Neverwinter Nights (v1.10) - currently in editing process

2006-01-07 12:03:52 pm

sda loyalist

I think taking a Sorceror/Monk sounds like the best idea; although having insane fighting ability (as suggested in the Fighter/Monk post) could be useful, there are a lot more enemies to run past than kill.
Of course, I could be wrong. Smiley

Invisibility helped me out greatly when I was playing the game normally... combined with my Panther, it allowed me to Sneak Attack anything I chose (that didn't have see invis) with devastating effects.

Zanthra

2006-01-07 07:09:38 pm

I don't know much about recording the video, but I sure know a lot about compressing it. I was thinking that I would just dig up my copy of Adobe Premiere from a couple years back and do touch up's and compression on that.

Monks are nice for running through places where I don't need to fight, but what about the times that I do need to make a stand against more powerful opponents. This is where a monk becomes more difficult. Picking up powerful potions whenever possible can help in that regard, but I would need some solid strategies for reliably defeating powerful opponents.

I am going to look into screen capturing software that runs in Linux. NWN is one of the few real games that has binaries avaliable to play under Linux, and the design of the Linux system may lend itself to screen captureing better than windows.

I may not be able to work on this much in the next few days as collage is starting again, and I will have some work to do, but I will try to get back to this when things settle down.

I don't know much about recording the video, but I sure know a lot about compressing it.  I was thinking that I would just dig up my copy of Adobe Premiere from a couple years back and do touch up's and compression on that.

Monks are nice for running through places where I don't need to fight, but what about the times that I do need to make a stand against more powerful opponents.  This is where a monk becomes more difficult.  Picking up powerful potions whenever possible can help in that regard, but I would need some solid strategies for reliably defeating powerful opponents.

I am going to look into screen capturing software that runs in Linux.  NWN is one of the few real games that has binaries avaliable to play under Linux, and the design of the Linux system may lend itself to screen captureing better than windows.

I may not be able to work on this much in the next few days as collage is starting again, and I will have some work to do, but I will try to get back to this when things settle down.

Artas1984

2006-01-08 07:52:23 am

Who said that about avoiding conversation with Pavel and the other? He He...

I am afraid the door won't open if you don't speak with them...

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-01-08 03:22:50 pm

2006-01-08 03:22:17 pm

Never give up!

Not the first one, Artas.

I was referring to when you have the option to take Pavel as a henchman in the prelude. You're not required to take him as one, and I don't recall if I even spoke with him then.

Raven75

2006-01-08 03:27:19 pm

It's-a me, Raven!

IIRC he runs up to you and forces a conversation...

AquaTiger

2006-01-08 06:39:16 pm

Never give up!

Yeah, I've been away from it a few days so my memory isn't perfect.

One piece of advice I DO have.... get those number keys some use during conversations - it'll make them go much faster. (What I mean is hit the number key before the statement rather than click on the statement.) You might also want to memorize all the conversation options and know what you're picking beforehand - you can blitz through the average conversation in less than twenty seconds if you do it right.

Twisted Synapse

2006-01-12 05:22:01 pm

Quote:

Monks are nice for running through places where I don't need to fight, but what about the times that I do need to make a stand against more powerful opponents. This is where a monk becomes more difficult. Picking up powerful potions whenever possible can help in that regard, but I would need some solid strategies for reliably defeating powerful opponents.

This is why you need either fighter or sorcerer levels - for pure damage vs things like bosses. The sorcerer is devastatingly powerful so long as you're willing to waste time resting every now and then. They also have many aoe spells to wreck whole rooms of enemies. The fighter on the other hand can get the scythe, which on a critical can deal 80-100 or more! Fighter levels also give you the best base attack bonus per level, which is a big deal because for every 6 base attack, you get an extra attack per round. more attacks per round = more chances to crit with that very powerful scythe. my fighter/monk wreaked untold havoc and brought some serious no-effort pain to bosses. only thing the crits don't work on are undead, which you'd want a +1 greatsword for if possible. Why the greatsword? it hits very hard, though it lacks the crit of the scythe - still stronger than most stuff you could get hold of.

Also, great cleave + greatsword/scythe? you'll mow through everything on your screen in a single round; no need to run away from/past weaker enemies like this. Also good for taking down the boss's swarm of minions in some cases.

Also, stat pots, USE THEM! that +4 boost to a stat is enormous - bull's strength pots can add up to 10 points to your crits with a scythe, and charisma pots will make a sorcerer's spells harder to resist. Also i'm sure everyone knows this, but int does not effect sorcerer spells in any way. A sorc should have 16+ cha and some persuade, persuade is obvious, but the higher cha gives you more spells per day.

[quote]Monks are nice for running through places where I don't need to fight, but what about the times that I do need to make a stand against more powerful opponents.  This is where a monk becomes more difficult.  Picking up powerful potions whenever possible can help in that regard, but I would need some solid strategies for reliably defeating powerful opponents.[/quote]

This is why you need either fighter or sorcerer levels - for pure damage vs things like bosses.  The sorcerer is devastatingly powerful so long as you're willing to waste time resting every now and then.  They also have many aoe spells to wreck whole rooms of enemies.  The fighter on the other hand can get the scythe, which on a critical can deal 80-100 or more!  Fighter levels also give you the best base attack bonus per level, which is a big deal because for every 6 base attack, you get an extra attack per round.  more attacks per round = more chances to crit with that very powerful scythe.  my fighter/monk wreaked untold havoc and brought some serious no-effort pain to bosses.  only thing the crits don't work on are undead, which you'd want a +1 greatsword for if possible.  Why the greatsword? it hits very hard, though it lacks the crit of the scythe - still stronger than most stuff you could get hold of.

Also, great cleave + greatsword/scythe? you'll mow through everything on your screen in a single round; no need to run away from/past weaker enemies like this.  Also good for taking down the boss's swarm of minions in some cases.

Also, stat pots, USE THEM!  that +4 boost to a stat is enormous - bull's strength pots can add up to 10 points to your crits with a scythe, and charisma pots will make a sorcerer's spells harder to resist. Also i'm sure everyone knows this, but [i]int does not effect sorcerer spells in any way[/i].  A sorc should have 16+ cha and some persuade, persuade is obvious, but the higher cha gives you more spells per day.

Raven75

2006-01-12 09:58:43 pm

It's-a me, Raven!

You and your scythe... FEH! Scythe base damage is only 2d4, and it crits only on a 20. OK, so it's x4. Stick with the greatswords - 2d6 at 19-20/x2, plus it gets more milage out of the Improved Critical feat (which doubles, yes, DOUBLES threat range). I'd rather have more crits with more base damage and a lower multiplier.
Speaking of damage - try a pure Monk. Damage dice g up as the Monk goes up in level - it starts at 1d6, and ends up with 1d20. Some Wis and Dex along with magic items will give you a grand ammount of AC, you can heal yourself, you'll become immune to diseases and poison, and you can even become ethereal at higher levels - which is great when fighting toughies: if you need some time to drink a potion without fear of getting your rear end booted to kingdom come, just step into the other plane of existence.
I've personally played through as a Fighter/Rogue, Barbarian, and Monk. I contemplated trying Monk/Cleric as well, but for some reason I'm just not keen on playing spellcasters - especially those that have spell memorization (go Sorc go!). The three characters I used all worked - even the Fighter/Rogue, functioning as an archer, did fine.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-04 08:20:39 pm

2006-04-04 01:41:20 pm

Never give up!

Okay.

At some point fairly soon, I plan on stress-testing the following character ideas:

-A Half-Orc Fighter/Monk (alternate levels - use either scythe or greatsword, and no armor)
-A Human Sorceror/Monk (start with getting 8 Sorceror levels then get Monk levels - use a spear, maybe switching to unarmed combat later; spell set should focus on maneuvering)
-An Elf Fighter/Rogue (alternate levels - use two one-handed weapons, and light armor)
-A Human Fighter/Sorceror (alternate levels, only go up to 6 in Sorceror - use scythe or greatsword and no armor; spell set should focus on combat, other than Invisibility of course)
-An Elf Rogue/Monk (alternate levels - use kama or unarmed combat, with no armor)

In order to do the stress test proper, I need to use some custom-built modules - one for combat, one for mainly maneuvering (including locked doors and traps), and a third for a combination of both. I've got the combat one lined up, but I don't know any good modules that fit the other two ideas I need.

Does anyone that has experience with NWN modules know any good ones (the only restriction is less than 6 hours to play through it) that focus on maneuvering or that focus on mixing combat and maneuvering?

Edit: Nevermind, I'm going to stress-test using the prelude and first chapter, taking notes on both as I do so. Watch this space.

Okay.

At some point fairly soon, I plan on stress-testing the following character ideas:

-A Half-Orc Fighter/Monk (alternate levels - use either scythe or greatsword, and no armor)
-A Human Sorceror/Monk (start with getting 8 Sorceror levels then get Monk levels - use a spear, maybe switching to unarmed combat later; spell set should focus on maneuvering)
-An Elf Fighter/Rogue (alternate levels - use two one-handed weapons, and light armor)
-A Human Fighter/Sorceror (alternate levels, only go up to 6 in Sorceror - use scythe or greatsword and no armor; spell set should focus on combat, other than Invisibility of course)
-An Elf Rogue/Monk (alternate levels - use kama or unarmed combat, with no armor)

In order to do the stress test proper, I need to use some custom-built modules - one for combat, one for mainly maneuvering (including locked doors and traps), and a third for a combination of both.  I've got the combat one lined up, but I don't know any good modules that fit the other two ideas I need.

Does anyone that has experience with NWN modules know any good ones (the only restriction is less than 6 hours to play through it) that focus on maneuvering or that focus on mixing combat and maneuvering?

Edit: Nevermind, I'm going to stress-test using the prelude and first chapter, taking notes on both as I do so.  Watch this space.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-05 03:06:41 am

2006-04-04 10:58:17 pm

Never give up!

Okay, sorry to double-post, but I have the results of the first part of the stress test - the prelude. Consider that I viewed an attempt as a failure if I died at all. Also consider I'm still rusty, so my times might be a bit inconsistent.

Here is what class combinations to which my focus has been narrowed for a stress-test using the first chapter (said test shall be done in five parts for each character) and the times I got with them on the prelude:

-Half-Orc Monk/Fighter: 8:26.53
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 8:50.91
-Elf Fighter/Rogue: 9:28.65
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 8:27.97
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 9:29.50
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 8:52.18
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 8:45.28

Notes for each Character:

(NOTE: 'Minimal' in the armor listing means using only armor that does not require a proficiency feat.)

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk (2 Fighter, 1 Monk):
==Weapon: Greatsword
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 16
==Dexterity: 14
==Constitution: 13
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 16
==Charisma: 6

-Human Sorceror/Monk (2 Sorceror, 1 Monk):
==Weapon: Unarmed
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 10
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 11
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 15
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Fighter/Rogue (2 Fighter, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Rapier x2
==Armor Type: Any (preferably Light)
==Strength: 11
==Dexterity: 18
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 11
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Sorceror/Fighter (2 Sorceror, 1 Fighter):
==Weapon: Greatsword
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 14
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 12
==Wisdom: 10
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Monk/Rogue (2 Monk, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Unarmed
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 11
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 10
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 16
==Charisma: 14

-Human Sorceror/Rogue (2 Sorceror, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Spear
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 12
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 14
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 10
==Charisma: 14

-Human Fighter/Sorceror (2 Fighter, 1 Sorceror):
==Weapon: Katana x2
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 16
==Dexterity: 15
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 9
==Charisma: 14

I ask for someone to take a look at those (these are the results at the end of the prelude) and give me some pointers based on that information. I could especially use information for levelling during the first chapter - for a projection, I expect to gain 1, possibly 2, but definitely no more than 3 levels during Chapter 1.

I also would like to ask whether timing would start during character creation or just after it.

Some other things to note:
-For the most part, especially with combinations that included the Sorceror, I had to gain the first two levels with the same class.
-The first treasure chest in the area behind the double doors right after meeting Aribeth tends to contain a Ring of Fortitude +1, unless the character's playing as the Rogue, in which case it will be Boots of Reflexes +1. The chest after that ALWAYS has 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds.
-The fights I got into were:
==The four mages that teleport in once you talk to Aribeth
==The Tough Goblin, 3-4 Weak Goblins, and 1-2 Skeletons right before the level-up dude
==The 4 Skeletons in the optional room at the end of the hall right after the level-up dude
==The 3 Weak Goblins further down that hall
==The big fight that includes the Mysterious Mage at the room right before the Stables
==The fight in the stables
-The reason I entered the side room and fought the 4 skeletons is because I needed to check what items were available in that room. It depends on what class your level-up was, but I don't remember the exact specifics. I'm considering skipping it unless I find I need the quick Gold.
-I believe it is actually faster to deal with the Arcane Magic training or Rogue training than the Combat training - and I'd say the Arcane Magic training is the most beneficial in terms of what you can get from it (one Magic Missile scroll, one Melf's Acid Arrow scroll - which I spend against the Mysterious Mage - and a Rod of Frost).
-What the Mysterious Mage drops upon his death also seems to be class-dependent.

So right now, judging from the prelude alone, the most promising choices are Monk/Fighter or Fighter/Sorceror. Which means armor isn't such a necessity, leaving me more gold to spend towards potions, scrolls (in the case of the Sorceror combo), or possibly new weapons. I also plan on getting Healer's Kits, and if I can get enough ranks in Open Lock I might get some Thieves' Tools. (Yes, even Sorceror combos get this - I can't rely exclusively on Knock, at least not for a while.)

I shall look further into this.

Edit: As far as the first chapter, the only quests I recommend doing are the mandatory ones, the quest where you're rewarded for actually killing Meldanen, and possibly the quest for the Masterson amulet in the Docks. The last two just require a little extra walking, that's it.

Also, I recommend doing the Peninsula first, then the Docks, then Beggar's Nest, and save the Blacklake district for last.

I can safely say the scythe is out of the question. The two-handed weapon of choice will be the greatsword. I had another idea, though - using two one-handed weapons instead. I chose rapiers for this purpose because they have the highest critical rate, although I do take suggestions for other potential paired one-handed weapons in this situation.

Other notes:
-Invisibility (even if it's from potions) and some spell resistance are pretty much required for a speedy run of Blacklake - this is why that area is currently last.
-Persuade and Tumble are indeed vital to doing Chapter 1 fast at all. Open Lock might be up for debate though, and adding Search to the list might reduce the sheer frustration of traps (this makes a bigger case for using an Elf).
-Expeditious Retreat is a 1st-level spell to consider. For the more combat-oriented sorcerors, I think that will replace whatever damage spell I had there.

Okay, sorry to double-post, but I have the results of the first part of the stress test - the prelude.  Consider that I viewed an attempt as a failure if I died at all.  Also consider I'm still rusty, so my times might be a bit inconsistent.

Here is what class combinations to which my focus has been narrowed for a stress-test using the first chapter (said test shall be done in five parts for each character) and the times I got with them on the prelude:

-Half-Orc Monk/Fighter: 8:26.53
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 8:50.91
-Elf Fighter/Rogue: 9:28.65
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 8:27.97
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 9:29.50
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 8:52.18
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 8:45.28

Notes for each Character:

(NOTE: 'Minimal' in the armor listing means using only armor that does not require a proficiency feat.)

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk (2 Fighter, 1 Monk):
==Weapon: Greatsword
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 16
==Dexterity: 14
==Constitution: 13
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 16
==Charisma: 6

-Human Sorceror/Monk (2 Sorceror, 1 Monk):
==Weapon: Unarmed
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 10
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 11
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 15
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Fighter/Rogue (2 Fighter, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Rapier x2
==Armor Type: Any (preferably Light)
==Strength: 11
==Dexterity: 18
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 11
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Sorceror/Fighter (2 Sorceror, 1 Fighter):
==Weapon: Greatsword
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 14
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 12
==Wisdom: 10
==Charisma: 14

-Elf Monk/Rogue (2 Monk, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Unarmed
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 11
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 10
==Intelligence: 9
==Wisdom: 16
==Charisma: 14

-Human Sorceror/Rogue (2 Sorceror, 1 Rogue):
==Weapon: Spear
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 12
==Dexterity: 16
==Constitution: 14
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 10
==Charisma: 14

-Human Fighter/Sorceror (2 Fighter, 1 Sorceror):
==Weapon: Katana x2
==Armor Type: Minimal
==Strength: 16
==Dexterity: 15
==Constitution: 12
==Intelligence: 10
==Wisdom: 9
==Charisma: 14

I ask for someone to take a look at those (these are the results at the end of the prelude) and give me some pointers based on that information.  I could especially use information for levelling during the first chapter - for a projection, I expect to gain 1, possibly 2, but definitely no more than 3 levels during Chapter 1.

I also would like to ask whether timing would start during character creation or just after it.

Some other things to note:
-For the most part, especially with combinations that included the Sorceror, I had to gain the first two levels with the same class.
-The first treasure chest in the area behind the double doors right after meeting Aribeth tends to contain a Ring of Fortitude +1, unless the character's playing as the Rogue, in which case it will be Boots of Reflexes +1.  The chest after that ALWAYS has 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds.
-The fights I got into were:
==The four mages that teleport in once you talk to Aribeth
==The Tough Goblin, 3-4 Weak Goblins, and 1-2 Skeletons right before the level-up dude
==The 4 Skeletons in the optional room at the end of the hall right after the level-up dude
==The 3 Weak Goblins further down that hall
==The big fight that includes the Mysterious Mage at the room right before the Stables
==The fight in the stables
-The reason I entered the side room and fought the 4 skeletons is because I needed to check what items were available in that room.  It depends on what class your level-up was, but I don't remember the exact specifics.  I'm considering skipping it unless I find I need the quick Gold.
-I believe it is actually faster to deal with the Arcane Magic training or Rogue training than the Combat training - and I'd say the Arcane Magic training is the most beneficial in terms of what you can get from it (one Magic Missile scroll, one Melf's Acid Arrow scroll - which I spend against the Mysterious Mage - and a Rod of Frost).
-What the Mysterious Mage drops upon his death also seems to be class-dependent.

So right now, judging from the prelude alone, the most promising choices are Monk/Fighter or Fighter/Sorceror.  Which means armor isn't such a necessity, leaving me more gold to spend towards potions, scrolls (in the case of the Sorceror combo), or possibly new weapons.  I also plan on getting Healer's Kits, and if I can get enough ranks in Open Lock I might get some Thieves' Tools.  (Yes, even Sorceror combos get this - I can't rely exclusively on Knock, at least not for a while.)

I shall look further into this.

Edit: As far as the first chapter, the only quests I recommend doing are the mandatory ones, the quest where you're rewarded for actually killing Meldanen, and possibly the quest for the Masterson amulet in the Docks.  The last two just require a little extra walking, that's it.

Also, I recommend doing the Peninsula first, then the Docks, then Beggar's Nest, and save the Blacklake district for last.

I can safely say the scythe is out of the question.  The two-handed weapon of choice will be the greatsword.  I had another idea, though - using two one-handed weapons instead.  I chose rapiers for this purpose because they have the highest critical rate, although I do take suggestions for other potential paired one-handed weapons in this situation.

Other notes:
-Invisibility (even if it's from potions) and some spell resistance are pretty much required for a speedy run of Blacklake - this is why that area is currently last.
-Persuade and Tumble are indeed vital to doing Chapter 1 fast at all.  Open Lock might be up for debate though, and adding Search to the list might reduce the sheer frustration of traps (this makes a bigger case for using an Elf).
-Expeditious Retreat is a 1st-level spell to consider.  For the more combat-oriented sorcerors, I think that will replace whatever damage spell I had there.

Pweisger

2006-04-05 04:29:19 am

PwNzRd!

Never thought about it until now, but a speedrun of this game would definitely be interesting. I'd watch it.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-05 06:24:31 pm

2006-04-05 12:07:03 pm

Never give up!

Considering the amount of planning required? Yes, the end result ought to be interesting. I figure it being 4-5 hours at least, considering there's no way to haste yourself from the get-go. Well, okay, movement speed CAN be increased with a 1st-level spell, but I still haven't established whether I NEED a specific class right off (to set things up later).

I'll do my best to run the first segment of the second half of the stress test later today, once I've nailed my route.

Edit: Okay, I've determined that trying to run through the first chapter without a henchman is just impossible. But I don't know what one to pick. My current choices are Daelan (half-orc barbarian) or Tomi (halfling rogue). Daelan takes a little more time to get, but he's a better fighter. Tomi, on the other hand, is right in the way, and can open locks (I don't care for trap disabling) and deal some nasty sneak attacks. Problem is, he's not a good straight-up fighter.

Also, I've discovered that luring off the enemy with a familiar (or a henchman) can work wonders if done correctly. See, when you leave a map, familiars and henchmen will follow you no matter how far away they are.

Edit 2: When doing the test for fun earlier today, I found that Daelan is incredibly devastating against large groups - and against spellcasters if he gets to attack first. Therefore, Daelan becomes a potential candidate, particularly for characters with low hit points. I didn't test Tomi yet, but if my guess is correct he'd be more effective for the character setups that have massive hit points.

Also, I discovered you can use Persuade to get rid of the extra guys in the Intellect Devourer's Lair more quickly. Not only do you get extra experience for that (about 250-300 total EXP last I checked), but it's an alignment-changing act - if I looked correctly, it shifts alignment towards good. This might be irrelevant since none of my choices uses a paladin, but the sheer speed of it makes the idea viable.

(By the way, some refresher notes down here for the people ultimately critiquing my setups, in case they're not intimately familiar with NWN. Stats can only start as low as 8 before racial modifiers, and if my Intelligence score is 8 or less then not all dialogue options are open to me. Also, stats get costlier when they get too high - you don't randomly roll stats in NWN, you point-distribute for them. All of this means that the kind of min/maxing that occured in the Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and Icewind Dale runs, while I understand it and accept it for those cases, is simply not possible in NWN, but I may still be able to use the KotOR runs as a reference point. I may not be able to, however, because of differing skill sets and classes.)

Considering the amount of planning required?  Yes, the end result ought to be interesting.  I figure it being 4-5 hours at least, considering there's no way to haste yourself from the get-go.  Well, okay, movement speed CAN be increased with a 1st-level spell, but I still haven't established whether I NEED a specific class right off (to set things up later).

I'll do my best to run the first segment of the second half of the stress test later today, once I've nailed my route.

Edit: Okay, I've determined that trying to run through the first chapter without a henchman is just impossible.  But I don't know what one to pick.  My current choices are Daelan (half-orc barbarian) or Tomi (halfling rogue).  Daelan takes a little more time to get, but he's a better fighter.  Tomi, on the other hand, is right in the way, and can open locks (I don't care for trap disabling) and deal some nasty sneak attacks.  Problem is, he's not a good straight-up fighter.

Also, I've discovered that luring off the enemy with a familiar (or a henchman) can work wonders if done correctly.  See, when you leave a map, familiars and henchmen will follow you no matter how far away they are.

Edit 2: When doing the test for fun earlier today, I found that Daelan is incredibly devastating against large groups - and against spellcasters if he gets to attack first.  Therefore, Daelan becomes a potential candidate, particularly for characters with low hit points.  I didn't test Tomi yet, but if my guess is correct he'd be more effective for the character setups that have massive hit points.

Also, I discovered you can use Persuade to get rid of the extra guys in the Intellect Devourer's Lair more quickly.  Not only do you get extra experience for that (about 250-300 total EXP last I checked), but it's an alignment-changing act - if I looked correctly, it shifts alignment towards good.  This might be irrelevant since none of my choices uses a paladin, but the sheer speed of it makes the idea viable.

(By the way, some refresher notes down here for the people ultimately critiquing my setups, in case they're not intimately familiar with NWN.  Stats can only start as low as 8 before racial modifiers, and if my Intelligence score is 8 or less then not all dialogue options are open to me.  Also, stats get costlier when they get too high - you don't randomly roll stats in NWN, you point-distribute for them.  All of this means that the kind of min/maxing that occured in the Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and Icewind Dale runs, while I understand it and accept it for those cases, is simply not possible in NWN, but I may still be able to use the KotOR runs as a reference point.  I may not be able to, however, because of differing skill sets and classes.)

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-06 08:31:30 pm

2006-04-05 09:09:52 pm

Never give up!

Okay, I've decided to put the results from the next part of the stress-test in a separate post for easier reading.

Here's what I've got so far:

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: 23:02.03 (3 deaths, from combat)
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 22:44.69 (5 deaths, all from combat)
-Elf Fighter/Rogue: 24:36.04 (3 deaths, all from combat) {SCRAPPED}
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 22:39.28 (5 deaths, all from combat)
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 25:02.07 (0 deaths) {liable to be scrapped}
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 24:08.50 (0 deaths)
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 22:29.97 (3 deaths, 2 from combat)

Notes:

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: Ran past just about everything until we got past the chessboard, stopping only to pick up a Dagger +1 and a Two-Bladed Sword +1 that were in the way (plan to pawn them off). After that we fought only what was in our way, but we made sure to fight most of it. The first death was when the first Gang Leader managed to get in a sneak attack. The other two deaths were from traps, as I said. Dialogue selection did cost me a few seconds overall, and also I managed to only persuade three of the four guards near the Gaoler to leave - Daelan killed the Gaoler before I could get the last one. I discovered a chest that had a Greatsword +1 during the battle with the Intellect Devourer, so I equipped the new sword. Battle with the Intellect Devourer was very rough - he kept blasting us with confusion attacks. However, things went pretty well once it got to the real fight, since both Daelan and I can do enough damage to beat his damage reduction. No level-up from this segment with this character.

-Human Sorceror/Monk: The first death came right in the Peninsula District area - I failed a few too many Tumble checks. I stop to pick up the Dagger +1 and the Two-Bladed Sword +1 (like before, I plan on selling them later). After clearing by the chessboard, I proceed to fight whatever happens to be in my direct path. I believe two deaths came at the Gang Leader, and I hit the Escaped Sorceror with a well-placed Stunning Fist to make that part easier. The last two deaths came at the fight with that guarding Half-Orc and during the battle with the Intellect Devourer, precisely. I picked up another Dagger +1 in that lair (where I found the Greatsword +1 before). Most battles were a little easier because I had picked a panther familiar - as long as the enemy went for Daelan, I was set. The Intellect Devourer, however, adamantly refused to cooperate, going for either the panther or me. I wound up gaining another level and putting it toward Sorceror.

-Elf Fighter/Rogue: I had two deaths at the first Gang Leader, one at the second, and a final death at the guarding Half-Orc. I've decided to scrap this character idea because there is almost no damage-dealing ability - I would have to be insanely lucky during a segment to get the number of critical hits I'd need, due to the fact that the two-rapier style I'd chosen lives and dies by the crit. Also, I am far too dependent on a henchman with this strategy. Overall, it's not going to work out.

-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: I had two deaths before I completely cleared the chessboard. One other death was because the game's AI prevented Daelan from drawing off the Gang Leader, one death was from the Escaped Sorceror, and the last death was from the guarding Half-Orc. I have to be VERY cautious with this character, or else abuse the deaths (which I want to avoid doing if possible). I accidentally discovered during this segment that killing the guarding Half-Orc, rather than letting him live, gives 400 more EXP, so I might do it from now on. Also, I managed to draw off only three of the four guards in the Intellect Devourer's Lair, and I managed to gain another level (put into Sorceror).

-Elf Monk/Rogue: This is the first time I suffered no deaths whatsoever. My dodging ability and the ability to use Daelan to draw all the enemy fire worked well. However, this setup simply does not deal the kind of damage I need, and thus I am considering scrapping it.

-Human Sorceror/Rogue: I had some difficulties at the start of this segment with rearranging the quickbar at the bottom of the screen, which I believe cost me a minute or so. I started the segment with a fairy dragon familiar, but I switched it over to a panther with a level-up right before facing the guarding Half-Orc. Hoo boy, that paid off. Once again, as long as they focus on Daelan, my familiar is set for damage - however, I too can join in the fun because I also have a sneak attack. Plus, instead of going unarmed like the sorceror/monk, I use a spear for better overall damage. The Intellect Devourer fight was a little rough, but the panther managed to stay alive until the creature had exhausted all its special attacks and gone to straight melee. At that time, I just kept forcing the thing to focus on Daelan while pummelling it with Ice Dagger spells (can we say 'brain freeze'?) and then getting sneak attacks. Of all the rogue-based options I tried, this is the one that gets the most credit.

-Human Fighter/Sorceror: This setup did pretty well. My first two deaths were from combat situations, both right before I could have healed, and the last was from springing the second-to-last trap before the Intellect Devourer. Speaking of which, a fairy dragon familiar and Daelan kept dealing massive damage during that fight, so I could only rescue two guards. I did get a Katana +1 during the attempt, so that's not too bad. As for things I regret, I regret not picking a panther familiar with this setup and I regret not getting the Ice Dagger spell.

I've decided the spell set should go like this:

0-level: Any, but make sure you get 'Ray of Frost'.
1st-level: 'Ice Dagger' and 'Mage Armor' should be the first pair. After that, 'Burning Hands' can fit the bill. 'Summon Creature I' and 'Expeditious Retreat' are other choices, the latter only for when you can get Haste.
2nd-level: 'Invisibility' and 'Knock' are pretty much givens. If you really need another, consider "Melf's Acid Arrow".
3rd-level: 'Haste' if you're not using a monk. If you ARE, I say get 'Lightning Bolt'. If a second spell is needed, get 'Fireball'.
4th-level: 'Improved Invisibility'. Seriously, any other spell at this level is a waste in a speedrun.

Things to investigate for the Docks:
-I recall seeing one of the Bloodsailors carrying a Potion of Invisibility during one test. Is that potion always in his grasp? If it is, it'll be quite important I snuff him out.
-I recall exiting the Bloodsailor's hideout and being outside a door to the side of the Seedy Tavern (or wherever that building holding the auction of that stupid Waterdhavian creature was). Could that door be broken down, particularly with Daelan as a henchman? If so, that's a pretty big shortcut.
-I recall bribing the chef with 200 gold and then breaking down the door. Could he be paid less (without resorting to Persuade, which I always do first), and how far away is the key to that door?
-Exiting the sewers area through Vengaul's end puts you at a sewer grate near the Seedy Tavern. I really doubt that grate could be entered ahead of time, but I ought to at least try.
-How and where the heck are you supposed to use the Instructions from Callik? I've always used Dara'nei's Locket to get to that part of the Aqueducts - pretty fast except for the dire spider.
-There's at least one trap that I believe I cannot entirely avoid, and it's lethal for most of the character setups I'm using. Any ideas for bypassing it? I'm thinking a summoned creature or a familiar could trigger it, but the Fighter/Monk will just have to plow over it and hope for the best (he has the best chance of surviving it).
-Where's the best place to stand waiting for Callik and Vengaul's exchange to end?
-Twenty in a Quiver sells +1 weapons and the scrolls of Flame Arrow, Haste, Invisibility, and Summon Creature IV. When's the best time to head there?

Beggar's Nest:
-Consider completing the Marcus quest for the money.
-My current plan is to use the Warehouse to enter the crypts - I know there's another way but I don't know how or whether it's faster.
-I currently plan on picking up the armor suit that summons a mummy - surely there's a way around that.
-For Gulnan, I need a tip as to how to avoid Flame Strike.

I would also like some indication this is being read - I feel too much like I'm talking to myself.

Okay, I've decided to put the results from the next part of the stress-test in a separate post for easier reading.

Here's what I've got so far:

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: 23:02.03 (3 deaths, from combat)
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 22:44.69 (5 deaths, all from combat)
-Elf Fighter/Rogue: 24:36.04 (3 deaths, all from combat) {SCRAPPED}
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 22:39.28 (5 deaths, all from combat)
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 25:02.07 (0 deaths) {liable to be scrapped}
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 24:08.50 (0 deaths)
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 22:29.97 (3 deaths, 2 from combat)

Notes:

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: Ran past just about everything until we got past the chessboard, stopping only to pick up a Dagger +1 and a Two-Bladed Sword +1 that were in the way (plan to pawn them off).  After that we fought only what was in our way, but we made sure to fight most of it.  The first death was when the first Gang Leader managed to get in a sneak attack.  The other two deaths were from traps, as I said.  Dialogue selection did cost me a few seconds overall, and also I managed to only persuade three of the four guards near the Gaoler to leave - Daelan killed the Gaoler before I could get the last one.  I discovered a chest that had a Greatsword +1 during the battle with the Intellect Devourer, so I equipped the new sword.  Battle with the Intellect Devourer was very rough - he kept blasting us with confusion attacks.  However, things went pretty well once it got to the real fight, since both Daelan and I can do enough damage to beat his damage reduction.  No level-up from this segment with this character.

-Human Sorceror/Monk: The first death came right in the Peninsula District area - I failed a few too many Tumble checks.  I stop to pick up the Dagger +1 and the Two-Bladed Sword +1 (like before, I plan on selling them later).  After clearing by the chessboard, I proceed to fight whatever happens to be in my direct path.  I believe two deaths came at the Gang Leader, and I hit the Escaped Sorceror with a well-placed Stunning Fist to make that part easier.  The last two deaths came at the fight with that guarding Half-Orc and during the battle with the Intellect Devourer, precisely.  I picked up another Dagger +1 in that lair (where I found the Greatsword +1 before).  Most battles were a little easier because I had picked a panther familiar - as long as the enemy went for Daelan, I was set.  The Intellect Devourer, however, adamantly refused to cooperate, going for either the panther or me.  I wound up gaining another level and putting it toward Sorceror.

-Elf Fighter/Rogue: I had two deaths at the first Gang Leader, one at the second, and a final death at the guarding Half-Orc.  I've decided to scrap this character idea because there is almost no damage-dealing ability - I would have to be insanely lucky during a segment to get the number of critical hits I'd need, due to the fact that the two-rapier style I'd chosen lives and dies by the crit.  Also, I am far too dependent on a henchman with this strategy.  Overall, it's not going to work out.

-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: I had two deaths before I completely cleared the chessboard.  One other death was because the game's AI prevented Daelan from drawing off the Gang Leader, one death was from the Escaped Sorceror, and the last death was from the guarding Half-Orc.  I have to be VERY cautious with this character, or else abuse the deaths (which I want to avoid doing if possible).  I accidentally discovered during this segment that killing the guarding Half-Orc, rather than letting him live, gives 400 more EXP, so I might do it from now on.  Also, I managed to draw off only three of the four guards in the Intellect Devourer's Lair, and I managed to gain another level (put into Sorceror).

-Elf Monk/Rogue: This is the first time I suffered no deaths whatsoever.  My dodging ability and the ability to use Daelan to draw all the enemy fire worked well.  However, this setup simply does not deal the kind of damage I need, and thus I am considering scrapping it.

-Human Sorceror/Rogue: I had some difficulties at the start of this segment with rearranging the quickbar at the bottom of the screen, which I believe cost me a minute or so.  I started the segment with a fairy dragon familiar, but I switched it over to a panther with a level-up right before facing the guarding Half-Orc.  Hoo boy, that paid off.  Once again, as long as they focus on Daelan, my familiar is set for damage - however, I too can join in the fun because I also have a sneak attack.  Plus, instead of going unarmed like the sorceror/monk, I use a spear for better overall damage.  The Intellect Devourer fight was a little rough, but the panther managed to stay alive until the creature had exhausted all its special attacks and gone to straight melee.  At that time, I just kept forcing the thing to focus on Daelan while pummelling it with Ice Dagger spells (can we say 'brain freeze'?) and then getting sneak attacks.  Of all the rogue-based options I tried, this is the one that gets the most credit.

-Human Fighter/Sorceror: This setup did pretty well.  My first two deaths were from combat situations, both right before I could have healed, and the last was from springing the second-to-last trap before the Intellect Devourer.  Speaking of which, a fairy dragon familiar and Daelan kept dealing massive damage during that fight, so I could only rescue two guards.  I did get a Katana +1 during the attempt, so that's not too bad.  As for things I regret, I regret not picking a panther familiar with this setup and I regret not getting the Ice Dagger spell.

I've decided the spell set should go like this:

0-level: Any, but make sure you get 'Ray of Frost'.
1st-level: 'Ice Dagger' and 'Mage Armor' should be the first pair.  After that, 'Burning Hands' can fit the bill.  'Summon Creature I' and 'Expeditious Retreat' are other choices, the latter only for when you can get Haste.
2nd-level: 'Invisibility' and 'Knock' are pretty much givens.  If you really need another, consider "Melf's Acid Arrow".
3rd-level: 'Haste' if you're not using a monk.  If you ARE, I say get 'Lightning Bolt'.  If a second spell is needed, get 'Fireball'.
4th-level: 'Improved Invisibility'.  Seriously, any other spell at this level is a waste in a speedrun.

Things to investigate for the Docks:
-I recall seeing one of the Bloodsailors carrying a Potion of Invisibility during one test.  Is that potion always in his grasp?  If it is, it'll be quite important I snuff him out.
-I recall exiting the Bloodsailor's hideout and being outside a door to the side of the Seedy Tavern (or wherever that building holding the auction of that stupid Waterdhavian creature was).  Could that door be broken down, particularly with Daelan as a henchman?  If so, that's a pretty big shortcut.
-I recall bribing the chef with 200 gold and then breaking down the door.  Could he be paid less (without resorting to Persuade, which I always do first), and how far away is the key to that door?
-Exiting the sewers area through Vengaul's end puts you at a sewer grate near the Seedy Tavern.  I really doubt that grate could be entered ahead of time, but I ought to at least try.
-How and where the heck are you supposed to use the Instructions from Callik?  I've always used Dara'nei's Locket to get to that part of the Aqueducts - pretty fast except for the dire spider.
-There's at least one trap that I believe I cannot entirely avoid, and it's lethal for most of the character setups I'm using.  Any ideas for bypassing it?  I'm thinking a summoned creature or a familiar could trigger it, but the Fighter/Monk will just have to plow over it and hope for the best (he has the best chance of surviving it).
-Where's the best place to stand waiting for Callik and Vengaul's exchange to end?
-Twenty in a Quiver sells +1 weapons and the scrolls of Flame Arrow, Haste, Invisibility, and Summon Creature IV.  When's the best time to head there?

Beggar's Nest:
-Consider completing the Marcus quest for the money.
-My current plan is to use the Warehouse to enter the crypts - I know there's another way but I don't know how or whether it's faster.
-I currently plan on picking up the armor suit that summons a mummy - surely there's a way around that.
-For Gulnan, I need a tip as to how to avoid Flame Strike.

I would also like some indication this is being read - I feel too much like I'm talking to myself.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-08 02:13:11 am

2006-04-07 03:29:21 am

Never give up!

Okay, I'm still attempting to get this working, but I consider this part of my run queue now.

I've taken an eighth character - an almost truly min/maxed Human Sorceror/Fighter (18 STR, 13 DEX, 10 CON, 9 INT, 8 WIS, 14 CHA) - and started doing some recordings. There's three problems occurring here.

One, I'm trying to do this without deaths. It's insanely difficult early on, because there are enemies that NEED to die, and I have no guarantee for what treasures I'm going to get or even the prices merchants will charge. Two, I'm also still scouting the game out with other characters trying to get a good feel for my route. Three, my current recording method is a VCR, which as everyone knows simply does not have perfect video or audio quality. I can't convince my parents to get me a DVD recorder yet, since the VCR was my last birthday present, so any recordings now are going to be subpar.

With that said, there are some important things to note with my route (mostly sorceror-based notes):
-I've changed the route to make the Docks first. This will not apply for the seven stress-test characters, but it WILL apply for any other characters I try henceforth. Why? I can get Potions of Invisibility, which will make other areas of the chapter easier and more likely than not faster until I can get the Invisibility spell (I hope to get that by Blacklake, which is still last).
-My new route for the docks involves killing the Bloodsailors on the boat first, getting a uniform and the brooch Daelan will need later. The possibility of breaking open both chests exists if I have my maximum number of 1st-level spells.
-Next, I need to enter the Seedy Tavern (putting on the uniform to pass by), and persuade the chef into letting me pass. You can retry the check by exiting out of conversation after the failed check, which I plan to do. Then bash open the door and go in on the LEFT side (trap on the right).
-I only kill the Bloodsailors that are in my way here, and the first one on the lowest level drops a Potion of Invisibility. I save Dara'nei, get her locket, and bash open the nearby metal door and raid the weapon rack for a Dire Mace +1, then leave to the main Docks area. If I don't have a Wand of Lesser Summoning by now, the segment must be restarted.
-Next, I visit Twenty in a Quiver. I sell off the Dire Mace +1 and get as many Potions of Invisibility as I can buy (no more than 10, and if I have other +1 items I'll sell them too). I must save 100 gold, however, for emergencies.
-Now I go to Silver Sails and get to the metal door. I must tell Daelan to wait, use a Potion of Invisibility, and get by the spider. This is tricky - failing the Reflex save more than once may result in having to restart the segment.
-Down in the Aqueducts, I possess the familiar and make him walk over the last bridge. If he survives, I then de-possess him and take the boat over to the sewers.
-In the sewers, I use the Wand of Lesser Summoning to summon a boar, trigger Callik's speech, and then stand in the close corner near the gate/fence. Once he starts moving toward me, I start moving in a square pattern around the arena until the enemy is drawn off, then immediately use the Wand of Fire I got a while ago to plop down a fireball. Usually it's expended with that (I used one of its two uses earlier), so I then continually cast Ray of Frost (they have a tendency to completely evade Ice Dagger) until it's expended. Then I wait until there's just one ally drawing off Callik, cast Mage Armor, then alternate drinking a Potion of Invisibility and attacking. Hopefully Callik dies within a few hits. I pick up the amulet and anything else I can pawn off in the immediate vicinity, then speak with Vengaul, get the feather, and drop off the amulet with Masterson.

Edit: Okay, here's the first part recorded with that eighth character.

http://files.filefront.com/nwspeed_p1avi/;4963046;;/fileinfo.html

Feel free to leave any comments on that video in this thread.

Edit 2: Docks stress test in progress. Here's the scoop (if no death count is listed, the note there shows what part I stopped at, and the time is when I stopped):

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: 18:57.49 (0 deaths)
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 20:34.06 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 19:44.06 (0 deaths)
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 19:49.65 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 19:54.07 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 21:47.16 (0 deaths)

Notes:

Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: I had no real problems with this segment with this character. I did learn, however, that buying the Scroll of Invisibility is not worth the cost in the context of a speedrun. This is because the Twenty in a Quiver dude has infinite Potions of Invisibility, and at cheaper cost. I believe I DID buy a Potion of Speed, but I used it to attack faster against Callik.

Human Sorceror/Monk: I had a flash of inspiration trying to figure out how to fight Callik with this guy. I decided chugging Potions of Invisibility after each attack allowed you to get another strike in. Problem is, this character cannot deal enough damage in the early game to take advantage of that fact. When he died three times on Callik in the SAME FIGHT, I decided this one was not worth the trouble.

Elf Sorceror/Fighter: This one went a little slower than expected, because I was too timid to approach Callik and also there was minor issues throughout the area. Plus, this combo has the most problems with the spider's web. Take those out and this could very well have wound up faster than Fighter/Monk.

Elf Monk/Rogue: I determined from the fight with Callik that this setup is too dependent on getting the upper hand. Callik tries to refocus on you at all times, and my hitting ability is insufficient to guarantee a knockout blow, so I've decided to ditch this character.

Human Sorceror/Rogue: As with the others, this combo has too much dependence on getting the upper hand. And I NEVER got it against Callik with this pair. This combo isn't worth it in a speedrun despite the wide skill set available (which might make a FEW things easier, but not many).

Human Fighter/Sorceror: I had money problems while attempting this setup, and a few attack problems. Nevertheless, this setup is doable to this point in the context of a speedrun, because of the faster attack speed of two weapons compared to one. However, I think this setup will ultimately fall too far behind to work.

Okay, I'm still attempting to get this working, but I consider this part of my run queue now.

I've taken an eighth character - an almost truly min/maxed Human Sorceror/Fighter (18 STR, 13 DEX, 10 CON, 9 INT, 8 WIS, 14 CHA) - and started doing some recordings.  There's three problems occurring here.

[b]One[/b], I'm trying to do this without deaths.  It's insanely difficult early on, because there are enemies that NEED to die, and I have no guarantee for what treasures I'm going to get or even the prices merchants will charge. [b]Two[/b], I'm also still scouting the game out with other characters trying to get a good feel for my route.  [b]Three[/b], my current recording method is a VCR, which as everyone knows simply does not have perfect video or audio quality.  I can't convince my parents to get me a DVD recorder yet, since the VCR was my last birthday present, so any recordings now are going to be subpar.

With that said, there are some important things to note with my route (mostly sorceror-based notes):
-I've changed the route to make the Docks first.  This will not apply for the seven stress-test characters, but it WILL apply for any other characters I try henceforth.  Why?  I can get Potions of Invisibility, which will make other areas of the chapter easier and more likely than not faster until I can get the Invisibility spell (I hope to get that by Blacklake, which is still last).
-My new route for the docks involves killing the Bloodsailors on the boat first, getting a uniform and the brooch Daelan will need later.  The possibility of breaking open both chests exists if I have my maximum number of 1st-level spells.
-Next, I need to enter the Seedy Tavern (putting on the uniform to pass by), and persuade the chef into letting me pass.  You can retry the check by exiting out of conversation after the failed check, which I plan to do.  Then bash open the door and go in on the LEFT side (trap on the right).
-I only kill the Bloodsailors that are in my way here, and the first one on the lowest level drops a Potion of Invisibility.  I save Dara'nei, get her locket, and bash open the nearby metal door and raid the weapon rack for a Dire Mace +1, then leave to the main Docks area.  If I don't have a Wand of Lesser Summoning by now, the segment must be restarted.
-Next, I visit Twenty in a Quiver.  I sell off the Dire Mace +1 and get as many Potions of Invisibility as I can buy (no more than 10, and if I have other +1 items I'll sell them too).  I must save 100 gold, however, for emergencies.
-Now I go to Silver Sails and get to the metal door.  I must tell Daelan to wait, use a Potion of Invisibility, and get by the spider.  This is tricky - failing the Reflex save more than once may result in having to restart the segment.
-Down in the Aqueducts, I possess the familiar and make him walk over the last bridge.  If he survives, I then de-possess him and take the boat over to the sewers.
-In the sewers, I use the Wand of Lesser Summoning to summon a boar, trigger Callik's speech, and then stand in the close corner near the gate/fence.  Once he starts moving toward me, I start moving in a square pattern around the arena until the enemy is drawn off, then immediately use the Wand of Fire I got a while ago to plop down a fireball.  Usually it's expended with that (I used one of its two uses earlier), so I then continually cast Ray of Frost (they have a tendency to completely evade Ice Dagger) until it's expended.  Then I wait until there's just one ally drawing off Callik, cast Mage Armor, then alternate drinking a Potion of Invisibility and attacking.  Hopefully Callik dies within a few hits.  I pick up the amulet and anything else I can pawn off in the immediate vicinity, then speak with Vengaul, get the feather, and drop off the amulet with Masterson.

Edit: Okay, here's the first part recorded with that eighth character.

[url]http://files.filefront.com/nwspeed_p1avi/;4963046;;/fileinfo.html[/url]

Feel free to leave any comments on that video in this thread.

Edit 2: Docks stress test in progress.  Here's the scoop (if no death count is listed, the note there shows what part I stopped at, and the time is when I stopped):

-Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: 18:57.49 (0 deaths)
-Human Sorceror/Monk: 20:34.06 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Elf Sorceror/Fighter: 19:44.06 (0 deaths)
-Elf Monk/Rogue: 19:49.65 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Human Sorceror/Rogue: 19:54.07 (failed test at Callik) {SCRAPPED}
-Human Fighter/Sorceror: 21:47.16 (0 deaths)

Notes:

Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: I had no real problems with this segment with this character.  I did learn, however, that buying the Scroll of Invisibility is not worth the cost in the context of a speedrun.  This is because the Twenty in a Quiver dude has infinite Potions of Invisibility, and at cheaper cost.  I believe I DID buy a Potion of Speed, but I used it to attack faster against Callik.

Human Sorceror/Monk: I had a flash of inspiration trying to figure out how to fight Callik with this guy.  I decided chugging Potions of Invisibility after each attack allowed you to get another strike in.  Problem is, this character cannot deal enough damage in the early game to take advantage of that fact.  When he died three times on Callik in the SAME FIGHT, I decided this one was not worth the trouble.

Elf Sorceror/Fighter: This one went a little slower than expected, because I was too timid to approach Callik and also there was minor issues throughout the area.  Plus, this combo has the most problems with the spider's web.  Take those out and this could very well have wound up faster than Fighter/Monk.

Elf Monk/Rogue: I determined from the fight with Callik that this setup is too dependent on getting the upper hand.  Callik tries to refocus on you at all times, and my hitting ability is insufficient to guarantee a knockout blow, so I've decided to ditch this character.

Human Sorceror/Rogue: As with the others, this combo has too much dependence on getting the upper hand.  And I NEVER got it against Callik with this pair.  This combo isn't worth it in a speedrun despite the wide skill set available (which might make a FEW things easier, but not many).

Human Fighter/Sorceror: I had money problems while attempting this setup, and a few attack problems.  Nevertheless, this setup is doable to this point in the context of a speedrun, because of the faster attack speed of two weapons compared to one.  However, I think this setup will ultimately fall too far behind to work.

The_Pianoman

2006-04-07 11:30:14 pm

I have just downloaded your video and it looks promising, performance-wise. It was astonishing how easy you got through the intro/first chapter. I remember, being a elf/sorcerer, having big problems at the very start, it was almost frustrating.

Just a couple of days ago I finished NWN (70+ hours), so I really looked forward to your speedrun, but: the quality of the video is very poor. Unfortunately NWN has these tiny fonts, so everything is simply unreadable when watching your run. Likewise with the symbols and scrolls. Can you use FRAPS or another software tool instead of your VCR? It's impossible to see what you're actually doing.

Apart from that: Go for it!

The Pianoman

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-08 12:42:36 am

2006-04-08 12:42:11 am

Never give up!

Well, FRAPS is a software package I'm not exactly willing to get. The main reason's not the cost, despite the fact I'm a college student with limited money. The REAL reason I avoid the concept of using FRAPS is that when capturing, there's a lot more strain on the system. I want to avoid the slowdowns (and crashes, too) that have been known to plague FRAPS users on more than one occasion.

This is why I brought up the DVD recorder earlier, and even if I'm ready with route and skill by then, the final run will probably wait for the DVD recorder (which will allow at least the amount of clarity I seek, hopefully more). In the meantime, I'll see what I can do, although I don't know how much I can do to fix the problem. One possibility I do know for sure is processing the capture at 640 x 480 at this time rather than shrinking it down to 320 x 240 (the size of that prelude video).... I realize it might not completely work, but I think it's better than nothing. Another might be seeing if multiple passes could do the trick (I know about multipass, and have gotten it to work before, but I have a habit of using 1-pass). I also might want to look into another codec besides DivX (which I use because it's the norm for the site's encodings).

I also notice the sound seems to slightly lag in a place or two, although that could be just my ears.

It is amazing, though, just how easy it seems to me to narrow down the character choices to just a few. I thought I would have to take forever to do it, but it's becoming very clear from hunting the Waterdhavian creatures what classes aren't suitable for the big time. I admit, the route might still need tweaking, but I'll get to that once I know who's ultimately in.

Anyway, to clear up that video:
-During character selection, I chose the gender to be male (although that's unimportant), the race to be human (this gets me another feat and some more skill points), and the class to be sorceror (this is crucial; I chose this FIRST for starting items and for one item that seems to consistently spawn later on in the prelude).
-My alignment doesn't seem to be crucial, since the plan for that one was Sorceror/Fighter, and neither class is restricted.
-I make Charisma be 14 because I don't foresee casting any spells higher than 4th-level. Intelligence is set to 9 so my character speaks properly (whether this is important I've yet to check). Wisdom is left at 8 because I don't really foresee needing it. Strength is maxed out for the extra attack power (both the attack bonus AND attack damage) and for carrying capacity, which may not be much now but I definitely foresee needing it later. Dexterity is initially set to 12 for the AC boost, but I decided to set it to 13 so I could get access to the Dexterity-based feats. Constitution is set to 10 because I don't want too few hit points, but I already am down a few because I spent most of my points on Strength (which I might consider lowering by 2 to increase other stats a little better).
-I use my skill points to buy 2 ranks in the cross-class skill Tumble and 2 points in the cross-class skill Persuade. If I had more points, Heal and Open Lock are the skills I'd look at in order to fill the gap.
-After debating my feats for a bit, I chose Power Attack, and used the human bonus feat to take Cleave (the former can help with locked stuff later, but the latter is more important now).
-Now, my spells. 0-level spells other than Light and Ray of Frost are absolutely useless to me, so I just pick whatever looks nice. For 1st-level spells, Ice Dagger is a bit better than Burning Hands here because a few monsters (including the Intellect Devourer I'll need to fight in the Peninsula) this early have fire resistance, and I don't plan on much AoE yet. If people can make a case for any damage spells other than Ice Dagger at that level, I may reconsider. Mage Armor is my other spell, simply because I don't plan on wearing armor often if at all. I take a panther familiar because it's the most combat-worthy. The rest of character creation means little.

-In Neverwinter Academy, the first important thing occurs at Olgerd. I sell two of the four scrolls I get at the start - Protection from Alignment and Sleep - as well as the Dagger, Torch, Woodsman Outfit (I put on the Robe of Fire Resistance first), Light Crossbow, and Bolts. (Note that I keep the Magic Missile and Summon Creature I scrolls.) I then rearrange my quickbar (I won't detail that yet), consolidate my Potions of Cure Light Wounds, and buy a Spear and a Greatsword. Since I can't use the latter yet, I equip the former first - it's the best simple weapon I know of in terms of damage.
-I take the Arcane Magic training, using Ray of Frost on the statue, then going to the chest and picking up another Magic Missile scroll and a Melf's Acid Arrow scroll. I then talk to the teacher and get a Rod of Frost before heading to the graduation chamber.
-I talk to Aribeth and then things go from jolly to vile. I assist as much as I can, agree to Aribeth's demand and then enter the next area (ignoring the mage that shows up).
-In the new area, I get a Ring of Fortitude +1 (again ignoring a mage) from the first chest and 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds from the second one. I then head to the circular hallway (ignoring Pavel), use the Summon Creature scroll (summoning a badger), and then use a Magic Missile scroll against the Tough Goblin. I then let the badger distract him, kill the goblin, and claim a Wand of Fire (important later, say.... next chapter. Oh, and a different item spawns if I use a different class at the start). I cast Mage Armor on the way to the next goblins, lure them to the badger and assist it in killing them (during which I got a crit that I believe was for 40 damage).
-I talk to the old guy to get a level up, and take up the Fighter class. I spend 2 points in Heal (I can't buy Tumble or Persuade here, due to them being cross-class, and NWN doesn't allow half-ranks the way pure D&D does), and since I can now use a greatsword, I get Weapon Focus for it (accuracy reasons). I then equip the greatsword I bought earlier (even giving it a quickbar slot) and proceed.
-I take a diversion to the room with 4 skeletons, and after 3 are dead (I take care of 2 thanks to Cleave), I start raiding the room. Now that I think of it, I can't tell how many gold pieces I picked up, but I believe both pickups total to less than 10 GP. I also pick up a Healer's Kit (+1, I think) and a Copper Necklace, as well as a suit of Splint Mail.
-I then head to the mysterious mage, killing a few goblins and summoning my familiar along the way. As soon as the mage is in sight, I go right for him, ignoring all else. He casts Ray of Frost on me before I can get to him, but I take him down in one blow, then cleave one of his minions. I then finish off the rest (with the badger and familiar helping), pick up a Wand of Sleep, and proceed to the stables, where I finish off the remaining enemies and talk with Desther and Fenthick to gain a level. This level goes into Sorceror, where I buy a cross-class rank of Tumble, deliberate for a while before choosing the feat Spell Penetration (important for Meldanen in Blacklake), and pick up the spell Acid Splash (which has no value to me).

That's all the video tells me.

Well, FRAPS is a software package I'm not exactly willing to get.  The main reason's not the cost, despite the fact I'm a college student with limited money.  The REAL reason I avoid the concept of using FRAPS is that when capturing, there's a lot more strain on the system.  I want to avoid the slowdowns (and crashes, too) that have been known to plague FRAPS users on more than one occasion.

This is why I brought up the DVD recorder earlier, and even if I'm ready with route and skill by then, the final run will probably wait for the DVD recorder (which will allow at least the amount of clarity I seek, hopefully more).  In the meantime, I'll see what I can do, although I don't know how much I can do to fix the problem.  One possibility I do know for sure is processing the capture at 640 x 480 at this time rather than shrinking it down to 320 x 240 (the size of that prelude video).... I realize it might not completely work, but I think it's better than nothing.  Another might be seeing if multiple passes could do the trick (I know about multipass, and have gotten it to work before, but I have a habit of using 1-pass).  I also might want to look into another codec besides DivX (which I use because it's the norm for the site's encodings).

I also notice the sound seems to slightly lag in a place or two, although that could be just my ears.

It is amazing, though, just how easy it seems to me to narrow down the character choices to just a few.  I thought I would have to take forever to do it, but it's becoming very clear from hunting the Waterdhavian creatures what classes aren't suitable for the big time.  I admit, the route might still need tweaking, but I'll get to that once I know who's ultimately in.

Anyway, to clear up that video:
-During character selection, I chose the gender to be male (although that's unimportant), the race to be human (this gets me another feat and some more skill points), and the class to be sorceror (this is crucial; I chose this FIRST for starting items and for one item that seems to consistently spawn later on in the prelude).
-My alignment doesn't seem to be crucial, since the plan for that one was Sorceror/Fighter, and neither class is restricted.
-I make Charisma be 14 because I don't foresee casting any spells higher than 4th-level.  Intelligence is set to 9 so my character speaks properly (whether this is important I've yet to check).  Wisdom is left at 8 because I don't really foresee needing it.  Strength is maxed out for the extra attack power (both the attack bonus AND attack damage) and for carrying capacity, which may not be much now but I definitely foresee needing it later.  Dexterity is initially set to 12 for the AC boost, but I decided to set it to 13 so I could get access to the Dexterity-based feats.  Constitution is set to 10 because I don't want too few hit points, but I already am down a few because I spent most of my points on Strength (which I might consider lowering by 2 to increase other stats a little better).
-I use my skill points to buy 2 ranks in the cross-class skill Tumble and 2 points in the cross-class skill Persuade.  If I had more points, Heal and Open Lock are the skills I'd look at in order to fill the gap.
-After debating my feats for a bit, I chose Power Attack, and used the human bonus feat to take Cleave (the former can help with locked stuff later, but the latter is more important now).
-Now, my spells.  0-level spells other than Light and Ray of Frost are absolutely useless to me, so I just pick whatever looks nice.  For 1st-level spells, Ice Dagger is a bit better than Burning Hands here because a few monsters (including the Intellect Devourer I'll need to fight in the Peninsula) this early have fire resistance, and I don't plan on much AoE yet.  If people can make a case for any damage spells other than Ice Dagger at that level, I may reconsider.  Mage Armor is my other spell, simply because I don't plan on wearing armor often if at all.  I take a panther familiar because it's the most combat-worthy.  The rest of character creation means little.

-In Neverwinter Academy, the first important thing occurs at Olgerd.  I sell two of the four scrolls I get at the start - Protection from Alignment and Sleep - as well as the Dagger, Torch, Woodsman Outfit (I put on the Robe of Fire Resistance first), Light Crossbow, and Bolts.  (Note that I keep the Magic Missile and Summon Creature I scrolls.)  I then rearrange my quickbar (I won't detail that yet), consolidate my Potions of Cure Light Wounds, and buy a Spear and a Greatsword.  Since I can't use the latter yet, I equip the former first - it's the best simple weapon I know of in terms of damage.
-I take the Arcane Magic training, using Ray of Frost on the statue, then going to the chest and picking up another Magic Missile scroll and a Melf's Acid Arrow scroll.  I then talk to the teacher and get a Rod of Frost before heading to the graduation chamber.
-I talk to Aribeth and then things go from jolly to vile.  I assist as much as I can, agree to Aribeth's demand and then enter the next area (ignoring the mage that shows up).
-In the new area, I get a Ring of Fortitude +1 (again ignoring a mage) from the first chest and 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds from the second one.  I then head to the circular hallway (ignoring Pavel), use the Summon Creature scroll (summoning a badger), and then use a Magic Missile scroll against the Tough Goblin.  I then let the badger distract him, kill the goblin, and claim a Wand of Fire (important later, say.... next chapter.  Oh, and a different item spawns if I use a different class at the start).  I cast Mage Armor on the way to the next goblins, lure them to the badger and assist it in killing them (during which I got a crit that I believe was for 40 damage).
-I talk to the old guy to get a level up, and take up the Fighter class.  I spend 2 points in Heal (I can't buy Tumble or Persuade here, due to them being cross-class, and NWN doesn't allow half-ranks the way pure D&D does), and since I can now use a greatsword, I get Weapon Focus for it (accuracy reasons).  I then equip the greatsword I bought earlier (even giving it a quickbar slot) and proceed.
-I take a diversion to the room with 4 skeletons, and after 3 are dead (I take care of 2 thanks to Cleave), I start raiding the room.  Now that I think of it, I can't tell how many gold pieces I picked up, but I believe both pickups total to less than 10 GP.  I also pick up a Healer's Kit (+1, I think) and a Copper Necklace, as well as a suit of Splint Mail.
-I then head to the mysterious mage, killing a few goblins and summoning my familiar along the way.  As soon as the mage is in sight, I go right for him, ignoring all else.  He casts Ray of Frost on me before I can get to him, but I take him down in one blow, then cleave one of his minions.  I then finish off the rest (with the badger and familiar helping), pick up a Wand of Sleep, and proceed to the stables, where I finish off the remaining enemies and talk with Desther and Fenthick to gain a level.  This level goes into Sorceror, where I buy a cross-class rank of Tumble, deliberate for a while before choosing the feat Spell Penetration (important for Meldanen in Blacklake), and pick up the spell Acid Splash (which has no value to me).

That's all the video tells me.

CannibalBob

2006-04-08 01:21:45 am

FRAPS is a nice program, you might want to consider trying the demo a little, it's not expensive even if you're a college student. Now, if you lower some settings in it, ie. recording res. and such, it runs very well. Unless your computer is very old, you should be great. My computer is not top-of-the-line and depending on the game, sometimes I forget I even had recording on while playing and did not notice!

Another problem with fraps is the raw video files get huge since they are recorded uncompressed, so having a large hard drive (or at least a lot of space) really helps.

But, you can use what you want. I'm just saying it might be easier in the long run to use FRAPS than ancient pieces of magnetic tape Cheesy

I just watched it, it's hard to make out any sort of numbers/text (when levelling or making your char).

I watched your video, very promising! The sorcerer/fighter looks like it will work great, especially when you can get invisibility and run past everything and haste as well. I'm assuming you'll use Find Traps and Knock for those 'important' chests and traps.

Don't you wish looting happened faster?

FRAPS is a nice program, you might want to consider trying the demo a little, it's not expensive even if you're a college student.  Now, if you lower some settings in it, ie. recording res. and such, it runs very well.  Unless your computer is very old, you should be great.  My computer is not top-of-the-line and depending on the game, sometimes I forget I even had recording on while playing and did not notice!

Another problem with fraps is the raw video files get huge since they are recorded uncompressed, so having a large hard drive (or at least a lot of space) really helps.

But, you can use what you want.  I'm just saying it might be easier in the long run to use FRAPS than ancient pieces of magnetic tape :D  I just watched it, it's hard to make out any sort of numbers/text (when levelling or making your char).

I watched your video, very promising!  The sorcerer/fighter looks like it will work great, especially when you can get invisibility and run past everything and haste as well.  I'm assuming you'll use Find Traps and Knock for those 'important' chests and traps.

Don't you wish looting happened faster?

AquaTiger

2006-04-08 02:38:55 am

Never give up!

Quote:

FRAPS is a nice program, you might want to consider trying the demo a little, it's not expensive even if you're a college student. Now, if you lower some settings in it, ie. recording res. and such, it runs very well. Unless your computer is very old, you should be great. My computer is not top-of-the-line and depending on the game, sometimes I forget I even had recording on while playing and did not notice!

Another problem with fraps is the raw video files get huge since they are recorded uncompressed, so having a large hard drive (or at least a lot of space) really helps.

But, you can use what you want. I'm just saying it might be easier in the long run to use FRAPS than ancient pieces of magnetic tape Cheesy

I just watched it, it's hard to make out any sort of numbers/text (when levelling or making your char).

We'll see. If I can get a summer internship that pays (it may not) or an honest summer job, I may get the DVD recorder (ideally one that can read some format of DVD-RWs, so I can reuse the DVDs) myself, and then only use it for serious speedrun recording. If it's to show me my route and review it, to get some run where insane detail isn't necessary required (practice runs of MOST games - obviously not this one), or some other thing not speedrun-related, I'll still use the VCR.

Quote:

I watched your video, very promising! The sorcerer/fighter looks like it will work great, especially when you can get invisibility and run past everything and haste as well. I'm assuming you'll use Find Traps and Knock for those 'important' chests and traps.

Don't you wish looting happened faster?

Yes, I do wish looting happened faster.

For finding traps, since this is a segmented run and the maps themselves (and traps) are fairly static, I'll just map out what traps are where. (I need to map out the best treasure anyway, so why not?) As for chests, yes, my second 2nd-level spell will be Knock exclusively for that purpose, although I don't expect to have that spell in Chapter 1.

As far as Haste goes.... unfortunately, it does not last nearly as long as it did in any of the games based on AD&D (both Baldur's Gate games, and also Icewind Dale if I'm not mistaken). This is because NWN uses 3rd edition D&D (with a few tweaks to accomodate the system the game uses for combat - for instance, the skills Taunt, Discipline, and Parry do not exist in D&D 3e normally, although Taunt is part of Bluff outside of NWN), and Haste only lasts maybe 6 seconds per caster level per use (1 round = 6 seconds or so). Same with Expeditious Retreat. Potions of Speed cost over 400 GP, so I can't really afford to stock up on those. This means my movement speed won't be optimal for a long while, if ever.

Invisibility, on the other hand, is definitely invaluable as long as any henchmen or summons (including the familiar) are told to stay still. If I exit the map, they will follow no matter what, which ultimately saves me time in the majority of areas. The problem comes when areas have the major enemy at the end of that map rather than as their own map - then you HAVE to either trudge through it or waste money using the Stone of Recall (the latter of which will probably be the preferred solution).

Anyway, my character stress-test is down to 3, and here's how they shape up:

Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: Timewise, he's in the best situation right now. The only problem I think he suffers is that he has no way of breaking open the more difficult treasure chests - it's going to be a pain later.

Elf Sorceror/Fighter (the one with the greatsword): With a little tweaking, this guy could have been the fastest right now. He's still feasible, though, especially since he's very close to learning Invisibility, which will save me time and money since I don't HAVE to get potions for it. Besides, he's very close in terms of time.

Human Fighter/Sorceror (the one with two katanas): This idea stemmed out of a worry that when I suggested a character having two weapons, someone would suggest paired katanas as a joke. I'm completely serious about that. While he does perform better than any combination that does not include Fighter levels (and one that does), I'm afraid this class will suffer from money problems very easily, due to needing to buy two weapons rather than one. If he has another bad segment, I'm dropping him from the race.

[quote]FRAPS is a nice program, you might want to consider trying the demo a little, it's not expensive even if you're a college student.  Now, if you lower some settings in it, ie. recording res. and such, it runs very well.  Unless your computer is very old, you should be great.  My computer is not top-of-the-line and depending on the game, sometimes I forget I even had recording on while playing and did not notice!

Another problem with fraps is the raw video files get huge since they are recorded uncompressed, so having a large hard drive (or at least a lot of space) really helps.

But, you can use what you want.  I'm just saying it might be easier in the long run to use FRAPS than ancient pieces of magnetic tape :D  I just watched it, it's hard to make out any sort of numbers/text (when levelling or making your char).[/quote]

We'll see.  If I can get a summer internship that pays (it may not) or an honest summer job, I may get the DVD recorder (ideally one that can read some format of DVD-RWs, so I can reuse the DVDs) myself, and then only use it for serious speedrun recording.  If it's to show me my route and review it, to get some run where insane detail isn't necessary required (practice runs of MOST games - obviously not this one), or some other thing not speedrun-related, I'll still use the VCR.

[quote]I watched your video, very promising!  The sorcerer/fighter looks like it will work great, especially when you can get invisibility and run past everything and haste as well.  I'm assuming you'll use Find Traps and Knock for those 'important' chests and traps.

Don't you wish looting happened faster?[/quote]

Yes, I do wish looting happened faster.

For finding traps, since this is a segmented run and the maps themselves (and traps) are fairly static, I'll just map out what traps are where.  (I need to map out the best treasure anyway, so why not?)  As for chests, yes, my second 2nd-level spell will be Knock exclusively for that purpose, although I don't expect to have that spell in Chapter 1.

As far as Haste goes.... unfortunately, it does not last nearly as long as it did in any of the games based on AD&D (both Baldur's Gate games, and also Icewind Dale if I'm not mistaken).  This is because NWN uses 3rd edition D&D (with a few tweaks to accomodate the system the game uses for combat - for instance, the skills Taunt, Discipline, and Parry do not exist in D&D 3e normally, although Taunt is part of Bluff outside of NWN), and Haste only lasts maybe 6 seconds per caster level per use (1 round = 6 seconds or so).  Same with Expeditious Retreat.  Potions of Speed cost over 400 GP, so I can't really afford to stock up on those.  This means my movement speed won't be optimal for a long while, if ever.

Invisibility, on the other hand, is definitely invaluable as long as any henchmen or summons (including the familiar) are told to stay still.  If I exit the map, they will follow no matter what, which ultimately saves me time in the majority of areas.  The problem comes when areas have the major enemy at the end of that map rather than as their own map - then you HAVE to either trudge through it or waste money using the Stone of Recall (the latter of which will probably be the preferred solution).

Anyway, my character stress-test is down to 3, and here's how they shape up:

Half-Orc Fighter/Monk: Timewise, he's in the best situation right now.  The only problem I think he suffers is that he has no way of breaking open the more difficult treasure chests - it's going to be a pain later.

Elf Sorceror/Fighter (the one with the greatsword): With a little tweaking, this guy could have been the fastest right now.  He's still feasible, though, especially since he's very close to learning Invisibility, which will save me time and money since I don't HAVE to get potions for it.  Besides, he's very close in terms of time.

Human Fighter/Sorceror (the one with two katanas): This idea stemmed out of a worry that when I suggested a character having two weapons, someone would suggest paired katanas as a joke.  I'm completely serious about that.  While he does perform better than any combination that does not include Fighter levels (and one that does), I'm afraid this class will suffer from money problems very easily, due to needing to buy two weapons rather than one.  If he has another bad segment, I'm dropping him from the race.

Pweisger

2006-04-08 07:51:07 am

PwNzRd!

I have to record using half size, because full size eats up 1GB a minute, whereas half size is about 1GB every 4 to 5 minutes. Significant. It is a worthy investment, nevertheless.

Lag.Com

2006-04-08 07:59:49 am

sda loyalist

Alright, the run seems pretty runny so far. Of course, in a game like this the character is only tested later on in the game. Looking forward to it.

Raven75

2006-04-08 10:47:08 am

It's-a me, Raven!

Forget wielding two weapons, please. Yes, you get in more attacks - but they're all with extra penalties. I've seen countless discussions on two-weapon-fighting versus two-handed-weapon-fighting, and ye ol' greatsworde always came out on top.
The fighter/Sorcerer looks promising. But did you ever consider throwing Barbarian into the mix? Let's say you start with Sorc, then a level of Ftr, then keep going Sorc until you hit level 9 (F/S 1/8) for those ever-important 4th-level spells. Then boost Ftr to 4 (Go-Go Gadget Weapon Specialization Feat!), and switch to Barb from there - more HP, equal attack, RAGE! and maybe some DR in the end, plus uncanny dodge and such... Just an idea, though.

AquaTiger

2006-04-08 03:30:09 pm

Never give up!

Yes, I should have more carefully concerned the costs before suggesting the idea of dual-wielding. Here's the costs I know of:

1) It takes more money to keep a character viable, since two weapons or a very expensive dual weapon must be bought, instead of just one weapon.
2) To make dual-wielding most effective, you must sacrifice a few feats (at least 2) that could have gone to more useful stuff - say, Spell Penetration, Mobility, Spring Attack, or Great Cleave.
3) Despite getting more chances to hit in a round, you often deal less damage and thus have more trouble with enemies that have damage reduction.

Is there any more that I missed?

Anyway, my current levelling PLAN goes something more like this:

1 level of Sorceror
1 level of Fighter
3 levels of Sorceror (to get Invisibility)
3 levels of Fighter (for Weapon Specialization, feats, the attack bonus, and the extra hit points. The hit points are the most crucial reason)
4 levels of Sorceror (for Improved Invisibility - and even if I don't get this far, which I may not, I still get good spells)

If I gain levels after THAT, I plan on looking between Fighter (for more bonus feats), Barbarian (for hit points and Rage), and possibly Rogue (for the sneak attack - hey, I have Invisibility, so why not improve its usefulness this way? - and to fill out any skills that need it).

I also need to play around with starting ability scores a little. Charisma's currently locked at 14, and Wisdom's currently locked at 8, but I could consider tweaking Intelligence (I might not NEED the one point I spend in Intelligence to go through the game), Strength (it's going to be either 16 or 18 for sure, but I haven't decided whether the extra bonuses from 18 Strength are worth losing out on 6 points I could distribute elsewhere), Dexterity (might be a good idea to raise it a bit for the AC and for Reflex saves - said saves seem to be necessary in the first chapter, what with Meldanen, Gulnan, and the spider in the Docks), or Constitution (the extra hit points might help).

The last thing I need to nail down is my feat selection. More on this later.

Yes, I should have more carefully concerned the costs before suggesting the idea of dual-wielding.  Here's the costs I know of:

1) It takes more money to keep a character viable, since two weapons or a very expensive dual weapon must be bought, instead of just one weapon.
2) To make dual-wielding most effective, you must sacrifice a few feats (at least 2) that could have gone to more useful stuff - say, Spell Penetration, Mobility, Spring Attack, or Great Cleave.
3) Despite getting more chances to hit in a round, you often deal less damage and thus have more trouble with enemies that have damage reduction.

Is there any more that I missed?

Anyway, my current levelling PLAN goes something more like this:

1 level of Sorceror
1 level of Fighter
3 levels of Sorceror (to get Invisibility)
3 levels of Fighter (for Weapon Specialization, feats, the attack bonus, and the extra hit points.  The hit points are the most crucial reason)
4 levels of Sorceror (for Improved Invisibility - and even if I don't get this far, which I may not, I still get good spells)

If I gain levels after THAT, I plan on looking between Fighter (for more bonus feats), Barbarian (for hit points and Rage), and possibly Rogue (for the sneak attack - hey, I have Invisibility, so why not improve its usefulness this way? - and to fill out any skills that need it).

I also need to play around with starting ability scores a little.  Charisma's currently locked at 14, and Wisdom's currently locked at 8, but I could consider tweaking Intelligence (I might not NEED the one point I spend in Intelligence to go through the game), Strength (it's going to be either 16 or 18 for sure, but I haven't decided whether the extra bonuses from 18 Strength are worth losing out on 6 points I could distribute elsewhere), Dexterity (might be a good idea to raise it a bit for the AC and for Reflex saves - said saves seem to be necessary in the first chapter, what with Meldanen, Gulnan, and the spider in the Docks), or Constitution (the extra hit points might help).

The last thing I need to nail down is my feat selection.  More on this later.

CannibalBob

2006-04-08 06:53:18 pm

If you're interested in dual wielding, you would want to be at least level 1 ranger because they automatically get Dual Wield, which simulates ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting, thus saving you 2 'wasted' feats. But it might be favourable to be a ranger as opposed to a fighter because not only do you get 2 more skill points (4x int mod as opposed to fighter's 2x int mod). Problem is, you don't have heavy armor feat, unless you intend to use it.

Rangers can cast spells but you can ignore that because you get your first spell at level 6 or something Cheesy

BTW: it's "Sorcerer", without the 'O' at the end 8)

Raven75

2006-04-08 07:06:34 pm

It's-a me, Raven!

He's not going to use armour; being a Sorc, he can't afford the arcane spell failure.
Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer 1/1/4+/8 - mwoohargh Smiley

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-04-08 08:26:46 pm

2006-04-08 07:43:41 pm

Never give up!

First, on the spelling thing.... well, I'll be damned. I've seen it spelled both ways, but Dictionary.com sides with your spelling on this one.

As for the ranger.... Hmmm.... there's an interesting idea.

One other thing I've thought of is swapping Sorcerer for Wizard.

Pros:
-Can learn spells a level sooner than Sorcerer, thus letting me get levels for other classes sooner
-Can get a little more benefit from scrolls (I can keep the spell for later if I like it enough)
-Because of one of the cons listed, I can gain more skill points (probably put them in Concentration and Heal... perhaps Open Lock if the character's a human)
-I can possibly specialize in the spell school that has Invisibility, and ditch spells from schools for which I have no need whatsoever.

Cons:
-Requires me to raise Intelligence. I will inevitably have to lower Charisma
-Persuade isn't as effective early as with the Sorcerer
-Fewer spells per day - I'd have to rest more often
-Even less combat ability than the Sorcerer has
-I HAVE to pick and choose my daily spells - I can't just snooze and then have them. Of course, if the current Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale runs are any indication, this ought to be somewhat easy

Do the pros outweigh the cons? I don't know.

Anyway, after the next round of the test (to determine whether I need to drop that Human Fighter/Sorcerer), I'm thinking of starting another test between:

Fighter/Monk
Sorcerer/Fighter
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Ranger
Wizard/Ranger
Wizard/Monk (trust me on this)
Wizard/Cleric (again, trust me here)
Fighter/Cleric (another weird one)
Ranger/Cleric (yet again, trust me)
Sorcerer/Cleric (last odd one, I swear)

I'll probably keep the old policy of using the prelude and first chapter as the stress-test grounds. Although the route definitely gets some tweaks from the last test, the rest remains the same. And I'll make sure to bring it down to one combo to use for the run via that test.

I believe this will be the last stress-test I do before planning the route through the remaining three chapters.

Edit: You might also notice from the list that I added the Cleric as a potential secondary class. Why? He can heal himself for free (saving to a degree the money I'd spend on potions), deal effectively with undead (this will be important in Beggar's Nest), and still get decent hit points. Granted, that means I have to spend a feat getting a good weapon, and have real screwy ability scores, but I think I can get it to work.

With the Cleric ideas, I'm stumped as to what domains would work best. I'm thinking that Healing (boosts the power of healing spells quite a bit), Trickery (it has several Invisibility spells), Knowledge (it has Knock among a few other things), and War (lets me fight better on occasion) are the only realistic options in a speedrun context. But which two fit the best?

First, on the spelling thing.... well, I'll be damned.  I've seen it spelled both ways, but Dictionary.com sides with your spelling on this one.

As for the ranger.... Hmmm.... there's an interesting idea.

One other thing I've thought of is swapping Sorcerer for Wizard.

Pros:
-Can learn spells a level sooner than Sorcerer, thus letting me get levels for other classes sooner
-Can get a little more benefit from scrolls (I can keep the spell for later if I like it enough)
-Because of one of the cons listed, I can gain more skill points (probably put them in Concentration and Heal... perhaps Open Lock if the character's a human)
-I can possibly specialize in the spell school that has Invisibility, and ditch spells from schools for which I have no need whatsoever.

Cons:
-Requires me to raise Intelligence.  I will inevitably have to lower Charisma
-Persuade isn't as effective early as with the Sorcerer
-Fewer spells per day - I'd have to rest more often
-Even less combat ability than the Sorcerer has
-I HAVE to pick and choose my daily spells - I can't just snooze and then have them.  Of course, if the current Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale runs are any indication, this ought to be somewhat easy

Do the pros outweigh the cons?  I don't know.

Anyway, after the next round of the test (to determine whether I need to drop that Human Fighter/Sorcerer), I'm thinking of starting another test between:

Fighter/Monk
Sorcerer/Fighter
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Ranger
Wizard/Ranger
Wizard/Monk (trust me on this)
Wizard/Cleric (again, trust me here)
Fighter/Cleric (another weird one)
Ranger/Cleric (yet again, trust me)
Sorcerer/Cleric (last odd one, I swear)

I'll probably keep the old policy of using the prelude and first chapter as the stress-test grounds.  Although the route definitely gets some tweaks from the last test, the rest remains the same.  And I'll make sure to bring it down to one combo to use for the run via that test.

I believe this will be the last stress-test I do before planning the route through the remaining three chapters.

Edit: You might also notice from the list that I added the Cleric as a potential secondary class.  Why?  He can heal himself for free (saving to a degree the money I'd spend on potions), deal effectively with undead (this will be important in Beggar's Nest), and still get decent hit points.  Granted, that means I have to spend a feat getting a good weapon, and have real screwy ability scores, but I think I can get it to work.

With the Cleric ideas, I'm stumped as to what domains would work best.  I'm thinking that Healing (boosts the power of healing spells quite a bit), Trickery (it has several Invisibility spells), Knowledge (it has Knock among a few other things), and War (lets me fight better on occasion) are the only realistic options in a speedrun context.  But which two fit the best?