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NoiseCrash
2009-04-27 07:09:20 pm
@_@
Floogal's right imo.

In a run like this you really have three different things you need to achieve. Beating the game, collecting all the "100% stuff" quickly and fluidly, then optimizing the battles. The proper approach to this is first working out the best way to collect everything you need to collect while going through the game. Basically you write down what you have to do from beginning to end, and if a forced battle comes up just jot down "fight ______" in your notes. This is the main route of the run, so it has to be done first.

Once you've worked all of that out and know exactly where you're going to be and when, then you can start worrying about the battles. If you absolutely need an FP item or something you can then look back in your route and say "Hmm... well, this Maple Syrup is on the way before the battle" and can work it into your path. If you try to work everything out at the same time you'll just end up getting more confused and that increases the potential for errors in your route that you'll have to find and fix later. At least that's the way I see it.
Floogal
2009-04-27 11:39:23 pm
Okay, I've gone through and tried to reorganise the non-trivial stuff.  These lists ignore coin-collecting, Rowf, Chuck Quizmo, and Rip Cheato.

Toad Town:
NW:
- Super Block: island pipe
- star piece panel across from island
- star piece panel by 3 girls
- chain letter 7 (girl by dojo/star piece panel)
- letter delivery to Russ T. (no-brainer pickup; Jade Jungle)
- return dictionary to Russ T.
- Luigi's Autograph (Koopa Koot chapter 2)
NE:
- trade Calculator for I Spy badge
- read signboard (Koopa Koot chater 4)
- return mailbag to Post Office
E:
- Tayce T. for Koopa Koot's items:
- Koopa Tea (chapter 2)
- Tasty Tonic (chapter 3)
- Life Shroom (chapter 4)
- Nutty Cake (chapter 4)
- Koopasta (chapter 5)
- star piece panel by guard
W:
- talk to poet, leave area
- talk again for lyrics
- give melody for Attack FX D badge
- chain letter 4 (Fishmael)
S:
- chain letter 10 (kids by train)
- chain letter 12 (kids by train)
- star piece panel by kids

Toad Town Tunnels:
- Super Block & star piece: lift riding (need Super Hammer)
- Super Block: by lifts (need Ultra Hammer)
- Super Block: invisible bridge (need Super Boots, Ultra better)
- Power Smash badge (need Super Hammer)
- Shrink Stomp badge (anytime)

Jr. Troopa's Playground:
- 2 star pieces: panel & ledge

Goomba Village:
- star piece - panel
- chain letter 1 (Goompapa)
- chain letter 14 (Goompapa)
- letter delivery to Goompa (pickup in Dry Dry Desert after Kolordo's camp gone)
- Tape from Goompa (chapter 2 Koopa Koot)

Goomba Road:
- panel star piece by Goomba Fortress

Pleasant Path:
- two panels near crossroad

Koopa Village:
- chain letter 3 (Koover -- near entrance)
- chain letter 5 (Koover -- near entrance)
- letter delivery to Toad House (no-brainer pickup in Dry Dry Desert)
- star piece panel by Bob-ombs

Mt. Rugged:
- star piece on "drop ledge"
- star piece detour (circle of coins)
- star piece panel at end of slide

Dry Dry Desert:
- Oasis Super Block
- Attack FX C badge
- Runaway Pay badge
- Spin Attack badge
- letter pickup (Kolorado Camp gone)
- letter delivery (Nomadimouse) -- picked up in Dry Dry Outpost (no-brainer)
- Lime for Koopa Koot (Chapter 6)
- star piece panel (near stone cactus, on main path)

Dry Dry Outpost:
- trade lyrics for melody
- star piece panel
- chain letter 6 (near Toad House)
- chain letter 8 (in shop)
- get Crystal Ball from Merlee (Koopa Koot chapter 3)

Boo's Mansion:
- Star Piece in room where you win record
- chain letter 9 (in front room)
- letter deliver to shopkeeper (no-brainer pickup)
- photo from boo in front room (Koopa Koot chapter 5)

Gusty Gulch:
- get package (Koopa Koot chapter 7)

Shy Guy's Toybox:
- fight/bribe Anti Guy for Power Plus badge
- Cake Mix for Koopa Koot's Kooky Cookie (chapter 6)
- Calculator for Rowf

Yoshi Village:
- chief standing on panel while collecting Jade Raven
- chain letter 11 (yoshi by shop)
- Coconut for Koopa Koot (chapter 7)

Starborn Valley:
- chain letter 13

Shooting Star Summit:
- Chain Letter 2 (toad by Peach's Castle's foundation)
- Murluvlee first visit (Koopa Koot chapter 3)
- trade Crystal Ball for Murluvlee's autograph (Koopa Koot chapter 3)
- two star piece panels on way to Murluvlee's


Koopa Bros Fortress
Dry Dry Ruins
Forever Forest
Tubba Blubba's Mansion
Lavalava Beach
Jade Jungle
Lavalava Volcano
Flower Fields
Shiver City
Shiver Snowfield
Shiver Mountain
Crystal Palace
Bowser's Castle
Peach's Castle


As you can see, we can't help but backtrack to some places at least twice (often due to the chain letter).  Others, such as Shy Guy's Toybox, Yoshi Village, and Starborn Valley, should hopefully never need to be visited more than they are in an any% run, at least with proper planning (such as almost finishing the chain letter before heading off to chapter 7).
LadyKrile
2009-05-04 07:26:09 pm
What about these?

Shy Guy's Toy Box:
Dictionary for Russ T.'s Star Piece

Shiver City:
Deliver letter to mayor (from Shiver Snowfield, deliver when getting bucket)
Floogal
2009-05-06 05:12:48 pm
Those two things are among the many I lumped into the "no-brainer" category, as it seems obvious (to me) that the best time to deal with them are when you pass by them on the forced any% route:

- The best time to collect Russ T.'s dictionary (and the star piece underneath it) is obviously when you go past the green station in Chapter 4 -- we won't be skipping that area this time.

- You pass by the Shiver City's mayor's letter two times before you need to visit him to get the Bucket.  If we're using the same battling strategy as the any%, then we'll already have Parakarry out, ready to immediately give him the letter.
pyromaniac
2009-05-27 08:09:45 pm
hey hey hey!!
sorry i haven't been on this. i will get this finished eventually! who knows when, but it will be!! probably during the cold seasons  is when i'm most working on it because basketball doesn't take up too much time.  i was going to start working on it throughout the summer, but i have football summer conditioning and shit like that, but i will try to get as much done as possible. hopefully the work will pay off, and thanks everyone for all of the help you have put into this  Grin
pyromaniac
2009-07-24 02:50:45 pm
hey hey hey!!
alright, this time i'm serious. i'm going to start working on this again. i'm almost done planning shy guy's toy box but having trouble with actually beating the general cause i don't have anything. i need to get passed him anyway just to plan more.
jdaster64
2010-01-06 02:47:31 pm
Quote from Floogal:
...I really hope that there's a hidden secret recipe, like a Red Berry and a Stone Cap makes a Jelly Ultra.  Hey, we can hope?


I realize this topic is fairly old, but I'm somewhat intrigued by this.  Does anyone have any idea if this could be determined by some method other than actually trying out ~4000 combinations (via actual gameplay, or tedious hex editing)?
NoiseCrash
2010-01-06 03:15:51 pm
@_@
Quote from jdaster64:
Quote from Floogal:
...I really hope that there's a hidden secret recipe, like a Red Berry and a Stone Cap makes a Jelly Ultra.  Hey, we can hope?


I realize this topic is fairly old, but I'm somewhat intrigued by this.  Does anyone have any idea if this could be determined by some method other than actually trying out ~4000 combinations (via actual gameplay, or tedious hex editing)?


Honestly, in all of the years that this game has been out and all the people who've picked apart the game for secrets... somebody probably would've found something that useful a long time ago if it existed.
jdaster64
2010-01-07 01:17:54 pm
Quote from pyromaniac:
i found a way to get chuck quizmo to show up

i will have to do it in segments so people can skip it because it took about an hour and a half to see him 30 times.  ill do it once after chapter 2 (that's when i go in the sewers) and once at the end of game in the sewers. 


Sorry, I had to point this out: Chuck Quizmo will appear in the same town twice in a row, but only if you visit another town first.  The best strategy I've ever figured out is this:

1) Go to Goomba Village via the pipe. 
2) If he's not in the one spot he appears in, go back and forth between the screen he appears in and the one to the left (where Mario lands at the start of the game), until he does appear. 
3) After collecting the Star Piece, go to Koopa Village and check the spot nearest to the pipe. 
4) If he's not there, go back to Goomba Village, and repeat the whole process until you have 64 Star Pieces, or whatever your target is. 

I collected the last 30 Star Pieces from him in roughly 22 minutes, including several mistakes.
Raiker Z
2010-05-19 11:35:56 pm
Im still working on this (for my 100% Speed run) But i believe there is a chance that you can actually get him to appear from just starting the game, so just keep resetting the game untill he appears, in which case you can go to Koopa Village (During Koopa Koot stuff, or just after) save there and keep resetting untill you see him, this will give roughly 1 min segments, and roughly 60 segments (counting that chapters 1-7 you have seen at least 4), or you can luck manipulate *if your willing to* to get it 3 per segment (one at save block, one on screen to the right, one at save block, then save) it would cut down on segments, but thats a 1 in 2000 chance i believe (counting all his locations and the random of him actually going there all 3 chances) but it is possible. Im looking into this still, on the cartridge I havent had this happen, but on the Wii version  when i was testing out a few things for run preps, I actually had him appear in Koopa Village when i started from a save! If this isnt a glitch that the virtual console has then this will make a 100% faster.
WingedKitsune
2010-05-20 02:22:56 am
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
I'm glad you're still working on this. :3

There is even talk of a 100% TAS.  Don't know if it'll actually happen, but it'd be nice to have both this one and a TAS.
Raiker Z
2010-05-20 04:02:08 pm
I don't think there is a TAS for this game, unless have they found somthing that fixed the Project 64 Paper Mario problems? I know the version I last saw still had issues *especially Toad Town*
WingedKitsune
2010-05-20 04:22:37 pm
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
There aren't any TASes yet, but there is talk of any% and 100% TASes currently.

That's what I said earlier.
Raiker Z
2010-05-20 07:32:52 pm
Ahh ok ^.^ sorry for the misunderstanding Tongue
WingedKitsune
2010-05-21 03:03:51 am
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Heh, it's fine.  For some reason people seem to misunderstand me a lot. O.o
FionordeQuester
2010-05-21 12:15:58 pm
Same thing happens to me.
neskamikaze
2010-05-21 03:13:28 pm
If you can get Chuck Quizmo to appear right out of a save, couldn't you get one of them done every time that a segment begins at that save, not just when you are going specifically for Chuck Quizmo?
agumike
2010-05-22 12:34:42 am
There is a current TAS in progress of this game on nico, but it isn't very far yet. Only beat Jr. Troopa the first time.

But a definite problem for any 100% run is coins for the Badges, and makeing sure you don't miss any star pieces along the route. Whacka Bumps get the best sell at Shroom Grocery, so that is.......64x8, 512 coins? Of course, you can make them into Deluxe Feasts, which sell 70 a piece at Shiver Shop, but the amount of time added to that  isn't worth it, i'd think. Of course, it increases teh cost of the Strange Leaf by 3. xD

The next best sells would be to use Mushrooms or Life Shrooms with Cake Mix (30 and 50 accordingly) but that is how much more farming for cake mix
Raiker Z
2010-05-22 06:17:25 pm
The biggest challenge is more or less side star pieces tbh, the letters are driving me mad (mainly the chain letter without going out of the way by a mile) Starborn valley's delivery needs to be made there, or else your wasting a good 5 min + along with the chance that you get in an unnecessary fight :\ but the fact you have to backtrack in the first place is annoying, I'm looking into after chapter 5 (ultra hammer/earliest time to get the melod for attack FX D *can someone confirm?*) because then all the backtracking can result in some star pieces and maybe a few koopa koot favors (pre planned for optimum speed, of course) and also the sewers, but also after chapter 4 (which means no ultra hammer) may wind up better for lowering hp (I believe there are 1 - 2 blooper battles so you can drop your hp in those if possible) and saves you a trip back to yoshi island (red yoshi kid)

Coins are most likely safest for gambling although Im testing how many you collect through shiver city (for the rip cheato/chet rippo *idk off the top of my head the name* star pieces/badge) if you dont get enough, then you'll need to sleep at the toad house for the ultra shroom (which you may have to anyway for gambling money) Using whacka's bumps is to slow, filling an invy takes forever, and he has limited amounts, so its not good for the thousands of gp you need in the run.

And nes, while that is possible, its just so rare, and not worth the real life time, I think the optimal possibility is like 16-20 for having him show up, but if you make a mistake in any other part of the segment then you have to luck manipulate it again for the same possibility, and if you mean the segments that you actually save in a spot he appears, the route im taking, you get 2 or 3 of those, but you can manipulate that to get a possibility of like 10 appearaances at that, but again the problem with that is any mistake and you have to restart the manipulation, and pass the part you failed on, thats to long, either way your going to need Chuck Quizmo segments, so manipulating it for a few less wont change that most of your segments will be to him anyway.
agumike
2010-05-22 07:34:22 pm
I definitely know that you can have teh chain letter ready before getting to Starborn Valley, but I can't say i ever looked at the time efficiency of any of these methods.

And its more like Whacka Bumps are just there for getting a quick 64 coins when you pass through there, which is only twice, right?
Raiker Z
2010-05-22 07:53:31 pm
I believe its four *before letters, after letters, after recieving parakarry, leaving desert*
NoiseCrash
2010-05-22 08:37:14 pm
@_@
You can hit Whacka eight times before he dies. There's no specific time to do so, you can hit him all eight times the first time you see him if you want.

Don't forget it might be useful to go back and read what's been discussed so far, there've been some great strategy posts, especially this one.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=4647.msg273218#msg273218

It gives lists of which collectibles are on the way and which ones need to be planned for. It might be a good idea for coin-collecting to collect all the Jammin' Jellys and Ultra Shrooms. You can combine a Jelly with a Super Shroom to get a Jelly Super and the Ultra Shroom with a Maple Syrup to get a Maple Ultra. If you sell all seven of these you can possibly make you can come away with 700 coins. Combine that with the 512 coins from selling Whacka's Bumps, and you've already made a good dent.

As far as optimizing for Star Pieces, Badges, etc. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. To be honest I haven't really dealt with this game much at all in a couple of years. It might be beneficial to take each category one at a time. Look at each one and try to figure out the optimal path just for whatever one you're working on. As you get more and more finished, you can start collaborating between each of them. If you see you're backtracking to the same place twice at two different times, then just mark out the first one and save yourself a trip. This may prove to be time-consuming and a lot of work but to be honest planning something this big is going to require it. All I'm saying is there has to be some form of organization or else you'll end up forgetting something in your plan, or just as likely getting overwhelmed.
agumike
2010-05-22 11:31:36 pm
Yeah, Jelly recipies and Ultra recipies are awesome money, and I was just talking about the most efficient number of times to see Whacka, without having to go back and forth between screens just for him.
Raiker Z
2010-05-23 05:37:43 pm
The list is nice, but it lists what should already be thought of in early planning, Its helpful and suggests alot though, and I'll admit gold farming from the desert sounds good, I planned 20-40 gp on the run through the desert (also badges, letters, super block and koopa koot stuff like the tasty tonic and a lime)  and you can plan around koopa koot to get money money early (ideally you only want one trip there, but thats impossible, thanks koopa koot) Whacka just isnt worth the time/space to get, my list was the 4 convienient times you could get it, but due to space limitation (for koopa koot stuff *tasty tonic, lime, 2x dusty hammer, dried shroom, and dried pasta* (dried pasta is needed anyway for koopasta so its better to get it earlier then chapter 4)) you would need to check them, just to sell right afterwards for a small amount of money overall... And yes, I'm almost set for a slow run through the game (short of Chuck Quizmo, already know he's gonna have segments and I know all of his answers, and the spots where they will always be) to test my basic plan for GP/Star Points/Organization of items and visiting times. If all goes well ill have a few changes, but it will show where my flaws are Cheesy (again biggest flaw is gp, so suggestions on that are welcome, except for the basic whacka bumps, collect jammin jellies/ultra shrooms, and games rooms) also have to factor in those few gp koopa koot gives lol >.>
WingedKitsune
2010-05-26 06:19:19 am
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
I really hope this gets finished.  I've always wanted to see this done at 100%.

I actually didn't like this game when I first played it.  But it grew on me and now it's one of my favorite games.  So is the second game. xD

But the third game is CRAP!