Night World - December 13, 2022

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2022-12-13 10:12:31 am

SDAVerification: 2022-12-06 08:39:25 am

2022-11-28 09:51:15 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Night World () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment]

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to 'Lum'!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2022-11-28 09:51:15 am

Run Information

Night World () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/nightworld-20221127/

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). If you wish to remain anonymous, you can also send a pm with your reply to 'sdaverification' (please state clearly in that case which run you have verified). This is not a contest where the majority wins - Each verification will be judged on its content.

SDAVerification

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2022-11-28 09:54:37 am

2022-11-28 09:54:22 am

Live recording: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1664557141

Lum

Edit history:

Lum: 2022-11-28 10:40:06 am

Lum: 2022-11-28 10:39:56 am

Lum: 2022-11-28 10:35:59 am

2022-11-28 10:35:10 am

Just to add that this is a BBC Micro game, and pretty obscure, there's not much of use on Youtube but a search for "Night World BBC Micro" will find you a few video from people other than me, mostly from retro streamers who can't figure out how to play it!
The only other recorded run to completion I know of requires a specific emulator and a copy of the game in order to play. It's a 15 minute tool-assisted 100% run made to prove that the game is actually even possible!

The first known solution to this game and details were posted on the Stardot forums in 2020:
More technical details, disassembly and eventual work on a remastered version

I am using the original 1985 release not the remastered version(s) from that thread, but have actively participated in both threads.

Just to add that this is a BBC Micro game, and pretty obscure, there's not much of use on Youtube but a search for "Night World BBC Micro" will find you a few video from people other than me, mostly from retro streamers who can't figure out how to play it!
The only other [URL=https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=356705#p356705]recorded run to completion[/url] I know of requires a specific emulator and a copy of the game in order to play. It's a 15 minute tool-assisted 100% run made to prove that the game is actually even possible!

The [URL=https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18415]first known solution to this game[/url] and details were posted on the Stardot forums in 2020: 
[URL=https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24857]More technical details, disassembly and eventual work on a remastered version[/url]

I am using the [URL=http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=211]original 1985 release[/url] not the remastered version(s) from that thread, but have actively participated in both threads.

LotBlind

2022-12-02 03:10:11 pm

(convenience link of the live run https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1664557141)

Well, I'm very keen to talk about this game on the front page so fingers crossed nothing constipates its passage onto there. I'm not saying it's shit. I'm very much expecting the opposite! Thanks in advance for the editor fodder you provided with those links.

I'll properly review the material within a few days.

Lum

2022-12-03 11:26:30 am

I'm going to try for a better run tomorrow, I think I can shave a couple of seconds off the any% and I'd really like a run that hits all three frame perfect jumps in the Prism 2 room, even though there's no overall time loss due to the timing of exiting the prism 4 room. I'm not sure how things work if you beat your run while it's still in the submission queue as I'm still a n00b to this site even though I've been reading it for over a decade Cheesy

I'm also hoping to get a 100% run submitted. I came 1s short of my previous run on an emulator due to a daft mistake near the end, so wasn't happy with it, and obviously I'm not submitting the emulator run here.
I guess I should record an audio commentary too

LotBlind

2022-12-03 12:44:05 pm

Okay, sounds like you're not quite happy with it after all just yet? In that case all you have to do is use the same link to upload the improved run later and someone will make sure it ends up visible here. Do you think you'd like any feedback on this current one or is it nearly TAS-perfect as it is?

Lum

Edit history:

Lum: 2022-12-03 01:15:45 pm

Lum: 2022-12-03 01:09:27 pm

Lum: 2022-12-03 01:04:21 pm

2022-12-03 01:03:10 pm

There is always room for improvements, and I have ideas to try based off some stuff I found after submission. The thing with the prism 2 room is it didn't actually cost me any time, so I don't know if it matters. Is it better to have a mistake, recover and hit the timing point anyway, or to arrive early and then stand still for 5-10 secs before exiting the prism 4 room? Especially given this is a game where 99% of run attempts end in either death or softlock due to bugs.

Again, not sure how any of this works here. Always up for feedback though

ktwo

2022-12-03 04:11:49 pm

This kind of submission has my full support. Great to see old-school computers getting some love!

I browsed through the threads on the stardot forum. Interesting how a game can be so obscure/cryptic that there was no evidence of having been completed until very well advanced into the internet era. Anyways, I've watched the uploaded run (so at the time of writing, version 1), which raised some questions. I loaded up the game in an emulator and could then answer some of the basic questions about the game mechanics myself. I'm still left with the following comments/questions (mainly because I didn't play beyond the first few rooms):

* Thanks for the run comments. Very helpful to follow what's going on. Two comments though. I suggest linking to some of the game resources from the run comments. Once the run gets published, people will probably not find their way to the verification thread and the links here, but will likely only see the run comments. My other comment is if it's not better to use the room naming convention from the map in the forum thread? In my points below, I will most of the time use those room names instead to avoid any risk of confusion regarding which room I'm talking about.

* Room H: If the first jump to the right after collecting the prism is tricky, why not drop straight down instead? It doesn't sound like there is any time loss because of the sun clock cycle, so might just as well play as consistently as possible instead of taking additional risks which will anyways only result in additional waiting if successful.

* Room A: What happens if you jump at 3:14 instead of dropping straight down?

* Room M: Is it not better to walk a few steps down before jumping if jumping from the first step is so precise?

* In the comments for "room 18" (room M), you say "you cannon leave this room until the sun clock is past the prism". The sun clock triggers the transformation between human and beast, but what's the connection between that and the prisms?

* Room L: What happens if you jump from the pillar with the left statue to the left? Do you get stuck on the lower platform or could you continue walking to the left and jump to the exit (as a human)?

* Room K: No way to exit top left by first falling down to the floor? Like wall jumping back and forth or so on the left side?

* Room I: What happens if you continue walking to the left at 5:31? You get stuck on a platform? If possible, looks like a faster way to get down than jumping up to the next room.

Since the game seems very cycle-based right up until the end, I'm curious where you see several seconds of possible improvements. Watching the run, reading the comments and checking the map, there wasn't anything that stood out to me as questionable regarding the overall route. As for the room solutions, I have a feeling my questions above won't lead to any time saves, but would still be interesting to know the answers to better understand the game mechanics.

Mistakes that don't end up costing any time are not counted against a speedrun on SDA. So if you manage to pull off a cleaner run that still ends up being slower, the "sloppy" and fast run will be the accepted one.

This kind of submission has my full support. Great to see old-school computers getting some love!

I browsed through the threads on the stardot forum. Interesting how a game can be so obscure/cryptic that there was no evidence of having been completed until very well advanced into the internet era. Anyways, I've watched the uploaded run (so at the time of writing, version 1), which raised some questions. I loaded up the game in an emulator and could then answer some of the basic questions about the game mechanics myself. I'm still left with the following comments/questions (mainly because I didn't play beyond the first few rooms):

* Thanks for the run comments. Very helpful to follow what's going on. Two comments though. I suggest linking to some of the game resources from the run comments. Once the run gets published, people will probably not find their way to the verification thread and the links here, but will likely only see the run comments. My other comment is if it's not better to use the room naming convention from the map in the forum thread? In my points below, I will most of the time use those room names instead to avoid any risk of confusion regarding which room I'm talking about.

* Room H: If the first jump to the right after collecting the prism is tricky, why not drop straight down instead? It doesn't sound like there is any time loss because of the sun clock cycle, so might just as well play as consistently as possible instead of taking additional risks which will anyways only result in additional waiting if successful.

* Room A: What happens if you jump at 3:14 instead of dropping straight down?

* Room M: Is it not better to walk a few steps down before jumping if jumping from the first step is so precise?

* In the comments for "room 18" (room M), you say "you cannon leave this room until the sun clock is past the prism". The sun clock triggers the transformation between human and beast, but what's the connection between that and the prisms?

* Room L: What happens if you jump from the pillar with the left statue to the left? Do you get stuck on the lower platform or could you continue walking to the left and jump to the exit (as a human)?

* Room K: No way to exit top left by first falling down to the floor? Like wall jumping back and forth or so on the left side?

* Room I: What happens if you continue walking to the left at 5:31? You get stuck on a platform? If possible, looks like a faster way to get down than jumping up to the next room.

Since the game seems very cycle-based right up until the end, I'm curious where you see several seconds of possible improvements. Watching the run, reading the comments and checking the map, there wasn't anything that stood out to me as questionable regarding the overall route. As for the room solutions, I have a feeling my questions above won't lead to any time saves, but would still be interesting to know the answers to better understand the game mechanics.

Mistakes that don't end up costing any time are not counted against a speedrun on SDA. So if you manage to pull off a cleaner run that still ends up being slower, the "sloppy" and fast run will be the accepted one.

Lum

Edit history:

Lum: 2022-12-04 02:03:07 pm

Lum: 2022-12-04 01:56:16 pm

Lum: 2022-12-04 01:55:42 pm

2022-12-04 01:55:19 pm

Quote:

* Thanks for the run comments. Very helpful to follow what's going on. Two comments though. I suggest linking to some of the game resources from the run comments. Once the run gets published, people will probably not find their way to the verification thread and the links here, but will likely only see the run comments. My other comment is if it's not better to use the room naming convention from the map in the forum thread? In my points below, I will most of the time use those room names instead to avoid any risk of confusion regarding which room I'm talking about.

My main reason for not using the naming scheme is because I assume that someone reading it won't be looking at the map, so a simple count is easier, especially as some rooms are revisited (in a 100% run, all rooms but two are visited at least twice)

* Room A: What happens if you jump at 3:14 instead of dropping straight down?
I'll have to re-test, but the big problem is gargoyle jumps to a height of 6 or 7 blocks, but fall damage still occurs after 3.5 blocks. You might also get stuck in the wall but I can't remember

* Room M: Is it not better to walk a few steps down before jumping if jumping from the first step is so precise?
If you mean upon entering, I normally do, however it doesn't matter too much as you need to get the bat to a lower position or it will ruin your day when trying to enter the central tunnel, so I end up standing two steps down until the bat has reached my height
If you mean the jump from the centre tunnel to the gargoyle, it's actually not precise, you just hold jump and as soon as your head is clear you jump (although the sound effect for a failed jump causes slowdown). As the human you make it, but as the gargoyle you exit the room too high and then softlock yourself in the next room by getting stuck in the wall

* In the comments for "room 18" (room M), you say "you cannon leave this room until the sun clock is past the prism". The sun clock triggers the transformation between human and beast, but what's the connection between that and the prisms?

The issue is timing in the next room. To exit by jumping off the back of the harpy you have to be the gargoyle. I use the prism purely as a visual indicator... once past this point if I change room, I will transform to gargoyle at or before the point I need the jump height to do the harpy bounce. If I leave before then I will still be human, and will have to wait for another back&forth cycle of the harpy, losing time (plus managing its height is a pain)

* Room L: What happens if you jump from the pillar with the left statue to the left? Do you get stuck on the lower platform or could you continue walking to the left and jump to the exit (as a human)?
Softlock. Once you are on the lower platform, the collision detection being either side of your hat prevents you from being able to continue left. If you're lucky you'll be able to walk right, but mostly you get stuck

* Room K: No way to exit top left by first falling down to the floor? Like wall jumping back and forth or so on the left side?
You could drop to the floor, but then you'd have to vertical walljump up the second row of blocks. Two blocks per jump even as the gargoyle, which would be really slow with a 7 block jump height... assuming it even decides to work, which it often does not

* Room I: What happens if you continue walking to the left at 5:31? You get stuck on a platform? If possible, looks like a faster way to get down than jumping up to the next room.
More fall damage than the route I took. At this point it's a judgement call based on remaining health... many runs have been killed by that fall Cheesy

Quote:

Since the game seems very cycle-based right up until the end, I'm curious where you see several seconds of possible improvements.

Main improvements I can see are the exact timing of that final jump out of Room M, and trying to preserve enough health to survive the Room I fall.

[Quote]* Thanks for the run comments. Very helpful to follow what's going on. Two comments though. I suggest linking to some of the game resources from the run comments. Once the run gets published, people will probably not find their way to the verification thread and the links here, but will likely only see the run comments. My other comment is if it's not better to use the room naming convention from the map in the forum thread? In my points below, I will most of the time use those room names instead to avoid any risk of confusion regarding which room I'm talking about.[/quote]

My main reason for not using the naming scheme is because I assume that someone reading it won't be looking at the map, so a simple count is easier, especially as some rooms are revisited (in a 100% run, all rooms but two are visited at least twice)

* Room A: What happens if you jump at 3:14 instead of dropping straight down?
I'll have to re-test, but the big problem is gargoyle jumps to a height of 6 or 7 blocks, but fall damage still occurs after 3.5 blocks. You might also get stuck in the wall but I can't remember

* Room M: Is it not better to walk a few steps down before jumping if jumping from the first step is so precise?
If you mean upon entering, I normally do, however it doesn't matter too much as you need to get the bat to a lower position or it will ruin your day when trying to enter the central tunnel, so I end up standing two steps down until the bat has reached my height
If you mean the jump from the centre tunnel to the gargoyle, it's actually not precise, you just hold jump and as soon as your head is clear you jump (although the sound effect for a failed jump causes slowdown). As the human you make it, but as the gargoyle you exit the room too high and then softlock yourself in the next room by getting stuck in the wall

* In the comments for "room 18" (room M), you say "you cannon leave this room until the sun clock is past the prism". The sun clock triggers the transformation between human and beast, but what's the connection between that and the prisms?

The issue is timing in the next room. To exit by jumping off the back of the harpy you have to be the gargoyle. I use the prism purely as a visual indicator... once past this point if I change room, I will transform to gargoyle at or before the point I need the jump height to do the harpy bounce. If I leave before then I will still be human, and will have to wait for another back&forth cycle of the harpy, losing time (plus managing its height is a pain)

* Room L: What happens if you jump from the pillar with the left statue to the left? Do you get stuck on the lower platform or could you continue walking to the left and jump to the exit (as a human)?
Softlock. Once you are on the lower platform, the collision detection being either side of your hat prevents you from being able to continue left. If you're lucky you'll be able to walk right, but mostly you get stuck

* Room K: No way to exit top left by first falling down to the floor? Like wall jumping back and forth or so on the left side?
You could drop to the floor, but then you'd have to vertical walljump up the second row of blocks. Two blocks per jump even as the gargoyle, which would be really slow with a 7 block jump height... assuming it even decides to work, which it often does not

* Room I: What happens if you continue walking to the left at 5:31? You get stuck on a platform? If possible, looks like a faster way to get down than jumping up to the next room.
More fall damage than the route I took. At this point it's a judgement call based on remaining health... many runs have been killed by that fall :D

[quote]Since the game seems very cycle-based right up until the end, I'm curious where you see several seconds of possible improvements.[/quote]
Main improvements I can see are the exact timing of that final jump out of Room M, and trying to preserve enough health to survive the Room I fall.

ktwo

2022-12-05 01:56:00 am

Thanks for addressing all of my comments. All clear!

As for the remaining improvements, I can't really picture what you'd like to change in room M. But if the alternative I described in room I is the same one you're talking about, it looks to me like at least that could be a time save of two or so seconds. You seemed to complete the first version of the run fairly quickly, so if it's doable to drop down in room I instead of jumping back up to room A, I would agree it's worth doing more attempts to see if you could get a run with that drop. Especially considering that with the routing being used, all completed runs will essentially have the same time with only minor differences from lag.

Lum

Edit history:

Lum: 2022-12-05 05:09:52 pm

Lum: 2022-12-05 03:33:58 pm

2022-12-05 03:20:40 pm

Ok so I shaved 5s off the any% run and got a cleaner run: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1671392681 and uploaded as v2 to this run.

I also got 14s off the (emulated) WR for 100%. I think I need to upload that as a separate run?

I also retested your question:

* Room A: What happens if you jump at 3:14 instead of dropping straight down?
You hit the statue, still fall two blocks, take fall damage and then have to walk right a bit before you can jump into the statue

ktwo

2022-12-06 11:39:34 am

The new run (v2) looks great. I have trouble seeing how the time could go much lower than this. Seems like an improvement from here on would require a new discovery, some way to circumvent the route restrictions imposed by the human/beast cycles or similar.

ACCEPT!

Lum

2022-12-06 12:09:19 pm

Yay! an accept!

I guess I should start recording an audio commentary for it?

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2022-12-06 01:30:52 pm

2022-12-06 01:30:04 pm

The final verdict comes in on the date mentioned in the headline. That's just ktwo's opinion. It's likely to correspond with the final verdict though. (You can check out the link in the second post that says "verification guidelines" for more on how this works)

Let me take a look now as well...

A/V: 5:40 - Could probably cut the extra footage past this point? We can do that too. I had a little corruption at 5:06 but if ktwo didn't see it, it's probably my crappy internet again.

Well, this looks like one of those times where the mechanics are so weird it's more or less impossible to confirm with the naked eye the run is really optimized. Your run comments show a lot of details even though I think they're the v. 1 run notes? And the first what 75% of the run hardly mean a thing apparently? May I suggest adding in the color palette of each room you're referencing in them to make it easier to follow them?

I don't see obvious mistakes. There's only a little health left in the end. Do you die as soon as it moves left one more step?

Feel free to answer my questions but I think I'm ready to give this an

accept

The final verdict comes in on the date mentioned in the headline. That's just ktwo's opinion. It's likely to correspond with the final verdict though. (You can check out the link in the second post that says "verification guidelines" for more on how this works)

Let me take a look now as well...

A/V: 5:40 - Could probably cut the extra footage past this point? We can do that too. I had a little corruption at 5:06 but if ktwo didn't see it, it's probably my crappy internet again.

Well, this looks like one of those times where the mechanics are so weird it's more or less impossible to confirm with the naked eye the run is really optimized. Your run comments show a lot of details even though I think they're the v. 1 run notes? And the first what 75% of the run hardly mean a thing apparently? May I suggest adding in the color palette of each room you're referencing in them to make it easier to follow them?

I don't see obvious mistakes. There's only a little health left in the end. Do you die as soon as it moves left one more step?

Feel free to answer my questions but I think I'm ready to give this an

accept

Lum

2022-12-06 01:44:59 pm

Yeah I had a massive fight with Yua which decided to stop accepting trim times and after an hour or so battling it I had to get to bed, but I assume I'll have to re-encode with the correct logo and audio commentary anyway.

It's not that the first 75% of the run means nothing. To actually reach prism 4 early enough that this is even an issue is quite a feat and my earlier runs it definitely wasn't a thing. It's nice to have that little bit of room to make mistakes, but it's not meaningless.

I think that last position is instant death, yes. It's hard to tell because it only moves one block at a time even though the health counter is more nuanced, so you never really know how much health you have left.

SDAVerification

2022-12-13 10:12:32 am

Decision posted.

Lum

2022-12-14 06:11:29 am

Woo, I guess I should re-encode with the SDA logo and an audio commentary?

Lum

2022-12-14 09:29:13 am

Uploaded v2.1 which is the same video, just trimmed correctly, and encoded with the SDA logo and the audio commentary flag turned on.

Unfortunately it seems Yua stripped the audio commentary even though I added it to the AVI before encoding. I've uploaded the WAV so hopefully you can just re-add it.

nate

2022-12-14 06:01:14 pm

i can add it or you may be able to with yua. tools menu -> add audio commentary, first select the .wav, then select all of your final encodes that yua produced.

Lum

2022-12-15 10:15:34 am

I didn't add much fun adding it with Yua, ended up with a file that had a really choppy audio commentary if played in VLC, or ran twice as fast but with good audio commentary in vanilla Windows Media Player. Yua also doesn't make backups, but I was able to strip off the audio track using AVIDemux (in copy mode, no re-encoding) and then add the audio commentary using Anri-Chan, so we should be good, uploaded as v2.2

If you decide I've messed with them too much and you want to use the V2.1 files, you'll need to add five seconds of silence to the beginning of the WAV I uploaded as it was made for adding before the SDA logo got added.

LotBlind

2022-12-15 12:21:50 pm

I didn't mention this but the SDA logo is optional, though I suppose not a terrible idea for consistency between runs. Sounds like we'll have access to high-quality files in case we have to do anything to it now, so let's assume that's fine. Thanks for recording the commentary BTW! Not a lot of those recently. But how can you possibly comment on this game??

Lum

2022-12-16 09:27:47 am

I couldn't actually find any runs with commentary when looking for style examples, so I just recorded it like I would if explaining the rules of the game and what I'm doing on a stream. I hope it's ok Cheesy

Hopefully the next time I submit a run things will go a bit smoother. I've not done any video editing in forever and also never used your tools before.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2022-12-16 11:36:39 am

2022-12-16 11:35:27 am

Now you probably know more about Yua than I do. I've yet to submit anything.

I'm sure what you did is perfectly fine BTW! Looking forward to hearing it at some point before the update comes out. Which tends to take a month or two BTW though I have optimistic plans of getting one out in December now.

Lum

2023-02-06 04:40:00 pm

Just saw the update has gone up. Is there something I need to do for this run? I thought it was all sorted?