Moon Crystal (Famicom)

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-10-28 05:05:31 pm

2013-10-28 05:03:51 pm

HELLO!

So I've been working the last couple weeks on getting familiar with this game, just playing it blind, learning the mechanics, working on boss strats.

But now I'm done with that and have been doing some active research.

Looks like the current record is an 11:01 SDA timing. I mean, I can't find any runs anywhere else. http://www.twitch.tv/neo_sporin/c/2879746 By far the best run I can find, by neo_sporin. This is on emulator using an unofficial translation but I don't think it matters at all for time comparison because we skip all the cutscenes anyway.

Also informative is this TAS by Hotarubi: http://tasvideos.org/3974S.html

I don't think the boss strats in the TAS are entirely realistic but there are things I think that can be done from it, that should improve on the live run. In particular it should be useful to do some of the double hits the TAS uses, on the bosses where we do the 1-heart attacks. (Jump attacks do extra damage when you only have one heart left).

I'd also like to try to get the skip the TAS gets in that spiky room after the second-last boss, just go right on up. For all I know it's frame perfect, but it's worth going for.

My immediate goal is going to be to get runs completed. The intermediate goal here is going to be sub-11. And well, we'll see how far this can be pushed. It's a hard game and I haven't been rushing learning it.

Thread title:

So I've been working the last couple weeks on getting familiar with this game, just playing it blind, learning the mechanics, working on boss strats.

But now I'm done with that and have been doing some active research.

Looks like the current record is an 11:01 SDA timing.  I mean, I can't find any runs anywhere else.  http://www.twitch.tv/neo_sporin/c/2879746  By far the best run I can find, by neo_sporin.  This is on emulator using an unofficial translation but I don't think it matters at all for time comparison because we skip all the cutscenes anyway.

Also informative is this TAS by Hotarubi: http://tasvideos.org/3974S.html

I don't think the boss strats in the TAS are entirely realistic but there are things I think that can be done from it, that should improve on the live run.   In particular it should be useful to do some of the double hits the TAS uses, on the bosses where we do the 1-heart attacks. (Jump attacks do extra damage when you only have one heart left).

I'd also like to try to get the skip the TAS gets in that spiky room after the second-last boss, just go right on up.  For all I know it's frame perfect, but it's worth going for.

My immediate goal is going to be to get runs completed. The intermediate goal here is going to be sub-11. And well, we'll see how far this can be pushed.  It's a hard game and I haven't been rushing learning it.

scaryice

2013-10-28 06:15:54 pm

Do you have the Famicom cart? It's pretty expensive.

presjpolk

2013-10-28 09:56:56 pm

HELLO!

I do. And it was expensive which is why I immediately dropped Faxanadu to start running it, since it was given to me.

neo_sporin

2013-10-29 11:20:18 pm

to quote what I just said on SRL IRC
OMG SOMEONE REFERENCED ME IN A THREAD!!
SUCK IT EVERYONE WHO DOUBTED ME IN GRADE SCHOOL

but really, yea sub 11:00 is pretty doable in a reasonable amount of time. I completely agree that most of the TAS boss strats are not realistically possible hence why bosses 2,3,5 i dont use 1 hp strats. 2 is pretty doable I just dont like the 1hp route the TAS uses (I just cant make it save time compared to the slow route I use)

In reference to the spike room I spent about 30 minutes fiddling with that room and the transition and NEVER got that skip to work, worst part is that room ends more runs than any other single room. Sometimes the platforms just don't cooperate. I'll probably never compete with you should you get a good SDA run as I'm just not looking to drop the cash on the game.

Theres one other person mildly fooling with the game, chunkatuff, so he may put up some times to compete at some point.

RatFunk

2013-10-30 02:56:29 am

i was afriad neo would see this... but hang in there neo needs competition, its decently fun,

presjpolk

2013-10-30 05:56:40 am

HELLO!

I'd say the game is more than decently fun. It's very well made. It's a good game, and the physics make it a fun but very challenging speed run.

cak

2013-10-30 01:43:30 pm

twitch.tv/ccaakk

Reminds me of early 90s PC platformers (in a good way). I will certainly be watching.

presjpolk

2013-11-20 01:25:45 pm

HELLO!

Whelp, I'm down to at 20:08 already. Obviously compared with an 11:01 it's really unoptimized. But it's taken a lot of work even to get that far. Smiley

neo_sporin

2013-11-21 07:03:39 pm

when I got to around 17 i did a few pacifist runs to break it up and see some areas a new way. 20:08 is the best time ive seen from anyone besides me so you're getting there

StuckInAPlate

2013-11-22 05:56:01 am

I've been playing around with some speed stuff for this game the last few days and it certainly seems like something I'd be interested in doing some runs of.

This is what I got right now as far as boss tactics:

They're all pretty reasonable after some practice...just scary 'cause you can't take a hit.

GearEater

2013-11-22 03:23:24 pm

I've been playing this game myself for the last few months casually and have recently been trying to do serious runs of it. I didn't know other people played it until I stumbled across this thread and had only seen the TAS.
I think I'm running the same unofficial translation as neo_sporin so unfortunately can't offer you any legit competition pres. Will keep up with your progress though! Good luck.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-11-22 05:08:22 pm

2013-11-22 05:07:00 pm

HELLO!

One thing that I couldn't quite understand from Hotarubi's notes, that boxfat found last night actually, was that it's possible to do double mid-air attacks. Jump, attack, doublejump, attack, gets you two mid-air hits. At one health that's 6 hearts of damage.

Of course, the downside to this strat is you have no leeway. Smiley

I plan to make use of it in particular against the last boss, particularly phase 2 where you already have to be in mid-air. Phase 1 I really don't want to be at one health for because, while I can do it no-damage, I have no freaking clue how to do phase 2 no damage. Smiley

neo_sporin

2013-11-22 05:35:59 pm

the timing on the double jump double attack is really awkward. I use it on boss 6 but its really turns into jump attack jump over because of height problem. Theres not really a human possible way to do a 6 damage jump in the TAS. When im feeling confident on phase 2 of last boss you can dps him without moving if you double jump double attack timed well.

No damage on phase 2 is pretty easy overall without the strat. You jump attack jump attack run away. Jump over fire and the balls should follow you up enough to just run under, at which point you run up and get in 2 more hits and win.

Reference my video in your original post for that slower strat. Quick kill relatively easy in practice, but any time i have a run going I wuss out and do safe strats on him.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-11-22 09:18:48 pm

2013-11-22 08:57:33 pm

HELLO!

Good point, I should re-watch your video now that I'm getting close. Smiley

Using Twitchtools now to download it and make a local copy.

StuckInAPlate

2013-11-26 12:13:11 pm

I finally finished a run! Execution was really good for most of it, but then my mind blanked in the room before the last boss causing me to die twice and lose 25~30 seconds...which is super lame! Nevertheless I ended up with a 10:16 (!!): http://www.twitch.tv/stuckinaplate/c/3303844

I'm hoping next time around I can pull off a sub-10 deathless. That'd be pretty.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-11-26 06:44:22 pm

2013-11-26 12:31:16 pm

HELLO!

Nice job.

My plan is to do some more level grinding before I do more attempts.

--

OK I just watched the run. No wonder you took a long time to get a run. Those are suicide strats on every boss. That's so amazing.

And to think the run is so improvable thanks to 6-2 issues.

neo_sporin

2013-11-26 09:27:31 pm

oh the run is definitely improvable especially with more suicidal strats, my 6-1 boss is a super slow (but safe) strat compared to optimal. I think my safe 3/5 boss strats are not that much slower than suicide, and infinitely safer but very improvable I agree.

neo_sporin

2013-11-26 09:32:14 pm

woops, ignore that last post--didnt realize stuckinaplate had a run up

StuckInAPlate

2013-12-09 04:06:29 pm

Got a 9:50 earlier today. http://www.twitch.tv/stuckinaplate/c/3368329

Still lots of room for improvement...mostly coming from the bad spike jump in Stage 2 and the slow execution of the TAS jump in Stage 6. I'm thinking 9:3x is a reasonable goal time for right now, though it certainly could go lower with excellent play.

StuckInAPlate

2013-12-20 02:16:34 am

9:44 -> http://www.twitch.tv/stuckinaplate/c/3421451

I'm getting way more consistent. It's nice. I feel I'm no longer scared of any of the bosses... 'cept for maybe the first one or first phase final boss if I'm trying to get that last hit in quick (as seen in the 9:44 video).

I'm having some troubles with my computer though...I get the tiniest bit of input lag when I'm streaming which can mess me up pretty bad in a few locations. If I can resolve this somehow I think we could start seeing some good looking times.

Also I tried doing some more research on the speedrunning history of the game and came across this site: http://www27.atwiki.jp/timeattack/pages/277.html

Seems like someone got ~9:27 a few years back. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a video, so who knows if it's legit or not. Whatever the case it's a perfectly reasonable time so I want a time at least as good before I'm spent on this game.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-12-20 09:13:38 am

2013-12-20 09:13:11 am

HELLO!

Yeah one of the first things I did was to try to find videos, and I couldn't find any videos on Nico or Youtube.

By the way if I'm reading that right, that site says it's Hotarubi who got that 9:27. I guess it's not surprising he ran the game live if he later TASed it. Smiley

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2014-02-03 05:24:34 pm

2014-02-03 05:23:19 pm

HELLO!

So Hotarubi sent me his run. It looks like it's a 9:25.xx SDA timing.

He doesn't do the (what he tells me is) frame and pixel perfect trick jump in that spikey room in 6-2, but he does get onto the *last* platform, where you begin the 6-3 escape sequence, at the end of 6-2.

His boss fights don't seem to do anything we don't know about, but they're just really well done. Just such a polished run.

I just started working on this again today, re-made my savestates and all that. Having studied both the hotarubi and stuckinaplate runs tonight, next I'm going to look at the TAS inputs on that spikey jump and try to learn that, then work on that third jump. I finally got the first trick jump that you both get in your runs, today. Smiley

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2014-02-04 12:03:25 pm

2014-02-04 12:02:21 pm

HELLO!

Grr I can't even replicate that jump at all, up in the spike room that StuckInAPlate got. Driving me nuts.

The TAS pushes up at the exact frame. I hope that's not required, and that you can hit up sooner, since it looks like the double jump is itself frame perfect?

StuckInAPlate

Edit history:

StuckInAPlate: 2014-02-18 10:51:31 pm

2014-02-18 10:29:38 pm

Oh nice! Would you be able to send me Hotarubi's video somehow? I haven't played lately, but I'm pretty sure I timed the getting onto the last platform vs. going the intended route and they were pretty much equal with the intended route being easier IMO. First trick jump you're talking about is the jump from the stairs at the beginning of 6-2 where you drop down from when escaping?

The TAS jump is pretty silly. You kinda need to be falling from the right position and the right speed and then do a maximum height double jump starting on the exact right frame. The way I usually try to do it is do a single jump into the screen transition, when screen transitions turn the single jump into a maximum height double jump, and that will give you the magical frame/pixel to do another maximum height double jump to reach the ledge.

So basically just do a maximum height double jump then do an over maximum height double jump haha. I don't remember the specifics but to get the maximum height out of a double jump isn't super precise, so you should be able to get that part of it down good. The frame perfect part is the majority of the challenge.

And yeah, pressing up at the exact right time isn't required. You'll grab the ledge if you pull the jump off correctly, no up involved. It's generally good to up ASAP of course.

Oh nice! Would you be able to send me Hotarubi's video somehow? I haven't played lately, but I'm pretty sure I timed the getting onto the last platform vs. going the intended route and they were pretty much equal with the intended route being easier IMO. First trick jump you're talking about is the jump from the stairs at the beginning of 6-2 where you drop down from when escaping?

The TAS jump is pretty silly. You kinda need to be falling from the right position and the right speed and then do a maximum height double jump starting on the exact right frame. The way I usually try to do it is do a single jump into the screen transition, when screen transitions turn the single jump into a maximum height double jump, and that will give you the magical frame/pixel to do another maximum height double jump to reach the ledge.

So basically just do a maximum height double jump then do an over maximum height double jump haha. I don't remember the specifics but to get the maximum height out of a double jump isn't super precise, so you should be able to get that part of it down good. The frame perfect part is the majority of the challenge.

And yeah, pressing up at the exact right time isn't required. You'll grab the ledge if you pull the jump off correctly, no up involved. It's generally good to up ASAP of course.

presjpolk

2014-02-19 12:39:42 am

HELLO!

Sent you a PM.

And yeah, the first dropoff when you escape, is the one I'm talking about. I feel a lot safer doing it, honestly. I'd believe you that it's not faster if you do the very end there perfect, but honestly I hate the end there. Smiley

I generally get there with 2 hearts. Take a hit from the flying electric guy, get up there, run on into the boss and hope not to choke. Smiley

I just can't get it at all, that double jump , though. I studied the TAS frame by frame but I just don't get it. But you want to go up when you're *falling* from the apex? I've probably been going too soon. Will have to work on it some more, thanks.