgaard: 2006-01-03 05:42:27 pm

2006-01-03 05:38:19 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

For Quake specific videos, go to:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/quake/videos.html

All videos are available as AVI's, and most of them has non-fileplanet download links Smiley

Scourge done Slick, Dimension of the Gibbed and the Rabbit Run are recommended.

Quake is the most speedrunned (is that a word?) game, so it would only be fair to include it in your article Wink

HidoiMidoriRyuu

2006-01-03 05:57:47 pm

4NT

My strategy for any game is basically to play it through once to see what can be done and get a feeling for the game. Then play it through repeatedly to test strategies and such. I also write down times for segments (even in a single-segment run times for individual segments are very useful). Then when ready I start recording. If I decide to segment a run early I can use an alternate strategy of combining the repeated test and recording phases. Play through a segment until I have found the best route/strategy and then record. Then to do the same with the next segment.

As for stuff to look for... Well, any gap that you might be able to jump across should be tried. Any obstacle with a slight chance of being passable should also be tried. Any encountered glitch should be evaluated. It might be useful for getting a couple of seconds off taking out a turret or something. Or completely worthless, but fun nevertheless. Or a hindrance that must be avoided at all costs. And if enemies can be used to do your bidding. And do you really have to complete all primary objectives, just to mention a few. Other more seasoned runners can probably come up with better examples, though.

As for NOLF2 (my primary speedrunning project currently) my initial test time for the first mission (chapter 1 + 2) was 7 minutes. Then cut down to 4:15 during training. And it ended on 3:57 in the recorded run. The first chapter still has some room for improvement, but the second one doesn't leave much I think.

My strategy for any game is basically to play it through once to see what can be done and get a feeling for the game. Then play it through repeatedly to test strategies and such. I also write down times for segments (even in a single-segment run times for individual segments are very useful). Then when ready I start recording. If I decide to segment a run early I can use an alternate strategy of combining the repeated test and recording phases. Play through a segment until I have found the best route/strategy and then record. Then to do the same with the next segment.

As for stuff to look for... Well, any gap that you might be able to jump across should be tried. Any obstacle with a slight chance of being passable should also be tried. Any encountered glitch should be evaluated. It might be useful for getting a couple of seconds off taking out a turret or something. Or completely worthless, but fun nevertheless. Or a hindrance that must be avoided at all costs. And if enemies can be used to do your bidding. And do you really have to complete all primary objectives, just to mention a few. Other more seasoned runners can probably come up with better examples, though.

As for NOLF2 (my primary speedrunning project currently) my initial test time for the first mission (chapter 1 + 2) was 7 minutes. Then cut down to 4:15 during training. And it ended on 3:57 in the recorded run. The first chapter still has some room for improvement, but the second one doesn't leave much I think.

Raven75

2006-01-03 05:58:51 pm

It's-a me, Raven!

I'd love to help on the general-FPS-strategy department, but the FPS I'm trying to run contradicts about half of the basic "rules"... All I can say for certain is that melee attacks (usually) are your friend. FPS's these days let you kill the basic enemies in a single punch/stab/kick/slash/gore/skew/headbutt/etcetera.

RandomEngy

2006-01-03 06:29:41 pm

A Crab

There's the basic play it a lot, look for shortcuts and glitches, then practice.

One good thing would be to check what engine it's running on and see if there is any speed boosting trick present in the parent engine that is likely to work in the game. An example would be strafe jumping in Jedi Outcast which is based on the Quake 3 engine.

Also, as for practice it can help to have a solid multiplayer experience in the game. In multiplayer, speed is very important because faster targets are harder to hit and generally collect more weapons and powerups. Then there's the aiming and proper use of weapons. An expert deathmatch player is going to have a lot easier time running a game than someone who just started from scratch.

However I think the most powerful resource on running any game is the community. Talking with other people, sharing tricks and strategies can really cut down on the time for the game.

As for a cool monster-boosting trick, my favorite is the one that Spider-Waffle came up with that appears in my run. First you jam the door to the access room with the scientist. Then you pull the sample all the way out after starting the resonance cascade. Then you can avoid all the teleport triggers by going into the small access room. During the cascade, alien slaves spawn on the ceiling and fall down and teleport out as they get to the floor. Except one falls on the sample cart instead, never teleporting away. Then after drawing fire from the slave so the door-jamming scientist stays alive, run over to the center piece after the last teleport triggers. Then when the "Unforseen Consequences" map loads, the alien slave will be floating in mid-air, as if he's still standing on the cart. You can now jump from the center piece on top of his head and make a lightning boost up to the small window and skip 2 minutes.

There's the basic play it a lot, look for shortcuts and glitches, then practice.

One good thing would be to check what engine it's running on and see if there is any speed boosting trick present in the parent engine that is likely to work in the game.  An example would be strafe jumping in Jedi Outcast which is based on the Quake 3 engine.

Also, as for practice it can help to have a solid multiplayer experience in the game.  In multiplayer, speed is very important because faster targets are harder to hit and generally collect more weapons and powerups.  Then there's the aiming and proper use of weapons.  An expert deathmatch player is going to have a lot easier time running a game than someone who just started from scratch.

However I think the most powerful resource on running any game is the community.  Talking with other people, sharing tricks and strategies can really cut down on the time for the game.

As for a cool monster-boosting trick, my favorite is the one that Spider-Waffle came up with that appears in my run.  First you jam the door to the access room with the scientist.  Then you pull the sample all the way out after starting the resonance cascade.  Then you can avoid all the teleport triggers by going into the small access room.  During the cascade, alien slaves spawn on the ceiling and fall down and teleport out as they get to the floor.  Except one falls on the sample cart instead, never teleporting away.  Then after drawing fire from the slave so the door-jamming scientist stays alive, run over to the center piece after the last teleport triggers.  Then when the "Unforseen Consequences" map loads, the alien slave will be floating in mid-air, as if he's still standing on the cart.  You can now jump from the center piece on top of his head and make a lightning boost up to the small window and skip 2 minutes.

Psychochild

Edit history:

Psychochild: 2006-01-03 07:04:23 pm

2006-01-03 06:38:08 pm

Quote:

If a new game comes out which is attractive to speedrunners, what are the steps you go through before trying to create a run? Is it a case of simply playing loads, building up techniques for different sections, then stringing them together, or are there particular things that you'd look for?

I'm interested also in any good use of monster jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments from speedruns past that you can recall.

It's partially the first thing. You need to be very intimate with the game, have a strong understanding of the game mechanics, know the layout, enemy spawn locations, any necessary items or drops you'll need to keep going at a good pace, know any and all developer intended shortcuts if possible. Get a few for techniques as well, that sort of thing.

Then, you start looking for the fun stuff. Glitches and bugs that you can manipulate in the interest of speed. For example, the Half-Life folks have discovered a way to jump into the Xen portal near the end of the game without having to wait for two minutes for the portal to stabalize by jumping into it while avoiding the instant kill trigger. Abusing the game's physics is also popular (As you can clearly see at times in Half-Life 2, where Marshmallow will use the gravity gun and items to jump over barriers that aren't normally possible and in one extreme case, jumps a massive gap by launching a rollermine with his gravity gun, I think).

We also look for sequence breaks which as the phrase implies, the player breaks away from the natural flow or sequence of the game for the interest of speed by abusing the terrain, a certain glitch, or something of the sort. I'm pretty sure the "Surface Tension" stage of Half-Life where the player runs up into the skybox bypassing the massive canyon and a ton of other regions in the level is considered a sequence break. The player also entirely skips the "Power Up" stage and also "We got Hostiles" I believe. Not sure about that last one.

Someone feel free to correct my definition there.

Now, for good runs with lots of memorable moments while staying in the realm of PC games, I recommend the incredible Half-Life, Half-Life 2, and HL: Opposing Force for obvious examples of the things I mentioned above.

Of course, we also often find ourselves doing runs that don't offer much in terms of tricks, glitches, sequence breaks, or things of the sort but they still make for a great video. Examples of this includes Doom 3 and Doom 3: Ressurection of Evil.

[quote]
If a new game comes out which is attractive to speedrunners, what are the steps you go through before trying to create a run?  Is it a case of simply playing loads, building up techniques for different sections, then stringing them together, or are there particular things that you'd look for?
 
I'm interested also in any good use of monster jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments from speedruns past that you can recall.[/quote]

It's partially the first thing.  You need to be very intimate with the game, have a strong understanding of the game mechanics, know the layout, enemy spawn locations, any necessary items or drops you'll need to keep going at a good pace, know any and all developer intended shortcuts if possible.  Get a few for techniques as well, that sort of thing.

Then, you start looking for the fun stuff.  Glitches and bugs that you can manipulate in the interest of speed.  For example, the Half-Life folks have discovered a way to jump into the Xen portal near the end of the game without having to wait for two minutes for the portal to stabalize by jumping into it while avoiding the instant kill trigger.  Abusing the game's physics is also popular (As you can clearly see at times in Half-Life 2, where Marshmallow will use the gravity gun and items to jump over barriers that aren't normally possible and in one extreme case, jumps a massive gap by launching a rollermine with his gravity gun, I think).

We also look for sequence breaks which as the phrase implies, the player breaks away from the natural flow or sequence of the game for the interest of speed by abusing the terrain, a certain glitch, or something of the sort.  I'm pretty sure the "Surface Tension" stage of Half-Life where the player runs up into the skybox bypassing the massive canyon and a ton of other regions in the level is considered a sequence break.  The player also entirely skips the "Power Up" stage and also "We got Hostiles" I believe.  Not sure about that last one.

Someone feel free to correct my definition there.

Now, for good runs with lots of memorable moments while staying in the realm of PC games, I recommend the incredible Half-Life, Half-Life 2, and HL: Opposing Force for obvious examples of the things I mentioned above.

Of course, we also often find ourselves doing runs that don't offer much in terms of tricks, glitches, sequence breaks, or things of the sort but they still make for a great video.  Examples of this includes Doom 3 and Doom 3: Ressurection of Evil.

Tub

2006-01-03 07:27:16 pm

m00

Quote:

We also look for sequence breaks which as the phrase implies, the player breaks away from the natural flow or sequence of the game for the interest of speed by abusing the terrain, a certain glitch, or something of the sort. I'm pretty sure the "Surface Tension" stage of Half-Life where the player runs up into the skybox bypassing the massive canyon and a ton of other regions in the level is considered a sequence break to an extent.

IMHO that's just a shortcut.

A typical sequence break usually refers to a game where you can walk around freely, but have do something before you may pass certain barriers (and thus opening the game world step by step). Zelda and metroid-games are common games to be sequence-broken.

An example: you are supposed to get the jump boots in super metroid to reach Kraid, because the entrance to his lair is too high up. With a well-timed walljump you can enter his lair (and kill him) without the boots though, and if you do it, you broke the intended sequence.

With such open games comes a new task for speedrunners. After finding out what items have to be obtained / quests have to be solved and in what order they can be done, you still need to figure out what sequence is faster.
Should I kill kraid as early as possible to reap his reward, or should I wait until I became more powerful so I'll be able to kill him faster?
Should I spend time getting an optional item to speed up some fights, or is it faster to just skip the thing?

such choices are not trivial, and you'll quite often see improved runs that are merely faster because of route changes. IIRC the Zelda-folks still didn't come to a conclusion about the fastest route on The Legend of Zelda for NES - a game from 1987.

[quote]We also look for sequence breaks which as the phrase implies, the player breaks away from the natural flow or sequence of the game for the interest of speed by abusing the terrain, a certain glitch, or something of the sort.  I'm pretty sure the "Surface Tension" stage of Half-Life where the player runs up into the skybox bypassing the massive canyon and a ton of other regions in the level is considered a sequence break to an extent.[/quote]
IMHO that's just a shortcut.

A typical sequence break usually refers to a game where you can walk around freely, but have do something before you may pass certain barriers (and thus opening the game world step by step). Zelda and metroid-games are common games to be sequence-broken.

An example: you are supposed to get the jump boots in super metroid to reach Kraid, because the entrance to his lair is too high up. With a well-timed walljump you can enter his lair (and kill him) without the boots though, and if you do it, you broke the intended sequence.

With such open games comes a new task for speedrunners. After finding out what items have to be obtained / quests have to be solved and in what order they can be done, you still need to figure out what sequence is faster.
Should I kill kraid as early as possible to reap his reward, or should I wait until I became more powerful so I'll be able to kill him faster?
Should I spend time getting an optional item to speed up some fights, or is it faster to just skip the thing?

such choices are not trivial, and you'll quite often see improved runs that are merely faster because of route changes. IIRC the Zelda-folks still didn't come to a conclusion about the fastest route on The Legend of Zelda for NES - a game from 1987.

marshmallow

2006-01-03 07:50:55 pm

Jack of all Trades

Also look at the Doom 1 & 2 and Quake runs. Classic stuff.

VorpalEdge

2006-01-03 08:04:58 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote:

If a new game comes out which is attractive to speedrunners, what are the steps you go through before trying to create a run? Is it a case of simply playing loads, building up techniques for different sections, then stringing them together, or are there particular things that you'd look for?

I'm interested also in any good use of monster jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments from speedruns past that you can recall.

I haven't read any of the posts except to realize that this is the last one you made, so if I duplicate/contradict something already in this thread, I really don't care.

The first thing I do when beginning to speedrun 'normal' games (where 'normal' is 'not turn-based stuff', basically, stuff that requires actual reflexes and isn't just menu-skimming/positioning/thinking) is play through them for a while. Get used to the physics engine and so on. This mainly applies for action/adventure games (and FPSs I suppose, although I've never even considered running one except for Jet Force Gemini). Then you start building your route. What you need to do to normally finish the game, and so on.

Then you start trying to break the game. Try to skip stuff. Abuse bugs. Bludgeon the physics engine into submission. Skip cutscenes by avoiding triggers - either through not doing the thing that triggers the cutscene in the first place, or escaping it through a glitchy collision boundary or some such. Develop shortcuts. Time lots of stuff. Try to skip entire items (ever watched a speedrun of a Metroid game?). Jump to places you weren't supposed to reach. If you can't reach them by jumping, try damage boosting. If you can't do that, try doing something - anything - that pushes you back in midair. And so on.

Basically, break the game in as many ways as you can think of, and put the pieces back together in the end into a finished route.

RTSs are entirely different.

Turn-based games - Fire Emblem and Advance Wars, for instance - are usually very solid pieces of programming; there it's normally a matter of not being a piece of crap at the game and then just plugging away until randomness works your way. Charge for the endpoint of a level as fast as you can and adapt different strategies to overcome what you meet in your way.

Real-time games are such that you have to be a freaking demigod at the game or else someone who's better than you will demolish each and every one of your times eventually, no matter how much thought and planning you put into them. They can do stuff with micro that you can't, instead of taking the long way around to the back of the base, they dance right in. You can't compete unless you're the absolute best of the best, so I personally wouldn't even bother. Honestly, not to knock the work of the Starcraft runners, but... yeah. Marsh already got many/most his times obsoleted by someone, it'll be a vicious cycle with someone more skilled taking each level successfully and so on. :/

If you can overcome that, there's lots of stuff you can abuse. Trigger points can easily be abused depending on which game you're running. For instance, level 3 in Homeworld: Cataclysm, there's a bunch of ships guarding a ship trapped in a sphere of mines. They're all set to one big group. If you move something within their trigger point, they attack it until it dies. But if you move a single recon in, and then run it away around the corners of the map, they'll follow it and never look back, not even when you're getting rid of the mines and saving the ship inside.

[quote]If a new game comes out which is attractive to speedrunners, what are the steps you go through before trying to create a run?  Is it a case of simply playing loads, building up techniques for different sections, then stringing them together, or are there particular things that you'd look for?

I'm interested also in any good use of monster jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments from speedruns past that you can recall.[/quote]

I haven't read any of the posts except to realize that this is the last one you made, so if I duplicate/contradict something already in this thread, I really don't care.

The first thing I do when beginning to speedrun 'normal' games (where 'normal' is 'not turn-based stuff', basically, stuff that requires actual reflexes and isn't just menu-skimming/positioning/thinking) is play through them for a while.  Get used to the physics engine and so on.  This mainly applies for action/adventure games (and FPSs I suppose, although I've never even considered running one except for Jet Force Gemini).  Then you start building your route.  What you need to do to normally finish the game, and so on.

Then you start trying to break the game.  Try to skip stuff. Abuse bugs.  Bludgeon the physics engine into submission.  Skip cutscenes by avoiding triggers - either through not doing the thing that triggers the cutscene in the first place, or escaping it through a glitchy collision boundary or some such.  Develop shortcuts.  Time lots of stuff.  Try to skip entire items (ever watched a speedrun of a Metroid game?).  Jump to places you weren't supposed to reach.  If you can't reach them by jumping, try damage boosting.  If you can't do that, try doing something - anything - that pushes you back in midair.  And so on.

Basically, break the game in as many ways as you can think of, and put the pieces back together in the end into a finished route.

RTSs are entirely different.

Turn-based games - Fire Emblem and Advance Wars, for instance - are usually very solid pieces of programming; there it's normally a matter of not being a piece of crap at the game and then just plugging away until randomness works your way.  Charge for the endpoint of a level as fast as you can and adapt different strategies to overcome what you meet in your way.

Real-time games are such that you have to be a freaking demigod at the game or else someone who's better than you will demolish each and every one of your times eventually, no matter how much thought and planning you put into them.  They can do stuff with micro that you can't, instead of taking the long way around to the back of the base, they dance right in.  You can't compete unless you're the absolute best of the best, so I personally wouldn't even bother.  Honestly, not to knock the work of the Starcraft runners, but... yeah.  Marsh already got many/most his times obsoleted by someone, it'll be a vicious cycle with someone more skilled taking each level successfully and so on. :/

If you can overcome that, there's lots of stuff you can abuse.  Trigger points can easily be abused depending on which game you're running.  For instance, level 3 in Homeworld: Cataclysm, there's a bunch of ships guarding a ship trapped in a sphere of mines.  They're all set to one big group.  If you move something within their trigger point, they attack it until it dies.  But if you move a single recon in, and then run it away around the corners of the map, they'll follow it and never look back, not even when you're getting rid of the mines and saving the ship inside.

ballofsnow

Edit history:

ballofsnow: 2006-01-03 08:32:47 pm

2006-01-03 08:31:03 pm

For RTS games you can also study the enemy A.I., finding things it tends to do, and things it always does. Using the "black sheep wall" cheat helps when practicing the level since it allows you to see what the enemy is doing. Check out Brood War Protoss 7. Flagitious discovered that the enemy *always* transports a Reaver from the east to the west with a Shuttle, and so we exploit this leading to a much shorter time.

ProtoMonkey

2006-01-06 06:23:54 pm

You should watch Quake Done Quick with a Vengeance. Quite simply the most incredible speed run ever produced.

ProtoMonkey

2006-01-06 06:28:55 pm

>> I'm interested also in any good use of monster
>> jumps/boosts, or any particularly amazing moments
>> from speedruns past that you can recall.

QDQWav e1m3. This run is legendary.

Some of the Metroid games are also amazing for both gameplay and route planning. For more mainstream stuff, there is a run on here of Super Mario World getting all exits in a blistering time, and only taking one hit. One hit!!!

Ekarderif

Edit history:

Ekarderif: 2006-01-06 07:27:15 pm

2006-01-06 07:26:57 pm

Your almighty lordship

I recall at least two purposeful hits (FoI 2 and Tubular). I bet he gets hit a lot more... (don't really keep track of mistakes)

Edit: I seem to get the worst page breaks ever.

Chomp

2006-01-06 08:48:35 pm

woot

The first Half-Life runs (segmented/nonsegmented) always seem to amaze me. They're the only runs I have stored on my HD that I actually go back and watch every now and then. So much, that I got involved with the HL2DQ project (Half-Life 2: Done Quick). It's so fun. I've found myself bored by playing through games normally now and always on the lookout for a shortcut. I don't even DO speed runs, but it's just a habit now I guess.

acxy500

2006-01-07 08:34:58 pm

Yeah.. The HL runs are awesome