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Edit history:
TSA: 2006-06-18 09:33:56 pm
Retired
I have the right to go back and redo segments at anytime since this is segmented, so long as the "stats" match up at the end of the segment with the next segment in the run.

I'll keep all the criticism.

Good movement to the ladder

- It's better than the TAS.

Urgh this is annoying, running all the way up to the door looked bad, my advice would be to alternate between sidesteps and rolls.

- I supposed I could memorize a set pattent of backwalking+sidehops and optimize it.  And for the record, the TAS side walking = very slow.  It needs to be backwalking and sidehopping, and it is at an "off-angle"

Far too cautious when doing the navi skip at the door, I can walk up to it and nail it about 85% of the time.

- Blame that one slippy analog stick.  But that honestly isn't something I would redo the segment over for.

Try getting closer to the shrub when you deflect the nut, it would save a good second or so.

- I don't get this.  The dialogue is only triggered at a certain "time" after he is hit, folks.  I was there before the trigger could happen.  Think of Super Mario 64 - bowser's keys.  You can get to them early, but it won't be obtainable till a delay is over.  Same here.  Except for position in relation to the door, getting to the "dialogue" was optimal.

This is confusing why did you lock onto the ladder, its much quicker to manually hit it and run to it during the cutscene, plus the bash looked bad.

- I don't get this critique, either.  Pressing and holding "C" after the dialogue quick-aims you forward, hitting Z allows me to MOVE FORWARD while shooting.  Manually would waste time aiming, even if a fraction of a second.  I do not believe this critique is accurate, like the previous one.

That is nothing like the line for landing on the switch or the platform.

- And the time we'd have to waste to align for it is why I do not do that.  I found out holding Z allows for an automatic line up that is quick and close enough.  I seriously doubt anyone will pull off landing on the switch more than 10% of the time without spending time aligning - probably as much time as it took for me to walk to the switch and step on it.  So, the landing on the switch is for a TAS or somebody who wishes to spend a year on this segment or something.  Remember, we have a Super Mario Bros run that is just over 5 mins that takes people forever to shave a second off of, and it is a simple 2D sidescroller.  Please keep that in mind.

I discovered a small trick recently that saves a few fractions of a second and that rolling past the bad and getting hit in order to get a speed boost.

- I totally did not understand what you said here.  And unless it is easy to do, I do not care, at this time, about fractions of a second.  The TAS migh tbe interested now, though.

The lining up was too cautious for the block skip plus its not even necesscary to line up again after you've landed on the block.

- 50% of the time, when I attempted to jump at that ackward angle, Link would "dangle" over the edge rather than jump.  To prove it, I made a "mark" on my controller at the spot I should hold the analog stick.  Not all the time did he jump because I am not precise enough at that angle.  So, this is one part I just got tired of a run ending on.

I think its better to light the torch on the right first instead of doing it last.

- Maybe.  But it reverse the camera angle and it's one less thing I have to worry about.  Plus, doing the right one last leaves you closer to the side of the door you want to be on.

Funny that I've can never seem to pull of the trick on the block first time, which is why I'll push it three times.

- The two push thing is easy.  The jump slash trick is annoying.

Not very good deku room to say the least

- The Deku Scrub Room before Gohma - yeah, I missed that one seed and got hit.  

I fairy certain that Gohma could be done quicker than that as you pause at certain bits for no reason

- The pause at the start is because if you shoot then, you will not hit her eye.  After that, there are no pauses.

It's fine if you keep this segment TSA, but I just remembered you saying that you would like to make a run that'll be very hard to beat... This segment is quite beatable.

- By like 3 of you.  Yeah, I know what I said. I retract it.  So long as it is "mistakeless" in terms of anything that would go wrong in a single-segment run (missing a jump once, getting hit by a boss), that's just totally unacceptable for a segmented run, I'll redo it till I have it.  If it is lacking "perfection", then oh well.  I'd just like to see this run done.  I'd also like to see somebody else, perhaps, make a faster segment and show me what I am doing wrong.  The TAS is not possible to replicate, so I am no longer even watching it.  The last time I used a TAS as a guide, was my 1:39 ALttP run, and it messed me up on several areas.  None of the existing runs have a segment near as good as this one...so...perhaps a video on the N64 of somebody doing the "go to the door" other than the way I did it, or the Deku Scrub Room before Gohma.

That's what I need for help.  Descriptions and trick videos only go so far.  Sometimes it's the parts in between that need attention.

Quote:
If you expected all TAS's regardless of circumstance to be frame advance and pixel perfect, I doubt even the 16-star mario 64 run would be up right now.

As long as a TAS is of very high quality (which this one has been so far) and accomplishes things a normal runner obviously couldn't, I think it should be acceptable. GuanoBowl has come a VERY long way from his earliest submissions and I think this run is a very impressive TAS.

As it is, since this testrun is being done with a very high quality, I vote keep.


- See, not even the TAS is "perfect".  This run doesn't have a solid route yet...the original route I had could be much faster, we just don't know about the day/night situation.  I don't have as much time as I did in college to work on these.  I had 3-4 days of classes and 3-4 day weekends my last 1.5 years of college, when all my runs were done.  I could spend 12-14 hours a day on attempts.

But this, I get maybe an hour or two a day, if that, to do attempts.

And next segment...you guys are going to have to be forgiving.  If you haven't even looked at it yet...it's the hardest segment in the game...
Drunken Fool
Am I the only one who has no idea where to download TSA's runs from?
No the Quail is not riding the Q
Quote:
Am I the only one who has no idea where to download TSA's runs from?

If you don't know you better ask somebody.  Wink
Jealousy™
I shouldn't be one to critique, but TSA, you're my hero, and it disappoints me that a noob like me could do a better deku tree run that the one that's up now.
Any way you could get a video of that, KD? I'd like to see it  Grin
Drunken Fool
Quote:
If you don't know you better ask somebody.  Wink


I thought I was making a subtle attempt at that...
Assuming you mean the segments being done, I would advise you look at page one.
Edit history:
Manocheese: 2006-06-19 01:24:53 am
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
Nice segment. Pretty much everything I was going to say has been said.

Quote:
Segment 4:
1. Get Fairy Ocarina
2. Back walk to Hyrule Castle
3. Enter Temple of Time
4. Go to Hyrule Castle
5. Get Pocket Cucco
6. Wake Talon and Enter Catsle Gardens
7. Pass the Guards
8. Meet Zelda and Learn Zelda's Lullaby
9. Backwalk to Gerudo Valley
10. Cucco Jump over gate
11. Sidehop past gate 
12. Cross the Haunted Wasteland 
13. Enter Spirit Temple
14. Exit immediately
15. Learn Requiem of Spirit
16: Re-enter
17. Save/Quit


Why do you do that? I may have missed something, but it seems that entering the ToT here is pointless. I wish you the best of luck with the gate skip so late in the segment... I would get frustrated even if it was 10 seconds in, but it's like 10 minutes in right now. Then again, I'm not good at it.

Quote:
It's fine if you keep this segment TSA, but I just remembered you saying that you would like to make a run that'll be very hard to beat... This segment is quite beatable. 

- By like 3 of you.  Yeah, I know what I said. I retract it.


Those are 3 people that would be likely to try to beat you, though. Wink Anyway, don't worry about perfecting the segments; they'll be good either way, so don't drive yourself insane.
Retired
Please, feel free to share your videos or make a better run now so I stop wasting my time.  It also does not help when you say "could be improved".  Everything can be improved.  I need specifics, and except for AKA, I haven't been getting that.
Speed is the key.
AKA said eveything I was going to say and a little more, so I figured I didn't need to add my comments... Tongue
Edit history:
MissileWaster: 2006-06-19 08:40:24 am
Quote:
I shouldn't be one to critique, but TSA, you're my hero, and it disappoints me that a noob like me could do a better deku tree run that the one that's up now.

Yeah? Upload it. I thought TSA's was really good (although, I haven't followed the threads much, so I'm not very up to date on shit) and if you can do so much better, I would love to see it. If for any reason you are unable to upload a vid, I would suggest you not brag about it and just accept that the segment is already good, even if there could be improvements.

I was wondering why you didn't do any backwalking or sidehopping or anything of the like. That would get the segment done quicker and would look a bit cooler (going in the right direction without seeing where you are going). And for segment 4, why can't you split it into 2 segments to relieve some of the stress of the difficulty? You don't want to have it going perfect and then have to restart because you miss the cucco jump or something.
Retired
Where could I save/quit that wouldn't put me really far out of the way?  As Young Link, only saving in temples allows you to stay there, anywhere else = warp back to Link's House.

The other thing I am also interested in...

Does SAVE/QUIT rest the time of day?  If so, then why am I doing Hyrule Castle first?

I need to check this out before I do next segment.
Edit history:
YautjaElder: 2006-06-19 09:00:55 am
Speed is the key.
Quote:
Does SAVE/QUIT reset the time of day?  If so, then why am I doing Hyrule Castle first?

No, it doesn't. Wink

If you save at night, it's night when you restart.

There are some exceptions:

-It's always morning when you complete Jabu-Jabu.
-It's always day after learning Zelda's Lullaby.

I think there are more but none that I can think of right now...
Quote:
Where could I save/quit that wouldn't put me really far out of the way?  As Young Link, only saving in temples allows you to stay there, anywhere else = warp back to Link's House.

Oh, Temple of Time save only works for Adult? I thought that walking in and back out would set up a save location. In any case, if it were possible to finish Spirit Temple and then have it be peak of the day, you could just save warp back to Link's house and then go to Hyrule Castle, but timing for that would be pretty much impossible :/ Bah, if you can do segment 4 without breaking stuff and getting all over the news as the most destructive thing ever, then go ahead. I just think that if you could find some way to get it into 2 segments and not be too far out of the way, you should do that.
Edit history:
Acryte: 2006-06-19 11:57:22 am
Zelda Scientist®
Yeah, i didn't understand running to the door over rolling. The deku scrub room, you can go to the side to get more distance but it's not that big a thing. The Z target on the ladder cost a little time, and the hard roll bumping the ladder. Overall, I think you could have caught an earlier platform ride if you picked up all that time there. It's actually easier to wait to shoot the skulltula until you get on the chest. then you can shoot it and align yourself at the same time (this also decreases the odds of missing the jump to the vines). The jumpslash to the switch (or near it) is just as easy and faster if you learn the positioning. you don't need to cup aim it either really. Block message skip could have been a tiny bit faster both before and when jumping to the ledge but it's all good. Once again, I was expecting a roll from torch to torch, but there wasn't one.
Quote:
If somebody can do it ten times in a row, without spending more than 3 seconds aligning on the block each attempt
As for the walltorch trick... the 231 room wasn't near as good as cygnus's one (which takes a little practice there). The ricochet off that wall is interesting, you did it back like I did before I saw cygnus's method... ultimately, if you turn around and do it like that, wait till you fall farther... you can slide through the water, take no damage, and end up moving even farther than normal (you slide out even beyond the water). Otherwise, a simple forwards jumpslash facing the scrubs is cool too, and you avoid that damage. Not really a big deal, though if you ever have a run attempt where you pulled off that damage boost off the wallskulltula thn you should probably be a little wary of your HP since that ground damage could be deadly. All in all though, it was alright. I agree it can be easily improved but to each his own. Though it is one of the hardest segments in the game optimally. Just so many tricks back to back and w/ a high precision set of them at that... and a platform that is basically acting as an ingame timer that you have to be fast enough to get to or else you lose even more time... it's difficult. Against ghoma... I don't know why noone does it... but ghoma takes time to get into position. You can do a deku jumpslash and then slingshot aim to see her eye (or you can jumpslash into the area that loads the cutscene after pivoting a backrun). Then just do the crouch stabs and also get 1 less deku stick (in another run maybe... i don't think you'd want to go back and redo a segment because of 1 deku stick being grabbed  ::)).  Anyways, those are my thoughts.
I like my avatar :)
Quote:
No, it doesn't. Wink

If you save at night, it's night when you restart.

There are some exceptions:

-It's always morning when you complete Jabu-Jabu.
-It's always day after learning Zelda's Lullaby.

I think there are more but none that I can think of right now...

I think, it's always evening, when you're learning the Reqiem of the Spirit.

And it's of course always noon (12:00 pm) when you start a new game. (Link somehow sleeps very long)

It's always night, when Ganondorf chases after Zelda (right before you get the OoT). I'm not 100% sure about this, though.

It's always morning when you beat the Water Temple.

I think it's always night, when you travel to the future the first time. Not sure though.

That's all I know right now. I'm not 100% sure with a few of these, but I'm pretty damn sure with the water temple.
Zelda Rulez!
Here is my rpomised videos:


Useless glitch


This one is cool but I don't think this help you in speedrun :-/


Dark link battle


This is silver gauntles skip without bombs, old Sad

Is anyone discovered anything with that kill KD with bombchus?
Edit history:
mwl: 2006-06-19 07:03:28 pm
There are four points in the run where it makes sense to travel to Hyrule Castle to get the Lullaby:

1. After leaving the Kokiri Forest for the first time
The time will be set to noon when you first enter Hyrule Field, and with any luck you'll make it in the market before sunset. However, with no bombchus to cross the moat, you'll be forced to spend a night on the castle grounds incubating the Weird Egg. You don't get to show any cool tricks and you have to waste time. This is the worst possible option.

2. Leaving from Kokiri Forest after the Silver Gauntlets
It'll always be noon after learning the Requiem of Spirit. When you leave the forest in your next segment, it'll be sunset as you head into Hyrule Field and night long before you arrive at the drawbridge. You'll spend part of a night fighting Stalchildren, but when day comes, you'll be able to do the seamwalk and use your bombchu to cross the moat before nightfall. Still not recommended.

3. Using the owl warp in Lake Hylia after Jabu-Jabu
It'll always be noon after receiving the Zora's Sapphire, and time does not flow in Zora's Fountain or Zora's Domain. So when you exit the portal to Lake Hylia, it'll be midday, and when you arrive at Kaepora Gaebora, it'll be early afternoon. He'll drop you right outside the castle gates, and shortly after entering the castle grounds, the sun will set and you'll miss the crawlspace to the castle courtyard by about five seconds under "perfect play."

4. Using the owl warp in Lake Hylia immediately after the Golden Scale
This is my current proposal on TASvideos, and this plan seems to have the most potential. The time will be sunset when entering Hyrule Field from the forest, sunrise after exiting the Fishing Pond, and early morning or midday at the owl warp. This should provide for enough time to enter the courtyard after doing both the seamwalk and bombchu blast. However, whether this works and how much of a leeway an unassisted runner would have if it does work remain unknown until Guano finishes this part of the run.

So, my recommendation to you, TSA, is to redo the Deku Tree and perhaps segment two until this is determined (which, with any luck, should happen in the next few days.) Learning the Lullaby is the only time-sensitive event in a minimalist run, so once this is resolved, the rest should be smooth-sailing.
No the Quail is not riding the Q
Well if we are going to find improvements we might as well take it step by step.
Here's a video of me doing the beginning of the Deku Tree.
Video

Quote:

Dark link battle

Video
Zelda Rulez!
Quote:
Well if we are going to find improvements we might as well take it step by step.
Here's a video of me doing the beginning of the Deku Tree.
Video

Video


That Dark link video is cool but I think is almost same than my video Grin

I think that dekut tree first part is near perfect, good job Wink
No the Quail is not riding the Q
Quote:
That Dark link video is cool but I think is almost same than my video Grin

Check the 100% topic I posted it the other day. It's no surprise you would find it though since you're a good OoT player! Smiley
As per time getting auto-set during events, it becomes morning when you beat Jabu Jabu, a fact that was quite frustrating when route planning the 100%.
Zelda Rulez!
Quote:
Check the 100% topic I posted it the other day. It's no surpirse you would find it though since you're a good OoT player! Smiley

Thanks Smiley I find it yesterday because now I practising water temple for my run and I think I pretty good water temple player 8)
Edit history:
TSA: 2006-06-19 09:06:21 pm
Retired
I can't watch the Deku Tree video till I get home.  How far does he go, though?

Edit: No way I am doing the second segment over.  The only part that is questionable is the ramp part.  Even then, I got that uber lucky sidehop to nearly enter the shop, which saved two seconds, about the time I lost from the ramp part.  So that evened out.  The only wrong thing, then, is the hole entry.
Edit history:
mwl: 2006-06-19 09:57:30 pm
He shoots a skullwalltula on the vine wall after getting the slingshot and stops there.