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My feelings on The Demon Rush
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Arthur "Artas1984" Lozovskis's Trauma difficulty IL runs

Verifier Responses

I've watched through them all (sorry it took so long, was away at Katsucon for the weekend :-P ),  and overall I'd say the runs are fine.  As mentioned in the topic, the City on Water stage isn't available on the Trauma difficulty, so I didn't consider it part of the run.  Second,  the run was done without Tarot cards, which is kind of like imposing a random handicap on the runner.  This isn't a problem, though it might mean that it will require more categories for the game in the future, if other people get better times while using the tarot cards.  And I think this was brought up in the topic, but a few of the stages had a couple instances of video lag, and the Enclave stage has a large video glitch sticking out of the boss, so that one might need re-run depending on how you guys treat stuff like that.  Aside from these, they seemed fast and legitimate, with some impressive shortcuts in areas.  If you want, I can give some more detailed pros and cons for the individual stages.

Here are my detailed notes on the runs:

Asylum - Pretty good, not much more can be done considering all enemies need to be killed
Atrium - Efficient killing of most enemies just about as they spawned, good shortcut through the bars
Babel - Good herding of enemies early while collecting ammo, close call in the crushing ceiling room, nice sequence break into the window near the end
Base - Nice sequence break early on, pretty quick tank killing, seems tougher to finiish off the hordes of zombies as fast as the tanks, very nice jump off of the airplane and into the hanger near the end, would it have been better to stay up on the second floor when finishing off the enemies at the end?
Bridge - crazy jumping after going down the cables, how did that work? :-P I'm assuming it was an invisible ceiling, nice running arcoss the cable at the end too, sure were alot of those wierd short four legged things at the end!
Castle - Good jumping skipped most of the stage
Catacombs - Lots of downtime killing all enemies in the large room before the end, not sure if much can be done about it, though
Cathedral - Failed on using a body for a shortcut once, lost just a few seconds, some hunting to finish off all of the enemies in the next area
Cemetary - Very efficient on killing things as they spawn, Nice shortcut at the end
Enclave - Strange video glitch occuring, fast kill otherwise
Factory - noticed Some video lag, longest stage by a long shot, those commandos just seem to take forever to kill :-P, nice trick on the ladder at the end, unfortunate that there are no larger sequence breaks
Forest - good shortcut to the second half of the stage, those witches are a pain to kill!
Opera - that was quite a fall! Definitely shortened this stage up a good amount
Palace - Fantastic barrel boost near the end, nearly killed by fireworks
Prison - Wow, surprised that there aren't shortcuts like this in any other stages!
Ruins - Not much to say, quick efficient kill
Station - So many side rooms to clear! Little close on the health at the end, good thing the enemies had to funnel around that corner Wink
Swamp - Another very fast boss kill
Tower - First form went down so fast! Nice job minimizing fall damage, Also, was that the expansion gun that was equipped at the start?
Town - I stand corrected on my prison statement :-P

Right, here's my Painkiller verification. Sorry it took so long - stuff has been going on and needed sorting out.

Asylum: Ran out of freezy-juice at the end, but that cost hardly any time at all as did jumping into the doorframe.

Base: That one soldier guy REALLY doesn't wanna die, but at least he doesn't slow the runner down in any way. SOVJET UFO!!

Bridge: Ran out of rokkit-juice and almost ran out of shotgun-juice as well - Almost flawless ammo management!

Castle: Some pretty nasty interlacing here - I hope that's just the verifier copy... Other than that: Speedy fast of the quick variety.

Cathedral: I once managed to get to the upper floor by getting hit by a rock from the sub-boss - Probably wouldn't speed anything up as you still have to kill everything that moves to get the doors to open...

Enclave: The Necrogiant has a bad tumor on his shoulder, but that's purely cosmetic and not as deadly as the runner.

Factory: There's that interlacing again...

Forrest: Woosh! And more interlacing

Palace: ...and that is why you shouldn't play with fireworks!

Station: Run out of rokkit-juice again - looks like the runner lost a few seconds there trying to improvise, but overall that's nothing major

Swamp: "Killed the Swamp Thing in less than 4:00" - You bet!

Town: Wait, what?

Pretty solid runs! Butchered some of the levels in creative and fast ways. There's almost no execution errors, no cheating that I could detect and the videoquality/gfxglitch is no reason to reject any of this IMHO.
Solid accept!

Now I wanna see BOOH!

Finally checked all the stuff...

As has already been pointed out, 4 levels are interlaced (Castle, Factory, Forest, and Town), so that should be fixed. Babel also had a bit of sound hiccups.

No cheating detected, although I wonder what "Access to all levels granted" in the beginning of the Babel run is exactly. It's not a cheat (I checked GameFAQ's), so I'm not sure what it is exactly but it probably does as it says, unlocking all levels, so no biggie then (Couldn't find anything fishy either).
EDIT: After some more checking it seems this is a cheat from the PowerMad mod. It's just to unlock the levels so I guess it's no problem.

The gameplay in the runs is very good, although there are some faster times currently ( http://personal.inet.fi/cool/allaboutpainkiller/speedrun.html ), but since the gameplay is up to par I'd say accept. They can always later on be improved.

In the list of videos to download there was also City on Water, which has been done on Nightmare since it can't be done on Trauma. But that actually makes me wonder if the levels from Chapter 5 should be done on Nightmare and added to the table. They're still part of the game and so I think they should be included in the table.


Mike here is my comments on the set of runs for Painkiller.
First I owe you an apologize. It took me much more time to analyse this set of runs than the Left4Dead one and by the time I had it done, life kicked my ass a bit. I was out of any internet connection for something like a month. Didn't play any online game, didn't connect with any community. So sorry for the delay and I must say it was totally out of my hands. I am now connecting from work to post this and I may get an internet connection later.
Let's get back on the subject:

Painkiller speedrunning was started by SDA member Risto Jouslahti who produced a full set of runs. I don't know if it was because of the use of a mod for the last chapter or the average video quality (seemed good enough to me ^^) but the set never made it to SDA. Artas took these times as reference for his runs and has beaten every last one of them here.

Some notes about the rules chosen by the runner:
- It should be noted that artas didn't include the levels that weren't done on trauma. The last campaign for an obscure reason can only be played on nightmare which is an easier mode. Since they can be played on nightmare I suggest that the table is completely filled with these.
- The runner deliberately decided to not make use of any tarot card (powerups given at start of a level). This is a custom rule as tarot cards can help achieve faster times. But PK running has historically decided to ignore these (mostly for the sake of difficulty increase at the start I guess) so it seems fine to continue like this.
- Another custom rule is occasionnally allowing use of weapons that are not to be found until later levels. The game allows the player to replay any level using every weapon he has collected on a given profile so it is not cheating at all but strange enough to be noted.
Painkiller is a game with a lot of different options for runners and I'm pretty sure new categories may appear later if some interest bring player to run it more. I would have said all weapons and all tarots should be bound together but I don't believe this is enough of a concern to reject runs of high quality for a game that deserve a place on SDA.
I spotted a cheat unlocking all levels at some point but nothing is altering the standard gameplay at any time.
There are a couple of lags in some runs. Nothing too important but worth noting. PK engine is demanding a bit too much for the result.

Some runs aren't the current best times. It doesn't go against SDA rules which implies that SDA hosts runs and not records. All runs produced by artas are of great gameplay quality and up to SDA standards in that sense. I'll focus comments on runs where the time difference with the best run is the most important.

Chapter I
C1L3 - Catacombs
Great hoping sequences in the caves. The last battle before the boss is  slow due to single ennemies leftovers. It is actually faster than RJ's first performance there but a new run proves that close to 20s can be saved here. No problem accepting it.

Chapter II
C2L4 - Snowy Bridge
Another awesome run with very few mistakes which tells a lot about the quality of the best existing run since artas is down 22s. Samourais soldiers can be avoided at 2:09 which explain a part of the time lost. Accept.

Chapter III
C3L1 - Train Station
It looks strange to see him make use of the Rocket Launcher just before picking it up. The run in itself is solid and yet the difference with the best run is over a minute (1:02) worth of better strategy, spamming spawn points and all. I wouldn't mind seeing this run accepted as it's still a solid run though runner is capable of pulling it better.
C3L3 - Military Base
There is a huge skip missing for this run but if I remember well, artas or risto said that the trick to make it is very hard to pull. Couples of mistakes here and there but artas is still very efficient to run the level. Two minutes of differences is alot, if it wasn't for the existing run showing the trick this would be easy to accept. Accepting this run depends on SDA tolerance in this case.

Chapter IV
C4L2 - Palace
A new shortcut has been brought up I believe after artas produced his run, allowing quite a nice skip. The time difference in the end is still relatively low (27s). Depends if the runner wants to give it a shot, no shame accepting it really.

All these runs are missing:

Chapter V
C5L2 - Docks
C5L3 - Old Monastery
C5L4 - Hell

I don't want to be too picky since this game deserves a place on SDA but...
First I can't accept that the game isn't presented in full. The last levels can't be played on trauma (hardest mode) but can be on nightmare. Mod unlocking the levels in trauma wouldn't be allowed for SDA so providing a set of nightmare runs for the last campaign is required. The most important ennemy is time and an easier difficulty should just mean more aggressiveness and time saved to compensate. City on Water run was included so why not the others?
There are runs that look pretty far from the current best runs. Artas stopped trying when he had RJ's times beat but depending on his will I would suggest to either give some a second shot or submit the set of runs in partnership with other runners (the later would be best since I'm pretty sure other runners will want to submit their runs to SDA soon after). This point is not as important given the good gameplay quality.
The run should be put on hold until the first point is sorted out. We are very very close to finally see this game hosted on SDA so I hope things will be corrected. I think only C5L4 Hell hasn't seen a new run since RJ's first set of runs.

Decision Accept, but maybe the Chapter 5 runs should be completed first?

Reason: Good runs with creative methods, but Chapter 5 can't be done on Trauma difficulty.  Either chapter 5 shouldn't be included for a Trauma table, or Chapter 5 should be done on Nightmare difficulty and be added to the table.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-28 04:34:42 am
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-28 04:33:17 am
I don't see any reason to require the Chapter 5 runs to be done on Nightmare for part of a run on Trauma. This is a complete run of the game on Trauma difficulty. If I remember right, there are also one or two levels that are only included in Trauma, and several levels that aren't included on Daydream or Insomnia. If this run had been on Daydream, would we require the half dozen or so levels not included in Daydream mode to be run on higher difficulties and submitted alongside? IMO it would be much uglier on the game page to have a full run of Trauma alongside an incomplete run of Nightmare, compared to just having a full run of Trauma.

That said, many viewers will never have played the game on Trauma and won't know that Chapter 5 isn't included on that difficulty, so a note should be placed on the game page so that people don't think it's an incomplete run.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Okay, that makes sense.
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2011-04-03 01:20:35 pm
Artas1984: 2011-04-03 01:09:11 pm
Artas1984: 2011-04-03 01:08:24 pm
Artas1984: 2011-04-03 01:06:54 pm
Artas1984: 2011-04-03 12:59:42 pm
O finally! Thank you for getting this up already! And thank you for the feedback! And i will explain what was asked.

Many of the level times, as said, have been improved - they have been improved after i presented my run on the 7th of February, 2011. So, understand where i am getting?

I did use a program called powermad, to enable the needed console command "pkalllevels". That is definitely not cheating, since this is an individual level run.

I have to apology for the bad video quality in levels Factory, Forrest, Town, Castle - what you call "interlaced". Explaining why: in these levels, in order to obtain over 100 FPS while recording, i needed to lower my video resolution to 640X480, instead of 800X600, otherwise, i would not execute shortcuts, those require over 100 FPS. So having made runs in 640X480 raw, i still had to compress them to 800X600 - that is why video quality suffered.

The sound glitch in Babel is a common bug, and is caused by the game itself, and not by fraps or powermad. So there is nothing that can be done to remove it.

The Necrogiant graphical glitch is caused by the incorrect gfx rendering - i have noticed this many times with different video cards, different drivers. It is random, and there is no way any person should redo his run, just because of some glitch.

Would it be more simple to finish the monsters in the end of the Military Base being on the second floor? There is a thing that when you are on the second floor, you can not use your weapons as efficiently as in a straight fight and there is a chance that some of the monsters will go different ways than the majority, due to colliding pathways - did not want to risk that.

As was guessed, there are invisible walls, those were used as shortcuts, like in the levels Bridge and Town.

Catacombs long killing - yes, the long killing is due to the fact, that once monsters are spawned, they go different ways and you never know where to expect them. For every repeated speedrun, it always get's random. Catacombs is the worst level to speedrun.

Snowy Bridge time improve: as was stated, the samurai soldiers could have been ignored, but obviously one verifier has not played pk enough: the gate in the end of the air tunnel typically does not open - i started killing the samurais knowing that the gates will not open, but suddenly the gates did open - it happens rarely. Now in Risto's new run, the samurai soldiers were skipped immediately, because he expected that the bug would happen, that opens the door - he got simply lucky, and of course he used some different tactics overall.

Cathedral - yes i missed the very first painkiller-jump, executed the second one, but generally it's only a cosmetic penalty. And unlike in Catacombs, there is no random monster spawning and hunting - you always go to the left wing first, and then to right wing, and wait until the last 4 monks spawn - that is how it went. Not sure what the verifier meant with hunting...

Station - that was my worst level of course, as i almost died and panicked in the end, but like all speedruns do have, my one also has it's worst level..

Base - as was noted, there is a new shortcut, that skips the whole silo area, and i knew it, but still did not use it, because that shortcut needs over 250 FPS to execute it - impossible with fraps.

Palace - same here, there is a new shortcut hacking through the wall - but this shortcut is "unstable" and depends on pure luck. There is absolutelly no skill involded going through the wall as it is just a forced glitch due to low polygons and high FPS - i hate that shortcut and think is BS personally.

Now, chapter 5 - don't have to explain a thing, as Cabbage already explained. Sure, Battle Out Of Hell might be a tempting thing to do, but for now it is impossible, because there are shortcuts needing over 250 FPS, which i really would like to show, but just could not do it with the current fraps. Painkiller Overdose is a good game to speedrun - plenty of shortcuts, although not for my taste.

As much as i would like to improve my run, this ain't gona happen, because it takes a lot mentally and physically from you + you have to train gain just to get in shape + i have other, older and newer games to "refind" out, do walkthroughs, reviews and similar videos.

You can find me in official Painkiller forums, where i roam, as a moderator:

Le Prince Noir
Exploding that is just one way of wording it.
It's not a trauma run as I see it but a set of IL runs. Now it depends on what you consider the table to be. Either a full game separated in IL runs or a full run separated in levels.

Isn't it a bit unprecedented to see a game with unavailable levels on the highest difficulty? I don't know what slipped through the devs mind Smiley

Quote from Artas1984:
Many of the level times, as said, have been improved - they have been improved after i presented my run on the 7th of February, 2011. So, understand where i am getting?

Some already existed. For those pointed (apart from base if I'm right) they are newer and hence just a basis to evaluate how good you did.
Beating every time from the first set of runs is in itself a great achievement meaning that all runs are solid. They really should be considered as improvements over an old set of runs.

Quote from Artas1984:
the gate in the end of the air tunnel typically does not open - i started killing the samurais knowing that the gates will not open, but suddenly the gates did open - it happens rarely

Believed that until I saw Risto's run. Interesting to know it's a bug. Any idea of the odds for this to happen?

Quote from Artas1984:
i hate that shortcut and think is BS personally.

Bullshit or not, it's coherent with your rules and faster.

Quote from Artas1984:
that shortcut needs over 250 FPS to execute it - impossible with fraps.

Yet cydoy managed to record it. How did he do that? Not saying you should have done it, just curious as how to get rid of fraps for running this game. Better fps control makes such a big difference: no input lag, easier shortcuts, better objects physics...
The higher FPS use worries me a bit. Because a run of Cold Fear was rejected because the runner used something like 200+ FPS in a segment in order to skip a boss fight because the higher FPS made him move at like twice the speed which is just wrong.
Le Prince Noir
Now I remember you raised this point already when I told you about using the pain on the box in cow.

Making it a general rule seems a bit strange. What about Quake 3 games where a couple of high values gave better physics on speed and jump height?
Higher fps also impact mouse input in general. I stopped running L4D because of a bad demo script forcing me to rely on fraps while playing. The low fps was giving me insane negative accel. In PK, the lower the fps, the higher the input lag.

Maybe it should be thought on a per-game basis.
Having speed and framerate bound together seems a bit absurd indeed but the shortcuts and effects enabled by the high fps in PK seem interesting. The effect on speed is insignificant according to the speedmeter. I believe the jump through the fence in C1L2 - Atrium Complex is easier depending on framerate (certain values may be optimal, not necessarily the highest, but I didn't test it too much). Bladesurfing is framerate dependant.
You suggested to stick to 60fps for this game which makes the base shortcut unallowed (and maybe some OoB skips).
Edit history:
Ewil: 2011-04-05 03:25:20 am
Cold Fear run was rejected due to main character moving faster depending on framerate. Same goes for quite a lot of games actually (Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock 2 for example), but afaik recording with higher framerate in order to pull off a shortcut is allowed and was used in several runs, Tomb Raider: Anniversary for example.

I personally think that if framerate does not change your movement speed, it can be allowed for shortcuts.

KlVis: The 250fps shortcut probably varies with different PCs. I remember the exact same problem in Tomb Raider: Anniversary. Some people were able to pull off a shortcut in 30fps only while others like me were not able to do it at all or with much different framerate and it wasn't about skill or luck, that shortcut was easy, you just couldn't reach high enough.
When will be the speedrun included here?:

Once the run has reached its turn to be posted in a news post. There are quite a handful runs waiting in line before yours so expect a month or two.
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2011-04-05 08:54:44 pm
I am fine with hosting my videos in my own server, as well as in youtube, but what are the cases where SDA also hosts videos? SDA typically recompress the videos to it's own format? SDA posts a logo before each video, that the video is smooth and no cheating. If that is to be, perhaps i should redo those speedruns, where the quality is lower than the majority?
Le Prince Noir
Quote from Artas1984:
I am fine with hosting my videos in my own server, as well as in youtube, but what are the cases where SDA also hosts videos?
In all the cases SDA will host the videos on its own servers as well as archive.org for posterity Smiley

Quote from Artas1984:
SDA typically recompress the videos to it's own format?
Most runs are produced as raw uncompressed video. If you've kept the fraps files you'll either have to encode them to a couple of videos compressed with different bitrate (very smoothly automated by a program named anri-chan) and send the results to nate or send the raw files to nate so that he makes the process himself.

Quote from Artas1984:
SDA posts a logo before each video, that the video is smooth and no cheating. If that is to be, perhaps i should redo those speedruns, where the quality is lower than the majority?
The logo means that the runs passed the verification process succesfully which is already the case. If you want to redo these levels, you're welcome to do so ( Tongue ), but you'll have to produce times at least as good as those already submitted. Better video quality but slower runs isn't needed.

Quote from Ewil:
Some people were able to pull off a shortcut in 30fps only while others like me were not able to do it at all or with much different framerate
Strange effect indeed. Some shortcuts are really acting weird, not like they were meant to exist in the first place. Ask moooh about the Serious Sam Valley of The Jaguar OoB shortcut. I have yet to figure out how it works exactly for consistency. It's often a combination of frame calculation, player speed and angle, hit location that breaks a wall stop code.
With limited experience with it I'd say that many physics in PK are related to fps. Speed has a coded cap for ingame bunnyhoping though so that you can't abuse it but at high fps the speedmeter will be more stable close to the highest value.
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2011-06-18 07:51:57 am
Artas1984: 2011-06-18 07:51:50 am
Artas1984: 2011-06-18 07:51:36 am
It has been a while.

I still do not see Painkiller in this list:


I hope you have not forgot about it!
Edit history:
moooh: 2011-06-18 09:53:44 am
Don't you worry. Noone's forgotten about it. It will be seen in that list as soon as this run is next in line for a news post.
Nice to see the speedrun finally on the gamelist, but it seems like all the links is broken http://speeddemosarchive.com/Painkiller.html
Hmm, the link to download the entire run works properly, but the links to individual level downloads on the game page are broken.

Just use this link for now: http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?Painkiller_trauma

but the other links on the game page should get fixed asap.
Should be working now.
Balls jerky

    This item was not found. Perhaps it is an old run which has been improved.
Works for me, dballin. Try refreshing the page?
Balls jerky
Ok now it works. Guess I have to force refresh everything since going back to a page normally doesn't work. gj evry1