Might and Magic 8: Day of the Destroyer

2018-02-11 05:49:22 am

TASer

I finished a couple 11:30 runs and a 10:00 run.
On the latter, I made some stupid looking mistakes (mis click telekinesis, and escape out of telekinesis because I'm too trigger happy on the escape key).

But I'm content with it for now.

Snabel

2018-02-11 05:55:38 am

Yeah i just saw it, pretty good.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:01:03 am

Just a thought, dont the prisons have an ID aswell? cause maybe then you can save the traveltime between them, if you can clickbuffer infront of another object that has the same ID, when you are on the plane between planes.

MUGG

2018-02-11 06:04:40 am

TASer

Quote from Snabel:

Just a thought, dont the prisons have an ID aswell? cause maybe then you can save the traveltime between them, if you can clickbuffer infront of another object that has the same ID, when you are on the plane between planes.

It does not work outdoors.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:06:53 am

weird, but okay, anyway i will probably do my own run today, using the same route as you, hoping for around 7-8 minutes.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:24:10 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:23:08 am

2018-02-11 06:22:43 am

TASer

I'm thinking if Cauri could be skipped at this point.

Yes it would make the run dangerous, but it could work out.
You'd need to grind Invisibility and Town Portal scrolls on top of the Stone to Flesh scroll.
Use Invisibility scroll to go through Escaton's Crystal and Water Prison (I'm not sure it works, if it doesn't we could also look for a same ID object for the exit).

Just saying, it might be worth looking into

However we would have no access to telekinesis-ing entrances from a distance.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:27:22 am

you will have to go to the airportal anyway, so why not just pick her up on the way? doing all the stuff with cauri probably takes up, 20 seconds in total of the run, i think that is worth it due to all the telekenesis stuff, and town portal to dagger wound for example.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:35:27 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:34:50 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:34:05 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:33:24 am

2018-02-11 06:33:11 am

TASer

Actually it takes 55 seconds, I timed it from my run:

- Going to free Cauri
- Going for the rescue money
- Going for the spell shop
- Grinding for spell books
- Teaching the spell books
- Going for the coach house

If you can grind Town Portal and Invisibility scrolls from the Ravenshore shops reasonably fast, you save like 10-25 seconds.
The scroll grinding and the increased risk of dying in plane between planes is probably too much for RTA, though...
I didn't consider if we have $ after each death warp though.

Maybe I will do solo runs as a gimmick sometime.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:35:39 am

you shouldnt really count the time it takes to free cauri, cause it is basically on the path, so no problem there.
is there a telekenesis scroll, cause then you could enter the shop faster and get what you need?
also grinding for spellbooks isn't really an issue in segmented speedruns

i think this only takes about 30 seconds in reality

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:41:59 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:41:31 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:41:03 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 06:40:51 am

2018-02-11 06:40:25 am

TASer

Quote from Snabel:

you shouldnt really count the time it takes to free cauri, cause it is basically on the path

We can go to plane of Air right after entering Murmurwoods.
The only reason we don't do it, is because we need to rescue Cauri - it's a detour we take in order to get her.
As for the extra reagent, you can just buy one cheap item from a shop instead.

Quote:

is there a telekenesis scroll, cause then you could enter the shop faster and get what you need?

What do you mean?
The idea is to grind stone to flesh in Daggerwound, and Town Portal + Invisibility in the two Ravenshore shops.
You can get a first try stone to flesh in Daggerwound maybe every 10 minutes. After that it's just another matter of luck if you can get both other scrolls within a 20 sec time span.

I'm really more worried about the increased risk of dying in the endgame, all it takes is one hit from some random chaos lord.

Quote:

also grinding for spellbooks isn't really an issue in segmented speedruns

I got the books first try in my run, so it's accounted for.

Everything Cauri-related still takes ~50 seconds.

Of course I agree the time save would be minimal. But it's there.

[quote="Snabel"]you shouldnt really count the time it takes to free cauri, cause it is basically on the path[/quote]
We can go to plane of Air right after entering Murmurwoods.
The only reason we don't do it, is because we need to rescue Cauri - it's a detour we take in order to get her.
As for the extra reagent, you can just buy one cheap item from a shop instead.

[quote]is there a telekenesis scroll, cause then you could enter the shop faster and get what you need?[/quote]
What do you mean?
The idea is to grind stone to flesh in Daggerwound, and Town Portal + Invisibility in the two Ravenshore shops.
You can get a first try stone to flesh in Daggerwound maybe every 10 minutes. After that it's just another matter of luck if you can get both other scrolls within a 20 sec time span.

I'm really more worried about the increased risk of dying in the endgame, all it takes is one hit from some random chaos lord.

[quote]also grinding for spellbooks isn't really an issue in segmented speedruns[/quote]
I got the books first try in my run, so it's accounted for.

Everything Cauri-related still takes ~50 seconds.

Of course I agree the time save would be minimal. But it's there.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:45:03 am

okay so the detour to get Cauri is probably about 7-8 seconds
---------------
i mean, if there is a telekenesis scroll, this could save time if you do the Cauri route (which i highly prefer atm), cause then you can use telekenesis to enter the shop after getting the rescue money.
This will not only get you faster into the shop to buy the books, but it will also set you up to get quicker to the coach.
---------------
i really dont see how you can waste almost a minute on the Cauri stuff, it seems very weird to me.

Snabel

2018-02-11 06:50:13 am

Another thought though, maybe it would be better to have telekenesis on quickcast, since invisibility is almost useless at this point.
The only place i see invisibilty used is in Escatons Crystal.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-11 07:12:50 am

MUGG: 2018-02-11 07:10:26 am

2018-02-11 07:03:35 am

TASer

Where are you going to get a telekinesis scroll? You could only get one reasonably fast when visiting the Alvar shop. That would only be worth going for in a segmented run. (So go for it! :))

You are actually rasing a good point with setting telekinesis on quickcast. That lets you save an additional 1-2 seconds per use so skipping Cauri is probably not worth after all.
I can see RTA could set telekinesis on quickcast after Cauri casts Fly before Crystal (so we never have to cast it again anyway).

-----

So just to sum it up, assuming skipping Cauri does save 50~55 seconds:
- You need to grind for invisibility and town portal scrolls, so you lose at least ~15 seconds.
- You cannot use telekinesis, and assuming you use it at least 7 times, you lose 35 seconds.
- Assuming you set telekinesis as a quickspell, 1.5 sec timesave * 7 uses = you lose ~11 seconds

So the route loses about 5~10 seconds in theory, assuming everything else goes perfect.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-02-11 07:09:30 am

2018-02-11 07:08:45 am

About knowledge-sharing... I don't know which is more permanent, the SDA wiki or that guide on SRC, but so long as it's not in a disorderly thread and in people's heads, all the better. I suppose a wiki is specially designed for its task, e.g. it automatically generates a TOC, and I don't know about SRC, but wikis are also designed for communal editing. I guess someone can later take your guide and create a new version of it but then you have to ask someone to delete the old one... all in all I do feel a wiki is the smartest you can go with.

Okay, I think this is looking like the next run should be legit in every sense. Keep working on it boys!

Snabel

2018-02-11 07:09:29 am

Yeah so i go and buy the stone to flesh on dagger wound, and then when getting the rescue money i pick up a telekenesis scroll on the way to the shop.
It is a bit expensive, so i probably cant pick it up BEFORE getting the rescue money, sadly.

---------------

Also i will set telekenesis on quickcast, been thinking about it for a while, so i will use that in my new run aswell.

Snabel

2018-02-11 07:18:27 am

Also yeah, a wiki for all the bugs and glitches would definitely be nice! ^

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-11 02:58:42 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-11 02:57:31 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-11 02:57:16 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-11 02:56:19 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-11 02:54:11 pm

2018-02-11 02:53:49 pm

TASer

I measured the detour from the coach to the Blackthorne house to get Cauri's rescue money as 16 seconds. The three books cost 5500.
I was brainstorming for alternatives and I found that you could
-in an armor shop, sell Cauri's chainmail and boots for ~7100.
-in a curiosities shop, sell Cauri's boots and ring for ~6100.

If you go for the armor shop in Ravenshore before riding to Alvar and sell, that takes only ~11 seconds (saves 5 seconds over the previous route).
(I just find the boots to be hard to click on...)

Or you could go for the curiosities shop in Alvar, sell and buy telekinesis scroll.
The shop is a little bit further away than Ravenshore's armor shop, but you gain 9 sec from the telekinesis (minus the time it takes to select it in the shop to buy it).

I haven't gone through the game with the "sell items" idea yet, idk if there are money issues down the road I didn't consider. But should be worth going for it instead of the rescue money.

Snabel

Edit history:

Snabel: 2018-02-11 03:50:53 pm

2018-02-11 03:49:49 pm

That is a nice thought, i just ran the game though, so it might take awhile before i make a new and improved run, unless some major new bugs appear.
Here is my run:

LotBlind

2018-06-01 04:31:50 am

MUGG: can you weigh in on the verification?

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-06-09 12:28:34 pm

2018-06-09 12:26:16 pm

TASer

@LotBlind, I looked here rather coincidentally. Contact me on Twitter/mugg1991 in the future if you need me.

Personally I would love a single-segment / RTA run on the unaltered game. Snabel's run is segmented and uses a patch (due to the presence of quicksaving). That is not to discredit Snabel's efforts. I just am not a fan of segmented runs or patched games. It might be excusable since the Greyface patch is rather popular, otherwise it could be considered a hack.

0:54 What happened to the scroll on the cursor? Is there a hotkey to make it go back to the inventory? I didn't know about such a key.

2:35 Music is fading out here for no apparent reason...?

Menuing is slow in some places (such as first shop), but insanely fast in others. Overall it looks fine.

In the plane between planes, maybe you can have Cauri take damage from projectiles instead of lava.

The run gets the Cauri rescue money. I suggested in my previous post that it may be faster to sell Cauri's armor or accessories to get sufficient money about 5 sec faster.

@LotBlind, I looked here rather coincidentally. Contact me on Twitter/mugg1991 in the future if you need me.

Personally I would love a single-segment / RTA run on the unaltered game. Snabel's run is segmented and uses a patch (due to the presence of quicksaving). That is not to discredit Snabel's efforts. I just am not a fan of segmented runs or patched games. It might be excusable since the Greyface patch is rather popular, otherwise it could be considered a hack.

0:54 What happened to the scroll on the cursor? Is there a hotkey to make it go back to the inventory? I didn't know about such a key.

2:35 Music is fading out here for no apparent reason...?

Menuing is slow in some places (such as first shop), but insanely fast in others. Overall it looks fine.

In the plane between planes, maybe you can have Cauri take damage from projectiles instead of lava.

The run gets the Cauri rescue money. I suggested in my previous post that it may be faster to sell Cauri's armor or accessories to get sufficient money about 5 sec faster.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-06-10 01:03:44 pm

2018-06-10 01:03:20 pm

Took the liberty to copy your message over to the verification post. Responses will go there because this is the planning thread.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-08-05 11:29:21 am

2018-08-05 11:24:09 am

So guys, this is going to be categorized as "with deaths and large-skip glitches" because it seems you could probably define a non-glitched category as well, without the item warping thing. Feel free to agree on such a definition and submit such runs.

On this note, you also have to decide whether the previous 14:13 run we had constitutes a no-major-skip-glitches run? Is it does, we'll leave it.

gammadragon

2018-08-29 03:27:25 am

Might be magic...

Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't been around much, but wow so many new glitches! The run is really confusing to watch now, but almost half the time that I achieved Smiley

Well done on all the new achievements in this space.

Cheers,
gammadragon

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-09-17 02:39:12 pm

MUGG: 2018-09-17 02:37:41 pm

MUGG: 2018-09-17 02:35:02 pm

MUGG: 2018-09-17 02:28:44 pm

2018-09-17 02:27:56 pm

TASer

Quote from LotBlind:

On this note, you also have to decide whether the previous 14:13 run we had constitutes a no-major-skip-glitches run? Is it does, we'll leave it.

Yes it does. The alliance skip is a major skip glitch.
A glitchless run must beat the story line (I don't remember it exactly but something along the lines of... bring the letter from Daggerwound to Ravenshore, bring the Troll from Ironsand Desert to Alvar, form the alliance, go to Regna, get the heart stones and finish the game).
Getting the heart stones can be done out of order and using invisibility inside dungeons is not a skip glitch. But entering the house with Xantor in it before he arrives story-wise would be considered a bug and defeats the purpose of a glitchless category.

Hey @gammadragon!
Indeed I'm very happy this run evolved so much.
If you are ever interested in picking it up again, maybe I can help explain the bugs & route to you.

LotBlind

2018-09-18 10:04:56 am

Okay, the old run is still up.

I hope the story completion category definition is sufficiently unambiguous. As I said, I can easily see there's some kind of non-glitched category to be had here. Most of the time it's defined based on which tricks or glitches you can't use, but we do also have "all main quests" style runs, e.g. we'd accept one for Morrowind. If that's more like what the definition is, if submissions are sent for that category, feel free to use that tag. However, that makes it sound like you can use whatever tricks, you just can't skip the quests.