Updated - Ocarina of Time - Sub 4 (It may happen)

2005-07-15 05:31:46 am

Retired

Few seconds...

Something I though up...

Kokiri Forest -> Deku Tree -> Hyrule Castle -> Kakariko -> Goron City warp to Lost Woods -> Saria's Song -> Lost Woods warp to Goron City -> Dodongo's Cavern -> Great Fairy -> Zora's River -> Zora's Domain -> Jabu Jabu -> Temple of Time -> Hookshot - Zora's River - Ice Cavern (Set Farore's Wind at entrance befor leaving) - Serenade of Water - Iron Boots - Warp to Water Temple - Scarecrow's Song - Enter Water Temple - Warp back to Ice Cavern -> Forest Temple (skip maze in Forest Meadow) -> Fire Temple (Skip Fire Tunic and Bolero of Fire, have a Fairy in Bottle) -> Warp to Water Temple -> Water Temple -> Gerudo's Fortress -> Requiem of Spirit -> Forest Temple Warp -> Backwalk across Hyrule Field to Kakariko -> Nocturne of Shadow -> Prelude of Light -> Warp Back -> Din's Fire -> Spirit Temple YL -> Warp Back -> Shadow Temple -> Spirit Temple AL -> Temple of Time -> Ganon's Castle

whacko_jacko

2005-07-15 07:24:00 am

you lost me after the young Link stuff...sounds like some pretty major route tweaking though, maybe im an idiot, but why did you enter the water temple and then warp to the Ice cavern? wouldnt it make more sence to get the scarecrow song and immediately warp to ice cavern? or was there a reason for entering? and there it hits me, you have to be in a temple to use farore's wind dont you?

alexpenev

2005-07-15 11:33:45 am

Probably can't use Farore's Wind outside of a temple, so he has to enter one.

Is your usage of the scarecrow song only to skip the bolero cutscene? Does that end up saving much, if anything?

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2005-07-15 04:04:38 pm

2005-07-15 02:55:21 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

Can someone tell me at what point on the bridge the cutscene for bolero of the fire is triggered?
Past the wood sticking out right?

Quote:

How can you survive in the fire temple without a tunic and just one fairy?

It can be done if you pick up more faries meanwhile in the Fire Temple.

zianchu

2005-07-15 03:04:04 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

How can you survive in the fire temple without a tunic and just one fairy?

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2005-07-15 04:01:41 pm

2005-07-15 04:00:35 pm

Retired

Alex - We can shortcut the Sacred Forest Meadow, Skip the Goron Tunic, Skip Bolero of Fire, and having the Scarecrow opens up more sequence breaks in dungeons.

Not every room in the Fire Temple requires the Fire Tunic, only those with lava.

I'm not using this route cuz I am not positive it is faster yet. I'll save it for a day when a TAS for this is possible.

SamSim

Edit history:

SamSim: 2005-07-15 08:34:43 pm

2005-07-15 08:08:01 pm

Quote:

DIN'S FIRE - Temple of Time -> Hookshot - Zora's River - Ice Cavern (Set Farore's Wind at entrance befor leaving) - Serenade of Water - Iron Boots - Warp to Water Temple - Scarecrow's Song - Enter Water Temple - GET LONGSHOT - Warp back to Ice Cavern -> Forest Temple (skip maze in Forest Meadow) -> Fire Temple (Skip Fire Tunic and Bolero of Fire, have a Fairy in Bottle) -> Warp to Water Temple -> Water Temple -> Gerudo's Fortress -> Requiem of Spirit -> Forest Temple Warp -> Backwalk across Hyrule Field to Kakariko -> Nocturne of Shadow -> Prelude of Light -> Warp Back -> ~~Din's Fire~~ -> Spirit Temple YL -> Warp Back -> Shadow Temple -> Spirit Temple AL -> Temple of Time -> Ganon's Castle

Very interesting. Here's my current routes page for those people still playing at home: http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/videogames/oot/routes.php

Obviously there is time lost as well as gained with this route. Getting the Scarecrow's Song takes time (obviously); also climbing all the way to the top of Death Mountain instead of going in through Goron City (it takes about 90 seconds to climb from the Goron City/Lost Woods entrance to the top of Death Mountain Trail, compared with 19 seconds to jump right down, though this doesn't count time to collect the Goron Tunic).

But most important is the Longshot.

You need the Longshot from the Water Temple before the alternate route through Death Mountain Crater is going to work. This is something I've looked at myself: it means doing the Water Temple all the way up to and past Dark Link without using Farore's Wind because that removes your warp point in the Ice Cavern. I don't know what route you'd use but it would certainly lose you time. Not only would your Water Temple route change, you'd also lose the 25-second gain from moving Din's Fire to later in the quest, because you need Din's Fire to beat Dark Link , so you have to get it BEFORE you first reach the Pedestal Of Time as Young Link, as was originally the plan. Not only THAT, you'd take more time to defeat Dark Link compared with using the Megaton Hammer. Plus, he'd require six hits to beat, which is more magic than you can carry, so you'd need to obtain a Green Potion for 30 rupees from Hyrule Market as Young Link at around the same time as you're getting Din's Fire, wasting still further time.

I still believe it might be possible to salvage some time with this plan, but certainly not as much as it first appears. Sorry.

HOWEVER... Separating the Nocturne Of Shadow and the Shadow Temple into two segments is a VERY good idea. More creativity along these lines would be good. I'm going to factor this into my calculations and recalculate all the routes. I'm almost positive it'll save some time.

(Aside: One bottled fairy, seven heart containers (3+4) and full health gives you 112 seconds' grace, or roughly one second of error margin when fighting Volvagia, by my calculations:
http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/videogames/oot/minimal.html )

[quote][b]DIN'S FIRE[/b] - Temple of Time -> Hookshot - Zora's River - Ice Cavern (Set Farore's Wind at entrance befor leaving) - Serenade of Water - Iron Boots - Warp to Water Temple - Scarecrow's Song - Enter Water Temple - [b]GET LONGSHOT[/b] - Warp back to Ice Cavern -> Forest Temple (skip maze in Forest Meadow) -> Fire Temple (Skip Fire Tunic and Bolero of Fire, have a Fairy in Bottle) -> Warp to Water Temple -> Water Temple -> Gerudo's Fortress -> Requiem of Spirit -> Forest Temple Warp -> Backwalk across Hyrule Field to Kakariko -> Nocturne of Shadow -> Prelude of Light -> Warp Back -> [s]Din's Fire[/s] -> Spirit Temple YL -> Warp Back -> Shadow Temple -> Spirit Temple AL -> Temple of Time -> Ganon's Castle[/quote]

Very interesting. Here's my current routes page for those people still playing at home: http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/videogames/oot/routes.php

Obviously there is time lost as well as gained with this route. Getting the Scarecrow's Song takes time (obviously); also climbing all the way to the top of Death Mountain instead of going in through Goron City (it takes about 90 seconds to climb from the Goron City/Lost Woods entrance to the top of Death Mountain Trail, compared with 19 seconds to jump right down, though this doesn't count time to collect the Goron Tunic).

But most important is the Longshot.

You need the Longshot from the Water Temple before the alternate route through Death Mountain Crater is going to work. This is something I've looked at myself: it means doing the Water Temple all the way up to and past Dark Link [i]without using Farore's Wind[/i] because that removes your warp point in the Ice Cavern. I don't know what route you'd use but it would certainly lose you time. Not only would your Water Temple route change, you'd also lose the 25-second gain from moving Din's Fire to later in the quest, because you need Din's Fire to beat Dark Link , so you have to get it BEFORE you first reach the Pedestal Of Time as Young Link, as was originally the plan. Not only THAT, you'd take more time to defeat Dark Link compared with using the Megaton Hammer. Plus, he'd require six hits to beat, which is more magic than you can carry, so you'd need to obtain a Green Potion for 30 rupees from Hyrule Market as Young Link at around the same time as you're getting Din's Fire, wasting still further time.

I still believe it might be possible to salvage some time with this plan, but certainly not as much as it first appears. Sorry.

HOWEVER... Separating the Nocturne Of Shadow and the Shadow Temple into two segments is a VERY good idea. More creativity along these lines would be good. I'm going to factor this into my calculations and recalculate all the routes. I'm almost positive it'll save some time.

(Aside: One bottled fairy, seven heart containers (3+4) and full health gives you 112 seconds' grace, or roughly one second of error margin when fighting Volvagia, by my calculations:
http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/videogames/oot/minimal.html )

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2005-07-15 10:19:36 pm

2005-07-15 08:20:16 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

After becoming an Adult
Items
Bomb
Bombchu
Boomerang
1 Bottle
Deku Nut
Deku Shield
Deku stick
Dins Fire
Fairy Bow
~~Fairy Ocarina~~
Fairy Slingshot
Farore’s Wind
Fire Arrow
Gold Scale
Golden Gauntlets
Goron Bracelet
Goron Tunic
Hookshot1
Hover boots
Hylian Shield
Ice arrow
Iron Boots
Kokiri Sword
Lens of Truth
Light Arrow
Magic Beans
Megaton Hammer
Mirror Shield
Nayru’s Love
Silver Gauntlets
Silver Scale
Zora Tunic

bleh...Here is a nice item list for now... Shocked

Need to start more practice....

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2005-07-15 09:03:33 pm

2005-07-15 09:02:42 pm

Retired

Oh wow...

You haven't seen my Dark Link pwnage video without anything but a sword, huh?

This is why I am anxious to help make a TAS of this game...because there is going to be so much sick tricks...

There is a WINDOW of about a few frames in the fight sequence with Dark Link when he mimics you that he BREAKS the mimic sequence slightly so you can HIT him if you can hit B quick enough at the right time.

Do not Z-target. Swing your sword to do a three swing combo...when Dark Link does the 3rd leg of it, you can hit him. Eh, I'll try to find the video or make another. But I seriously, seriously doubt many people could pull this off...and in a speed run at this late into the run...it's pretty ballsy...I mean, it has to be done RIGHT or you will just begin to accumulate lost time and you probably will die before winning.

Also - up to Dark Link - when do we need to use Farore's Wind besides getting back to the first room of the temple? Isn't the best route now:

Farore's Wind
Lower Water
Get First Key
Farore's Wind warp back to start
Set Farore's Wind
Enter Back Door to middle area
Raise Water
Get Key from chest behind bombable wall
Farore's Wind warp back to star
Set Farore's Wind
Hook ascent to 3F
Jump to ledge
Raise Water
Enter 3F door and set Farore's Wind
Defeat Dark Link
Get Longshot
Get two keys
Farore's Wind back
Set Farore's Wind upon exiting room
Get Big Key
Warp Back
Morpha Battle

So couldn't we substitute each Farore's Wind use with Hook ascents? They're slower, but time would be made up?

Oh wow...

:P

You haven't seen my Dark Link pwnage video without anything but a sword, huh?

This is why I am anxious to help make a TAS of this game...because there is going to be so much sick tricks...

There is a WINDOW of about a few frames in the fight sequence with Dark Link when he mimics you that he BREAKS the mimic sequence slightly so you can HIT him if you can hit B quick enough at the right time.

Do not Z-target.  Swing your sword to do a three swing combo...when Dark Link does the 3rd leg of it, you can hit him.  Eh, I'll try to find the video or make another.  But I seriously, seriously doubt many people could pull this off...and in a speed run at this late into the run...it's pretty ballsy...I mean, it has to be done RIGHT or you will just begin to accumulate lost time and you probably will die before winning.

Also - up to Dark Link - when do we need to use Farore's Wind besides getting back to the first room of the temple?  Isn't the best route now:

Farore's Wind
Lower Water
Get First Key
Farore's Wind warp back to start
Set Farore's Wind
Enter Back Door to middle area
Raise Water
Get Key from chest behind bombable wall
Farore's Wind warp back to star
Set Farore's Wind
Hook ascent to 3F
Jump to ledge
Raise Water 
Enter 3F door and set Farore's Wind
Defeat Dark Link
Get Longshot
Get two keys
Farore's Wind back
Set Farore's Wind upon exiting room
Get Big Key
Warp Back
Morpha Battle

So couldn't we substitute each Farore's Wind use with Hook ascents? They're slower, but time would be made up?

whacko_jacko

Edit history:

whacko_jacko: 2005-07-15 11:11:51 pm

2005-07-15 11:11:16 pm

i remember my first time going through this game doing the water temple before fire and not even knowing about Din's fire (i found it later though, thank god or i would have spent hours shooting those torches with fire arrows, only to be unsuccesful)

Anyway, i beat him with just a sword, it was hard, and it took me like 15 tries, this was also before i knew you could catch faries. I was always like, how could they put something this hard in a game? but after a ton of deaths i finally got it, so oh well.

If your gonna do that speedrun style if you find this route to be quicker, then wow good luck thats crazy. Somebody make a Re-recording/slowdown/frameadvance 64 emulator already...

SamSim

Edit history:

SamSim: 2005-07-16 01:46:39 am

2005-07-16 01:43:30 am

I'd have to think about it. I can't remember exactly what the current Water Temple route is and I'm not sure if it's changed at all since we came up with it two or three months ago. But I was pretty sure FW was used to warp to *underneath* the bombable wall Small Key...

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2005-07-16 09:08:44 pm

2005-07-16 02:47:03 am

No the Quail is not riding the Q

You haven't seen my Dark Link pwnage video without anything but a sword, huh?

There are still things I have not tried or have yet to pwn.

Sam your right about that well your not in the room but you know what it is.

Randomnashishy: at the store I saw Cans sold as six packs it was funny for some reason. okay....200....

TSA

2005-07-16 04:25:14 am

Retired

Oh, you mean set warp when you drop after lowering water when you exit Key room door - then hookascent up the middle area, raise water, warp back?

SamSim

2005-07-17 10:40:15 pm

Yeah, exactly right.

TSA

2005-07-17 10:59:09 pm

Retired

Yeah, that's not the best way. The route I wrote out is the fastest for the Water Temple.

I'm beating it in 15 mins now...

And the strategy for beating Dark Link for beginners with Sword?

Z-Target, hold "Back" while swinging as fast as you can. You'll land blows everytime Dark Link stutters his attack.

My way - Get a hit on him without Z-targeting by timing your swings to begin at a certain distance away
as you move in with the combo, the last blow will hit Dark Link. Turn around and begin your 3 swing combo again, and it will land the 3rd strike. Repeat this process.

This should make Doing Water Temple after Forest plausible, leaving Fire Temple for last to skip Bolero and Fire Tunic.

So, best Adult Link route:

Get Hookshot
Leave Kakariko and go to Zora's River
Ride leaf to top
Ice Cavern
Set Farore's Wind
Get Iron Boots
Serenade of Water learned
Warp to Lake Hylia
Get Scarecrow's Song
Enter Water Temple
Warp back to Ice Cavern
Warp to Lost Woods via River
Sacred Forest Meadow
Forest Temple
Lost Woods Warp to Goron City
Climb up to Death Mountain Crater
Fire Temple
Warp to Lake Hylia
Water Temple
Run to Gerudo's Fortress
Haunted Wasteland
Requiem of Spirit learned
Warp to Fire Temple
Nocturne of Shadow learned
Return to Temple of Time
Prelude of Light learned
Warp back in time
Din's Fire
Warp to Spirit Temple
Spirit Temple
Warp to Temple of Time
Warp forward in time
Warp to Shadow Temple
Shadow Temple
Warp to Spirit Temlpe
Spirit Temple
Warp to Temple of Time
Ganon's Castle

Yeah, that's not the best way.  The route I wrote out is the fastest for the Water Temple.

I'm beating it in 15 mins now...

And the strategy for beating Dark Link for beginners with Sword?

Z-Target, hold "Back" while swinging as fast as you can.  You'll land blows everytime Dark Link stutters his attack.

My way - Get a hit on him without Z-targeting by timing your swings to begin at a certain distance away
as you move in with the combo, the last blow will hit Dark Link.  Turn around and begin your 3 swing combo again, and it will land the 3rd strike.  Repeat this process.

This should make Doing Water Temple after Forest plausible, leaving Fire Temple for last to skip Bolero and Fire Tunic.

So, best Adult Link route:

Get Hookshot
Leave Kakariko and go to Zora's River
Ride leaf to top
Ice Cavern
Set Farore's Wind
Get Iron Boots
Serenade of Water learned
Warp to Lake Hylia
Get Scarecrow's Song
Enter Water Temple
Warp back to Ice Cavern
Warp to Lost Woods via River
Sacred Forest Meadow
Forest Temple
Lost Woods Warp to Goron City
Climb up to Death Mountain Crater
Fire Temple
Warp to Lake Hylia
Water Temple
Run to Gerudo's Fortress
Haunted Wasteland
Requiem of Spirit learned
Warp to Fire Temple
Nocturne of Shadow learned
Return to Temple of Time
Prelude of Light learned
Warp back in time
Din's Fire
Warp to Spirit Temple
Spirit Temple
Warp to Temple of Time
Warp forward in time
Warp to Shadow Temple
Shadow Temple
Warp to Spirit Temlpe
Spirit Temple
Warp to Temple of Time
Ganon's Castle

whacko_jacko

2005-07-18 03:27:12 am

So the best route isnt to do fire temple after forrest and water? and i thought you said you would skip Bolero of Fire, so how are you warping to the fire temple?

Maybe im getting 2 routes mixed up here.

Zurreco

2005-07-18 03:43:22 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Rather than warp back to the Ice Cavern and use the river warp to the woods -> fire temple, wouldn't it be faster to just take the lake hylia underwater passage to the woods? Or is that the same thing?

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2005-07-18 05:20:01 am

2005-07-18 05:16:28 am

Retired

Jammer - Oh, post getting to Spirit Temple? Warp back to Forest Temple, cross Sacred Forest Meadow on top, exit Lost Woods, Exit Kokiri Forest, Go to Hyrule Field, then Back walk from there...

Zurreco - Not possible, that passage is blocked by ice.

Zurreco

2005-07-18 06:07:36 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Doesn't that ice melt once Morpha is killed?

soteos

2005-07-18 06:11:05 am

The ice doesn't melt, and the zoras are the only ones that get screwed over in the end (how tragic). On the plus side, there's 2000 pounds of frozen fish under there. Who wants seafood?

whacko_jacko

2005-07-18 07:31:27 am

I guess im still confused, i thought you said earlier that the best way would be to do forrest-water-fire because of the way you do dark link and then the plus side would be to skip the bolero of fire and the fire tunic, but that isnt what was in that route you wrote there...so maybe im getting that route mixed with other ideas.

The other thing i was saying is that if you skipped the bolero of fire, you wouldnt be able to warp to the fire temple...unless there is a hole type warp like the lost woods-goron city warp ive never seen or heard of, but again i am probably getting 2 routes mixed up so if i am...just call me stupid and i will go back and figure it out Wink

Fox

2005-07-18 08:37:30 am

Here, and there... and everywhere!

Quote:

The other thing i was saying is that if you skipped the bolero of fire, you wouldnt be able to warp to the fire temple...unless there is a hole type warp like the lost woods-goron city warp ive never seen or heard of, but again i am probably getting 2 routes mixed up so if i am...just call me stupid and i will go back and figure it out Wink

I'm assuming he meant to write that after the Requiem of Spirit, he'd warp back to the Forest Temple, not the Fire. He can't warp back to Fire, as he doesn't have the Bolero of Fire, and even if there's some way he could leave Farore's Wind in the Fire Temple (and there isn't if he wants a good time), he'd have to go through the Bolero of Fire cutscene to exit the crater. He said Forest before anyway, so I assume that was a mistake.

What I'm worried about is the longshot. As was said, you need the longshot to access the Fire Temple without getting the Bolero of Fire or Goron Tunic. So, you need to do that in the Water Temple when you first go, while preserving the Farore's Wind warp in the Ice Cavern. This is all fine, but the first time you enter the Water Temple, when you plan to get the Longshot, you haven't yet played the Forest Temple. That means no bow. No bow means you simply can't do it. Let's assume for a second, though, that you get Din's Fire early, sacrificing time. You could use it to light the torches and get the first key, and you could use it to enter the central pillar and raise the water. But you still have an arrow switch in the waterway after Dark Link. You would have to skip this part for later, meaning coming back AFTER you get the bow and retracing your steps to Dark Link. All in all, it takes way too much time.

[quote]The other thing i was saying is that if you skipped the bolero of fire, you wouldnt be able to warp to the fire temple...unless there is a hole type warp like the lost woods-goron city warp ive never seen or heard of, but again i am probably getting 2 routes mixed up so if i am...just call me stupid and i will go back and figure it out  ;)[/quote]

I'm assuming he meant to write that after the Requiem of Spirit, he'd warp back to the Forest Temple, not the Fire.  He can't warp back to Fire, as he doesn't have the Bolero of Fire, and even if there's some way he could leave Farore's Wind in the Fire Temple (and there isn't if he wants a good time), he'd have to go through the Bolero of Fire cutscene to exit the crater.  He said Forest before anyway, so I assume that was a mistake.

What I'm worried about is the longshot.  As was said, you need the longshot to access the Fire Temple without getting the Bolero of Fire or Goron Tunic.  So, you need to do that in the Water Temple when you first go, while preserving the Farore's Wind warp in the Ice Cavern.  This is all fine, but the first time you enter the Water Temple, when you plan to get the Longshot, you haven't yet played the Forest Temple.  That means no bow.  No bow means you simply can't do it.  Let's assume for a second, though, that you get Din's Fire early, sacrificing time.  You could use it to light the torches and get the first key, and you could use it to enter the central pillar and raise the water.  But you still have an arrow switch in the waterway after Dark Link.  You would have to skip this part for later, meaning coming back AFTER you get the bow and retracing your steps to Dark Link.  All in all, it takes way too much time.

AngerFist

2005-07-18 09:25:46 am

Angered Me, You have!

Quote:

I'm beating it in 15 mins now...

Can we then expect a sub 4:30 run? Grin

TSA

2005-07-18 03:41:02 pm

Retired

Dream on.

As for the Water Temple - You can use three "warp outsides" in place of Farore's Wind to beat it...though warping outside is slightly longer.

whacko_jacko

2005-07-18 06:20:06 pm

Ok, but you meant warp to Forrest temple, not Fire temple, right? Because you typed warp to fire temple after learning the requiem of spirit.