Might and Magic 8: Day of the Destroyer

2018-02-09 07:46:33 am

TASer

Quote from Snabel:

I just used the renderglitch on the waterportal and something weird happened. I ended up in the corner, shown on the picture, I havent been able to recreate this, just thought I would share it

Oh wow, that is interesting. We need to find out what happened.

Snabel

2018-02-09 08:06:37 am

Previously i had used the scrollglitch to get inside of the airportal (using a reagent i found on the ground), i used that same reagent to get into the waterportal, so maybe the two bugs somehow connected?

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-09 09:36:41 am

2018-02-09 09:23:54 am

TASer

Quote from Snabel:

Previously i had used the scrollglitch to get inside of the airportal (using a reagent i found on the ground), i used that same reagent to get into the waterportal, so maybe the two bugs somehow connected?

That's exactly what I've been doing in RTA attempts, but I always end up in the plane of Water's entrance point.
I tried a few things, but still no luck.
It might be working because of your patched game, or something you're doing. So please keep trying and maybe record a video. Smiley

Quote from Snabel:

Its really easy, i take the boat from daggerwound, the moment i enter ravenshore the shop has predetermined scrolls (...)
When the scroll finally is there, i save infront of the shop and load up the autosave and take the boat again.
I go to the shop and load up the save infront of the shop, then i go in and take the scroll and continue from that save.

Unless I misunderstand, that is basicly using savegames outside of your current speedrun.
You have to include the time that you spent going in front of the shop to check if the scroll is there.
You can't just fix RNG to your liking and then save, and when you arrive there you can load up your "good RNG scenario" savegame and continue. That's not how it works. Unless SDA allows rules like this, but I will go ahead and say that it is not valid. Then again SDA has allowed a modded version that changes movement... Something you will almost never see allowed on speedrun.com leaderboards...

Quote:

the moment i enter ravenshore the shop has predetermined scrolls

Do you mean it decides on a pool of items that might appear?
Or are you saying it decides on the exact items that will appear?

In my game, the items are decided at the moment you are entering the shop.
And I'm playing the GOG version.

[quote="Snabel"]Previously i had used the scrollglitch to get inside of the airportal (using a reagent i found on the ground), i used that same reagent to get into the waterportal, so maybe the two bugs somehow connected?[/quote]

That's exactly what I've been doing in RTA attempts, but I always end up in the plane of Water's entrance point.
I tried a few things, but still no luck.
It might be working because of your patched game, or something you're doing. So please keep trying and maybe record a video. :)

[quote="Snabel"]Its really easy, i take the boat from daggerwound, the moment i enter ravenshore the shop has predetermined scrolls (...)
When the scroll finally is there, i [u]save infront of the shop[/u] and load up the autosave and take the boat again.
[u]I go to the shop and load up the save infront of the shop[/u], then i go in and take the scroll and continue from that save.[/quote]

Unless I misunderstand, that is basicly using savegames outside of your current speedrun.
You have to include the time that you spent going in front of the shop to check if the scroll is there. 
You can't just fix RNG to your liking and then save, and when you arrive there you can load up your "good RNG scenario" savegame and continue. That's not how it works. Unless SDA allows rules like this, but I will go ahead and say that it is not valid. Then again SDA has allowed a modded version that changes movement...  Something you will almost never see allowed on speedrun.com leaderboards...

[quote] the moment i enter ravenshore the shop has predetermined scrolls [/quote]
Do you mean it decides on a pool of items that [i]might[/i] appear? 
Or are you saying it decides on the exact items that will appear?

In my game, the items are decided at the moment you are entering the shop.
And I'm playing the GOG version.

Snabel

2018-02-09 09:51:47 am

Isn't the whole point of a segmented run, to use segments? i make a segment outside of the shop when i know the scrolls i need are there (IN MY CURRENT RUN). If i cant do it this way do you really want me to run the game over and over again until i get good RNG on both ravenshore (now perhaps daggerwound) AND alvar? cause that just seems like timewaste in a segmented run, its not like doing it my way saves time anyway, it just makes it easier to do the run, since i dont have to rely on RNG when it comes to which scrolls are in the shop.

----------------------

Also as far as im aware, the patch really dosen't make your movement ingame faster, i didnt feel a difference when having the patch switched off, there is however a mode in the patch, that makes you able to travel at double speed, but this would be very obvious to spot in a run, and i dont use that feature.

----------------------

Okay i just checked, i can save outside the shop aswell before entering and then get new items everytime i load up the game, this will make it a lot easier actually. But i still see nothing wrong in doing it my way, as mentioned i dont save time on it anyway.

Isn't the whole point of a segmented run, to use segments? i make a segment outside of the shop when i know the scrolls i need are there  (IN MY CURRENT RUN). If i cant do it this way do you really want me to run the game over and over again until i get good RNG on both ravenshore (now perhaps daggerwound) AND alvar? cause that just seems like timewaste in a segmented run, its not like doing it my way saves time anyway, it just makes it easier to do the run, since i dont have to rely on RNG when it comes to which scrolls are in the shop.

----------------------

Also as far as im aware, the patch really dosen't make your movement ingame faster, i didnt feel a difference when having the patch switched off, there is however a mode in the patch, that makes you able to travel at double speed, but this would be very obvious to spot in a run, and i dont use that feature.

----------------------

Okay i just checked, i can save outside the shop aswell before entering and then get new items everytime i load up the game, this will make it a lot easier actually. But i still see nothing wrong in doing it my way, as mentioned i dont save time on it anyway.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-02-09 10:39:28 am

LotBlind: 2018-02-09 10:20:59 am

2018-02-09 10:20:06 am

Snabel: it was brought up in verification ~~but I think gammadragon wasn't necessary vocal/clear enough about what exactly was being done~~: how you handled the shop RNG does indeed constitute cheating on SDA as well. No more of that, please. We're not going to remove the run seeing as it looks like there's going to be a faster one soon anyway.

We can't start accepting cases where "it's the same in practice" because of slippery slopes, and because we often don't have the know-how to be able to confirm this kind of stuff anyway. For all you know, entering the shop twice may have manipulated something else about the game without you realizing... for example it could cause the shop to be stored in a cache and load faster. There's quite obviously a LOT you don't know about your game, Snabel. Also, you're making it sound as if RNG manipulation wasn't always a stumbling stone in speedrunning.

MUGG: a good part of why we ultimately allowed the patch was because it seems to be a kind of staple answer to compatibility issues. Compatibility is an actual reason to allow unofficial patches even though those are generally not favored. If you guys can do all the same tricks and neither of you is gaining on the other in movement speed, this would only leave invisible things like RNG patterns (not an issue in segmented runs anyway). So as far as SDA is concerned, you might as well use the quick saves on the patched version to make your testing more efficient.

Snabel: it was brought up in verification [s]but I think gammadragon wasn't necessary vocal/clear enough about what exactly was being done[/s]: how you handled the shop RNG does indeed constitute cheating on SDA as well. No more of that, please. We're not going to remove the run seeing as it looks like there's going to be a faster one soon anyway.

We can't start accepting cases where "it's the same in practice" because of slippery slopes, and because we often don't have the know-how to be able to confirm this kind of stuff anyway. For all you know, entering the shop twice may have manipulated something else about the game without you realizing... for example it could cause the shop to be stored in a cache and load faster. There's quite obviously a LOT you don't know about your game, Snabel. Also, you're making it sound as if RNG manipulation wasn't always a stumbling stone in speedrunning.

MUGG: a good part of why we ultimately allowed the patch was because it seems to be a kind of staple answer to compatibility issues. Compatibility is an actual reason to allow unofficial patches even though those are generally not favored. If you guys can do all the same tricks and neither of you is gaining on the other in movement speed, this would only leave invisible things like RNG patterns (not an issue in segmented runs anyway). So as far as SDA is concerned, you might as well use the quick saves on the patched version to make your testing more efficient.

Snabel

2018-02-09 10:28:06 am

That is fair enough, I will use the new method that for example Mugg uses, to get the right scrolls.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-09 01:16:20 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-09 01:13:52 pm

MUGG: 2018-02-09 01:13:30 pm

2018-02-09 01:11:57 pm

TASer

I found you can hold Ctrl while moving, to move forward + a bit sideward. I made a little test and it saves about 0.50 seconds every 19 seconds or so. But it's probably ok not to use, for now.

---

The fine mm6 speedrun community at https://www.twitch.tv/ichimarnold 's chat actually informed me that click buffering isn't exclusive to items. In theory it should be possible to reach Escaton's door and the Lords' doors from afar, if you can find an object on another map with the exact same ID. Since the IDs are in the (ten) thousands, it is going to be tedious to search...

The address of the thing that you hover your mouse over, according to Cheat Engine: $00517A98

Example: the S'ton dude at the beginning of Daggerwound has an ID of 3.
In the dragonhunter castle, the knight on the right also has an ID of 3.
If you buffer a click on S'ton, you can talk to the knight from afar.

Object IDs increment in 8. When you throw items in Ravenshore library, it will go like this:
item 1 = 2
item 2= 10
item 3= 18
...

So if you are on a map and want to interact with ID 22, and you are on another map where there is a tree with ID 23, then you can forget about your idea of clicking a tree because there probably won't be one. That's all the limited information I can give at the moment, but I will do some extensive research on the Escaton thing.

I found you can hold Ctrl while moving, to move forward + a bit sideward. I made a little test and it saves about 0.50 seconds every 19 seconds or so. But it's probably ok not to use, for now.

---

The fine mm6 speedrun community at https://www.twitch.tv/ichimarnold 's chat actually informed me that click buffering isn't exclusive to items. In theory it should be possible to reach Escaton's door and the Lords' doors from afar, if you can find an object on another map with the exact same ID. Since the IDs are in the (ten) thousands, it is going to be tedious to search...

The address of the thing that you hover your mouse over, according to Cheat Engine: $00517A98

Example: the S'ton dude at the beginning of Daggerwound has an ID of 3.
In the dragonhunter castle, the knight on the right also has an ID of 3.
If you buffer a click on S'ton, you can talk to the knight from afar.

Object IDs increment in 8. When you throw items in Ravenshore library, it will go like this:
item 1 = 2
item 2= 10
item 3= 18
...

So if you are on a map and want to interact with ID 22, and you are on another map where there is a tree with ID 23, then you can forget about your idea of clicking a tree because there probably won't be one. That's all the limited information I can give at the moment, but I will do some extensive research on the Escaton thing.

Snabel

Edit history:

Snabel: 2018-02-09 02:25:25 pm

Snabel: 2018-02-09 02:11:48 pm

2018-02-09 01:58:13 pm

.

Snabel

2018-02-09 02:05:28 pm

I tried making the S'ton/Knight thing work, and I couldn't, maybe you can make a video about it?

MUGG

2018-02-09 04:06:06 pm

TASer

Yup confirmed. You can skip walking to Escaton's or any of the Lords' rooms. I'm doing some big testing.
I will probably compile the results in some spreadsheet in a google doc tomorrow.

Snabel

Edit history:

Snabel: 2018-02-09 04:07:21 pm

2018-02-09 04:06:58 pm

can you please tell me how you do it at least? cause then i can do my own testing. Also i dont know what that "cheat engine" thing is, do you use that to look at ID's?

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-09 04:16:38 pm

2018-02-09 04:16:05 pm

TASer

Cheat Engine lets you look at memory addresses of programs.
It will be essential for you to get familiar with that program. But it's not that hard. There is probably some good quick guides on Youtube.
Then just look at address $00517A98

The most important IDs to look out for are:
1806 Water prison, Lord room
1814 Water prison, Lord room
3326 Escaton's room
10734 Earth prison, Lord room
12726 Fire prison, Lord room
16270 Escaton's room

If you find any objects on another map with the same ID, then you can click buffer on it to reach those rooms early.
For example, this piece of wall is ID 16270 on Daggerwound. Save in front of it, load a save from Escaton's palace while clicking at where the wall was, and you can enter Escaton's room.

And yes, houses are made up of hundreds of wall pieces that each have their own ID.

Snabel

2018-02-09 04:18:29 pm

oh so you actually have to make it to the palace to do the buffer thing?

have you found what objects correspond to the other ID's you listed?

Snabel

2018-02-09 04:21:44 pm

just tried it, this is so stupid hahahaha mugg you are a genius omg hahah

MUGG

2018-02-09 04:26:59 pm

TASer

I PM'd you the results for now. But I think it would be nicer to have screenshots in a spreadsheet or something. I will see what I can do tomorrow. At the very least, I want to find the most suitable places to set up the buffers.

Snabel

2018-02-09 04:30:51 pm

very nice job man, this stuff is insane haha

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2018-02-10 12:47:33 pm

2018-02-10 12:40:18 pm

TASer

Spreadsheet with IDs

I found some close calls where I didn't find the wall piece:

- 10734:
Daggerwound Abandoned Temple pyramid?
Alvar Wasp nest?
Murmurwoods Sun temple?
plane of Air Zephyr's house?
plane between planes, giant sword?
Ironsand desert, one of the two chests in the town?
Shadowspire, on the mad necromancer's dungeon?
plane of fire, on one of the houses in North east?

- 12726:
Plane between planes, on the fire prison entrance?
Ironsand desert, on the dragon cave?
plane of Fire, one of the houses in the West?

- I didn't actively look for 2182 (Air prison lord room) yet.

Snabel

2018-02-10 12:45:48 pm

Goodjob on finding them, i just looked at it, and it actually seems that only the Escaton room one would be useful?
Cause the others aren't on the main path, and going to get them would lose the time gained anyway im sure.
The one for the waterprison seems best, but the time saved in the water prison is minimal, maybe 2-4 seconds

MUGG

2018-02-10 12:48:58 pm

TASer

The search is not finished. I found many close calls. See the previous post.

LotBlind

2018-02-10 12:53:35 pm

"The fine mm6 speedrun community at the twitch chat" - that's exactly why this kind of knowledge ultimately belongs in a wiki. Perhaps you two can see the benefits? Information can get lost if it's just on somebody's cloud drive, let alone hard drive, and nobody wants to dig it up from multiple sources. It's not very difficult to edit the SDA wiki (easier than any other wiki I've tried editing in fact). If the game series tends to have a lot of the same tricks, there is an argument for creating just one top page for the whole series...

Snabel

2018-02-10 12:54:56 pm

Sounds like a good idea. Although i also know that Mugg posts all of this information on his youtube channel.

MUGG

2018-02-10 01:04:11 pm

TASer

@LotBlind, or it can go in a guide like here.

I'm sure at this point, everyone in the mm6-8 communities knows all the tricks.
It started with finding bugs in mm8, then I raised awareness here, they started testing, then they told me you can buffer clicks on objects. They hang out in my twitch chat, and I hang out in theirs. So communication / information sharing works out fine.

Snabel

2018-02-10 01:08:35 pm

I think he means, if for some reason many years from now, your document for example gets taken down, then all the information is basically lost. There is no way for new players to know all the stuff you find out now, if you dont share it on a wiki or on your youtube channel.

MUGG

2018-02-11 03:50:25 am

TASer

I added 2182 objects to the sheet. I checked most of the close-calls again and didn't find a wall piece.
So maybe we can start re-routing now.

Each skip will be worth the detour I think.
In RTA I'm considering doing the trick with the Air prison too because I've lost many runs to the high jump tactic now (game sometimes doesn't give back control until after the door is out of vision)...

Here are the objects I recommend right now:
- Escaton's room = Plane of Air - 4th staircase step
- Waterprison lord room =Ironsand Desert - destroyed building corner
- Airprison lord room = Ironsand Desert - destroyed building wooden post
- Earthprison lord room = Ravenshore - house
- Fireprison lord room = Shadowspire - house

Snabel

Edit history:

Snabel: 2018-02-11 05:29:22 am

2018-02-11 05:25:02 am

Just throwing it out there, i dont think water and airprison are really nescesarry to do this on, since they only take about 10-15 seconds to go through.
I am almost sure that doing the bug, will take the same, if not more, time than that.

Also since the earth and fireprison aren't really on the path of the run, do you think these would be good? maybe you can save a few seconds, but its not gonna be much.