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ING-X: 2014-01-20 09:26:45 am
ING-X: 2014-01-20 09:24:47 am
This has been brought up before privately with a couple of the admins here, but now that I've gotten some serious interest in running this game again I feel like I should be more direct and clear about what's really at stake here.

For those not in the know, the Wii Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask has quite a few advantages over the original Nintendo 64 version. These advantages include, but are not limited to:

-Faster loading times between areas
-Overall less slowdown (or "lag")
-Faster unpauses (makes pause buffering MUCH easier and faster)

However, the one huge drawback (and this is why I used the N64 version for my SDA run back in 2011) is that the VC version, which uses the Gamecube controller, has the control stick mapped in such a way that the deadzone is larger and the sensitivity outside the deadzone is considerably greater. The result is that, at least for someone used to the N64 version's controls, aiming in first-person mode is much more difficult, and one trick (the Hyper Extended SuperSlide, or HESS, which requires the control stick be held tilted very slightly), is considerably harder on VC. This is not to say that the VC version's controls are entirely inferior; the N64 version has considerable problems holding the control stick straight up, down, left, or right due to the control stick being mapped very precisely, which can be a massive nuissance for those who aren't used to the N64 version (especially with a worn-down, wobbly joystick).

Around the time I started working on my first MM run, I bought a N64 controller adapter from RaphNet for use on the VC version to try to make it so that I could HESS and aim easily on the VC version. However, since (unbeknownst to me at the time) the VC controls are actually mapped by the emulator (as opposed to simply being the way the Gamecube controller works), the N64 adapter did not make playing the VC version much easier; in fact, it was almost worse than a GC controller because it felt so clunky. Because of this, I stuck with the N64 version for my first MM run, which at the time wasn't that big of a deal since I was the only one running the game.

However, a few months ago, a ZSR forumgoer named "whyieyesya" offered to build a modification to the RaphNet adapter for VC that would map the control stick to be just like the N64 version's, since the precise way the VC control stick was mapped had been discovered by that time. The adapter was finished, and a few runners of both OoT and MM use the new adapter now (as they have testified, the control stick on the new adapter is indeed exactly like the N64 version). If I could use this new N64 controller adapter, I could finally play VC MM without any control differences from the N64 version, making it so that I could aim and HESS without any problems.

However, this brings me to the point of this post, which is this: Since this adapter does make aiming and HESS easier, it could be argued that it gives an unfair advantage against those who play the VC version with a GC controller. As far as I can tell, aiming and HESS can be done easily on a GC controller on VC if you're accustomed enough to the altered controls; there are quite a few people who can HESS and aim on VC with a GC controller without any serious problems, so the new adapter doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do without it. But for someone like me, who is so used to the N64 controls, adjusting to the VC controls would be a long, painful process (trust me, I've tried *many* times already).

My question for the admins here is this: Based on the description I have given, would this new N64 controller adapter for VC, which re-maps the control stick to be like the N64 version, be acceptable for a run on SDA? I know that ZSR accepts it for its leaderboards, but since my main goal for any serious speedrun is to get a run on SDA, ZSR's acceptance of the adapter isn't much consolation for me. Again, the adapter doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do without it - it just makes some things easier for someone who's more accustomed to the N64 controls.

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I'm not an admin, but this seems like a very gray area to me. The rules do say third party controllers are allowed, but not for turbo or inputs that aren't possible on console:

Input Modification: Console players may use third-party controllers, but may not use features not present on controllers bundled with the system. For example, auto- or turbo-fire controllers are banned, except for the TurboGrafix-16 where stock controllers have it. Pressing up and down or left and right simultaneously on a dpad is not allowed as it requires hardware modification in order to do so. PC gamers may use any reasonable input device and remap keys, but may not use macros, scripts or programmable keyboards to automate button-presses.
Yeah, there's no turbo or anything like that on this adapter, nor does it let you do stuff that's not normally possible. All it does is adjust the control stick to remove a deadzone and decrease sensitivity, so that the VC version controls like the N64 version. The adapter does make one trick (HESS) a bit easier, but as I said, there are people who can HESS on VC with a GC controller without any real problems, so it's not like the adapter lets you easily do a trick thats otherwise incredibly hard.
I don't know anything about how SDA deals with this, but it makes me want to ask something. Would it make any difference whether the adapter is widely available or something that others cannot easily acquire/make?
Well, the adapter was made by someone on the ZSR forums (it was a modification to an adapter that was already widely available), so I don't know how that might factor into it. The original version of the adapter is almost exactly the same, except it still has the weird deadzone and sensitivity of the VC version's control stick (which arguably feels worse with an N64 stick than with a GC one). The new adapter is custom-built for the N64 zeldas; it has a mapping for OoT and one for MM, each of which adjusts the stick to make it feel like the N64 version for that game. I don't think the adapter is hard to get - if it'd make it easier, I could contact whyieyesya and Raph (the guy who made the original adapter) about having the new mappings added to the original adapter as an update.
Update: It sees like whyieyesya is planning on making the adapter more widely available via a webpage, so I don't think availability should be an issue.
i also want to question this ruling cause i want to use cause i play with an arcade stick and nes advantage and super advantage are pretty trash (didnt want to hijack the thread just questioning the same ruling). the ruling reads so wierd
Not a walrus
As long as it doesn't let you do anything that wouldn't be possible with a stock controller then I don't think it's an issue.
Edit history:
ING-X: 2014-01-23 10:42:19 am
ING-X: 2014-01-23 10:41:18 am
Yeah, that seemed to be the consensus last time I asked, too. I mainly brought it up again because I was afraid I hadn't been clear enough about HESS being easier with the adapter than without, which is a pretty significant detail. I should re-emphasize that the Zelda community is fine with the adapter, for pretty much the same reason as what UraniumAnchor said.

I can speak from experience when I say that the difference between the original adapter (which doesn't alter anything) and the new adapter (which alters the control stick mapping) is primarily comfort of control; the main problem with the original adapter was that the GC mapping on an N64 stick feels really clunky and awkward, so the new adapter was made to fix the control stick and map it properly for the N64 control stick. The re-map does make HESS easier, but not by all that much. I can HESS fairly well on the old adapter (can't say the same for GC controller, although I know others can); my main beef with it is just that it feels too clunky for my tastes.
I want off the ride....
I think the point of controllers should be that it shouldn't add some function that wasn't intended in the original.

So TURBO is banned on any controller but the TG-16 and such cause it is built in.
I don't see this adding any functionality that wasn't already inherent in a controller but rather further refining how one should work. I don't see this as anything different than say buying a Hori Pad and using that to run stuff because its more comfortable. If the nori added turbo that would cross the line, but as I see most Hori's just refine the initial design or improve on it in some way. Could be the same on if someone found some knock off they prefer over an original controller.

Added functions = NONO!
making functions easier but still require your input = OKOK!

at least thats how i think of it.
Edit history:
ING-X: 2014-01-23 05:30:49 pm
ING-X: 2014-01-23 05:29:28 pm
ING-X: 2014-01-23 05:27:19 pm
I talked to LLCoolDave in the IRC about this today, and he seemed to be okay with it as long as it's reasonably available to other players (which it is) and matches the abilities of a stock controller (which it does). I'm not sure if there's such thing as an "official" ruling for this kind of thing, but if there is then I hope I get one soon so I can stop worrying about this Tongue