Ori and the Blind Forest

2015-04-02 04:02:26 am

R3 Lava Skip with hitboxes, video courtesy of DevilSquirrel as usual! I'm fairly confident his preferred technique is WITHOUT the stick being neutral, suggesting he is probably going slower than you could with a neutral stick (glide bashing).

It looks like skipping the 2nd wall is essentially pixel perfect given the method used by DevilSquirrel, Ori is moving BARELY more than a hitbox per frame, which is essential to skipping outside the hitbox between the frames. Hence, more speed = larger window, if you're going as slow as DevilSquirrel though, the window is going to be close to 1-2px or so, which means the trick is going to be very hard to get consistent. So here's to hoping that "fast bashing" gives you more speed.

Frame-by-frame: http://imgur.com/a/5KhQu

Vulajin

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2015-04-02 05:19:40 am

2015-04-02 05:18:53 am

100% category discussion

(Full disclosure: the only reason I'm involved in this discussion is that I am a mod of the speedrun.com LB, and for some reason people talk to me about these things. Take my opinions below with less weight than those of people who actually run the 100% category, whatever it may be.)

I have heard from a couple people that the current 100% category rules (100% map completion, all health+energy+ability cells) are worthy of reevaluation. Particularly, the suggestion was made to me by a few individuals to remove the 100% map completion requirement from the category definition. Note that, at the moment, 100% map completion is the only criterion used by the game to calculate completion percentage. The rationale behind this suggestion is as follows:

1) The game's map completion tracking is currently somewhat buggy, and on multiple occasions 100% runners have lost runs due to not having parts of the map counted by the game even though they passed through them.
2) The act of completing the map requires exploring the map in a very detailed way that sometimes forces odd movements and jumps into pointless places just to get map completion. Also, there are a lot of such movements to remember.
3) The preceding two reasons detract runners who might otherwise consider the category from running it.

If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.

[b]100% category discussion[/b]

(Full disclosure: the only reason I'm involved in this discussion is that I am a mod of the speedrun.com LB, and for some reason people talk to me about these things. Take my opinions below with less weight than those of people who actually run the 100% category, whatever it may be.)

I have heard from a couple people that the current 100% category rules (100% map completion, all health+energy+ability cells) are worthy of reevaluation. Particularly, the suggestion was made to me by a few individuals to remove the 100% map completion requirement from the category definition. Note that, at the moment, 100% map completion is the [i]only[/i] criterion used by the game to calculate completion percentage. The rationale behind this suggestion is as follows:

1) The game's map completion tracking is currently somewhat buggy, and on multiple occasions 100% runners have lost runs due to not having parts of the map counted by the game even though they passed through them.
2) The act of completing the map requires exploring the map in a very detailed way that sometimes forces odd movements and jumps into pointless places just to get map completion. Also, there are a lot of such movements to remember.
3) The preceding two reasons detract runners who might otherwise consider the category from running it.

If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.

Onin

2015-04-02 05:37:55 am

100% map completion can still be its own, separate category. So we'd have Any%, All Collectibles, and 100%, all with pretty significantly different routes.

EstonianViking

2015-04-02 06:08:17 am

Quote from Vulajin:

If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.

I know personally what it feels like to lose a 100% run because you've missed going to one small area on some part of the map, so I can understand the frustration of some people. I've done it multiple times and wasted ~10 hours worth of my time during my runs, easily.

But the thing is, the game doesn't care if it's annoying to you or if it's too hard or boring or time-consuming. If the game requires you to visit all the special nudges of the map for it to count as 100% then that is the rule-set for this specific game. It shouldn't be compared to 100% categories of other games. I don't think the category should be changed JUST because it's too hard/annoying/time consuming to visit some of the areas unoptimally.
I learned it the hard way and now I know which areas to go to and which areas not to (and there's still A LOT of work to do to optimize it better). It is a matter of learning the 100% movement route and having the skill to remember it.

Let's take any% for example. There are a ton of hard skips (iceless, left Horu, R3 Horu etc.) that I'm sure have a lot of the any% runners deterred, because if you don't learn them, you're not going to get the top times. Why should 100% be any different in that regard ?

Also, you mentioned that we are requiring 'additional completion criteria'. The current rule-set says 12 Health Cells, 15 Energy Cells, 26 Ability Cells and 100% map completion for the game to count as 100%, which is true. Can you specify what you mean by that ?

However, if you really want to make an "All Cells"/"All Pickups" category, go for it, just don't mess with 100% Smiley

An additional idea would be to ask the developers of the game about maybe making the map-detection area a lot more flexible, let's say make some of the map-detection chunks a little bigger ? Because there is a lot of inconsistency with it, where some areas you only need to visit the starting 5% of the area to load the missing 95% chunk and vice-versa.

[quote="Vulajin"]
If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.[/quote]

I know personally what it feels like to lose a 100% run because you've missed going to one small area on some part of the map, so I can understand the frustration of some people. I've done it multiple times and wasted ~10 hours worth of my time during my runs, easily.

But the thing is, the game doesn't care if it's annoying to you or if it's too hard or boring or time-consuming. If the game requires you to visit all the special nudges of the map for it to count as 100% then that is the rule-set for this specific game. It shouldn't be compared to 100% categories of other games. I don't think the category should be changed JUST because it's too hard/annoying/time consuming to visit some of the areas unoptimally. 
I learned it the hard way and now I know which areas to go to and which areas not to (and there's still A LOT of work to do to optimize it better). It is a matter of learning the 100% movement route and having the skill to remember it.

Let's take any% for example. There are a ton of hard skips (iceless, left Horu, R3 Horu etc.) that I'm sure have a lot of the any% runners deterred, because if you don't learn them, you're not going to get the top times. Why should 100% be any different in that regard ?

Also, you mentioned that we are requiring 'additional completion criteria'. The current rule-set says 12 Health Cells, 15 Energy Cells, 26 Ability Cells and 100% map completion for the game to count as 100%, which is true. Can you specify what you mean by that ?

However, if you really want to make an "All Cells"/"All Pickups" category, go for it, just don't mess with 100% :)

An additional idea would be to ask the developers of the game about maybe making the map-detection area a lot more flexible, let's say make some of the map-detection chunks a little bigger ? Because there is a lot of inconsistency with it, where some areas you only need to visit the starting 5% of the area to load the missing 95% chunk and vice-versa.

Mylexsi

2015-04-02 06:36:35 am

I'd argue that the % meter on the menu was not intended to denote game completion percentage - because frankly that just doesn't make any bloody sense - and is purely a measure of map exploration. The reason it is more prominent than other statistics would simply be because map exploration is an easy rough guide for to tell casual players how far through the game they are(and therefore how much more game to expect), rather than the devs having to create some kind of algorithm that figures it out.
It's accurate enough for that purpose, but again just doesn't make any sense as a measure for level of actual completion.

Taking that into account, it loses any kind of reason to be used as the primary definition of a 100% category; it just happens to be the only stat tracked as a percentage, and just happens to be on the menu. It's not especially important in any way and makes the category seem pretty silly/arbitrary; allowing for the skipping of the kind of completable content normally expected to be completed in a 100% run.
That said, it is a completable thing tracked by the menu, and typically a 100% run is defined by those things in the absence of a real completion meter(which, to be clear, is what I'm arguing is the case here). So, on that note, I'd say:

100% = All Health, Energy & Ability Cells, Map Completion, Skills, and 'Events'.

Beyond that, make whatever categories you like. If you find doing Explorer% fun, then who the hell am I to stop you?
And in the same vein, a 99%/Mapless100%/Lost%/BlindToTheForest%/whatever is just as viable(and I'd reckon a good thing to have if for no other reason than if someone's map bugs to 99% then their run still isn't completely worthless)

I'd argue that the % meter on the menu was not intended to denote game completion percentage - because frankly that just doesn't make any bloody sense - and is [i]purely[/i] a measure of map exploration. The reason it is more prominent than other statistics would simply be because map exploration is an easy rough guide for to tell casual players how far through the game they are(and therefore how much more game to expect), rather than the devs having to create some kind of algorithm that figures it out.
It's accurate enough for [i]that[/i] purpose, but again just doesn't make any sense as a measure for level of [i]actual completion[/i].

Taking that into account, it loses any kind of reason to be used as the primary definition of a 100% category; it just happens to be the only stat tracked as a percentage, and just happens to be on the menu. It's not especially important in any way and makes the category seem pretty silly/arbitrary; allowing for the skipping of the kind of completable content normally expected to be completed in a 100% run.
That said, it [i]is[/i] a completable thing tracked by the menu, and typically a 100% run is defined by those things in the absence of a real completion meter(which, to be clear, is what I'm arguing is the case here). So, on that note, I'd say:

100% = All Health, Energy & Ability Cells, Map Completion, Skills, and 'Events'.

Beyond that, make whatever categories you like. If you find doing Explorer% fun, then who the hell am I to stop you?
And in the same vein, a 99%/Mapless100%/Lost%/BlindToTheForest%/whatever is just as viable(and I'd reckon a good thing to have if for no other reason than if someone's map bugs to 99% then their run still isn't completely worthless)

AdamPrimer

Edit history:

AdamPrimer: 2015-04-02 06:50:26 am

AdamPrimer: 2015-04-02 06:48:12 am

2015-04-02 06:45:52 am

Frog Port Explained

Firstly: because of how this trick works, the use of a frog already up on
the platform is considered cheating and not allowed in record attempts.
Stricter rules, such as requiring game restart between runs (the reason for
this is clear from the technical explanation below) but I believe no consensus
has been reached yet, input is welcome.

Executive Summary

Because I know none of you read.

1. There is no "frog teleport"! It requires you to have juggled a frog up there
since you last started the game.

2. Once juggled, the frog becomes stored in the game state until you reset.
- A common misunderstanding is that this has to do with loading the frog
from another save files or similar, this is not the case.

3. To rule out cheating, full game resets would be required! (though simply not
using a frog up there may be ruled)

Little Detail

As in Frog Priming, the frog juggle makes the frog homeless. This does more
than just let the zone spawn another frog, but also complete "loses" the frog
to the game. When you change save files, or reset your current save and start a
new run, the memory related to that frog is still sitting there, never
unloaded. Therefore, when you get back there, the frog just pops into view as
if you never left.

Full Detail

So Jumpman__ was correct, and the "Frog Port" is not a teleport of any kind,
it's actually a frog you've juggled up there in the past. Once this method was
confirmed by Plague006, I was able to use my debug code to confirm the
hypothesized method of action. Below is a technical explanation of what occurs
to trigger the "frog port".

To Replicate:

Note this is just a simple way to replicate it, not the only way
to do it, extra save files are not compulsory, just that the game
is not reset between a successful frog juggle and another run.

- Perform a run and do frog bash as normal.
- Go to the ledge above where you juggle the frog to and save/quit.
- Either load another save and get to Wind Valley, or delete the save file
you're using and start a new run up to Wind Valley.
- Go up to where you juggled the frog, and you'll see your friend again!

Why does this occur?

Game objects in unity exist in heirarchies in order to find and deal with
them efficiently. In this game, each frog has a "parent" zone. When a frog is
taken out of its zone, and that zone is unloaded, the frog becomes
"parentless" (homeless) because its parent no longer exists.

One of two things happen at this stage:
1. If the frog is on the screen, it continues to exist
2. If the frog is off the screen, it gets cleaned up when its parent is removed

In the case of the Frog Juggle, we take the only frog in the zone
"valleyOfTheWindHubIceLaserB" and move it into the zone
"valleyOfTheWindWideMid". When you go high enough into "valleyOfTheWindWideMid"
as done in a speedrun, the frog's home, IceLaserB is unloaded and the frog
becomes homeless. Because it's on the screen, it doesn't get removed.

Now, this frog doesn't belong to the WindWideMid zone, so when that zone is
unloaded, such as by saving and quitting, or simply continuing a run, the frog
continues to exist. It has "leaked". No object is still looking after it, so it
never gets unloaded. Even on the menu.

We can prove that the frog never goes anywhere by performing a frog juggle and
using my debug text to see the Object ID (In video: -2468908) of the frog. An
object number is guaranteed by Unity to be unique, and these change every time
a new object is created.

In the video you can see me after performing (the slowest, most cheated,
and embarassing but ultimately irrelevant to the glitch) frog juggle. I have gone
to the platform above and saved (note this is NOT essential for the trick to
work, this is just a reliable way to quickly demonstrate it).

I then load an alternate save file (you'll have to trust me on that, my
internet is too slow to handle an uncut video of me struggling my way up there
from file load). And head up to the where the frog should be, and lo' and
behold, not only is there a frog, but the Object ID is identical.

This conclusively shows that the frog is never actually unloaded from memory,
which will persist until the game is completely closed. This is therefore the
only way to ensure the frog wont come back between attempts. A ruling must
therefore be made on if this is enforced, or how the community wants to handle
this. As long as the frog juggle is performed, it may be the case that an extra
frog up there isn't considered a big deal. Input is welcome.

PS: Sorry to wall of text your discussion Vulajin. I personally think that 100% is more enjoyable and in
the spirit of the meaning across games in general if map% was ignored and it was more important to
get all menu items (including events), as this is what is more standard.

[b]Frog Port Explained[/b]

Firstly: [b]because of how this trick works, the use of a frog already up on
the platform is considered cheating and not allowed in record attempts.[/b]
Stricter rules, such as requiring game restart between runs (the reason for
this is clear from the technical explanation below) but I believe no consensus
has been reached yet, input is welcome.

[b]Executive Summary[/b]

Because I know none of you read.

1. There is no "frog teleport"! It requires you to have juggled a frog up there
since you last started the game.

2. Once juggled, the frog becomes stored in the game state until you reset.
	- A common misunderstanding is that this has to do with loading the frog
	  from another save files or similar, this is not the case.

3. To rule out cheating, full game resets would be required! (though simply not
using a frog up there may be ruled)

[b]Little Detail[/b]

As in Frog Priming, the frog juggle makes the frog homeless. This does more
than just let the zone spawn another frog, but also complete "loses" the frog
to the game. When you change save files, or reset your current save and start a
new run, the memory related to that frog is still sitting there, never
unloaded. Therefore, when you get back there, the frog just pops into view as
if you never left.

[b]Full Detail[/b]

So Jumpman__ was correct, and the "Frog Port" is not a teleport of any kind,
it's actually a frog you've juggled up there in the past. Once this method was
confirmed by Plague006, I was able to use my debug code to confirm the
hypothesized method of action. Below is a technical explanation of what occurs
to trigger the "frog port".

To Replicate:

[b]Note this is just a simple way to replicate it, not the only way
to do it, extra save files are not compulsory, just that the game 
is not reset between a successful frog juggle and another run.[/b]

- Perform a run and do frog bash as normal. 
- Go to the ledge above where you juggle the frog to and save/quit.
- Either load another save and get to Wind Valley, or delete the save file
  you're using and start a new run up to Wind Valley.
- Go up to where you juggled the frog, and you'll see your friend again!

Why does this occur?

Game objects in unity exist in heirarchies in order to find and deal with
them efficiently. In this game, each frog has a "parent" zone. When a frog is
taken out of its zone, and that zone is unloaded, the frog becomes
"parentless" (homeless) because its parent no longer exists.

One of two things happen at this stage:
1. If the frog is on the screen, it continues to exist
2. If the frog is off the screen, it gets cleaned up when its parent is removed

In the case of the Frog Juggle, we take the only frog in the zone
"valleyOfTheWindHubIceLaserB" and move it into the zone
"valleyOfTheWindWideMid". When you go high enough into "valleyOfTheWindWideMid"
as done in a speedrun, the frog's home, IceLaserB is unloaded and the frog
becomes homeless. Because it's on the screen, it doesn't get removed.

Now, this frog doesn't belong to the WindWideMid zone, so when that zone is
unloaded, such as by saving and quitting, or simply continuing a run, the frog
continues to exist. It has "leaked". No object is still looking after it, so it
never gets unloaded. Even on the menu.

We can prove that the frog never goes anywhere by performing a frog juggle and
using my debug text to see the Object ID (In video: -2468908) of the frog. An
object number is guaranteed by Unity to be unique, and these change every time
a new object is created.

In the video you can see me after performing (the slowest, most cheated,
and embarassing but ultimately irrelevant to the glitch) frog juggle. I have gone
to the platform above and saved (note this is NOT essential for the trick to
work, this is just a reliable way to quickly demonstrate it).

I then load an alternate save file (you'll have to trust me on that, my
internet is too slow to handle an uncut video of me struggling my way up there
from file load). And head up to the where the frog should be, and lo' and
behold, not only is there a frog, but the Object ID is identical.

This conclusively shows that the frog is never actually unloaded from memory,
which will persist until the game is completely closed. This is therefore the
only way to ensure the frog wont come back between attempts. A ruling must
therefore be made on if this is enforced, or how the community wants to handle
this. As long as the frog juggle is performed, it may be the case that an extra
frog up there isn't considered a big deal. Input is welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMKPjCxKgEU

PS: Sorry to wall of text your discussion Vulajin. I personally think that 100% is more enjoyable and in 
the spirit of the meaning across games in general if map% was ignored and it was more important to 
get all menu items (including events), as this is what is more standard.

Wnbeser

2015-04-02 06:56:55 am

I think we should actually restart the game after every attempt that has gotten into the frog juggle part of the game to avoid controversy. Like what if the non juggled frog destroys the ceiling and not the juggled one ? That's faster for sure or maybe you don't know which frog shot the projectile and you go bit to early upwards. By resetting the game we would avoid potential issues like these.

EstonianViking

2015-04-02 08:26:24 am

@Mylexsi
I agree that it was just the developer's way of arbitrarily defining that you have completed 100% of the game. If they had defined it to be also collecting ALL the experience orbs and explore ALL the secrets, then the 100% route would be much more different and we'd have to follow that IMO. The current 100% definition works completely fine, even though we go through some parts of the game not quite as intended, but the end-game menu screen verifies the 100% completion.

@Adamprimer, I just don't like the notion of "Yeah, a new WR in 100% category! Oh, the menu/leaderboard shows 96%, who cares, lol". So it should be a separate category if map% is disregarded.

As are with other games, the community of the speedrunners of a specific game decide what kind of categories should exist and what are the rules for them, there is really no limit to stopping us. Look at all the weird categories Ocarina of Time has for example. If we want to make new categories, then let's go for it, as long as the ruleset for each one of them is agreed upon.
Currently we only have 2 categories but could have much more. For example Elite (no abilities) category would be interesting to do, or the proposed All-Cells/Mapless100% (or whatever you want to call it :D).

@Mylexsi
I agree that it was just the developer's way of arbitrarily defining that you have completed 100% of the game. If they had defined it to be also collecting ALL the experience orbs and explore ALL the secrets, then the 100% route would be much more different and we'd have to follow that IMO. The current 100% definition works completely fine, even though we go through some parts of the game not quite as intended, but the end-game menu screen verifies the 100% completion.

@Adamprimer, I just don't like the notion of "Yeah, a new WR in 100% category! Oh, the menu/leaderboard shows 96%, who cares, lol". So it should be a separate category if map% is disregarded.

As are with other games, the community of the speedrunners of a specific game decide what kind of categories should exist and what are the rules for them, there is really no limit to stopping us. Look at all the weird categories Ocarina of Time has for example. If we want to make new categories, then let's go for it, as long as the ruleset for each one of them is agreed upon.
Currently we only have 2 categories but could have much more. For example Elite (no abilities) category would be interesting to do, or the proposed All-Cells/Mapless100% (or whatever you want to call it :D).

pobdoq

Edit history:

pobdoq: 2015-04-02 10:02:56 am

2015-04-02 09:57:47 am

Found a weird glitch while practicing the lava skip on the left side.
After it happening twice, I wasn't able to replicate it.
It might give non climbless runners the ability to chargejump through the lava.

Edit: happened again, but this time I could not leave on the right side. This glitch is probably useless

X1Two

2015-04-02 10:19:34 am

I'd say if we get rid of 100 % map completion the map fragments should be included as mandatory items for the 100 % run. After all they are collectables.

irish_00

2015-04-02 10:29:58 am

thnx for your work, Adam

AdamPrimer

2015-04-03 06:26:22 am

A small find, largely irrelevant, but posting it here in case one day the game gets so optimised perhaps this is a thing. Basically, the explanation text for the XP bubbles go away once you have bash for certain sized bubbles. As I said... small...

case ExpOrbPickup.ExpOrbMessageType.None:
if (!this.Sein.PlayerAbilities.WallJump.HasAbility)
{
this.ExpOrbInfo.RunActionIfFirstTime();
}
break;
case ExpOrbPickup.ExpOrbMessageType.PickupSmall:
if (!this.Sein.PlayerAbilities.Bash.HasAbility)
{
this.SmallExpOrbInfo.RunActionIfFirstTime();
}
break;
case ExpOrbPickup.ExpOrbMessageType.PickupMedium:
if (!this.Sein.PlayerAbilities.Bash.HasAbility)
{
this.MediumExpOrbInfo.RunActionIfFirstTime();
}
break;
case ExpOrbPickup.ExpOrbMessageType.PickupLarge:
if (!this.Sein.PlayerAbilities.Bash.HasAbility)
{
this.LargeExpOrbInfo.RunActionIfFirstTime();
}
break;
}

Wnbeser

Edit history:

Wnbeser: 2015-04-03 07:30:26 am

Wnbeser: 2015-04-03 07:30:02 am

Wnbeser: 2015-04-03 07:29:58 am

Wnbeser: 2015-04-03 07:29:57 am

2015-04-03 07:04:58 am

I was mistaken this was not true

Vulajin

2015-04-03 03:24:33 pm

More category stuff

Having discussed the former proposal further with relevant people, here's where we seem to be at:

- 100% runners want the current 100% category to continue to exist.
- Even though the current 100% category has more requirements than what the game defines as 100%, there are no real contenders for a category name that doesn't sound awful other than "100%".
- We've seen interest in the hypothetical "all cells" category already, but we need to formalize some rules.

It seems like the general goal for 100% is to require the player to "do everything" that is tracked on the pause screen, including collecting skills and cells and completing world progress (e.g. wind escape - don't just get the cell in Forlorn Ruins and leave). As far as we can tell, just requiring map completion and cells is enough to force this, because you have to finish the Woods to get into Ruins, you have to finish the wind escape to get access to at least one ability cell, and you need climb and charge jump to reach a different one. Thus, for now, there's no need to amend or change the 100% category rules.

Thus, for the all cells category, the same implied requirements apply, and you'll have to get all skills and complete all world progress. Thus, the rules for all cells will strictly be "collect all 12 health cells, 15 energy cells, and 26 ability cells".

The following part applies to any%

Now, I want to clarify something about any% rules. Recently we discovered that some of the game state isn't cleared between runs. This is the mechanism responsible for the "frog teleport" trick. The fact that this happens makes me nervous that other aspects of game state could be preserved from run to run without our realizing it. Thus, my inclination is to require a full game restart between attempts. Here are some facts about this:

- It will suck. No way around that.
- Your run recording (on Twitch or Youtube) would be expected to have some part of the startup sequence (e.g. the logos) in it to verify that you did restart.
- You would be expected not to load any other saves between starting the game and starting your attempt.
- If you're on Xbox One...you're going to incur an additional ~30 second load. I don't know what to do about this. Switch to SDA timing and start on first movement?

Please share your thoughts on this. I know it won't be popular, but I really don't want to have to make individual rules like "you are required to juggle a frog yourself" to accommodate specific instances of game state carrying over.

[b]More category stuff[/b]

Having discussed the former proposal further with relevant people, here's where we seem to be at:

- 100% runners want the current 100% category to continue to exist.
- Even though the current 100% category has more requirements than what the game defines as 100%, there are no real contenders for a category name that doesn't sound awful other than "100%".
- We've seen interest in the hypothetical "all cells" category already, but we need to formalize some rules.

It seems like the general goal for 100% is to require the player to "do everything" that is tracked on the pause screen, including collecting skills and cells and completing world progress (e.g. wind escape - don't just get the cell in Forlorn Ruins and leave). As far as we can tell, just requiring map completion and cells is enough to force this, because you have to finish the Woods to get into Ruins, you have to finish the wind escape to get access to at least one ability cell, and you need climb and charge jump to reach a different one. [b]Thus, for now, there's no need to amend or change the 100% category rules.[/b]

Thus, for the all cells category, the same implied requirements apply, and you'll have to get all skills and complete all world progress. [b]Thus, the rules for all cells will strictly be "collect all 12 health cells, 15 energy cells, and 26 ability cells".[/b]

[b][u]The following part applies to any%[/u][/b]

Now, I want to clarify something about any% rules. Recently we discovered that some of the game state isn't cleared between runs. This is the mechanism responsible for the "frog teleport" trick. The fact that this happens makes me nervous that other aspects of game state could be preserved from run to run without our realizing it. [b]Thus, my inclination is to require a full game restart between attempts.[/b] Here are some facts about this:

- It will suck. No way around that.
- Your run recording (on Twitch or Youtube) would be expected to have some part of the startup sequence (e.g. the logos) in it to verify that you did restart.
- You would be expected not to load any other saves between starting the game and starting your attempt.
- If you're on Xbox One...you're going to incur an additional ~30 second load. I don't know what to do about this. Switch to SDA timing and start on first movement?

Please share your thoughts on this. I know it won't be popular, but I really don't want to have to make individual rules like "you are required to juggle a frog yourself" to accommodate specific instances of game state carrying over.

Onin

2015-04-03 03:37:51 pm

Judging by the mechanics of enemy movement, I think it's safe to assume that there is practically no way to get a "homeless" enemy without Bash. Most enemies follow a regular pattern of movement or have regular barriers to their movement, and can only be moved past these barriers through Bashing. So I don't feel mandating full resets for every single attempt is necessary.

So if you're going to reset before Ginso Tree, there's no way you're going to have lingering mobs. For most areas after Ginso, there's no real reason for mobs to be outside their home area, since none of the current strats manipulate mobs so significantly. In other words, I don't see a reason to force game resets for attempts that didn't do the Frog Juggle.

Of course, if someone applies some other form of mob priming, it'll be pretty obvious to spot, we all know where every mob is supposed to spawn.

mrasmus

2015-04-03 03:52:48 pm

I don't like the idea of restarting, personally. I think that players should probably restart after triggering that particular leaked frog, because it specifically does potentially get in the way/confuse things, but requiring restart verification is a pretty decent burden on runners. It just slows down run iteration times in an annoying way. If we want to hardline to prevent that frog dupe, we can just say "Runs that have that frog show up are DQ'd from the leaderboard, so make sure to restart your game if your run makes it to the Sunstone." That would suck a lot less.

As Onin points out, orphaned game objects like this are very few and far between, and we are all familiar with the layout of enemies such that verifying a video to make sure somebody isn't like... getting an extra mob's worth of exp or something is pretty trivial. There's little advantage to be had outside of skipping frog juggle, at least that's been discovered/demonstrated. The advantage just hasn't been shown outside of this one case, and any small advantage will be obvious.

I submit that the rule should be "No intentional persistent game state ("orphaned" enemies, etc.) setup before your timed run is allowed, and any duplicated enemies cannot be taken advantage of within your run." For the sake of clarity for verification regarding the orphaned juggle frog, if we so desire, we could add a specific clause saying that that's a DQ. This language could maybe use some work.

If someone demonstrates something later on, further clauses/language can be refined to address it.

Finally, I will say that if we're going to require restarts, I'd like to point this out: The memory leaks we have come to understand (the things that are persistent between runs) are based on assets/game objects instantiated during play. If the Xbox has additional loading on first file launch, I believe it would be safe to allow Xbox runners to start a new save file, then immediately exit and start their run on another slot/delete it normally. This would also be shown in the run video, but the timer would not start until the actual run starts. This would let them skip the load within the run itself.

I don't like the idea of restarting, personally. I think that players should probably restart after triggering that particular leaked frog, because it specifically does potentially get in the way/confuse things, but requiring restart verification is a pretty decent burden on runners. It just slows down run iteration times in an annoying way. If we want to hardline to prevent that frog dupe, we can just say "Runs that have that frog show up are DQ'd from the leaderboard, so make sure to restart your game if your run makes it to the Sunstone." That would suck a lot less.

As Onin points out, orphaned game objects like this are very few and far between, and we are all familiar with the layout of enemies such that verifying a video to make sure somebody isn't like... getting an extra mob's worth of exp or something is pretty trivial. There's little advantage to be had outside of skipping frog juggle, at least that's been discovered/demonstrated. The advantage just hasn't been shown outside of this one case, and any small advantage will be obvious.

I submit that the rule should be "No intentional persistent game state ("orphaned" enemies, etc.) setup before your timed run is allowed, and any duplicated enemies cannot be taken advantage of within your run." For the sake of clarity for verification regarding the orphaned juggle frog, if we so desire, we could add a specific clause saying that that's a DQ. This language could maybe use some work.

If someone demonstrates something later on, further clauses/language can be refined to address it.

Finally, I will say that if we're going to require restarts, I'd like to point this out: The memory leaks we have come to understand (the things that are persistent between runs) are based on assets/game objects instantiated during play. If the Xbox has additional loading on first file launch, I believe it would be safe to allow Xbox runners to start a new save file, then immediately exit and start their run on another slot/delete it normally. This would also be shown in the run video, but the timer would not start until the actual run starts. This would let them skip the load within the run itself.

AdamPrimer

2015-04-03 03:55:30 pm

I will mostly add (since I'm not a runner, so my opinion doesn't matter much otherwise) that restarting would probably help with lag and the fact that game is more likely to crash the longer it runs. So like, it would kind of be safer for runners to reset after every run just for that as well.

phoenixriku

2015-04-03 04:04:52 pm

Got some twitter messages today about someone asking to add a new category for Ori which is get all power ups, but specifically not explore 100% of the map. Personally I think it is a pretty bad idea since it is seems like an extremely made up category, but thought I'd put it on here and not just make a decision like that for myself. It is like having a 90% complete category for a game.

Vulajin

2015-04-03 04:16:59 pm

Phoenixriku, there has been some ongoing discussion about that, please read the last page or two. There's also been a fair amount of conversation in streams and, in general, the new category has a non-trivial amount of support (compared to existing 100%).

phoenixriku

Edit history:

phoenixriku: 2015-04-03 04:24:34 pm

2015-04-03 04:23:50 pm

Yeah, but as a separate category seems silly. If you want to change 100% change 100%, not have 100% and a category along the lines of "Collect all power ups, but avoid exploring all of the map". Anyway my opinions I haven't been apart because still have crashing issues. I'm just against making categories to make categories. So I'm fine changing the definition of the 100% run, but I was asked to make an entirely new category.

Vinyl7th

2015-04-03 04:31:33 pm

Quote from EstonianViking:

Quote from Vulajin:

If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.

I know personally what it feels like to lose a 100% run because you've missed going to one small area on some part of the map, so I can understand the frustration of some people. I've done it multiple times and wasted ~10 hours worth of my time during my runs, easily.

But the thing is, the game doesn't care if it's annoying to you or if it's too hard or boring or time-consuming. If the game requires you to visit all the special nudges of the map for it to count as 100% then that is the rule-set for this specific game. It shouldn't be compared to 100% categories of other games. I don't think the category should be changed JUST because it's too hard/annoying/time consuming to visit some of the areas unoptimally.
I learned it the hard way and now I know which areas to go to and which areas not to (and there's still A LOT of work to do to optimize it better). It is a matter of learning the 100% movement route and having the skill to remember it.

Let's take any% for example. There are a ton of hard skips (iceless, left Horu, R3 Horu etc.) that I'm sure have a lot of the any% runners deterred, because if you don't learn them, you're not going to get the top times. Why should 100% be any different in that regard ?

Also, you mentioned that we are requiring 'additional completion criteria'. The current rule-set says 12 Health Cells, 15 Energy Cells, 26 Ability Cells and 100% map completion for the game to count as 100%, which is true. Can you specify what you mean by that ?

However, if you really want to make an "All Cells"/"All Pickups" category, go for it, just don't mess with 100% Smiley

An additional idea would be to ask the developers of the game about maybe making the map-detection area a lot more flexible, let's say make some of the map-detection chunks a little bigger ? Because there is a lot of inconsistency with it, where some areas you only need to visit the starting 5% of the area to load the missing 95% chunk and vice-versa.

So, SerDilly and I are the main runners that have been considering a new category, and I think it should be noted that we dont want to change the current 100% run. There is obviously merit in the full map completion, its tracked by the game and is what gets a fully complete file.

We just also think that there is merit in a run that is a mix between any% and 100%, where its all of the tracked collectables but you dont have to search out every area of the map. This easily cuts 15~ mins from the run, and it has a more polished feeling. We are in no way advocating that the current 100% run should be changed.

We were also trying to think of a name for the new category. I think that "All Cells" would be a good name. I also think that calling the new route 100% would work if we wanted to change the current 100% run to something like "Explorer" because that is what the in game leaderboard calls it.

Either way, the name isnt important, whatever we end up calling it will be fine. I do think that it would be interesting as a run though, and it would be a good run for new players to adapt, because it gives you more health for most of the areas, and still incorperates a lot of the advanced tricks for when you really need to cut time off your run.

Thats just my two cents though. I still intend on running the current 100% as well, but it would be nice to have a faster run that feels cleaner.

[quote="EstonianViking"][quote="Vulajin"]
If this suggestion were adopted, the 100% rules would simply be to collect all 12 health cells, all 15 energy cells, and all 26 ability cells. You could do this by whatever means and in whatever order deemed fit. Obviously this would result in a significant decrease of the length of the run, but it would also still generally have the feel of a 100% run. Alternatively, there was some suggestion of requiring additional pickups (e.g. spirit light containers, map fragments, etc.), but these are not as easily tracked while the cells are all visible in the pause menu after/during the run.

Another point of discussion I would like to raise is the fact that our use of the term "100%" for this category is somewhat ambiguous. Generally, for games with an in-game completion counter, "100%" refers to achieving a maximum completion according to that counter. However, under the current ruleset, we are requiring additional completion criteria, and now I am proposing that we even eliminate consideration of the in-game completion counter entirely. In this case I feel like it may be prudent to rename the category to something less ambiguous. My first suggestion is "All Cells," but if people feel that we should keep the map completion requirement, then perhaps "100% All Cells" works as well.

Thoughts? I'm particularly interested what our present 100% runners have to say, and I would also like to hear from people who feel that they would run 100% if only it didn't require map completion.[/quote]

I know personally what it feels like to lose a 100% run because you've missed going to one small area on some part of the map, so I can understand the frustration of some people. I've done it multiple times and wasted ~10 hours worth of my time during my runs, easily.

But the thing is, the game doesn't care if it's annoying to you or if it's too hard or boring or time-consuming. If the game requires you to visit all the special nudges of the map for it to count as 100% then that is the rule-set for this specific game. It shouldn't be compared to 100% categories of other games. I don't think the category should be changed JUST because it's too hard/annoying/time consuming to visit some of the areas unoptimally. 
I learned it the hard way and now I know which areas to go to and which areas not to (and there's still A LOT of work to do to optimize it better). It is a matter of learning the 100% movement route and having the skill to remember it.

Let's take any% for example. There are a ton of hard skips (iceless, left Horu, R3 Horu etc.) that I'm sure have a lot of the any% runners deterred, because if you don't learn them, you're not going to get the top times. Why should 100% be any different in that regard ?

Also, you mentioned that we are requiring 'additional completion criteria'. The current rule-set says 12 Health Cells, 15 Energy Cells, 26 Ability Cells and 100% map completion for the game to count as 100%, which is true. Can you specify what you mean by that ?

However, if you really want to make an "All Cells"/"All Pickups" category, go for it, just don't mess with 100% :)

An additional idea would be to ask the developers of the game about maybe making the map-detection area a lot more flexible, let's say make some of the map-detection chunks a little bigger ? Because there is a lot of inconsistency with it, where some areas you only need to visit the starting 5% of the area to load the missing 95% chunk and vice-versa.[/quote]

So, SerDilly and I are the main runners that have been considering a new category, and I think it should be noted that we dont want to change the current 100% run. There is obviously merit in the full map completion, its tracked by the game and is what gets a fully complete file.

We just also think that there is merit in a run that is a mix between any% and 100%, where its all of the tracked collectables but you dont have to search out every area of the map. This easily cuts 15~ mins from the run, and it has a more polished feeling. We are in no way advocating that the current 100% run should be changed.

We were also trying to think of a name for the new category. I think that "All Cells" would be a good name. I also think that calling the new route 100% would work if we wanted to change the current 100% run to something like "Explorer" because that is what the in game leaderboard calls it.

Either way, the name isnt important, whatever we end up calling it will be fine. I do think that it would be interesting as a run though, and it would be a good run for new players to adapt, because it gives you more health for most of the areas, and still incorperates a lot of the advanced tricks for when you really need to cut time off your run.

Thats just my two cents though. I still intend on running the current 100% as well, but it would be nice to have a faster run that feels cleaner.

Wnbeser

2015-04-03 04:36:05 pm

Okay so i found out really strange way to OOB its not useful here but it might be useful somewhere else (Sorrow's Pass ?). Sadly i cant reproduce the ball sticking to the ceiling but it happened while i was killing an enemy with stomp spam.

SerDilly

Edit history:

SerDilly: 2015-04-03 04:38:35 pm

SerDilly: 2015-04-03 04:37:40 pm

2015-04-03 04:36:19 pm

Quote from EstonianViking:

the speedrunners of a specific game decide what kind of categories should exist and what are the rules for them

I LOVE this idea. Just add an All Cells category.

If we do add it, I got 1:19, but I blew it and walked past an ability cell that I even spent 4 mana on. ugh. oh, well, ay

phoenixriku

2015-04-03 04:40:11 pm

Call me a purist but I hate having a category that is solely based on: "it feels better", "it is less intimidating". There is a trivial run setting you can place. And yes runners can run whatever they want that doesn't mean everything is also on a leaderboard. I'm pretty neutral on this. Most of the people making claims either have current 100% times or have "All Cells" times. In the end people will do what they do.

SerDilly

2015-04-03 04:50:11 pm

The current 100% is arbitrary, itself, in my opinion, since the game disregards item collection in its calculation of 100% on the menu screens. I wasn't there, so I'm curious to know why collecting the items became meta in the first place for 100%.