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Edit history:
digama: 2011-12-19 10:33:32 pm
digama: 2011-12-05 07:04:53 am
digama: 2011-11-27 09:39:12 pm
digama: 2011-11-27 02:40:42 am
digama: 2011-11-20 02:41:28 pm
It looks like Myst I has been speedrun to death, but I would like to gauge the interest in speedrunning the other games (Riven, Exile, Revelation, End of Ages, Uru (Ages beyond Myst, To D'ni, Path of the Shell)). I already have a run of Riven (not submitted yet) unofficially clocked at 14:14, and am considering running the rest.

Concerning ending conditions:

Myst any%: get Atrus's page; end when handing it to him (covered extensively)
Myst 100%: get 4 pages for each son, plus Atrus's page; end when handing it to him
realMyst 100%: get Atrus's page, view Riven in viewer on Rime
Riven any%: capture Gehn, save Catherine, end on breaking telescope glass
Myst III: Exile 100%: retrieve Releeshahn book, save Saavedro, end on return to Tomahna (any% don't save Saavedro?)
Myst IV: Revelation any%: end on finishing the dream puzzle (IIRC)
Myst V: EoA any%: end on link to Releeshahn
Uru ABM any%: end on rainy cleft bahro cinematic
Uru To D'ni any%: end on jump into great shaft (IIRC)
Uru POTS any%: end on link to K'veer

I would like to do these runs, but some of them have dubious tactics. In particular, Uru POTS requires that you stand on a pressure plate for ~15 minutes. Would it be possible to skip this in the website version? (Not the verifier version, of course, but it's awfully boring to watch.) I don't think any of the others have problems like this, but I won't know until I do the runs. Should I go ahead?

I'll keep an updated run list here. Once they are all decent, I'll submit them to SDA all at once and you verifiers can take a crack at it.

Riven single segment: 12:20
Riven 2-segment: 10:38 (un-uploaded 3-segment 9:59)
Exile single segment: 22:25 (un-uploaded 22:09)
Revelation single segment: 1:12:40 (un-uploaded 48:01)
End of Ages single segment: 25:07
Thread title:  
Arrested for felony abuse of emotes
I don't remember the pressure plate from POTS, but it's been a while since I played them. >>

Concerning the % and conditions, they all sound pretty correct to me.  Technically, you can not save Catherine in Riven, which I guess would make that really the any%, and the conditions you have would be 100%.

I would totally help verify these, so you would definitely have one viewer. :3
I'd be interested in and could probably verify Riven and Myst 3. I haven't played the later ones yet and I might not want to spoil them.

Not all games necessarily have completion percentages. Especially if there are endings that are different qualitatively rather than quantitatively, there may be categories like best ending or ending A/ending B. Riven I would say has a good ending (save Catherine) and bad ending (very short 2 segment run). I don't think it makes sense to have separate categories for something like Exile, where the only difference is something that takes a few seconds to do at the end.
#Casual
I uploaded a "fun run" of Myst 5 a couple of years ago (my tjp7154 youtube page) and it illustrates a concern with a run of that game:  the horribly long and UNSKIPABLE cutscenes.
Quote from Itsu de Mo:
I don't remember the pressure plate from POTS, but it's been a while since I played them. >>

Concerning the % and conditions, they all sound pretty correct to me.  Technically, you can not save Catherine in Riven, which I guess would make that really the any%, and the conditions you have would be 100%.

I would totally help verify these, so you would definitely have one viewer. :3


The room with the giant ball which you can push has a light off to the side; if you stand under it for 15 minutes, some rungs come out of the wall and you can continue (in Uru POTS).

I've always considered not saving Catherine to be a "bad" ending, same as not capturing Gehn, but I suppose it could count as an any%, like with Exile.

It's true that these endings are not really any% or 100% in the strict sense, but it seems to be the lexicon here, and it's close enough for me. It's not like Myst games have "points" or something anyway. I imagine the most appropriate thing in this genre is to just do a run with the best possible ending, and maybe another one if you skipped most of the gameplay in the first one somehow. This comment is mostly directed at Myst, and collecting the red and blue pages is close enough to collecting goodies in other games that any% / 100% makes sense here, but you can also skip most gameplay in Myst V by just drawing the Keep symbols as soon as you arrive. Unfortunately, that seems too much like a knowledge-based skip to justify not using it (as I do those all the time in Riven). I don't think this is a problem in any of the other games.
Exoray
There's also good ending or bad ending categories which seem to describe the scenario closer for these games. If the difference between the two are too small we probably won't accept a bad ending run as a separate category.
Edit history:
Fragmaster01: 2011-11-21 12:55:12 pm
Wiggle wiggle
In Riven, the Bad Endings are a significant(as best as can be described in a run that short) difference in route, given that you can kill yourself off quickly with the Prison Book. Exile, it's just a difference in how you handle the last age, so there's only a few seconds off of each in a 20-30 minute run. Never played Revelation, so someone else can offer there.
Arrested for felony abuse of emotes
In Revelation, you skip the dream world puzzle at the end for the bad endings. ^^;

As for the bad endings in EoA, it might be a little longer than the good ending, since you have to go to Myst to finish it.
Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!
Would definitely verify an Exile run, game is great <3 As for Riven, sure I'd watch it, maybe I could work out what random bunch of shit you need to do to actually win that game (Riven is too cryptic for cryptic)
Edit history:
Fragmaster01: 2011-11-21 07:47:26 pm
Fragmaster01: 2011-11-21 07:45:40 pm
Fragmaster01: 2011-11-21 07:44:41 pm
Wiggle wiggle
My thoughts on that, Cryptic:

Riven 100%: Trap Gehn, free Catherine, break open Fissure.
Riven any%: Trap Gehn, break open Fissure.
Riven bad ending: Get trapped in prison book(fastest normally); OR just break open Fissure(luck manipulate guessing the right code).

100% obviously requires doing everything. Any% is the same, but skips Prison Island. The first bad ending involves recovering the Prison Book, then using it immediately. The second bad ending involves turning on the Discovery Island power, then guessing the right code on the telescope to use it early(perhaps do it in 2 segments, one to get to the telescope, then go look up what the code actually is by playing through the game, then load that save and use the code). That's a half second penalty for saving, but it cuts out the frustration of trying to guess the correct code by yourself.
Edit history:
digama: 2011-11-22 09:11:24 pm
digama: 2011-11-21 09:14:16 pm
There's a category for bad endings? I guess I assumed that there was no point, since in most games, you can throw yourself off a cliff or something to die right off the bat if you wanted to. Granted, it's a bit more of a production in Myst games, but dying doesn't really sound speedrun-worthy. I can understand doing the less-than-perfect endings where you're still alive (and not imprisoned) when the credits roll, but if you die, to my mind that means you failed.

From the run, it looks like cutting out Prison island would save about 1:30 off the time, which is significant for a 15 minute run. Riven speedrun in 14:14

Quote from Fragmaster01:
The second bad ending involves turning on the Discovery Island power, then guessing the right code on the telescope to use it early(perhaps do it in 2 segments, one to get to the telescope, then go look up what the code actually is by playing through the game, then load that save and use the code). That's a half second penalty for saving, but it cuts out the frustration of trying to guess the correct code by yourself.


Is this legal in SDA runs? I need to leaf through Gehn's lab journal and Catherine's journal in order to get the codes I need to open the domes and the telescope, and particularly with Catherine's journal, since the pages turn very slowly, it takes me a full 30 seconds just to get to the page, when all I need is the code. If I save, read the books, and load again without ever opening them in the run, is that legal? I could trim off almost a minute total if I didn't have to read the books, making the half second penalty more than worth it.
Quote from digama:
There's a category for bad endings? I guess I assumed that there was no point, since in most games, you can throw yourself off a cliff or something to die right off the bat if you wanted to. Granted, it's a bit more of a production in Myst games, but dying doesn't really sound speedrun-worthy. I can understand doing the less-than-perfect endings where you're still alive (and not imprisoned) when the credits roll, but if you die, to my mind that means you failed.


in certain games where it's difficult to die and dying in a particular way brings up an end credits "bad end" screen, it's generally acceptable.  take a look at the heavy rain runs (which actually strategically completes certain tasks to fail quicker later (of particular note is when ethan gets captured)).  though i do generally feel 100% or at least "good end" runs of these type of games are more interesting to watch as a viewer.
Quote from digama:
There's a category for bad endings? I guess I assumed that there was no point, since in most games, you can throw yourself off a cliff or something to die right off the bat if you wanted to. Granted, it's a bit more of a production in Myst games, but dying doesn't really sound speedrun-worthy. I can understand doing the less-than-perfect endings where you're still alive (and not imprisoned) when the credits roll, but if you die, to my mind that means you failed.

From the run, it looks like cutting out Prison island would save about 1:30 off the time, which is significant for a 15 minute run. Riven speedrun in 14:14

Quote from Fragmaster01:
The second bad ending involves turning on the Discovery Island power, then guessing the right code on the telescope to use it early(perhaps do it in 2 segments, one to get to the telescope, then go look up what the code actually is by playing through the game, then load that save and use the code). That's a half second penalty for saving, but it cuts out the frustration of trying to guess the correct code by yourself.


Is this legal in SDA runs? I need to leaf through Gehn's lab journal and Catherine's journal in order to get the codes I need to open the domes and the telescope, and particularly with Catherine's journal, since the pages turn very slowly, it takes me a full 30 seconds just to get to the page, when all I need is the code. If I save, read the books, and load again without ever opening them in the run, is that legal? I could trim off almost a minute total if I didn't have to read the books, making the half second penalty more than worth it.


Yes, breaking the fissure without doing anything else was what I was suggesting for bad ending. Dying or getting trapped is not a bad ending, it's losing. And segmenting runs to figure out random things ahead of time or manipulate luck is certainly legal and common here. However, it does make it a separate category from single-segment runs and we have higher standards for segmented runs (they should not have much in the way of mistakes).
Edit history:
digama: 2011-11-23 05:20:49 pm
digama: 2011-11-23 05:10:58 pm
Quote from NMS:
Yes, breaking the fissure without doing anything else was what I was suggesting for bad ending. Dying or getting trapped is not a bad ending, it's losing. And segmenting runs to figure out random things ahead of time or manipulate luck is certainly legal and common here. However, it does make it a separate category from single-segment runs and we have higher standards for segmented runs (they should not have much in the way of mistakes).


If you break the Fissure without capturing Gehn, he will come out and shoot you with his dart gun. The credits roll regardless of how you die. It is definitely working for me to segment my run, as I am down to 12:02 10:44 for total run length with 2 segments, since I can clean up my mistakes, but as you say, the single-segment run will stand on its own in its own category (since the segmenting tricks I am implementing can never be beaten in an SS run).

As a side note, is it legal to record an SS run, quicksave in the middle, and use the same footage for segment 1 of my 2-segment run? (Obviously it means less recording for me, but I don't want to be accused of plagiarizing myself or something like that.)

Also, what is SDA policy regarding recording the end credits? In one sense, it's an "unskippable cutscene", but it is also after player control is relinquished, so should it be recorded? It takes up more than a third of the recorded time.
Quote from digama:
If you break the Fissure without capturing Gehn, he will come out and shoot you with his dart gun. The credits roll regardless of how you die. It is definitely working for me to segment my run, as I am down to 12:02 10:44 for total run length with 2 segments, since I can clean up my mistakes, but as you say, the single-segment run will stand on its own in its own category (since the segmenting tricks I am implementing can never be beaten in an SS run).


Oh, I forgot about that. Still, if the credits roll, I guess it can be considered an ending. That's basically the justification for the Heavy Rain DLC run where you die.


Quote from digama:
As a side note, is it legal to record an SS run, quicksave in the middle, and use the same footage for segment 1 of my 2-segment run? (Obviously it means less recording for me, but I don't want to be accused of plagiarizing myself or something like that.)


That should be fine as long as saving doesn't slow down the SS run and you don't lose much time to mistakes. If you could save more time by spitting it into more segments, that would be preferred for the segmented run.


Quote from digama:
Also, what is SDA policy regarding recording the end credits? In one sense, it's an "unskippable cutscene", but it is also after player control is relinquished, so should it be recorded? It takes up more than a third of the recorded time.


That's up to the runner. Some like to include it, but it's not required.
Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!
I think we all know the greatest part of any run would be that god damn monorail/rollercoaster area in Myst 3, so much fun <3 As for support, YES! If anyone nominates themselves to do Exile, I will be more than willing to help them out if they need it, just let me know Wink
Edit history:
digama: 2011-11-24 08:41:32 pm
digama: 2011-11-24 04:19:14 pm
digama: 2011-11-24 05:46:23 am
digama: 2011-11-24 04:17:17 am
digama: 2011-11-24 04:17:03 am
For those interested in my progress:

Riven single segment: 12:20
Riven 2-segment: 10:38
(new) Exile single segment: 22:25

I was surprised at how quick the Exile run turned out to be, since there are small unskippable animations all over the place. Sorry, cryptic, but the airship ride in Voltaic and the ice ball rollercoaster from Amateria are both skippable, so I am honor-bound as an SDA member to skip them. Sad If anyone wants to critique my route, feel free. Particularly in the large-scale arrangement of which ages to do first, it's a toss-up, so if you see a way to cut down on all the running around, feel free to mention it. (I know I'm not using zip mode effectively. I will need to go over my route in order to painstakingly find all the zip mode spots.)
First of all, I thought the Exile run was very good. The bio world seemed a little weaker than the others, but overall very nice. I haven't studied the level layouts recently, but the route seemed efficient. More zipping couldn't hurt though.

The Riven SS run was good, but did have a few obvious mistakes. I know the slider codes and marble grid are pretty finicky, but you also seemed to have some trouble going down ladders. It's not bad for an SS run, but if you can eliminate some of those errors it would be nice.

When it comes to segmented runs though, we'd prefer not to see those kinds of mistakes, even if it requires increasing the number of segments. Also, couldn't you play ahead and memorize the sound code to avoid having to go down the ladder and use the sphere?
Edit history:
digama: 2011-11-25 02:40:14 am
digama: 2011-11-25 02:31:34 am
digama: 2011-11-24 11:38:45 pm
Quote from NMS:
First of all, I thought the Exile run was very good. The bio world seemed a little weaker than the others, but overall very nice. I haven't studied the level layouts recently, but the route seemed efficient. More zipping couldn't hurt though.

The Riven SS run was good, but did have a few obvious mistakes. I know the slider codes and marble grid are pretty finicky, but you also seemed to have some trouble going down ladders. It's not bad for an SS run, but if you can eliminate some of those errors it would be nice.

When it comes to segmented runs though, we'd prefer not to see those kinds of mistakes, even if it requires increasing the number of segments. Also, couldn't you play ahead and memorize the sound code to avoid having to go down the ladder and use the sphere?


I'm not sure to what extent it is visible in the recording, but the control system makes it hard to see what's going on, particularly when moving fast. It's like running full-tilt while swinging your head around all the time so that you can't focus on anything properly. Especially in Edanna, since there are no man-made landmarks, it's very easy to get disoriented. I'm not sure there's much to do with the route in that age, though, as it's all pretty linear. It's the only part of the game where I didn't need a cheat sheet to get through the puzzles (It's all just running around, mostly).

The problem with topping that version of the SS run (doubling as segment 1 as well) is that the Temple Island part (the first 1:15) came off more or less flawless, and usually I lose enough time there as to make it hard to catch up later.

It's true that the segmented version can be improved, but it's past the point where it improves every 5 runs or so, so it will take more segmentation or lots of trial and error to make it really good. (I don't actually consider myself a very good speedrunner, which is why I am doing games that haven't been done yet. It's also why I prefer doing SS runs, because there is more tolerance for mistakes. I can make multi-segment runs, but in order to really optimize them, much more work must be done to each segment, so from my perspective, SS runs are for lazy people, like me. Smiley )

The sound code has not been generated by the time I transfer to segment 2 (nor will it be by the time I need the slider code), so I would have to segment again in order to not have to do downstairs for the code. I've been trying to minimize the amount of segmentation, but if a 2-segment run is in the same category as any n-segment run, I may as well just go for broke. (EDIT: It worked; now I have a 3-segment run at 9:59.)

EDIT: It's not a problem for the Riven speedrun, because you never get to see the codes, but is it SDA-legal for a segmented run to have a randomized code assigned (and visible) in an early segment and a different one used in a later segment? I recently submitted a single segment Starship Titanic speedrun, and in the game, you are given a random room number, and have to go to it later in the game. If I segmented a run so that I enter, say, room 20 in segment 2, but then I want to improve segment 1, there's no way I'm going to be assigned room 20 again in the redone version of segment 1. The only way out of this that I can see is to run segment 1 until I am satisfied, then move on to segment 2 based on the best version of segment 1. The problem is that then I can not go back to improve segment 1 again without invalidating all subsequent segments. Obviously, if the segments didn't have to be from identical games, as long as they continue at exactly the same point where the last left off, this wouldn't be a problem.
Edit history:
digama: 2011-11-27 02:25:39 am
digama: 2011-11-27 12:15:19 am
digama: 2011-11-26 05:30:12 am
Shocked The Revelation speedrun is going to be LONG. My casual test playthrough just took 5 hours, and I couldn't have spent more than one hour on the (nondeterministic) puzzles (the deterministic ones were just walkthrough'd). The vast majority of that time was due to the fact that YOU CAN'T SKIP ANYTHING. Every single cutscene is unskippable, except for a few movement animations, and you can't turn off transitions. At least the zip menu is more useful for long-range movement now, and it's pretty much going to be a necessity, since each node takes a few seconds to load.

Update: My best SS run so far is 1:12:40, and I'll post the vid shortly.
Exoray
We'd like to avoid segment inconsistencies whenever possible, so I'd say go for making your best effort in the segment 1 before moving on so that the passwords match up.
Right. In general, these games seem like you could replace segments, but if the code is visible, it probably shouldn't change before you use it. If there are segments between when you see the code and when you use it, you could probably replace those.

As for the SS runs, they look good, so if there isn't a lot of time to be saved by zipping, you could submit them.
Just checking, as I'm sure there should be no problem, but is it okay to take advantage of multilingual games and choose the language with the shortest cutscenes? I'm thinking of recording Myst V in Spanish.
Exoray
Yes there are already runs of some games in languages other than english so feel free to pick whichever you feel is best. Altough be advised that several viewers will probably complain about it Wink
Edit history:
digama: 2011-12-04 07:31:15 pm
Sorry it took so long. The Myst V run is by far the hardest speedrun I've done so far, because you have to get really lucky for all of your drawings to be accepted, on top of all the other running about one has to do. Many thanks to tjp7154 for his "fun run" (linked above), from which I have borrowed some very clever shape optimizations for Tahgira and especially Todelmer. As you'll see, I've also streamlined the shape for Laki'ahn, so that it can be drawn as one path. After lots (and lots) of failures, I've managed to finish in 25:07, which is 4:20 less than tjp7154's run. I attribute this success to (1) using "classic plus" movement mode (nodes with 360 view, as in Exile and Revelation), which moves much faster on straight sections than the Uru-style "free-move" mode, (2) linking away from the slates, rather than moving out of the way, (3) avoiding Esher's top of shaft monologue by going around, and (4) overall tightening up of movement mistakes. I doubt I could save more than a minute off this run (unless someone finds a way to avoid more of the monologues).

I tried to record in Spanish as I stated in an earlier post, but it turned out that the language option was just for the installer, not the game; I know there is a Spanish-language version of the game, but my CD seems to be stuck on English. Oh well, it was only going to potentially save 9 seconds or so, assuming the cutscenes were in fact shorter (the audio files were shorter, but there is only one video file, so it probably looks dubbed and may not have saved any time in the end). I'll post the video tomorrow, after it finishes rendering.

EDIT: As I begin work on Uru, should the calibration/character creation at the very beginning be considered part of the game for timing purposes? Also, should the two expansion packs be done in the same run or should it be three separate runs? I'll be using Uru: Complete Chronicles, and all new characters start in the Cleft, so if they were separate runs, the Cleft intro segment would be in all three.