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Quote from irish_00:
okay, guise
I am at loss - 10 hours and just 3-5 successful attemps with "iceless" (new name is definitely needed).
do you have to aim for 1 or 2 ( http://i.imgur.com/WKUNzkl.png ) because I cant even get climb animation at 2. just feel like I am missing it.
the only times when I actually managed to pull this trick off was when I was going mad and just spammed w/o thinking D;


first. Whoever finds it names it and scince mils found it its his honor.
second. try to just hold the jump button down and turn at the right moment. If you get ori to hold to the wall to the left for just a frame or two you have the turn timing.
third. spamm teh shit out of your jump button when you get the right hight and turn.

It realy is frame and pixel perfect. Its not gonna be easy. Hope this helps a little.
Edit history:
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 06:48:30 pm
So I wanted to look into my theories, and it seems there is a fair amount of variation in where each of the 3 attempts targets, so I'm not sure that's helpful, though no successful attempts target the large dip near the top, so that might be a thing to avoid.



I noticed something more important! In all three attempts, the tip of the arrow, just clips into the right hand lava flow animation. This is clearer on the frame exactly after the Bash starts as the glow whitens the inner lava area and makes the two side parts clearer. It may simply be a matter of getting close enough and getting the arrow in the right spot.



Also weirdly, in Attempt 3, Ori doesn't teleport to the location of the projectile before performing the Bash, while he/she/it does in the other two attempts. I wonder what causes Ori to either teleport or not teleport to the location. I can't see anything special about Ori's position relative to the projectile or angle. This may suggest my hunch is true though, and that there is a lot going behind the scenes in Bash than would be immediately obvious.

[EDIT] I just noticed that the non-teleport occurs when the arrow is aiming really low on the target, potentially suggesting there is some look-ahead, and it leaves Ori higher to "help" the player? We eould need to look at many more bashes to understand this I think.


Another tree OOB location, but this one isn't useful, reset triggers all around the place.
Very nice , I actually tried this but I didn't clip.
Btw , can you go back in bounds? That would be cool to backtrack once you get the bash ability.
Quote from Evooki:
first. Whoever finds it names it and scince mils found it its his honor.

totally agree but when person finds few skips - name has to be found. also thanks. Ill keep on trying.
Edit history:
Onin: 2015-03-26 06:56:06 pm
Onin: 2015-03-26 06:52:41 pm
Quote from MilsTailsPrower:
Very nice , I actually tried this but I didn't clip.
Btw , can you go back in bounds? That would be cool to backtrack once you get the bash ability.

I only managed to climb back into the flower room to get back inbounds, which isn't helpful.

Edit: Actually, it is possible! Shocked With the right jump arc you can get into one of the teleporters below and backtrack from there.
Nice! Dunno if it will help for a run though , still good to know it's possible!
Edit history:
Onin: 2015-03-26 07:19:53 pm
So in order to make use of this, you have to:

1. Proceed up Ginso tree as normal until Bash. Then continue and gather 2 Keystones.
2. Backtrack using the OOB. Exit the tree.
3. Make your way through Moon Grotto towards the Smash area, and somehow survive getting through it.
4. Get Smash.
5. Get Climb and Charge Jump.
6. Proceed as normal. In the Horu escape, you can't damage boost, because the water is still corrupted and you'd die.

That's a pretty significantly different route, and it's not going to save any time. But it's awesome. I'm going to run this, and it will be called Waterless. Because of course it will.
you could also call it all abilities route Tongue but your choice ^^
Edit history:
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-27 12:19:42 am
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-27 12:19:16 am
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 11:37:14 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 11:35:41 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 11:34:27 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 11:31:06 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 10:59:40 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 08:08:08 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 08:02:15 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 08:01:29 pm
AdamPrimer: 2015-03-26 07:45:56 pm
NOTE: I moved my original post to the bottom of this one as it is old news, but I think having documentation of pulse timings may be relevant one day.

I have formulated a new theory based on a bunch of frame data provided by Vincentx9, DeveilSquirrel and Plague006 in Celestics' twitch chat -- the most important thing is the position of the arrow head.

Things that affect this: Pulse timing, Projectile Position
Potentially also: Ori's position relative to the projectile, how high up the lava flow you are (see plague006's post below, basically it's believed the hitbox is smaller the higher up you are, making it easier)

The pulses only matter if the arrow isn't large enough to get through on your own. If you get the projectile very close but not too close to the lava, and are positioned slightly behind it, you have a much better chance of success.

From all the failures I was sent people either didn't have the projectile close enough to get the arrow head through the lava, or the projectile was so close (touching) the lava, that they died because Bash teleports you into the lava immediately.

All the successes have the arrow head clearly through the lava, and this results from being positioned slightly behind the projectile with the projectile as close as you can get to the lava without touching (or a few pixels from touching to be safe).

Even with this knowledge it seems very hard to do, with DevilSquirrel having the most luck with 6 successes over the course of a few hours.

imgur album of the frames before Bash for successes:

http://imgur.com/a/ZwYnZ

imgur album of the frames before Bash for failures:

http://imgur.com/a/RwCUb

The raw videos I've been working with:

DevilSquirrel:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/50q9aw8ledigmcw/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/18di5hq3305d105/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+2.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ss0apsjlubl8llf/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+3.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/02or5tizfn6urgi/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+4.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/4wpe0p63vbobs76/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+5.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/uwopuj274cvx575/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+6.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wcx4fp41zv91s8c/Ori+R3+Horu+Skip+Fail.mp4

I forget because I'm dumb:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/hnd2e6ldsezgdoz/video+%2802%29.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/download/jxwv96jlcajvq6a/Untitled.mpeg
http://www.mediafire.com/download/06ctd5ev9gso31s/2+fails.mpeg
http://www.mediafire.com/download/48doml3mbr3505y/Horu+Stuff+1.mp4


------------------

Original Post

I am putting forward the theory that Lava Skips are depended on the pulse timing of the Bash aiming arrow, I am working on visual aides for this theory but here I am posting the frame data for the three successful R3 Climbless skips Ikewolf has done. He releases 20-21 frames after the last pulse occurs in all three cases. Note, the frames aren't very exact due to being from a Twitch recording at 30FPS, but they are good enough to start making a case.

[EDIT] Uploaded a frame-by-frame video of the "Bash Pulse": http://webmshare.com/MAg8O

Attempt 1:

First Frame of Aim Start: 11
Last  Frame of Aim Start: 17

21 Frames (1 Frame into pulse)

First Frame of Bash: 35

Attempt 2:

First Frame of Aim Start: 63
Last  Frame of Aim Start: 68

20 Frames.

First Frame of Pulse: 89
Last Frame of Pulse: 104

20 Frames.

First Frame of Bash: 125


Attempt 3:

First Frame of Aim Start: 64
Last  Frame of Aim Start: 69

20 Frames.

First Frame of Pulse: 90
Last Frame of Pulse: 105

21 Frames. (1 frame into pulse)

First Frame of Bash: 127
Edit history:
plague006: 2015-03-26 11:55:31 pm
More R3 skip stuff:
The hitbox for the lava. From a fair bit of testing I believe the hitbox for the lava is very close to: http://imgur.com/JFVwUT4
I made a quick video to summarize as well:

A second video with stomp instead, because feathers are... feathery.
It's worth noting we found out how to get the slime as close to r3 lava as needed, however it is on the uppermost ceiling and since there is a rock lip on the right side of the lava it makes that impossible to use for now. My personal conclusion is that without further understanding of what, where or how to get the i frames of bash to happen, that r3 is a lost cause, since even trying all night to get it consistent we still can't get it repeated. Honestly iceless is a breeze compared to this.

Having said that if we figure out something new r3 skip could easily be a thing.
Edit history:
Evooki: 2015-03-27 03:03:58 am
On a completely different note. A little trick to make blind movement at the doublejump tree easier. Once you got the cutscene skip you move to the left. once you leave the area you can see you doublejump over the gap. then you start spamming your attack button and listen. You should get one whole salve of attacks and a bit of the second. When you cant hear yourself attacking anymore you are in the water. You don't take damage here (I suspect because your hitbox is still in the tree ???) Doublejump as often as you can now and you should be at the part where the spikes are and you need to jump up again.
Quote from irish_00:
okay, guise
I am at loss - 10 hours and just 3-5 successful attemps with "iceless" (new name is definitely needed).
do you have to aim for 1 or 2 ( http://i.imgur.com/WKUNzkl.png ) because I cant even get climb animation at 2. just feel like I cant reach it.
the only times when I actually managed to pull this trick off was when I was going mad and just spammed w/o thinking Shocked

So, I managed iceless twice in a row last night(5 times if you count the whiff where ori walljumps but goes nowhere).
also question about jump spamming - should I start it immediately after the turn or with a small delay?


You aim for track 2.
And I don't actually spam jump at all; I time it. So i dunno, but I'd say with a delay either way; you need to be holding A to get that max jump height; Keep holding until Ori starts to kinda hang in the air.
Also, a setup to almost-consistently at least get Ori to touch the wall; There's a slight groove in the floor around there(just off the left edge of those pictures). Start from there(with the edge of Ori's foot just barely touching the right side of it), run to the right and count 2 footsteps, jumping on the 2nd. The mid-air turn timing has to be muscle-memory'd, but I'm touching the wall 80-90% of the time now and am at the point where I'm consistently saving time with iceless(<45 attempts)


Quote from Evooki:
[doublejump blind movement].


Hm? I just jump the first gap then count 8 footstep noises.
I use a sound cue at the double-jump blind skip. After I clear the first gap I listen closely to the sound of footsteps that Ori makes. As soon as I hear the type of wooden footsteps, which are pretty distinct, I double jump slowly to maximize height and I get it every time. I like to play without music, makes it easier.

I use a similar wooden-step sound cue at the Charge Flame blind skip as well.
Bad news guys, the OOB mils found was found too late. Those are already fixed in the patch (has not been deployed yet).

Turns out there are a lot of places where these things have occurred (many that we haven't found) that can totally happen to normal players as well and brick their game.

This was fixed before we even found it. They don't wanna re-break it obviously so it's gonna stay fixed.

On the good news, the save system was revamped slightly. NOT FIXED just added stuff on top of what's there.

You now have several (3 or 5) back-up saves on top of the most recent one. You can load a back-up (in case you brick) from the title screen menu.

This means you can go for more dangerous stuff during a run that might brick, cause you have back-ups.

Let me know what you guys think about these!
thx for all the great stuff adam ! Ill try to look into it a last time after my route practise. Also i really need to try a HD stream :S
Quote from Mylexsi:
You aim for track 2.
And I don't actually spam jump at all; I time it. So i dunno, but I'd say with a delay either way; you need to be holding A to get that max jump height; Keep holding until Ori starts to kinda hang in the air.
Also, a setup to almost-consistently at least get Ori to touch the wall; There's a slight groove in the floor around there(just off the left edge of those pictures). Start from there(with the edge of Ori's foot just barely touching the right side of it), run to the right and count 2 footsteps, jumping on the 2nd. The mid-air turn timing has to be muscle-memory'd, but I'm touching the wall 80-90% of the time now and am at the point where I'm consistently saving time with iceless(<45 attempts)


thanks, Ill keep on grinding. already got some blisters from controller Roll Eyes
@KOKOStern
How easy is it to navigate to the back-up saves from the title menu ?
Also, are they fixing/nerfing the ability to copy-saves and make "perfect" runs in the leaderboard ?
Will the patch come this month or in April ?
I have sad news, guys. Waterless is, as of now, impossible.

You can get the frog to open up the area before Smash. You can break the water flow. But after that, you're stuck either below another smash ceiling, or you have to swim through corrupted water which you can't possibly survive.

You can barely Bash the frog over towards the smash ceiling, but I just cannot get him to fire high enough to reach it. If it's even possible, it's totally not RTA friendly.
Edit history:
KOKOStern: 2015-03-27 05:57:12 am
Navigating to back-ups shouldn't be any problem. I mean it's on the same save.
They are not changing anything about the save system, only adding. These stuff are still possible, but they are deleting any obscene cases.
The patch is coming soon™ (asap)
Quote from plague006:
More R3 skip stuff:
The hitbox for the lava. From a fair bit of testing I believe the hitbox for the lava is very close to: http://imgur.com/JFVwUT4
I made a quick video to summarize as well:

A second video with stomp instead, because feathers are... feathery.


Okay this explains why i havent gotten the skip single time in 150+ tries this is really useful thanks !
^
About the lava hitboxes - the shorter the hitbox, the better, right ? So you would have better success bashing through the lava more at the top?
Edit history:
Wnbeser: 2015-03-27 09:48:19 am
Okay so i got now first time after 10 minutes of trying so being at the top part of the lava stream is very relevant for success.



Edit: Also did another Horu left 25 run and got 14:58 time which means that i have 1/3 consistency !
Edit 2 Now gotten R3 Skip 4 times total !
Quote from Wnbeser:
Okay so i got now first time after 10 minutes of trying so being at the top part of the lava stream is very relevant for success.

Edit: Also did another Horu left 25 run and got 14:58 time which means that i have 1/3 consistency !
Edit 2 Now gotten R3 Skip 4 times total !

If you remember: at what point did you release the bash button, and were you holding a direction while bashing or did you release (like speed-gliding)