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Mr. K: 2013-06-12 11:34:00 pm
Yes
This post is going to be a wall of text.  Sorry about that.  If you want an example of how a new page will look, check out the Contra page:
https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Contra

We're making a lot of changes to the KB and along with that comes some changes to the way that we'd like to do game pages.  I'm really happy to hear that so many of you have already shown interest and started working on content and I'm excited to see what we can all come up with.  For anyone who isn't clear what exactly goes into the new knowledge base, here is what we'd like you to write.  Write down what someone would need to know in order to do a speedrun of the game you're covering to get it accepted on SDA.  If there's already a run posted, what would you need to know in order to obsolete the current run?  If the SDA run is outdated, focus on the strategies that need to be included in order to obsolete the current best known time for a game.  What you write will help someone get a run that meets SDA strandards and will document the current optimal strats for a game. 

Here's why we're doing this.  We make better speedruns when more people get involved.  As our community grows larger we share discoveries and the end result becomes something magical.  It goes without saying that speedrunning takes a ton of planning and can demand a very deep knowledge of a game's mechanics.  There's nothing wrong with games being hard and complex, but just because something is complex doesn't mean it has to be inaccessible to people.  The goal of the new strategy wiki is to take all of the information that members of the  speedrunning community know about their games and organize it into a way that makes it accessible for everyone.  When I say everyone, I mean the whole speedrunning community.  Instead of just thinking about speedrunning as separate communities like SDA/SRL and TAS videos each doing their own thing, this can become a resource that every community contributes to and shares.  Again, the more people we involve, the better our finished product gets.  The content that you create can help people from TAS Videos dissect your game and push it to its limits.  If I had a dime for every time I stole an interesting trick from a tool assisted speedrun, I could afford a new copy of Earthbound.  Your work in the KB can also help someone casually interested in speedrunning develop a better appreciation for what goes into speedrunning your game.  It can also help grow your game's popularity on SpeedRunsLive.  SpeedRunsLive is currently working on a leaderboard for games.  We're hoping that by the time it's finished, the KB will be built up enough to the point where a leaderboard page for a game can link directly to the game's KB entry in the strategy wiki.  Information shouldn't stay undocumented in someone's head or get buried in forum threads.  Because speedrunning gets so complicated we've got to put some sort of organization into our documentation otherwise we get a gigantic wall of text that's not very accessible.  We've come up with a format that will work well for most games. 

Format:
*Everything will no longer be in one page.  Instead there will be a landing pages will link to all of the other pages.
*Each game's category will have its own page
*Each game will have a separate page devoted to its mechanics and glitches

Detail:

->Each game has a main landing page
-The landing page will list the categories for each game and what the categories consist of
-The landing page will link to a game mechanics page and link to additional resources

What goes into each page:

->Category Page
-A link to the fastest known time will be at the top of each category page (it does not have to be a run verified on SDA)
-The game's route will be covered on this page.  The entire route needs to be on one page
-Use the wiki sectional formatting to keep the route organized and allow readers to jump to a particular section of the route
-If there are two different routes for a game and they are both viable contenders for the fastest time, make two pages.  Ex: Any % dungeon x first, Any % dungeon y first
-To help keep this page concise, link to tricks and their explanations in the game mechanics page instead of explaining every trick on the route page

***I don't know your game better than you do.  Break out the route into whatever sections you think is best, but PLEASE make sure it makes sense to someone who is new to speedrunning the game, keep it on the same page, and keep it organized using the wiki's sectional formatting. For a linear game like Super Mario Bros. for the NES the formatting you'd use would be a section for each stage.  For a game that has a more complex route like OoT you can do what you think is best for your category.  Just identify ways of breaking the route up into sections and use the wiki formatting to keep navigating between them easy.


->Game Mechanics Page
-Explanations of the game mechanics.  This may include how values of weapon damage or enemy health.  It can also include detailed explanation of something that is unique to a particular game for example the
mechanics of the roll in Donkey Kong Country
-Video explanations are ideal
-You can explain a mechanic that is unique to a particular area of the game.  For example in Contra, this is how the claws work in stage 7.
-Important notes on timing (game time vs real time) can go here
-Version differences in games can go here
-Glitches and explanations on how to do them go here
-You are more than welcome to link to external guides and content. 
-Depending on the complexity of the game, mechanics and glitches may be split off into multiple pages
-If you are discussing a particular mechanic in a great amount of detail, you may create a separate page or pages for that mechanic and link to it on the mechanics page

->Additional Resources
-Anything that doesn't fit neatly into the other pages can go here
-Link to a TAS for the game or a theory TAS can go here
-If a game has an irc channel on SDA or SRL it can go here
-If the game has its own separate community, it can be linked here

->(Optional) casual speedrunning section
- If there are safe strats or route changes that are suboptimal, but make the game much easier to speedrun for casual players they can be documented here
- Expectation of main category page is to list the fastest route or the best techniques

I'm working on a tutorial video that explains everything you need to know about making game pages.  I'll have that ready shortly.  For now please use this thread to discuss any questions you may have.  I'm sure there will be corner cases and we'll see if we can get them to work with this format as best as we can.  I look forward to building up the new KB with all of you! 

-K
Thread title:  
Yes
I'll be making a video that will explain how to create and edit game pages to.  I'll explain the wiki formatting and how to do everything you need to do in order to make these pages soon.
Edit history:
honorableJay: 2013-06-12 10:15:18 pm
The Dork Knight himself.
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines

This is one page that I've stared to convert to the newer format. It is not done by a longshot, but it does show the basics to the format we'd like to use.
As for editing a wiki, this page has been invaluable to me when it comes to formatting and understanding the basics of editing a wiki.
<(^_^)>
I'm guessing things in Game Mechanics can link to other sub-pages of Game Mechanics? For example, in a Kirby game, I can have it split off a page for each ability, going into the mechanics, advice, and damage values for that ability?
Yes
Good question.  For the time being, I'd like to have game mechanics all on one page.  We'll want to find the right balance between having pages for everything which will become too link heavy and having one page overflowing.  If you look at the Contra page, there is quite of things to cover with mechanics, but it links off into video explanations and a google docs.  This allows the mechanics page to cover a lot of detail without getting too cluttered.
<(^_^)>
Uh.. it's going to be ridiculously cluttered if all ability information is on one page <_< I personally think it's best if the pages branch off, but eh
Edit history:
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:52:46 pm
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:51:43 pm
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:47:08 pm
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:46:48 pm
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:46:13 pm
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 10:46:01 pm
Yes
I'd be willing to compromise on this a bit if the pages linked off from within the mechanics page, but I'd like to try the single page layout design first for mechanics.  The reason is because the sectional formatting can break up the content neatly into sections and subsections and everything will be linked at the top.  The KB is built in Media Wiki and I'd like to take advantage of some of the organizational tools that its formatting gives us.  I know that this layout can work with games that have mechanics that aren't too terribly complex.  I'd like to see how it handles some of the more complex games and if it doesn't work within the wiki formatting, we'll look for the best way to break it up.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-12 11:24:33 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-12 11:22:35 pm
<(^_^)>
Well one page for an ability would have information like this - https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Kirby%27s_Return_to_Dream_Land/Ability_Info/Ninja

Granted it's not properly polished or formatted, but it's a lot of information, and I haven't added the general tips for it yet either. Add on about 22 other pages like this... Yeah, I'm not sure if having 23 of these on one page is a good idea <_< I just personally think it's best to split it neatly for each ability from the mechanics page.
Edit history:
Mr. K: 2013-06-12 11:36:57 pm
Yes
Yikes.  Okay I see what you mean now.  Yeah so for the kind of analysis you've got here, I'd definitely agree.  It's too complex to be in the mechanics page and it needs to be its own thing.  Refer to it in the mechanics page and link to the other pages that you've made with that content.  I've updated my first post to address your scenario.
Edit:  Excellent work with your game page!
Edit history:
Paraxade: 2013-06-13 04:22:44 am
Paraxade: 2013-06-13 04:17:29 am
Hey, excellent work on all this. I have one suggestion:

Quote from Mr. K:
->(Optional) casual speedrunning section
- If there are safe strats or route changes that are suboptimal, but make the game much easier to speedrun for casual players they can be documented here
- Expectation of main category page is to list the fastest route or the best techniques


This seems weird to me, particularly if you want the KB to be used by the entire speedrunning community and not just SDA. Organizing it so that the main category page can only talk about the fastest route and best techniques is a very SDA-centric approach. Alternate strategies and safe strats can be incredibly useful to know for races and marathons, they're not strictly for casual players. I think a structure that would work better would be one where everything relevant to one section of a game can be displayed next to each other, where it's easy to find information about whatever part of the game you're looking at rather than having it spread across several different pages. If nothing else, the "casual" section should be called something else.

I imagine it's very difficult to figure out a decent layout for this sort of thing in mediawiki though so either way, really well done. I'll try to see if there's anything I can write up sometime soon.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-13 08:17:22 am
<(^_^)>
Is there any way to delete pages? I can't seem to move the pages I want to move, so I've settled for creating new pages with the same content for now and deleting the content in the old pages, but I can't figure out a way to actually delete the old pages :S (I also keep derping and making mistakes with creating new pages <_< )

Hopefully I'm not cluttering this up with stupid questions... Maybe you can put up how to delete pages in the first post?
SEGA Junkie
You can use "move" up in the top bar to move content from an old link to a new one. That should cause the old page to redirect to the new one as well.
Edit history:
KennyMan666: 2013-06-13 09:48:26 am
Precursor
Wouldn't it be better to have subpages? So that instead of separate pages with names like "Contra game mechanics and glitches", it would be "Contra/Game mechanics and glitches", so all pages pertaining to Contra would have the main Contra page as a parent. We did a thing like that (going from having the "parent" name in all articles related to it to just having them be subpages) on another wiki I'm participating at and it really makes things nicer.

I am liking that the knowledge base is growing, or what to call it. Probably going to make an Ufouria page, especially with all the new stuff that has been found by me and Aglar recently.
just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it
what about games where there are mulitple categoires due to difficutly (i.e star fox assault) would you like pages separate or include details on all 3 categories on the same sub page (like i could explain mission strats for each level and then sub head the difficutly for neater format since most missions will be very similar but would need an image detailing objectives)
Exoray
Agreeing that separating "casual" tricks on different pages would not be such a good idea. If a trick was obsoleted by some other trick or route change then you would have to edit things in two places instead of just one and it would turn into a hassle moving tricks around (sometimes back and forth even).

It might also be a good idea to avoid refering a particular route in a trick description. Things like "This is heavily used in the any% route" might not be accurate if the route changes at some point. Manually keeping things like this in sync is difficult and just creates extra work for anyone wanting to contribute with strategy.
Edit history:
Mr. K: 2013-06-13 12:01:49 pm
Yes
Paraxade - Thanks!  And thank you for your comments on the casual speedrunning section.  I've given it some thought and here's why I'd like to keep it or have something like it.  The category pages are catering to what strategies would be needed to achieve the best known time for a game.  Not everyone who speedruns goes for the best known time for a game, but I do think that the pursuit of that is something common to a lot of runners in the communities.  As a speedrunner develops in her or his game the idea is that more of these strategies get incorporated into the route the person uses.  When we say what are the optimal strategies for a game, we have a clear understanding of what that is.  If I say, what are the strategies for marathons or casual speedrunning or racing, it varies widely based on how safe is safe for a race or a marathon.  What's safe for one runner might not be safe for another.  You can certainly include some alternative tricks in the main category pages because those may very well be used in an actual run.  My concern is that if you're including too many there comes a point where it makes sense to just make a new route that's easier for people who are learning the game just to race on SRL or just for a marathon. 


Kennyman - Would you mind providing me a link to this other wiki?
Zewing - Difficulties constitute separate categories for most games and so they'd have their own pages.  So an easy any % would have its page and a hard any % would have its page. 
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-13 12:36:22 pm
<(^_^)>
https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Kirby%27s_Return_to_Dream_Land/Ability_Info/Ninja that I provided before is an example of what Kennyman was talking about. The old KRtDL page had a main page branching into ability_info, which branched into the Ninja page, and you can return to the main or ability info page easily from the top of the page. I was wondering why this format wasn't used

(The Main Page link doesn't quite work anymore since I've changed it around to match the current format... these are just leftover pages)
Edit history:
Lenophis: 2013-06-13 01:26:00 pm
0-10
I'm not entirely sure the FF page is compatible with this new format. For one, the staff is insisting that there's only ever going to be one category, citing "we can't change the rules" and "not enough runners," and etc etc. It's always a fight here, and one I am sick of fighting.

I suppose that brings up a general question then. What about games that will only ever have 1 category? Seems kinda wasteful to create clicking and red tape just to say "any%" to go to the next page. The automated "welcome to x, please listen to our options as they have recently changed" recordings you hear when you call for any kind of technical support. They get kind of annoying. :p
Edit history:
KennyMan666: 2013-06-13 01:24:36 pm
KennyMan666: 2013-06-13 01:24:05 pm
Precursor
Quote from Mr. K:
Kennyman - Would you mind providing me a link to this other wiki?

Sure, it's the Touhou Wiki. It's also video games!

If I remember the page naming scheme we used to use before I suggested the grand subpage movement, this page that is now "Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Gameplay" was once upon a time "Perfect_Cherry_Blossom:_Gameplay". There's not even any difference in name length, and now it automagically has a link back to the main Perfect Cherry Blossom page at the top. Also lets you, as kirbymastah's link shows, nest subpages where it makes sense. For instance, Perfect Cherry Blossom/Story that then goes into Perfect Cherry Blossom/Story/Prologue, with automagic links back to both Perfect Cherry Blossom and Story at the top. I don't even remember what kind of clumsy naming scheme we used for that before we had subpages. Makes navigating easier, and lets you put everything that goes together in one "box", so to speak. And all the pages can get easily collected in one place with a category. Of course, you can do the same with categories without subpages, but for maximum ease of use and better navigation there's no reason to not have both.
Precursor
Looking at the source of the Contra page as a base for building the Ufouria page, why are you using the wiki code for linking to external pages to link to other pages within the wiki itself?

"[[Contra_any_%|Any %]] is functionally identical to "[https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Contra_any_%25 Any %]" and looks much more sane. Well, if you want the any% link to still be in italics, you do ''[[Contra_any_%|Any %]]''. But yeah.
Edit history:
mike89: 2013-06-14 03:36:21 am
mike89: 2013-06-14 03:29:54 am
SEGA Junkie
I seem to remember that not working when I tried it, but let me give it a go on the Sonic 2 page.

Oh, it's because the internal link is double brackets. Derp.

While I'm at it, subpages make good sense now I can see the advantage (linking back to the main page, which is something I wanted to work out how to do in any case), so I'm going to restructure Sonic 2 to use them now.
The Dork Knight himself.
Kirby: that subpage format from the Return to Dreamland page you posted is something I'd like to implement, but unfortunately since I'm still new to wiki editing (as are a lot of us) I don't know how to do it. Any chance you could give a quick explanation on how to setup the pages to do that?
<(^_^)>
Basically just follow what kenny said.

[[game title/subpage/subsubpage/etc | Name of the page]]
This might also be of interest for people wanting to edit the KB in terms of formatting: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents#For_editors
Or if you people like, I can also write up a quick "Help" type page with the basics. I have years of experience with MediaWiki, so I can probably answer a bunch of questions.