New Fighting Game Concept

2005-12-16 11:52:53 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

At the request of Tri Hex in one of the threads about the next-gen consoles, I am posting my personal write-up of a concept for a fighting game befitting the next-generation. It's the product of several months of compilation and tweaking and reinvisioning. It's long. You have been warned.
___________________________________

Brawler Fighter - Untitled

Main concept goals:
-Allow full range of movement.
-Create an intuitive control scheme that allows for both simple play, and advanced techniques, as well as unorthodox characters.
-Make a deep competitive fighting engine while still allowing straight-forward arcade party action.
-Introduce a deep defensive aspect to arcade party fighters.
-Introduce Fatigue to keep players from being over-aggressive.
-Create a control configuration which can be easily translated to other styles of game with minimal alteration.

Default Controls (Gamecube assumption):
Control Stick: Move
D-Pad: No Use
A: Jump
B: Attack
Y: Special
X: Grab/Throw
L: Crouch
R: Focus
Z: Feint/Taunt
C-Stick: Camera control/Manual focus change

Basic systems:

Open Movement System:
Explore your surroundings! Use the Control Stick to move around the area in full 360 degrees, and jump to gain the high ground. Know the terrain, and use it to your advantage.

-Move with the Control Stick.
-Press A to Jump.
-Press L to Crouch.

Improvisational Combo System:
Give no quarter! Attacks can be chained together to perform combos, even against multiple opponents, so experiment with them. Every attack has a wind-up and a recovery time, so learn which attacks are fastest to
gain a priority advantage, and learn which attacks are best used to punctuate a combo with a powerful final blow.

-Press B to Attack.
-Try Attacks while Crouching, Jumping, or Running.

Special System:
Unleash your fighter's talents! Use your Special to unleash unique attacks on your opponents that are specific to each individual fighter. Combine Specials with the other controls to create even more variety of
potent attacks, but keep an eye on your fatigue, as specials can often easily tire you out. A fighter's specials are the key to mastering their style, but it's important not to rely too heavily on them, as they
often don't have as much variety as their normal Attacks.

-Press Special to use unique special attacks.
-Try using Special with other commands.

Enviroment Actions:
Use your surroundings! Use Grab and Attack to interact with your environment. Some arenas will hold unique hazards of their own, so be careful of where you fight.

-Press X to interact with the environment.
-Use walls to attack.
-Swing off and climb poles.
-Hang from overhangs.
-Pick up weapons.
-Throw weapons.
-Press Attack to use weapons.
-Press Attack to push objects.

Free Grapple system:
Get a handle on the brawl! Use Grab to grapple an opponent to limit their options. Swing them around with the Control Stick, hit them while they're defenseless with Attack, or simply throw them by pressing Throw and the Control Stick together. Push Grab again with no Control Stick input to push them away from you to make them stumble and create an
opening.

-Hold X to Grab your opponents.
-You can move enemies while holding them.
-You may Attack while in a Grapple.
-Release Grab while holding a direction to throw.
-Release Grab without a direction to let go.

Defense System:
Watch your opponent! Your adversary is as capable of attack as you are, so keep one eye on them at all times and protect yourself. The best defense is to keep out of reach.

-Crouch to avoid high attacks.
-Jump to avoid low attacks.
-Move to struggle against a grapple.

Recovery Technique System:
Keep on your toes! When you get knocked or thrown into the air, you're vulnerable, but you're even more vulnerable when you hit the ground again. Press Grab, Jump, or Crouch when you hit the ground to perform one of several Recovery Techniques and avoid extra damage on impact.

-Press Grab when you hit the ground to land on your feet.
-Press Crouch when you land to roll with the blow.
-Press Jump when you land to flip into the air in any direction.
-Press Crouch or Jump at the apex of flight to recover midair.
-Press Grab or Jump when hitting a wall to avoid extra damage.

Fatigue System:
Pace Yourself! As you attack and move around, your fatigue bar will increase, making your attacks do less damage, and causing your character's movements to become sluggish. The bar will empty slowly as you go on the defensive, and decrease even faster when out of the fray and taking a breather. The bar will recover more slowly as the fight lasts and as you take damage, so try to finish your fights quickly, but don't rush too much, or you may run out of steam before it's over. Learn your limits and control the pace of the fight.

-Fatigue is used as you take action.
-Fatigue recovers as you rest.
-Fatigue recovers slower the more damage you take, and the more you've already used.

Focus system:
Never turn your back on an opponent! Getting struck in the side or back causes extra damage and can stun you for greater periods of time, allowing the opponent to more easily use combination attacks. By holding
Focus, you will keep your character facing your opponent at all times, ensuring that they can never get to your blind side. Also, Focussing allows you to use more types of attacks and techniques, opening new
strategies to use. However, while Focussed, you are unable to maneuver as freely as you normally would, and you can only grab items and attack in the direction you're facing. When fighting more than one or two
opponents, or when fighting in unstable terrain, Focus can limit your effectivenss. You cannot Focus on an invisible opponent, and if an enemy suddenly disappears, or you're hit by anything other than your target, you will lose your Focus on them.

-Press R to Focus on a target.
-Focus to stay facing a target.
-Focus to enable extra techniques.
-Use the C-Stick to change Focus.
-Focus makes you vulnerable to other opponents.

Continued in next message...

Thread title:

At the request of Tri Hex in one of the threads about the next-gen consoles, I am posting my personal write-up of a concept for a fighting game befitting the next-generation.  It's the product of several months of compilation and tweaking and reinvisioning.  It's long.  You have been warned.
___________________________________

Brawler Fighter - Untitled

Main concept goals:
-Allow full range of movement.
-Create an intuitive control scheme that allows for both simple play, and advanced techniques, as well as unorthodox characters.
-Make a deep competitive fighting engine while still allowing straight-forward arcade party action.
-Introduce a deep defensive aspect to arcade party fighters.
-Introduce Fatigue to keep players from being over-aggressive.
-Create a control configuration which can be easily translated to other styles of game with minimal alteration.

Default Controls (Gamecube assumption):
Control Stick: Move
D-Pad: No Use
A: Jump
B: Attack
Y: Special
X: Grab/Throw
L: Crouch
R: Focus
Z: Feint/Taunt
C-Stick: Camera control/Manual focus change

Basic systems:

Open Movement System:
Explore your surroundings!  Use the Control Stick to move around the area in full 360 degrees, and jump to gain the high ground.  Know the terrain, and use it to your advantage.

-Move with the Control Stick.
-Press A to Jump.
-Press L to Crouch.

Improvisational Combo System:
Give no quarter!  Attacks can be chained together to perform combos, even against multiple opponents, so experiment with them.  Every attack has a wind-up and a recovery time, so learn which attacks are fastest to 
gain a priority advantage, and learn which attacks are best used to punctuate a combo with a powerful final blow.

-Press B to Attack.
-Try Attacks while Crouching, Jumping, or Running.

Special System:
Unleash your fighter's talents!  Use your Special to unleash unique attacks on your opponents that are specific to each individual fighter.  Combine Specials with the other controls to create even more variety of 
potent attacks, but keep an eye on your fatigue, as specials can often easily tire you out.  A fighter's specials are the key to mastering their style, but it's important not to rely too heavily on them, as they 
often don't have as much variety as their normal Attacks.

-Press Special to use unique special attacks.
-Try using Special with other commands.

Enviroment Actions:
Use your surroundings!  Use Grab and Attack to interact with your environment.  Some arenas will hold unique hazards of their own, so be careful of where you fight.

-Press X to interact with the environment.
-Use walls to attack.
-Swing off and climb poles.
-Hang from overhangs.
-Pick up weapons.
-Throw weapons.
-Press Attack to use weapons.
-Press Attack to push objects.

Free Grapple system:
Get a handle on the brawl!  Use Grab to grapple an opponent to limit their options.  Swing them around with the Control Stick, hit them while they're defenseless with Attack, or simply throw them by pressing Throw and the Control Stick together.  Push Grab again with no Control Stick input to push them away from you to make them stumble and create an 
opening.

-Hold X to Grab your opponents.
-You can move enemies while holding them.
-You may Attack while in a Grapple.
-Release Grab while holding a direction to throw.
-Release Grab without a direction to let go.

Defense System:
Watch your opponent!  Your adversary is as capable of attack as you are, so keep one eye on them at all times and protect yourself.  The best defense is to keep out of reach.

-Crouch to avoid high attacks.
-Jump to avoid low attacks.
-Move to struggle against a grapple.

Recovery Technique System:
Keep on your toes!  When you get knocked or thrown into the air, you're vulnerable, but you're even more vulnerable when you hit the ground again.  Press Grab, Jump, or Crouch when you hit the ground to perform one of several Recovery Techniques and avoid extra damage on impact.

-Press Grab when you hit the ground to land on your feet.
-Press Crouch when you land to roll with the blow.
-Press Jump when you land to flip into the air in any direction.
-Press Crouch or Jump at the apex of flight to recover midair.
-Press Grab or Jump when hitting a wall to avoid extra damage.

Fatigue System:
Pace Yourself!  As you attack and move around, your fatigue bar will increase, making your attacks do less damage, and causing your character's movements to become sluggish.  The bar will empty slowly as you go on the defensive, and decrease even faster when out of the fray and taking a breather.  The bar will recover more slowly as the fight lasts and as you take damage, so try to finish your fights quickly, but don't rush too much, or you may run out of steam before it's over.  Learn your limits and control the pace of the fight.

-Fatigue is used as you take action.
-Fatigue recovers as you rest.
-Fatigue recovers slower the more damage you take, and the more you've already used.

Focus system:
Never turn your back on an opponent!  Getting struck in the side or back causes extra damage and can stun you for greater periods of time, allowing the opponent to more easily use combination attacks.  By holding 
Focus, you will keep your character facing your opponent at all times, ensuring that they can never get to your blind side.  Also, Focussing allows you to use more types of attacks and techniques, opening new 
strategies to use.  However, while Focussed, you are unable to maneuver as freely as you normally would, and you can only grab items and attack in the direction you're facing.  When fighting more than one or two 
opponents, or when fighting in unstable terrain, Focus can limit your effectivenss.  You cannot Focus on an invisible opponent, and if an enemy suddenly disappears, or you're hit by anything other than your target, you will lose your Focus on them.

-Press R to Focus on a target.
-Focus to stay facing a target.
-Focus to enable extra techniques.
-Use the C-Stick to change Focus.
-Focus makes you vulnerable to other opponents.

Continued in next message...

HeroPenguin

2005-12-16 11:53:10 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Advanced Systems:

Advanced Movement:
Excersize your whole body! Use Crouch and Jump together to perform special movements. Some characters can perform special maneuvers to
increase their mobility. Watch out though, as most of these advanced options are tiring to use. Use them as necessary, and don't forget to pace yourself.

-Double-tap a direction to quickly lunge in that direction.
-Crouch and Jump to do a high jump.
-Crouch and Jump while moving to do a long jump.
-Crouch while moving to sprint.
-Crouch and stop moving to roll or slide.
-Crouch while Jumping to somersault.
-Jump in the air to double jump.
-Jump while touching a wall in the air to triangle jump.
-Hold Grab to stick to walls or ceilings.
-Start flying by by using any special jump.
-In flight, Jump ascends, Crouch descends, and combinations of Crouch, Jump, and movement can result in special aerobatics.
-See individual characters to learn what advanced movements they can use.

Variation System:
Fine-tune your attacks! By combining directional input with your attacks and specials, you can create entirely new techniques. To further control your technique, some attacks can be altered by additional input
after the attack is initialized. Different attacks have different effects on opponents, and can create attack and combo opprotunities, so be sure to experiment and practice.

-See character movelists for Attack techniques.

Feint Cancel System:
Make your opponent blink! Use Feint while attacking to throw a fake to try and force your opponent to misstep, and leave themselves open to a real attack. A Feint Cancel can be used with any attack, be it an Attack, Special, or Throw, and instantly ends the technique, allowing you to attack again without pause. A Feint uses more fatigue the later in the technique it's used, so be careful how you use them.

-Press Z to Feint.
-Feints automatically cancel any attack and allow you to use any other legal attack.
-Feints use Fatigue based on the amount of animation completed of the cancelled attack at the time of the cancel.

Taunt System:
Attack their ego! When not attacking, pressing the Feint button allows you to Taunt your Focus target. The action changes depending on the context of the battle, but the effect is always the same. By taunting your opponent, you make them angry, causing them to move faster and hit harder, while at the same time increasing their fatigue rate and lowering their damage resistance. However, taunting leaves you open, and if
the taunt is cancelled at any time, the effect is nullified. Also, if your opponent taunts you, or you are injured, the Taunt is cancelled. You can also Focus on an ally and Bolster them in the same fashion, which can nullify a Taunt, or simply fortify them against taunt effects.

-Press Feint while Focussed on an opponent and not attacking to Taunt.
-Taunting increases enemy speed, power, and fatigue consumption while reducing defense.
-Press Feint while Focussed on an ally and not attacking to Bolster.
-Bolstering reduces fatigue decline and raises damage resistance, and returns power and speed to normal levels.
-Taunt and Bolster effects wear off gradually over time. Effects refresh, but do not stack with repeated use.
-Taunting while not focussed Bolsters yourself, with lesser effects.

Advanced Free Grapple System:
Don't let them out of your control! Act quickly while grappling your opponent to keep them from breaking free. Use the Crouch button to bring them to the ground where you have a larger advantage over them, or Jump to lift them off the ground completely to take away their leverage. When trying to break free, use the Control Stick to try and avoid being moved into a compromising situation, Crouch and Jump to resist being
pinned or lifted, Attack to weaken their grip and resolve, or Grab to try and turn the grapple against them.

-Press Jump while grappling to lift your opponent.
-Press Crouch while grappling to pin your foe.
-Move while grappled to avoid being controlled by your attacker.

Dodge System:
Hone your reflexes! If you can't escape your opponent by running away, and they're too unpredictable to evade by just crouching and jumping, then it's time to turn the tide. While Focussed, begin a movement the
instant your opponent commits an attack to Dodge. Watch your fatigue, since such quick movements are a good way to tire yourself out if you're not careful. Even if your timing is a little slow, you can avoid full damage by twisting with the blow to minimize the impact. However, moving into the path of an attack, such as Crouching into a rising attack, or moving left into an attack going to your right will result in taking more damage than normal. Compared to Parry and Catch, Dodge expends much more fatigue, but is much safer.

-While Focussing, move when an opponent attacks to Dodge.
-You cannot dodge an attack that you move in to. You must always move around or away from the attack.
-Dodging takes Fatigue to perform.

Parry System:
Swat blows away! If an opponent is attacking too quickly to dodge, then it may be time to intercept their attacks directly. By Focussing on your opponent, you can strike your opponent's attacks themselves with
attacks of similar strength to Parry and stop them completely, giving you the upper hand, and a small opening to turn the tide. However, if an opponent's attack is simply too strong, they may crush your parry and cause you to take even more damage than normal, leaving you wide open to even more powerful attacks. On the other hand, if you parry with an attack far stronger than theirs, you can crush them as well.

-While Focussing, press Attack to parry enemy attacks.
-Weak attacks cannot parry very strong ones.
-A very strong parry may overpower a weaker attack.
-Attacks can be parried easier by altering their course instead of stopping it. Direction is very important.

Catch System:
Intercept attacks! When an opponent throws an object at you, why dodge, when you can simply catch it out of the air? Using Focus and similar timing to the Dodge defense, you can Grab an object before it hits you,
and use it against your enemy. You can also catch physical strikes, and enter directly into a Free Grapple with your opponent unable to respond for a second, or take a weapon directly out of an enemy's hand if
they're armed. Watch out though, because an elemental or energy attack cannot be caught, and you'll suffer extra damage for your trouble.

-While Focussing, press Grab to catch an attack.
-Catching an item or weapon automatically picks up the item.
-Catching an attack automatically grapples your opponent.
-You cannot Catch an energy attack or an item too heavy for you to lift.

Grade System:
Wow the crowd! At the end of every match, win or lose, you will receive a grade broken down into several categories, including your fight time, fighting skill, vitality remaining, efficiency level, and match points. High grades are rewarded in many ways, so strive for the best; Practice makes perfect.

-The shorter they fight, the higher the Time bonus for the winner(s).
-The longer they fight, the higher the Time Bonus for the loser(s).
-The more attacks used, the greater the Skill Bonus.
-The more attacks that hit, the greater the Skill Bonus.
-The less injury sustained, the greater the Vitality Bonus.
-The less Fatigue expended, the greater the Efficiency Bonus.
-The more rounds you won, the greater your Match Point score.
-The more rounds you lost, the lower your Match Point score.

Major concept inspirations: Powerstone, Super Mario 64, Devil May Cry, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive.
______________________________________

That's the last of it. It's a little outdated, but all the major concepts are there intact. Please, PLEASE comment and leave suggestions, and I'll answer as best I can. If this topic is somehow against the spirit or rules of the boards, I have no problems with it being taken down, I just posted here, again, on request of fellow community member Tri Hex. Happy dissecting!

Advanced Systems:

Advanced Movement:
Excersize your whole body!  Use Crouch and Jump together to perform special movements.  Some characters can perform special maneuvers to 
increase their mobility.  Watch out though, as most of these advanced options are tiring to use.  Use them as necessary, and don't forget to pace yourself.

-Double-tap a direction to quickly lunge in that direction.
-Crouch and Jump to do a high jump.
-Crouch and Jump while moving to do a long jump.
-Crouch while moving to sprint.
-Crouch and stop moving to roll or slide.
-Crouch while Jumping to somersault.
-Jump in the air to double jump.
-Jump while touching a wall in the air to triangle jump.
-Hold Grab to stick to walls or ceilings.
-Start flying by by using any special jump.
-In flight, Jump ascends, Crouch descends, and combinations of Crouch, Jump, and movement can result in special aerobatics.
-See individual characters to learn what advanced movements they can use.

Variation System:
Fine-tune your attacks!  By combining directional input with your attacks and specials, you can create entirely new techniques.  To further control your technique, some attacks can be altered by additional input 
after the attack is initialized.  Different attacks have different effects on opponents, and can create attack and combo opprotunities, so be sure to experiment and practice.

-See character movelists for Attack techniques.

Feint Cancel System:
Make your opponent blink!  Use Feint while attacking to throw a fake to try and force your opponent to misstep, and leave themselves open to a real attack.  A Feint Cancel can be used with any attack, be it an Attack, Special, or Throw, and instantly ends the technique, allowing you to attack again without pause.  A Feint uses more fatigue the later in the technique it's used, so be careful how you use them.

-Press Z to Feint.
-Feints automatically cancel any attack and allow you to use any other legal attack.
-Feints use Fatigue based on the amount of animation completed of the cancelled attack at the time of the cancel.

Taunt System:
Attack their ego!  When not attacking, pressing the Feint button allows you to Taunt your Focus target.  The action changes depending on the context of the battle, but the effect is always the same.  By taunting your opponent, you make them angry, causing them to move faster and hit harder, while at the same time increasing their fatigue rate and lowering their damage resistance.  However, taunting leaves you open, and if 
the taunt is cancelled at any time, the effect is nullified.  Also, if your opponent taunts you, or you are injured, the Taunt is cancelled.  You can also Focus on an ally and Bolster them in the same fashion, which can nullify a Taunt, or simply fortify them against taunt effects.

-Press Feint while Focussed on an opponent and not attacking to Taunt.
-Taunting increases enemy speed, power, and fatigue consumption while reducing defense.
-Press Feint while Focussed on an ally and not attacking to Bolster.
-Bolstering reduces fatigue decline and raises damage resistance, and returns power and speed to normal levels.
-Taunt and Bolster effects wear off gradually over time.  Effects refresh, but do not stack with repeated use.
-Taunting while not focussed Bolsters yourself, with lesser effects.

Advanced Free Grapple System:
Don't let them out of your control!  Act quickly while grappling your opponent to keep them from breaking free.  Use the Crouch button to bring them to the ground where you have a larger advantage over them, or Jump to lift them off the ground completely to take away their leverage.  When trying to break free, use the Control Stick to try and avoid being moved into a compromising situation, Crouch and Jump to resist being 
pinned or lifted, Attack to weaken their grip and resolve, or Grab to try and turn the grapple against them.

-Press Jump while grappling to lift your opponent.
-Press Crouch while grappling to pin your foe.
-Move while grappled to avoid being controlled by your attacker.

Dodge System:
Hone your reflexes!  If you can't escape your opponent by running away, and they're too unpredictable to evade by just crouching and jumping, then it's time to turn the tide.  While Focussed, begin a movement the 
instant your opponent commits an attack to Dodge.  Watch your fatigue, since such quick movements are a good way to tire yourself out if you're not careful.  Even if your timing is a little slow, you can avoid full damage by twisting with the blow to minimize the impact.  However, moving into the path of an attack, such as Crouching into a rising attack, or moving left into an attack going to your right will result in taking more damage than normal.  Compared to Parry and Catch, Dodge expends much more fatigue, but is much safer.

-While Focussing, move when an opponent attacks to Dodge.
-You cannot dodge an attack that you move in to.  You must always move around or away from the attack.
-Dodging takes Fatigue to perform.

Parry System:
Swat blows away!  If an opponent is attacking too quickly to dodge, then it may be time to intercept their attacks directly.  By Focussing on your opponent, you can strike your opponent's attacks themselves with 
attacks of similar strength to Parry and stop them completely, giving you the upper hand, and a small opening to turn the tide.  However, if an opponent's attack is simply too strong, they may crush your parry and cause you to take even more damage than normal, leaving you wide open to even more powerful attacks.  On the other hand, if you parry with an attack far stronger than theirs, you can crush them as well.

-While Focussing, press Attack to parry enemy attacks.
-Weak attacks cannot parry very strong ones.
-A very strong parry may overpower a weaker attack.
-Attacks can be parried easier by altering their course instead of stopping it.  Direction is very important.

Catch System:
Intercept attacks!  When an opponent throws an object at you, why dodge, when you can simply catch it out of the air?  Using Focus and similar timing to the Dodge defense, you can Grab an object before it hits you, 
and use it against your enemy.  You can also catch physical strikes, and enter directly into a Free Grapple with your opponent unable to respond for a second, or take a weapon directly out of an enemy's hand if 
they're armed.  Watch out though, because an elemental or energy attack cannot be caught, and you'll suffer extra damage for your trouble.

-While Focussing, press Grab to catch an attack.
-Catching an item or weapon automatically picks up the item.
-Catching an attack automatically grapples your opponent.
-You cannot Catch an energy attack or an item too heavy for you to lift.

Grade System:
Wow the crowd!  At the end of every match, win or lose, you will receive a grade broken down into several categories, including your fight time, fighting skill, vitality remaining, efficiency level, and match points.  High grades are rewarded in many ways, so strive for the best; Practice makes perfect.

-The shorter they fight, the higher the Time bonus for the winner(s).
-The longer they fight, the higher the Time Bonus for the loser(s).
-The more attacks used, the greater the Skill Bonus.
-The more attacks that hit, the greater the Skill Bonus.
-The less injury sustained, the greater the Vitality Bonus.
-The less Fatigue expended, the greater the Efficiency Bonus.
-The more rounds you won, the greater your Match Point score.
-The more rounds you lost, the lower your Match Point score.

Major concept inspirations:  Powerstone, Super Mario 64, Devil May Cry, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive.
______________________________________

That's the last of it.  It's a little outdated, but all the major concepts are there intact.  Please, PLEASE comment and leave suggestions, and I'll answer as best I can.  If this topic is somehow against the spirit or rules of the boards, I have no problems with it being taken down, I just posted here, again, on request of fellow community member Tri Hex.  Happy dissecting!

Hitaro

Edit history:

Hitaro: 2005-12-17 12:10:27 am

2005-12-17 12:09:31 am

I think your trying way too hard. I mean,you completely forgot about guarding and you place crouch on a freakin' trigger!

Look at Street Fighters II or SSBM; it's incredibly simple. In ST II, you can do a weak fast punch, and medium speed and strenght punch and a slow fierce punch. You can also combine some button imputs for special attacks, grab when your close, and jump, crouch, move and block with the D pad. Incredibly simple, when you think about it, but it's so great.

SSBM, you have different attacks for two buttons, depending on where you push on the control stick and how you time pressing the stick and the button. You can also grab, block, jump, roll, sidestep dodge and air dodge, making it a bit more complicated than ST, but it's basically the same concept with other tweeks a la Nintendo.

And I'm pretty sure my examples were useles...>.<

Plain and simple; I think you're trying too hard.

Oh, and nobody cares about "points" in fighting games anymore ;p.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-17 12:29:16 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

I will tackle your comments point by point:

1) This is not a 2D fighter. Because of that, crouch becomes a conflict with sidestepping. The crouch button has been used with much success on other games, such as Super Mario 64, and as expansive movement is a priority in this game, it made the most sense to make it a trigger.

2) The removal of a guard button from the game was a conscious decision. Ask anyone who actually fights, and they'll tell you you don't just stand there and take a hit. You dodge, you parry, and you capture enemy attacks. That was the basis for the decision, and I think it can work well, potentially. Also consider that in Soul Calibur, smash Bros, and Dead or Alive, you have a defense option based on timing. That's what I'm aiming for here.

3) I guess I should add Smash Bros to my list of inspirations. The attack system, specifically the Attack/Special set up is a simplified version of what I'm looking at.

Consider this: In 3D fighting games, most attacks are direction-sensitive. That is, press A and you'll swing a sword, but press back and A and you'll swing it in a different fashion, and press down and A and you'l swing it low. With the crouch and jump buttons, along with the control stick, you can get that same flexibility without sacrificing mobility or tweaking in a way to make the controller differentiate between free movement and vertical movement.

My write-up might be a bit... congested, but it's intended and imagined to be intuitive, and yet flexible. If there is confusion, please say so, so I can improve the write-up itself to make it more clear, and be as specific as you can.

4) As far as points go, that's not really what the grading system was meant to represent. It's meant to be a feedback system to let you know what areas you exceed in, which could use more practice, and most importantly, to gauge your level of skill for online play and match making. Giving it the additional effect of allowing you unlockables access is just an extension that made sense to me. It's for evaluation, not high scores.

I will tackle your comments point by point:

1) This is not a 2D fighter.  Because of that, crouch becomes a conflict with sidestepping.  The crouch button has been used with much success on other games, such as Super Mario 64, and as expansive movement is a priority in this game, it made the most sense to make it a trigger.

2) The removal of a guard button from the game was a conscious decision.  Ask anyone who actually fights, and they'll tell you you don't just stand there and take a hit.  You dodge, you parry, and you capture enemy attacks.  That was the basis for the decision, and I think it can work well, potentially.  Also consider that in Soul Calibur, smash Bros, and Dead or Alive, you have a defense option based on timing.  That's what I'm aiming for here.

3) I guess I should add Smash Bros to my list of inspirations.  The attack system, specifically the Attack/Special set up is a simplified version of what I'm looking at.

Consider this:  In 3D fighting games, most attacks are direction-sensitive.  That is, press A and you'll swing a sword, but press back and A and you'll swing it in a different fashion, and press down and A and you'l swing it low.  With the crouch and jump buttons, along with the control stick, you can get that same flexibility without sacrificing mobility or tweaking in a way to make the controller differentiate between free movement and vertical movement.

My write-up might be a bit... congested, but it's intended and imagined to be intuitive, and yet flexible.  If there is confusion, please say so, so I can improve the write-up itself to make it more clear, and be as specific as you can.

4) As far as points go, that's not really what the grading system was meant to represent.  It's meant to be a feedback system to let you know what areas you exceed in, which could use more practice, and most importantly, to gauge your level of skill for online play and match making.  Giving it the additional effect of allowing you unlockables access is just an extension that made sense to me.  It's for evaluation, not high scores.

Pweisger

2005-12-17 07:35:22 am

PwNzRd!

Ok, to have a short post along side all these long-assed ones, there is too much in there for one game, but some interesting ideas that could improve future releases.

trihex

2005-12-20 12:31:13 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Impressive amount of detail. But I didn't go as to say request this. Just want to come to the attention of the fighting games. Since outside of SSB Revolution, no one bothered with what else could be done.

Again, nice. Wink

NintenDan

2005-12-20 12:45:43 am

I'm not really into fighting games, so I can't really comment

As a bandie though, I always thought it would be cool if there was a 3d fighting game with a level where you could fight in a band room and use musical instruments scattered about to attack your foe. Smash guitars, sword fight with Trombones, stuff like that >_>

getter77

2005-12-20 02:40:19 am

100% runs=great to watch

I recommend One Must Fall: Battlegrounds for the PC. If the rest of the make-kits ever come out...you could very well create something similar to what you want.

www.omf.com I think.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 03:16:58 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

OMF certainly looks interesting, and I may well take a closer look at it soon, but I don't think it'd really be able to be converted into something closer to what I'm looking at without completely ripping it apart and building it back up again, which would rather defeat the purpose. Specifically, issues with movement, which was a primary concern. I could be mistaken, but judging by the features mentioned on the site, it doesn't seem to be the case.

Honestly, my concept is really pushing the limits of the fighting game category. It's almost more of a beat 'em up or a normal action game than a fighter. The reason I call it a fighter instead of one of those is because of the complexity in the actual combat aspect. Imagine Powerstone, with more complexity in attack and movement, online, and you have a pretty good analogy of the concept.

Amazing Ampharos

2005-12-20 04:11:35 am

In real fighting you do block. At least you do if you use weapons.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 04:24:43 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Yes, but is it a "hold your weapon in the way" or is it a "intercept an attack and deflect it"? To my knowledge, it's the latter. Holding a guard button/direction doesn't reflect the active nature of such a defense, which was the aim in making the defenses timing based instead.

Besides, this would make turtling require some real skill, and make it less frequent in general. Wink

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2005-12-20 05:19:20 am

2005-12-20 05:18:32 am

Zelda Scientist®

cool ideas, but I think that GGX2#R is still more inventive. FRCs, RCs, Bursts (gold and blue), guard gage, jump installs, jump cancels, and FD and controlled IKs. For all the non guilty gear players, I advise checking out what those things mean, realize how cool they are, and then start playing the game.

Enhasa

2005-12-20 05:27:45 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

If the OMF people promise something, you may as well consider it vaporware.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 05:29:53 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

I love Guilty Gear, and I agree, all those are excellent concepts. But frankly, this is an entirely different type of game. Guilty Gear is the all get out one on one intense battle to the death. Mine is much more free-form and it is so on purpose. I put an emphasis on movement and timing more than fighting and cancels.

Really, the only way the two games would compare is in the fact that you have (at least) two characters trying to defeat each other, and that both have supernatural things going on in them. That's where the comparison breaks down. I wouldn't dare try to compare to Guilty Gear directly, that's just madness.

soteos

2005-12-20 07:35:13 am

Quote:

In real fighting you do block. At least you do if you use weapons.

Hell no, you best avoid other weapons with your body. Weapons are made for attacking.
Btw, in real fighting you both end up on the ground attacking each other's open spots. But I've yet to see a non-wrestling game that includes ground fighting.

The thing I like about SSB more than other games is its freedom of movement. I'd much rather move like the crazy unrealistic martial arts masters in Kung Fu films than the clunky badly-choreographed actors in Hollywood action movies.
So I guess my ideal fighting game would be SSB + all the cool stuff HeroPenguin mentioned + more free movement (emphasized to the max!) + more crazy combos. Also some badass weapons skills like in Soul Calibur, which will be ten times as awesome with all the added freedom.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 07:58:30 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Thanks for the feedback, Soteos. I had ground fighting in mind when I was dealing with the Free Grapple system. It bothered me that in most fighting games, grappling was completely ignored, relegated to simply being a number of canned throws. This represents a needed improvement, in my opinion.

Would you mind defining "crazy combos" for me? It can mean any number of things, I just want to make sure I'm on the same page. I'll agree though that freedom of movement will do much to improve the exerience. Fighting in a flat environment or in 2D can only go so far, especially when there's only two opponents involved.

To be honet, this whole concept came to being almost directly from wishing I could play Powerstone (which a friend is still borrowing) and then wondering what could be done to make it deeper and more technical, so you'd actually see tournaments played with it. It snowballed from there. Grin

soteos

Edit history:

soteos: 2005-12-20 08:06:21 am

2005-12-20 08:04:45 am

Quote:

Would you mind defining "crazy combos" for me? It can mean any number of things

Oh, I wasn't being specific about anything. Just that SSB has no combos, and it would be nice to include them.
I also think it would be awesome if all the basic moves had some sort of combo-like flow to them.

Also a must have: create your own character!

Lag.Com

2005-12-20 08:35:59 am

sda loyalist

There's a lot of stuff there, almost too much for one game, as one person mentioned... however, it reminds me of Ergheiz with its movement system, which is not necessarily a good thing. Smiley

One fighting game concept I thought was quite interesting is using the Revolution controller as a 'posture indicator'. Where the stick is in the air controls where your character holds their weight, and a movement indicates a change in posture/an attack. Moving whilst holding a button changes the type of movement.
Very general. Smiley

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 06:01:22 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

I also think it would be awesome if all the basic moves had some sort of combo-like flow to them.

Also a must have: create your own character!

Done, and I certainly hope so. Wink

Btw, interesting idea Lag. I started this concept before the Rev's controller was released, so I didn't adapt it to that possibility, but I was wondering how a fighting game would take advantage of that controller best. That just might be a good start.

In further response to Soteos, there's an idea I was kicking around that could be interesting. Most games include difficulty adjustments, and fighting games often let you change the damage level and speed of the game. I had an idea to let you tweak the physics. To range from cartoon physics, where knockback distance is vastly increased, characters jump very high, and there is no falling or impact damage, to harsh physics, where falling always hurts and it's nearly impossible to jump over an enemy character, and a few levels in between. My scale had in mind four steps, of Cartoon, Cinematic, Realistic, and Harsh. Thoughts on that?

[quote]
I also think it would be awesome if all the basic moves had some sort of combo-like flow to them.

Also a must have: create your own character![/quote]

Done, and I certainly hope so.  ;)

Btw, interesting idea Lag.  I started this concept before the Rev's controller was released, so I didn't adapt it to that possibility, but I was wondering how a fighting game would take advantage of that controller best.  That just might be a good start.

In further response to Soteos, there's an idea I was kicking around that could be interesting.  Most games include difficulty adjustments, and fighting games often let you change the damage level and speed of the game.  I had an idea to let you tweak the physics.  To range from cartoon physics, where knockback distance is vastly increased, characters jump very high, and there is no falling or impact damage, to harsh physics, where falling always hurts and it's nearly impossible to jump over an enemy character, and a few levels in between.  My scale had in mind four steps, of Cartoon, Cinematic, Realistic, and Harsh.  Thoughts on that?

Weazel

2005-12-20 09:12:11 pm

Didn't Bushido Blade have full range movement/interactive terrain?

Also, turtling doesn't really work anyway since it makes you susceptible to throws. I personally would be happy to simply see a fighting game with an actual, quality story line.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-20 10:14:34 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

Didn't Bushido Blade have full range movement/interactive terrain?

Also, turtling doesn't really work anyway since it makes you susceptible to throws. I personally would be happy to simply see a fighting game with an actual, quality story line.

Powerstone had free movement and interactive terrain, too. This isn't a question of what could we do that's completely new, really, it's more of a compiliation of things that woked well and that COULD work well together, in ways that haven't been done before. I doubt Bushido Blade had free movement and a free-structured combo system and a developed movement system and a free grapple system to actually represent the way grappling actually works in real life as opposed to a list of canned throws that are almost always incredibly unlikely to happen in a real fight.

Turtling can work, btw. Generally not on a highly competitive level, but someone who turtles constantly is generally smart enough to attack an opponent when they come in for a throw. It's not so simple to break open a turtle.

[quote]Didn't Bushido Blade have full range movement/interactive terrain?

Also, turtling doesn't really work anyway since it makes you susceptible to throws. I personally would be happy to simply see a fighting game with an actual, quality story line.[/quote]

Powerstone had free movement and interactive terrain, too.  This isn't a question of what could we do that's completely new, really, it's more of a compiliation of things that woked well and that COULD work well together, in ways that haven't been done before.  I doubt Bushido Blade had free movement and a free-structured combo system and a developed movement system and a free grapple system to actually represent the way grappling actually works in real life as opposed to a list of canned throws that are almost always incredibly unlikely to happen in a real fight.

Turtling can work, btw.  Generally not on a highly competitive level, but someone who turtles constantly is generally smart enough to attack an opponent when they come in for a throw.  It's not so simple to break open a turtle.

MissileWaster

Edit history:

MissileWaster: 2005-12-21 12:06:43 am

2005-12-21 12:05:15 am

This would be a cool idea and could make the new fighting games good. I think that this should be put into Mortal Kombat.

HeroPenguin

Edit history:

HeroPenguin: 2005-12-21 12:17:41 am

2005-12-21 12:16:22 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

I think that this should be put into Mortal Kombat.

Mortal Kombat = NO. There is nothing about that line that in any way corresponds with the concepts presented here. I have never seen any particular merit in that series, the only exception being the style-switching mechanics introduced in Deadly Alliance, which fell far short of their potential. No, these ideas will never be seen in a Mortal Kombat game.

Forgive my snapping, I do appreciate your compliment on the concepts. Mortal Kombat, however, is as far removed as anything could be from an ideal game to adapt these ideas to.