New consoles

CannibalK9

Edit history:

CannibalK9: 2005-12-02 09:58:29 pm

2005-12-02 09:58:09 pm

give me your eyes!!!

Yeah, can someone tell me what the deal is with 'European Extreme' on mgs. As a european player I can't complain, but why did they do it.
They couldn't have had the idea mid-way through release, and certainly not 2 times in a row.
Is it because it sounds good, alliteration and all Huh?

American/Japanese players include the best players so what is happening?
I'm not over-interested or confused btw, I've just always wondered.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-02 11:00:35 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

There's some genres of games that have really advanced over the years, but others have peaked at a certain point...

Platformers peaked in the SNES era and although the 3-D landscapes add a lot to the genre, no 3-D Sonic game has yet to really show anywhere near as many of the different route options that the 2-D Sonic games offered. Mario, although having a hugely awesome translation to 3-D, I still felt Super Mario World was the superior entry in the series. Almost all of the 2-D platformers I know didn't have anywhere near as strong gameplay in their 3D iliterations with a few exceptions. Mostly Mario.

I'll agree, the platformer genre has been declining recently (which makes me a sad, sad panda T_T), but I have to say, the Mario transition not only set an incredibly high standard for 3D platformers (which I still maintain hasn't been matched by anyone), but it introduced so much to Mario's abilities that it makes his older outings seem stagnant (to me, at least).

I will admit this major aspect, though. Mario 64 doesn't have the enemy threat level as his 2D games did. There aren't as many, they can be easily avoided, Mario's mobility VASTLY exceeds theirs so even if he is forced into their path, it's such a small task to circumvent the threat that it's really irrelevant. Mario 64 would have been quite possibly just as good of a game without any enemies present at all. It's a major change for the genre, to be sure. I'm not convinced it's a bad one, however.

I do grant that it definitely can lead to contention between fans over which era was superior between the 2D and 3D ages. Maybe the Revolution will see us with a full fledged 3D Mario game where the enemies and stage hazards (not just falling to your doom, I'm talking motion-sensitive Thwomps and timed celieng collapses, etc, like in the old games) bear the same challenge that they did on the SNES. Then again, if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I can't honestly say I'd mind, so long as the level design is inspired and the platforming challenges are new and interesting.

[quote]There's some genres of games that have really advanced over the years, but others have peaked at a certain point...

Platformers peaked in the SNES era and although the 3-D landscapes add a lot to the genre, no 3-D Sonic game has yet to really show anywhere near as many of the different route options that the 2-D Sonic games offered.  Mario, although having a hugely awesome translation to 3-D, I still felt Super Mario World was the superior entry in the series.  Almost all of the 2-D platformers I know didn't have anywhere near as strong gameplay in their 3D iliterations with a few exceptions.  Mostly Mario.[/quote]

I'll agree, the platformer genre has been declining recently (which makes me a sad, sad panda T_T), but I have to say, the Mario transition not only set an incredibly high standard for 3D platformers (which I still maintain hasn't been matched by anyone), but it introduced so much to Mario's abilities that it makes his older outings seem stagnant (to me, at least).

I will admit this major aspect, though.  Mario 64 doesn't have the enemy threat level as his 2D games did.  There aren't as many, they can be easily avoided, Mario's mobility VASTLY exceeds theirs so even if he is forced into their path, it's such a small task to circumvent the threat that it's really irrelevant.  Mario 64 would have been quite possibly just as good of a game without any enemies present at all.  It's a major change for the genre, to be sure.  I'm not convinced it's a bad one, however.

I do grant that it definitely can lead to contention between  fans over which era was superior between the 2D and 3D ages.  Maybe the Revolution will see us with a full fledged 3D Mario game where the enemies and stage hazards (not just falling to your doom, I'm talking motion-sensitive Thwomps and timed celieng collapses, etc, like in the old games) bear the same challenge that they did on the SNES.  Then again, if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I can't honestly say I'd mind, so long as the level design is inspired and the platforming challenges are new and interesting.

Yoshi348

2005-12-03 12:15:12 am

dinosaur from the past

Well, much of the problem there is that most Mario enemies generally don't shoot stuff at you, and ramming into you attacks are far less effective in 3D than in 2D, because you can go around them. In 2D the only way to get past an enemy is in a direction affected by gravity.

Psychochild

2005-12-03 05:03:16 am

Quote:

I will admit this major aspect, though. Mario 64 doesn't have the enemy threat level as his 2D games did. There aren't as many, they can be easily avoided, Mario's mobility VASTLY exceeds theirs so even if he is forced into their path, it's such a small task to circumvent the threat that it's really irrelevant. Mario 64 would have been quite possibly just as good of a game without any enemies present at all. It's a major change for the genre, to be sure. I'm not convinced it's a bad one, however.

May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels? They were one of the game's shining moments, which introduced a moderate to large sized 3-D level with tons and tons of obstacles. They were single-handedly some of the hardest levels in the game, and they just went to town on the level design in itself. We weren't looking at a huge green field like Bob-Omb Battle Field, or a safe little playground that was Whomp's Fortress, or something else of the sort. We were on a narrow platform thousands of feet in the air, with all sorts of small floating star shaped islands to jump across, tons of cubes to have to jump over, blocks trying to knock you off the platform and ones you had to stay on without falling off.....

It's good stuff. They could've made an entire game, and I'd be right there to pick it up come release day.

There's some games that handled the enemy issue well and have a strong emphasis on this combat. Jak 2/3, Ratchet and Clank are good examples of 3D platformers that focus on the action vs. the exploration aspects of Mario 64. You can call them the two extremes of the 3-D Platforming spectrum. Of course, you're not going to find huge deep worlds that feature this kind of combat, but eh.

[quote]
I will admit this major aspect, though.  Mario 64 doesn't have the enemy threat level as his 2D games did.  There aren't as many, they can be easily avoided, Mario's mobility VASTLY exceeds theirs so even if he is forced into their path, it's such a small task to circumvent the threat that it's really irrelevant.  Mario 64 would have been quite possibly just as good of a game without any enemies present at all.  It's a major change for the genre, to be sure.  I'm not convinced it's a bad one, however. [/quote]

May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels?  They were one of the game's shining moments, which introduced a moderate to large sized 3-D level with tons and tons of obstacles.  They were single-handedly some of the hardest levels in the game, and they just went to town on the level design in itself.  We weren't looking at a huge green field like Bob-Omb Battle Field, or a safe little playground that was Whomp's Fortress, or something else of the sort.  We were on a narrow platform thousands of feet in the air, with all sorts of small floating star shaped islands to jump across, tons of cubes to have to jump over, blocks trying to knock you off the platform and ones you had to stay on without falling off.....

It's good stuff.  They could've made an entire game, and I'd be right there to pick it up come release day.

There's some games that handled the enemy issue well and have a strong emphasis on this combat.  Jak 2/3, Ratchet and Clank are good examples of 3D platformers that focus on the action vs. the exploration aspects of Mario 64.  You can call them the two extremes of the 3-D Platforming spectrum.  Of course, you're not going to find huge deep worlds that feature this kind of combat, but eh.

Mkt2015

2005-12-03 10:17:36 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Quote:

May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels? They were one of the game's shining moments, which introduced a moderate to large sized 3-D level with tons and tons of obstacles. They were single-handedly some of the hardest levels in the game, and they just went to town on the level design in itself. We weren't looking at a huge green field like Bob-Omb Battle Field, or a safe little playground that was Whomp's Fortress, or something else of the sort. We were on a narrow platform thousands of feet in the air, with all sorts of small floating star shaped islands to jump across, tons of cubes to have to jump over, blocks trying to knock you off the platform and ones you had to stay on without falling off.....

I completely agree with you on this...heck, I think Super Mario 64 would've been 10x better if it had had that kind of platforming in it. To heck with stupid jumping into paintings crap. Just have a hundred levels of that platforming stuff. Good good ... good stuff.

[quote] May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels?  They were one of the game's shining moments, which introduced a moderate to large sized 3-D level with tons and tons of obstacles.  They were single-handedly some of the hardest levels in the game, and they just went to town on the level design in itself.  We weren't looking at a huge green field like Bob-Omb Battle Field, or a safe little playground that was Whomp's Fortress, or something else of the sort.  We were on a narrow platform thousands of feet in the air, with all sorts of small floating star shaped islands to jump across, tons of cubes to have to jump over, blocks trying to knock you off the platform and ones you had to stay on without falling off.....[/quote]

I completely agree with you on this...heck, I think Super Mario 64 would've been 10x better if it had had that kind of platforming in it. To heck with stupid jumping into paintings crap. Just have a hundred levels of that platforming stuff. Good good ... good stuff.

CannibalK9

2005-12-03 11:18:05 am

give me your eyes!!!

But, I'm sure the market for pure platformers has gone down (I absolutely adore a really good platformer just so ya know).
My friends all hate them unreasonably, maybe to do with cliches, 'You need to make some very difficult jumps all the way to the top of here. Oh dear you fell off. Start again. Oh dear you fell off etc.'
The Ratchet and Clank/Jak and Daxter games have got great action/shooting stuff, but a really good platform area gives me a big smile every time, I simply enjoy the challenge and I'm good at it.
Maybe that's the problem, you can aim a mouse or scroll through actions, but a complicated series of quick-timings and specific button presses seem beyond some people. Then again I absolutely 100% suck at fps, so I need my own facet.

For now I think I'll just stay addicted to WoW, 'Die you stupid raptor! Eat staff and fucking die! Nooo, ganking bastard. Don't corpse camp...goddammit he is. That's it, "can someone help me kill this stupid horde", hahaha not so funny now is it. Run, run, oops, was that a critical shadow bolt. It was wasn't it!!! Mwahaha *has a party on dead body* good times...sleep now...

But, I'm sure the market for pure platformers has gone down (I absolutely adore a really good platformer just so ya know).
My friends all hate them unreasonably, maybe to do with cliches, 'You need to make some very difficult jumps all the way to the top of here. Oh dear you fell off. Start again. Oh dear you fell off etc.'
The Ratchet and Clank/Jak and Daxter games have got great action/shooting stuff, but a really good platform area gives me a big smile every time, I simply enjoy the challenge and I'm good at it.
Maybe that's the problem, you can aim a mouse or scroll through actions, but a complicated series of quick-timings and specific button presses seem beyond some people. Then again I absolutely 100% suck at fps, so I need my own facet.

For now I think I'll just stay addicted to WoW, 'Die you stupid raptor! Eat staff and fucking die! Nooo, ganking bastard. Don't corpse camp...goddammit he is. That's it, "can someone help me kill this stupid horde", hahaha not so funny now is it. Run, run, oops, was that a critical shadow bolt. It was wasn't it!!! Mwahaha *has a party on dead body* good times...sleep now...

illuminated

2005-12-03 05:24:38 pm

For now I think I'll just stay addicted to WoW, 'Die you stupid raptor! Eat staff and fucking die! Nooo, ganking bastard. Don't corpse camp...goddammit he is. That's it, "can someone help me kill this stupid horde", hahaha not so funny now is it. Run, run, oops, was that a critical shadow bolt. It was wasn't it!!! Mwahaha *has a party on dead body* good times...sleep now...[/quote]

Seek help.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-03 08:28:53 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels?

Oh, I didn't forget. I loved those areas, hands down my favorite part of the game. If Mario 64 had those, with the more varied range of jumps Mario had in that game, I would have been so sold. That's why I said I wasn't convinced that an enemy-less platformer would be a bad thing. XD

That said, I am aware of Jak 2/3 and the Ratchet games. I actually love the Ratchet games, though admittedly most of that enjoyment comes from the characterization and visual style more than the gameplay... I don't care much for the combat aspects of those games (speaking strictly of Ratchet. I've never played any of the Jak games). They're well done, certainly, but they come at the cost of more solid platforming, and levels that have more demanding obstacles beyond enemy count. I prefer Mario style struggles against an environment than Ratchet-style battles against enemies.

That said, I would die a happy man if in the next 3D Mario game they brought back Bowser castle levels. Specifically the end rush from the first game. Storming the castle with Bowser's whole dang army rushing you and trying to bring you down before you get to the nerve center itself. That would be absurdly cool.

[quote]

May I remind you of Super Mario Sunshine's F.L.U.D.D.less levels?[/quote]

Oh, I didn't forget.  I loved those areas, hands down my favorite part of the game.  If Mario 64 had those, with the more varied range of jumps Mario had in that game, I would have been so sold.  That's why I said I wasn't convinced that an enemy-less platformer would be a bad thing.  XD

That said, I am aware of Jak 2/3 and the Ratchet games.  I actually love the Ratchet games, though admittedly most of that enjoyment comes from the characterization and visual style more than the gameplay...  I don't care much for the combat aspects of those games (speaking strictly of Ratchet.  I've never played any of the Jak games).  They're well done, certainly, but they come at the cost of more solid platforming, and levels that have more demanding obstacles beyond enemy count.  I prefer Mario style struggles against an environment than Ratchet-style battles against enemies.

That said, I would die a happy man if in the next 3D Mario game they brought back Bowser castle levels.  Specifically the end rush from the first game.  Storming the castle with Bowser's whole dang army rushing you and trying to bring you down before you get to the nerve center itself.  That would be absurdly cool.

DK64_MASTER

2005-12-04 12:15:54 am

Your talking about the end rush in Super Mario World?

Where you have to go through 2 chambers, and then that dark room to get to Bowser?

That was awesome, but they should make it longer :).

HeroPenguin

2005-12-05 06:27:11 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

No, the FIRST game, DK. SMB, no World. the NES game. the 8-1 through 8-4 levels. that had a number of jumps that could only be made when running at max speed and by jumping at the last brick, as well as stacked Hammer Bros to get by and bullet bill cannon forests at pretty much all levels at once, and other such nonsense. Those levels were the stuff of nightmares, and if they could pull off the same kind of "OMFG I'M SO DEAD RUN!!!" feeling they gave you (or at least gave most people who hadn't already burned through them so many times) in 3D... well, there wouldn't be a whole lot more for them to accomplish. Cheesy

DK64_MASTER

2005-12-05 06:39:21 am

Ahh, now I get it. I loved those levels, yet hated them so much for mocking me. Oh, I'm at the flag, whoops, there's a pit at the flag! Grin

I just wish I had a working NES on me. I'll wait for the Rev, though.

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2005-12-06 10:10:24 pm

2005-12-06 10:07:57 pm

Zelda Scientist®

Rev. it looks very nice, and the new controller, if managed and implemented correctly, will destroy all. I honestly think if they added it's functionality to the n64 games you could dl I'd ... well, I don't even know... anyways, at first I liked the 360 (was always a fan of the DC controller and since, the xbox controller which mimiced it and added another joystick), though after seeing the rev controller and finding out how it works (at first I thought nintendo had lost it... "where's the buttons?") I can easily say it is the most anticipated release that I look forward to. Especially with smash at launch w/ has online... oh jeeze. my life (as of non-gaming) will soon come to an abrupt halt. X-box 360 games: $60. X-Box 360 on ebay: $2700. To see someone pay $2700 for a 360 and then have it overheat and not play games... priceless.

as for strategy games, I say screw starcraft (braces for trolling), not as in I don't like it, but as in I found a game that was released around the same time, known as KKND2 Krossfire to be MUCH more fun and fast paced. I advise checking it out for any strategy game players who haven't played it.

Oh, and when the disks overheat on Lan, the game goes haywire! You're blowing up his stuff on your screen, but it's still there on his killing your stuff while your motorcylces seemingly can't be attacked by ground troops and are being counted as air vehicles... and then you see the turrets start shooting them but you don't care because it's all madness! you don't know whether or not what you are seeing is even real. That is a strategy game. One where the strats might even involve intentionally ... ~ahemm heating your disk before the match and/or planning for disk heats by using crappy drives in order to add to the psychological mind games that can be brought to the table as the game develops. Of course, such mind games prove to be a double edged sword and you must wield them selectively.

Rev. it looks very nice, and the new controller, if managed and implemented correctly, will destroy all. I honestly think if they added it's functionality to the n64 games you could dl I'd ... well, I don't even know... anyways, at first I liked the 360 (was always a fan of the DC controller and since, the xbox controller which mimiced it and added another joystick), though after seeing the rev controller and finding out how it works (at first I thought nintendo had lost it... "where's the buttons?") I can easily say it is the most anticipated release that I look forward to. Especially with smash at launch w/ has online... oh jeeze. my life (as of non-gaming) will soon come to an abrupt halt. X-box 360 games: $60. X-Box 360 on ebay: $2700. To see someone pay $2700 for a 360 and then have it overheat and not play games... priceless.

as for strategy games, I say screw starcraft (braces for trolling), not as in I don't like it, but as in I found a game that was released around the same time, known as KKND2 Krossfire to be MUCH more fun and fast paced. I advise checking it out for any strategy game players who haven't played it.

Oh, and when the disks overheat on Lan, the game goes haywire! You're blowing up his stuff on your screen, but it's still there on his killing your stuff while your motorcylces seemingly can't be attacked by ground troops and are being counted as air vehicles... and then you see the turrets start shooting them but you don't care because it's all madness! you don't know whether  or not what you are seeing is even real. That is a strategy game. One where the strats might even involve intentionally ... ~ahemm heating your disk before the match and/or planning for disk heats by using crappy drives in order to add to the psychological mind games that can be brought to the table as the game develops. Of course, such mind games prove to be a double edged sword and you must wield them selectively.

Radioactive Jellyfish

2005-12-07 01:57:45 am

Isn't it cute?

It seems like the controler isn't all there is about the Revolution. They're saying on gamespot that more stuff will be announced at E3.

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2005-12-08 09:28:15 pm

2005-12-08 08:22:14 pm

Zelda Scientist®

you've got to be kidding. Shocked

If they had one more BIG surprise I would probably poop my pants :).
They could just mean Smash Bros and some feature it has like Match Recording or something though.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-09 02:43:47 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

From rumors I've heard, E3 is supposed to be the big unveiling of the games that will launch with Revolution. Nintendo has said that they're not going to be showing any media for any projects until they are at a functional stage. So the first time we see next-gen Smash, Zelda, Mario, and Metroid, they'll be in full action and we'll be getting impressions of how they handle. No more speculation there, or at least nothing on anything new.

Of course, by all means the unveiling could happen sooner, especially if Nintendo plans on releasing the Rev before May. Time will tell.

Yoshi348

2005-12-09 05:04:21 am

dinosaur from the past

Maybe Smash, but not the others. Games take so much work nowadays that you're not going to see those big titles at launch anymore. Plus the Zelda people aren't even done with TP!

HeroPenguin

2005-12-09 07:22:12 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Note I didn't say we'd see them all at launch. Though you are probably right, it's unlikely that we'll see Mario, Zelda, and Metroid fully playable as their first incarnation in the media. Although I wouldn't necessarily doubt that Metroid will be a launch title. Retro is reportedly hard at work on it already, so with any luck, it'll jump out right away. Same goes for Mario, though I ahve less hope for that one (Please, Nintendo? please?) Zelda, on the other hand... definitely not.

Lag.Com

2005-12-09 08:32:21 am

sda loyalist

Ugh. I'd prefer they make a new character. Reuse is cute, but it gets annoying when they feature in Platformers, Racers, Beat 'em ups, Puzzles, Sports Sims AND Scrolling shooters.

DigiMe

2005-12-09 11:42:45 am

To get back to the original topic, I would have to say, the ps3, if only for some of the games that will be on that console. least favorite would be the 360, its a piece of crap imho.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-09 07:56:18 pm

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

Quote:

Ugh. I'd prefer they make a new character. Reuse is cute, but it gets annoying when they feature in Platformers, Racers, Beat 'em ups, Puzzles, Sports Sims AND Scrolling shooters.

You're just mad because Mario's more accomplished than you. XP

And you forgot pinball. XD

Lag.Com

2005-12-09 07:59:06 pm

sda loyalist

Yeah, I forgot pinball. :-/
It's all very effective marketing and all, but unless it actually adds anything to the character(s) in question, it's greed in yo' face.

HeroPenguin

2005-12-10 05:44:59 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

No, it's simple strategy. Nintendo's always been a franchise- and innovation-driven company, and particularly in today's market, the franchises need to be pushed to compete. Microsoft and Sony get the third party developers with a higher reliability than Nintendo does.

Besides that, it isn't purely a money-grubbing enterprise. All mario games to date, or at least a vast majority have been heavily infused with the flavor of the setting. A mario racing game is different than any other racing game, and a mario sports game is unique in the way it handles the sport in question. They're not simple games with Mario stuck inside of them (I'm ignoring third party games that feature Mario and company within them. they just don't count.), they truly are mario games.

Radioactive Jellyfish

2005-12-13 09:57:19 pm

Isn't it cute?

Hey! Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga was produced by Alphadream. At it's a great game!

HeroPenguin

2005-12-14 04:24:41 am

Rock on, Earthbound. Rock on.

No no, you misunderstand me. That's a mario game made by a third company. SSX3 is a third company game that has mario and luigi as playable characters in it that are completely out of context. The latter is what I was referencing, not the former.

Radioactive Jellyfish

2005-12-14 12:32:32 pm

Isn't it cute?

Ok. Sorry. Misunderstood. 8)