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AquaTiger: 2010-01-10 05:17:08 pm
Never give up!
The actual run is finished, but we've only timed up to the start of Chapter 2.  All times include loading times, and are estimated, so SDA timing is going to be faster than what I have.

1:    2:18 (redone, posting new time later)
2:    1:47 (redone, posting new time later)
3:    3:07
4:    1:02
5:    1:18
6:    1:57
7:    2:17
8:    1:55
9 :  4:04
10:  1:20
11:  1:48
12:  0:28
13:  1:14
14:  2:13
15:  2:21
16:  2:02
17:  1:35
18:  0:35


So we're at 33:21 so far.

Based on that I doubt this is going to be a sub-hour affair, but hold out hope - this will pick up a LOT after the first chapter.

Running this with a half-orc monk, it turns out - the speed boost and the unarmed damage is immensely helpful.

Old Post:
This is a discussion for potential tricks that could be used to shave time in this game.  If it has the side effect of causing someone to speedrun this (even if it eventually IS me), so much the better.  I made a new thread for this because the only one I found was in the 'old forum' listing.

First off, the obvious: Avoid as many fights as possible - the experience is quite meager and you might just get yourself killed (although dying in this game is kinda like dying in difficulties past Normal in Diablo 2 - you lose a little experience, some money, and respawn in a safe spot).  This is not as hard as it sounds, actually.

Originally in this first post, I said the rogue was the optimum class for Persuade, Tumble, and Open Lock.  Well, it seems Open Lock is not necessary after all, and sufficient ranks of Persuade and Tumble can be bought through other classes.  Multiclass characters were tested as well, although it turns out they pale in comparison to the REAL optimum class.

That class, as discovered on page 5 of the topic, turns out to be a wizard.  It's even better with a specialization in Illusion, since the forbidden spells aren't all that useful in reality.

I don't have much else to say just yet, so I'd like other people to contribute their ideas.
Thread title:  
sda loyalist
You are saying some good things so far; try and find which chests/areas drop specific items which will help your character more than others. This information should be online somewhere, but I don't know where. Or you could always use the campaign editor to find them. This is the kind of planning that went into the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale runs, and this large game deserves the same!
You are probably right with your Rogue derivative, I also might suggest Human for an extra feat and more skill points to dump into Stealth etc.
The BaldurManiac
Quote:
This is the kind of planning that went into the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale runs,.

What about my baldur's gate 2 run? There was alot of planning, it was work, you didn't like it? shame on you shame on you all GROARRR
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2006-01-03 11:23:58 pm
Never give up!
Alright, so for purposes of a benchmark time I decided to breeze through the prelude.

And literally, it was just that.  I haven't considered the possibility of skipping Pavel (which sounds like it can be easily done), but regardless, more monster groups went for me than for him, even with Stealth mode on (both Hide AND Move Silently were maxed for the level I was at, by the by - I'm going through this mainly like a normal player) - probably not paying much attention to shadows (or just simply dumb luck, if shadows don't actually affect the Hide skill in the Neverwinter Nights system) was the reason.  I didn't get killed though.

My time turned out to be 10 minutes and 50 seconds, but I can't remember offhand whether that was Normal difficulty or D&D Hardcore difficulty (the latter of which is the second-highest).

I'll look up the stats I gave the character at creation and at the start of Chapter 1 in a bit, if people want to know.

One question I have, though: If someone installed both Shadows of Undrentine and Hordes of the Underdark, and had access to the prestige classes in both as a result, would those prestige classes be allowed for a speedrun of the NORMAL game's campaign (the game doesn't restrict their use other than character prerequisites if you have those two expansions - both of which are official - installed, though only certain classes are available in each expansion)?  If they are, I may consider a rogue/shadowdancer combination (for Hide in Plain Sight) - if not, it's probably going to be just the rogue class.

Edit: In the meantime, I took the same character through the prelude again, but aimed to skip much more - such as Pavel and several of the rooms I'd entered last time.  I got to 6 minutes and 58.84 seconds, but I still think the prelude can be done faster.  And I should note there is basically a 0% chance of going through the Academy undetected to my knowledge, so Tumble starts out much more important than Hide.
sda loyalist
Quote:
What about my baldur's gate 2 run?

I'm not going to list every game which included planning; you don't need to take omissions as an offense you know.

You are probably right about the Tumble over Move Silently, in fact you may want to consider taking the feats which allow you to move out of Opportunity attacks/threats easily over Focuses on the Stealth skills, because I feel there will be many situations where you cannot sneak around.
Sleeping Terror
Quote:
What about my baldur's gate 2 run? There was alot of planning, it was work, you didn't like it? shame on you shame on you all GROARRR


Sheesh, you already started one topic to complain about people not appreciating your run enough. Give it a rest.
The BaldurManiac
Quote:

Sheesh, you already started one topic to complain about people not appreciating your run enough. Give it a rest.

I know, sorry I won't do it again...

But if it can make you feel better, i was only joking around Tongue
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
You may want to consider alignment as well. A lot of the take-the-easy-way-out options are chaotic or evil (usually via conversation options), which is bad if you're lawful/good/neutral and if you're certain classes.
PwNzRd!
Knights of the Old Republic is somewhat like Neverwinter Nights (made by the same company), in that it is a D&D style game, so checking out the KotOR run might give you some clues to run this. I find many things similar in the fact that some chests help you out better than others in both games, and leveling/fighting is very similar as well.
It's-a me, Raven!
You might want to consider multiclassing into Monk for a few levels - Monks have Persuade, Hide, Tumble and Move Silent as class skills too, and they let you fight without the need for a weapon. That, and you get one more hit point per level on average. Shadowdancer is indeed a good wy to go, and I feel that both expansions shouldn't be restricted - it's like updating any other game, fixing bugs and adding some new options.
On a sidenote, indeed, NWN is based on the 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons ruleset. And SW:KotOR uses the "drive-camera-angle" version of the NWN engine.
GREAT!

The thread is new!

Question: the selected character type is chosen from the list and that means you can choose a level 15 hero?

Or it must be done with a hero that you create through the create hero wizzard? ---> level1, what sounds " :o"

If the hero may be selected among those level 15 ones, i think everyone has the right to choose whatever class he wants right?

You talk about rogue/monk - i prefer monk, but certainly any class is acceptible?

What video program is recommended?

Has NWN some demorecord function?
If no, then gamecam or fraps and virtuadub for compression...
$inner
Hmm, a fighter would be quite good as well (when running fails, taking out the enemies brutally always works), plus, coupled with cleave, most battles that you can't skip with multiple weak enemies should go by fast
Edit history:
Zanthra: 2006-01-06 04:10:21 am
I have only just found this web page a few days ago, and I have already become interested in the idea of dooing a speedrun myself.  One of the ones that came to mind was Neverwinter Nights.  I think that a multiclass Rogue/Monk would be a good idea, because it can let you fight effectively without large amounts of equipment.  However after watching DAMURDOC's BG2 run I have to wonder if Invisibility could be even more useful.

I think maybe a sorceror monk would be even more effective in that you can use invisibility and the run speed boost form the monk class, knock if you need it, but then you also become invulnerable to haste... Sad

Rogue
Pros: Lockpicking, Hide/Move Silently, Pick Pocketing, Average combat ability
Cons: Hide/Move Silently slows movement

Monk
Pros: Run Speed Boost, Effectiveness Independent of Equipment, Hide/Move Silently class skills, Descent combat ability
Cons: Canno't easially deal with locked doors, Invulnerable to haste

Sorceror (edited)
Pros: Invisibility, Hase, Knock, Familiar can come in handy
Cons: Does not get good spells until later, Lack of hitpoints and combat ability
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2006-01-06 05:28:59 am
Never give up!
....wow.  How could I have overlooked the Sorceror as a possibility?

Anyway, if you really go through with Sorceror/Monk, here are some suggestions:
-Get your sorceror levels right away - only 6 levels are required to get the spells I suspect you need, and I suggest going no farther than 8 levels in Sorceror.  I'll explain why it's even worth going that far later.
-With this setup, I suggest leaving Intelligence low, maybe as far down as 8, and never higher than 10.  Charisma should be 14 (if you feel it must be higher, do so, but most of the spells you NEED don't get that much boost from Charisma).  If you find yourself carrying a lot in your practice run(s) I suggest increasing Strength, but I think anything higher than 10 is probably not worth it.  Constitution should be at least 12 I'd think (for the hit points), and Dexterity and Wisdom are very crucial (Dexterity more so early on, Wisdom later once you get Monk levels).
-You might need your familiar to be combat-based - I'll look into this later but a panther or hell hound isn't a bad idea.
-Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor and Magic Missile are suggested 1st-level spells.
-Knock and Invisibility are of course going to be your 2nd-level spells, but if you go past level 6 and need another, I suggest Endurance - it'll let you survive longer.
-Haste is of course going to be your prime 3rd-level spell, but if you go past level 6, I recommend either Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Invisibility Sphere (handy if you need to make your familiar invisible at the same time), Slow, or maybe even Stinking Cloud - the first two are suggested for a heavier hit in pinch situations (I suspect fewer enemies are resistant to lightning than fire, but Fireball has a blast radius, so I think more research is required), and the last two are suggested to make running away a lot easier.
-If you decide to go all the way to level 8 in Sorceror, Improved Invisibility is pretty much your optimum spell in my opinion, since you can cast spells without losing that precious invisibility.  If you go this far though, I suggest replacing your 2nd-level Invisibility spell with Melf's Acid Arrow - I know it's not a heavy hitter, but when your spellcasting doesn't make your presence known by itself, that spell could be just enough to give you an edge.
-I'm not sure if it's going to be a challenge keeping your character lawful, but at the very least you won't have to care whether your character winds up good or evil.  I don't think certain familiars are off limits to certain alignments though - I suggest Lawful Neutral alignment at this time.

I'll come up with more when I think of it.
Edit history:
Zanthra: 2006-01-06 08:08:31 am
The main character that I orgionally did the game with was a sorceror, had a pixie familiar, not a heavy hitter at all, but did have the advantage that it could disable traps and unlock doors and chests.

So if I am going to do something like this, I am going to have to have a good plan written out step for step that I can follow, perhaps even a checklist to go through.  I will also want to break it up into sections, and go through each section with a test character to find everything I can skip and get the time down while still gathering the equipment I want.

I am still thinking on wether I should start sorceror or monk.  I am thinking that monk might be better beacuse with speed and tumble I can skip many a fight in the earlier zones, and quest XP should let me get enough levels to get the invis I will need later.

I want to start with character creation, so I need to decide on some stats that I think could be good, and then testplay a little with various starting classes, see what works and what doesest.

Breakdown of the stats, pro and con:

STR: Helps avoid pesky misses that take up seconds to retry, especially early in the game when I only have one attack.  Good for carrying equipment.
DEX: The stat that affects the tumble skill, giving better chance to avoid Attacks of Opprotunity while running past someone.
CON: Hitpoints.
INT: Could be usefull to have the extra skill points depending on the skills I want to take.
WIS: Good for avoiding getting hit by any mind affecting spells, confuse, hold, sleep...  Also +AC as a Monk.
CHA: This is the primary stats for socreror spells, but I only need just need 10 + spell level to cast it, puts it at 13 for the aforementioned spells.

Another question is Prologue or no?  I think prologue because having the extra couple of levels right from the get go, it may give me an easier time in the first zones.  I can probably get the prologue in with less than five minutes, so it really depends on if it saves me some time later.  I will have to try it each way.

All these things I will have to test, just to get to the start of the game.  Not sure if I have the dedication to see it throught, but so far I am in on trying.

I am going to try the prolouge and a few of the first quests with a Monk, hight strength and dex, moderate wis, low con int and chr, se how it does.
Never give up!
Regarding the Prologue: I consider it a normal part of the game just like the chapters are.  So I'd say yes, go with it.

Those two free levels will serve you quite well anyhow.

In any event, you've thought this through quite a bit.  I'll definitely be waiting to see how this turns out.
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2006-01-06 06:31:02 pm
What record progs will you use?
Does NWN has some demofunction?

If monk class is selected, is it fair that he gets boots of speed, what influences the game am most?
Edit history:
Lord_Booga: 2006-01-06 07:08:55 pm
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
AquaTiger: Alignment IS important, because all monks must be Lawful, and if they stray from that, you cannot gain levels as one until you get back to the original alignment.

Also, you could forgo slightly higher constitution in exchange for picking the 'Toughness' feat as soon as you can (at character creation?)
True.  Toughness may come in handy, and as I am starting with human in the test runs, I am always wondering on what feat to choose at the end of level three.  I am looking to get circle kick as soon as possible.

Note on HotU and SoU, I was planning on doing this with both installed and patched.  However if there are good reasons why not to do this, I will listen.

As to recording programs, or NWN demo mode, I have no idea on any of this.  I tried downloading game cam, but could not get it to work properly, so I could really use some help in this regard.
Avast.  I played quite a bit of NWN a while back, and, provided you do have the expansions, some of this could help out.

first off, the prologue is effortless, almost no fighting or talking if you do it right.  two big things are not talking to the two melee/bow instructors - just force-attack the melee one, and waltz by the bow guy nab a sling (sell the other things on the rack) and whip a bullet into the target, drop bullets to conserve carrying cap. you still have to talk to the head guy to agree to the melee training (if you're a fighter type, i'll get to that), but once you hit the two things, you can immediately go to the final chamber thingy.  all dialog in here can be cut through by using keyboard numbers to rapidly pick choices.

I'd say nab a Fighter/Monk, go for exotic proficiency and weapon prof. (scythe), nab power attack (for cleave) and cleave/great cleave as soon as possible.  the monk levels, mixed with a high Dex and Wis, will give you INSANE AC - in chapter 2 nothing could even touch me.  why the scythe? x4 crit.  it will blast anything in front of you to bits.  As for trying to luck manip crits? don't bother, just nab some speed/haste pots and carve things up.  these also have that benefit of making you move faster Tongue

also good is using monk levels to nab tumble - you want 15 total after armor penalties, this makes you immune to AoO.  also useful could be bard/rogue levels for Use Magic Device, this lets you use other classes' gear, scrolls, etc.  the usefulness of that should be obvious.

oh right, almost forgot the most important thing about the prologue!  the mages that summon goblins, there's a delay before they summon, use this and pausing to get around a corner before they spawn the goblins - they'll never see or attack you.

I'd go on, but my mind has blanked out and it's been a while since i played NWN. Tongue
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2006-01-07 11:47:11 am
Well, if gamecam won't go, it is only fraps then?
And after the video is made - compres it with virtualdub.
It's-a me, Raven!
Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Bard/Sorcerer... Booya Smiley
Monks recieve boots of speed at the begining.

Is it fair to speedrun with them?
It's-a me, Raven!
Why not? You're not cheating or anything... You wouldn't consider not running with a spellcaster because he can become invisible or summon creatures, right? Those boots are in there for a reason - to use them...
Edit history:
Artas1984: 2006-01-07 12:02:42 pm
Right!

Paladins recieve swords like "blessing of the daystar".

Clerics get rods like the one of "resurection", rings and wands...

And if monks get boots of speed, it is fair.
Also very good that monks get gloves with additional attack like "sonic + D6".

Basicaly having monk you don't need weapons at all if you get gloves like "fin fist".

Unless  you get very good kamas or handaxes like the ones "offhand + bloorusted axe".