Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

nate

2007-09-14 07:47:46 pm

Quote:

in a way, the community has changed the course of a game's develoment.

what is your evidence for that claim?

Andrew_Mills

2007-09-14 08:16:03 pm

AlphaStrategyGui des.com

Quote:

what is your evidence for that claim?

While I wouldn't put it as strongly as that, I would certainly say with complete confidence that we (the SCU/M2k2 communities) heavily influenced the design of the 2nd and, ultimately, the 3rd Prime game.

We both know that a lot of the findings in the US + PAL versions of MP2 were removed/'fixed' in the Japanese Dark Echoes (boost guardian not pre-loaded, speed tricks removed etc). Findings that were first documented by both communities on our respective forums.

We know that Retro watched us from a far and noted down our findings (confirmed to me by ex-retro employee Zoid when he told me that 'they' [Retro] "were watching us closely").

We know that the Ghetto jump (so prevailant in the last 2 games) was altered in MP3, thanks to the game attempting to disable the SJ when sliding up against the walls.

Bomb Jumps can no longer be strung together past a DBJ, a direct result of us exploiting the HBJ, suntower IBJ etc.

The Screw Attack exploit from MP2 was also completely removed. All of these, a DIRECT result of our findings.

I reckon the planets structure was part attempt to prevent severe SB's, but also perhaps they liked that structure from MPH? Only retro truly know the answer to that...

[quote]
what is your evidence for that claim?[/quote]
While I wouldn't put it as strongly as that, I would certainly say with complete confidence that we (the SCU/M2k2 communities) heavily [i]influenced[/i] the design of the 2nd and, ultimately, the 3rd Prime game.

We both know that a lot of the findings in the US + PAL versions of MP2 were removed/'fixed' in the Japanese Dark Echoes (boost guardian not pre-loaded, speed tricks removed etc). Findings that were first documented by both communities on our respective forums.

We know that Retro watched us from a far and noted down our findings (confirmed to me by ex-retro employee Zoid when he told me that 'they' [Retro] "were watching us closely").

We know that the Ghetto jump (so prevailant in the last 2 games) was altered in MP3, thanks to the game attempting to disable the SJ when sliding up against the walls.

Bomb Jumps can no longer be strung together past a DBJ, a direct result of us exploiting the HBJ, suntower IBJ etc.

The Screw Attack exploit from MP2 was also completely removed. All of these, a DIRECT result of our findings.

I reckon the planets structure was part attempt to prevent severe SB's, but also perhaps they liked that structure from MPH? Only retro truly know the answer to that...

logitechSDAZ

Edit history:

logitechSDAZ: 2007-09-14 08:59:58 pm

2007-09-14 08:50:29 pm

Quote:

While I wouldn't put it as strongly as that, I would certainly say with complete confidence that we (the SCU/M2k2 communities) heavily influenced the design of the 2nd and, ultimately, the 3rd Prime game.

We both know that a lot of the findings in the US + PAL versions of MP2 were removed/'fixed' in the Japanese Dark Echoes (boost guardian not pre-loaded, speed tricks removed etc). Findings that were first documented by both communities on our respective forums.

We know that Retro watched us from a far and noted down our findings (confirmed to me by ex-retro employee Zoid when he told me that 'they' [Retro] "were watching us closely").

We know that the Ghetto jump (so prevailant in the last 2 games) was altered in MP3, thanks to the game attempting to disable the SJ when sliding up against the walls.

Bomb Jumps can no longer be strung together past a DBJ, a direct result of us exploiting the HBJ, suntower IBJ etc.

The Screw Attack exploit from MP2 was also completely removed. All of these, a DIRECT result of our findings.

I reckon the planets structure was part attempt to prevent severe SB's, but also perhaps they liked that structure from MPH? Only retro truly know the answer to that...

I agree that Retro was vigilant about keeping Prime 3 as sequence break-proof as possible, but some of their design choices to attempt to prevent sequence breaking still leaves me scratching my head.

1. Did Retro really believe that bsj would not be abused this time around like in MP1 and MP2? Did they really think that people wouldn't pull it off or find a use for it this time around? That is arrogant if true.

2. Yes, making the game consist of planets instead of connected paths does help with sequence breaking, but people are easily finding breaks anyway on each planet.

3. If Retro has such issues with bsj and ghetto jumping, then why not make them obselete? Was it too hard for them to program it in such a way?

Don't get me wrong. I really like Metroid Prime games and I think Retro Studios is a brilliant developer. But for developers who care so much about making MP1, MP2, MP3 be played the exact way it is intended to be played, they sure have failed badly in that respect.

Example: Would it have been so difficult for Retro to make the fuel gel in Hall of the Golems spill out on the entire by the door leading to the missle expansion in Burrows so that we couldn't exploit bsj as a speed trick instead of using the golem to freeze it? Make the fuel gel just push Samus back down off the platform after using bsj + SA to get there. Make one more fuel gel freezing platform close to the top so that Samus can get enough height to get on top of frozen gel on the highest platform after the Golem freezes it.

[quote]
While I wouldn't put it as strongly as that, I would certainly say with complete confidence that we (the SCU/M2k2 communities) heavily [i]influenced[/i] the design of the 2nd and, ultimately, the 3rd Prime game.

We both know that a lot of the findings in the US + PAL versions of MP2 were removed/'fixed' in the Japanese Dark Echoes (boost guardian not pre-loaded, speed tricks removed etc). Findings that were first documented by both communities on our respective forums.

We know that Retro watched us from a far and noted down our findings (confirmed to me by ex-retro employee Zoid when he told me that 'they' [Retro] "were watching us closely").

We know that the Ghetto jump (so prevailant in the last 2 games) was altered in MP3, thanks to the game attempting to disable the SJ when sliding up against the walls.

Bomb Jumps can no longer be strung together past a DBJ, a direct result of us exploiting the HBJ, suntower IBJ etc.

The Screw Attack exploit from MP2 was also completely removed. All of these, a DIRECT result of our findings.

I reckon the planets structure was part attempt to prevent severe SB's, but also perhaps they liked that structure from MPH? Only retro truly know the answer to that...[/quote]

I agree that Retro was vigilant about keeping Prime 3 as sequence break-proof as possible, but some of their design choices to attempt to prevent sequence breaking still leaves me scratching my head.

1.  Did Retro really believe that bsj would not be abused this time around like in MP1 and MP2?  Did they really think that people wouldn't pull it off or find a use for it this time around?  That is arrogant if true.

2.  Yes, making the game consist of planets instead of connected paths does help with sequence breaking, but people are easily finding breaks anyway on each planet.

3.  If Retro has such issues with bsj and ghetto jumping, then why not make them obselete?  Was it too hard for them to program it in such a way?

Don't get me wrong.  I really like Metroid Prime games and I think Retro Studios is a brilliant developer.  But for developers who care so much about making MP1, MP2, MP3 be played the exact way it is intended to be played, they sure have failed badly in that respect.

Example:  Would it have been so difficult for Retro to make the fuel gel in Hall of the Golems spill out on the entire by the door leading to the missle expansion in Burrows so that we couldn't exploit bsj as a speed trick instead of using the golem to freeze it?  Make the fuel gel just push Samus back down off the platform after using bsj + SA to get there.  Make one more fuel gel freezing platform close to the top so that Samus can get enough height to get on top of frozen gel on the highest platform after the Golem freezes it.

UchihaSasuke

2007-09-14 11:04:37 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

i'm just throwing a guess. to me it seems they have changed the games to stop most of the SBs from earlier games. the ship is no longer in a critical spot in mp2 and some key items have been moved up in collect order (space jump would still be a collectible in mp3 if they didn't mind SBs)

DeweyIsOverrated

Edit history:

DeweyIsOverrated: 2007-09-15 06:51:53 pm

2007-09-15 04:02:46 pm

Quote:

No, it makes the game much less breakable because the different areas aren't connected anymore. Some areas cannot be selected until you have cleared a previous area, and there is absolutely no chance that they will be accessed early because there's no other way to get to it.

It's still exactly the same. Think of it this way. In MP2, there was an (I think) amber-encoded door, that once past, gave you access to an elevator to a different area. In this game, the "amber-coded door" is essentially (for example) AU-217 giving you access to the bomb slot. Just because we haven't found a way to "get early access to calling a ship in x area" yet, that doesn't mean the game is less breakable. The game is, at the very least, just as breakable, in that respect. The areas are JUST AS CONNECTED as they were in the previous two. Don't be fooled just because there's a pretty map you get to click on in between. Getting a "landing point" to appear early is no different than getting an item or color-encoder early.

The difference is essentially this:

MP2:
If Samus.On(Elevator1.Area1) then goto Elevator1.Area2

MP3:
If Samus.On(ShipDock1.Area1) then goto (ShipDock1.Area2) OR (ShipDock1.Area3).

(That is no actual code, just look for the idea)

In both games, the game has to completely "erase" the previous area, and load the new one. This isn't the same as a door connecting two rooms. In all three games, you are being warped to a completely new location, that really isn't "connected" at all.

The things that DO make the game less breakable are other factors, such as Retro removing certain dashing, bombing, and jumping techniques. Also, the overall flow of the game is MUCH more linear (right?), giving you less overall choices of where to go.

[quote]No, it makes the game much less breakable because the different areas aren't connected anymore. Some areas cannot be selected until you have cleared a previous area, and there is absolutely no chance that they will be accessed early because there's no other way to get to it.[/quote]

It's still exactly the same.  Think of it this way.  In MP2, there was an (I think) amber-encoded door, that once past, gave you access to an elevator to a different area.  In this game, the "amber-coded door" is essentially (for example) AU-217 giving you access to the bomb slot.  Just because we haven't found a way to "get early access to calling a ship in x area" yet, that doesn't mean the game is less breakable.  The game is, at the very least, just as breakable, in that respect.  The areas are JUST AS CONNECTED as they were in the previous two.  Don't be fooled just because there's a pretty map you get to click on in between.  Getting a "landing point" to appear early is no different than getting an item or color-encoder early.

The difference is essentially this:

MP2:
If Samus.On(Elevator1.Area1) then goto Elevator1.Area2

MP3:
If Samus.On(ShipDock1.Area1) then goto (ShipDock1.Area2) OR (ShipDock1.Area3).

(That is no actual code, just look for the idea)

In both games, the game has to completely "erase" the previous area, and load the new one.  This isn't the same as a door connecting two rooms.  In all three games, you are being warped to a completely new location, that really isn't "connected" at all.

The things that DO make the game less breakable are other factors, such as Retro removing certain dashing, bombing, and jumping techniques.  Also, the overall flow of the game is MUCH more linear (right?), giving you less overall choices of where to go.

Tp_Fox

2007-09-15 06:56:13 pm

Q(O_o)Q

Paraxade

2007-09-15 08:18:48 pm

Quote:

It's still exactly the same. Think of it this way. In MP2, there was an (I think) amber-encoded door, that once past, gave you access to an elevator to a different area. In this game, the "amber-coded door" is essentially (for example) AU-217 giving you access to the bomb slot. Just because we haven't found a way to "get early access to calling a ship in x area" yet, that doesn't mean the game is less breakable. The game is, at the very least, just as breakable, in that respect. The areas are JUST AS CONNECTED as they were in the previous two. Don't be fooled just because there's a pretty map you get to click on in between. Getting a "landing point" to appear early is no different than getting an item or color-encoder early.

It's completely different. Let me put it this way: in Corruption, we will never be able to access Pirate Homeworld before destroying to Elysia seed because the first landing site there is not available until the seed is destroyed, while in previous Primes it would be an elevator that we might be able to access early. Having a ship landing site appear because you triggered a scripted event is not the same thing as scanning an elevator.

[quote]It's still exactly the same.  Think of it this way.  In MP2, there was an (I think) amber-encoded door, that once past, gave you access to an elevator to a different area.  In this game, the "amber-coded door" is essentially (for example) AU-217 giving you access to the bomb slot.  Just because we haven't found a way to "get early access to calling a ship in x area" yet, that doesn't mean the game is less breakable.  The game is, at the very least, just as breakable, in that respect.  The areas are JUST AS CONNECTED as they were in the previous two.  Don't be fooled just because there's a pretty map you get to click on in between.  Getting a "landing point" to appear early is no different than getting an item or color-encoder early.[/quote]

It's completely different. Let me put it this way: in Corruption, we will never be able to access Pirate Homeworld before destroying to Elysia seed because the first landing site there is not available until the seed is destroyed, while in previous Primes it would be an elevator that we might be able to access early. Having a ship landing site appear because you triggered a scripted event is not the same thing as scanning an elevator.

DeweyIsOverrated

Edit history:

DeweyIsOverrated: 2007-09-16 02:09:29 am

2007-09-16 02:07:48 am

So the trigger is different. Beat the second seed early, get Pirate early. Keep in mind there are always things you couldn't do BEFORE something else in mp1,2. You CANT get the plasma beam before space jump, but you can get space jump early, enabling you to get plasma earlier than you would have.

Lazylen

2007-09-16 02:54:02 am

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

except that we cant get into Elysia before we've finished Bryyo, because the item needed to get in is only acquired after you've completely finished the area. And after you've finished Bryyo, Elysia is pretty linear in itself, isn't it? :|

Paraxade

2007-09-16 04:23:39 am

Quote:

You CANT get the plasma beam before space jump

Yes, you can...

Lazylen

Edit history:

Lazylen: 2007-09-16 03:30:01 pm

2007-09-16 04:41:01 am

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

I'm doing a Hyper Mode low% game right now... got to the downed GF ship in bryyo early for kicks. anything I should check out?

Edit: Early Missile Expansion. No mention of it in the MP3 wiki.

on the Pirate Homeworld, first time through (before you get the spider ball) there is a morph ball tunnel that you have to use bombs in at certain points (to lower a walkway iirc). there is a missile expansion inside with spiderball tracks at the top to help you go in.

if you time your boost right, you can launch yourself over the slope and onto a ledge, and from there, ball jump your way to the missile expansion, saving some time in a 100% run from having to backtrack to that area with the spiderball.

the boost, however, is incredibly hard to preform, and I've only done it about 5 times of the 40 or so that I tried.

dunno if its been found yet, but in case it hasn't, I've finally laid my name to something, even if it is just a useless missile expansion. o_O

Pseudo Edit: You can possibly BSJ up and out of corrupted pool if you don't destroy the vines. if you approach from the left side and rolljump behind the leftmost vine, you can get a BSJ out of it.

I've only done it once, and messed up by morphing again. -_-

you can almost jump to the other side of the room from some stones sitting on the right of the pool.

I'm doing a Hyper Mode low% game right now... got to the downed GF ship in bryyo early for kicks.  anything I should check out?

Edit:  Early Missile Expansion.  No mention of it in the MP3 wiki.

on the Pirate Homeworld, first time through (before you get the spider ball) there is a morph ball tunnel that you have to use bombs in at certain points (to lower a walkway iirc).  there is a missile expansion inside with spiderball tracks at the top to help you go in.

if you time your boost right, you can launch yourself over the slope and onto a ledge, and from there, ball jump your way to the missile expansion, saving some time in a 100% run from having to backtrack to that area with the spiderball.

the boost, however, is incredibly hard to preform, and I've only done it about 5 times of the 40 or so that I tried.

dunno if its been found yet, but in case it hasn't, I've finally laid my name to something, even if it is just a useless missile expansion. o_O

Pseudo Edit:  You can possibly BSJ up and out of corrupted pool if you don't destroy the vines.  if you approach from the left side and rolljump behind the leftmost vine, you can get a BSJ out of it.

I've only done it once, and messed up by morphing again. -_-

you can almost jump to the other side of the room from some stones sitting on the right of the pool.

DeweyIsOverrated

2007-09-16 04:42:22 pm

Quote:

Yes, you can...

Well I'm actually not extremely familiar with the break routes of MP1, but my point about not being able to get certain items before other items remains valid. So I can just modify my statement to "You can't get plasma beam without either space jump OR bomb". Some items you'll always need to do certain things, but you can find shortcuts to get said items, etc. That's the entire basis of the runs on this site.

And to whoever said it above, we can get ONTO Elysia, so who knows if we find some way to get past that first barrier without the hyperball.

Lazylen

2007-09-16 06:44:24 pm

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

you can get past the barrier and right beside the statue, but you can't destroy the pods with hyper ball unless you're on the hands. :|

Paraxade

2007-09-16 07:01:59 pm

Quote:

Early Missile Expansion. No mention of it in the MP3 wiki.

Quote:

Pseudo Edit: You can possibly BSJ up and out of corrupted pool if you don't destroy the vines. if you approach from the left side and rolljump behind the leftmost vine, you can get a BSJ out of it.

You can easily BSJ out of the Phazon to get the height needed to make the ledge, but there's an invisible wall.

Bottles

2007-09-16 07:47:25 pm

Don't know if these tricks were found yet.

logitechSDAZ

Edit history:

logitechSDAZ: 2007-09-17 04:51:27 am

2007-09-17 04:48:03 am

Seriously, for everyone who wants to discuss speed tricks/sequence breaks, SDA is not the place to do it. This place had a lot of traffic for Twilight Princess, but most of Metroid Prime 3 discussions are here...

http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=30&sid=37a4a584c70926e64b8341cadc89947d

Go to that site, then go to "Speed Trick/Sequence Break supertopic" and get caught up on every find in the game so far. SDA for MP3 discussion is just too dead for the most part.

If I only relied on SDA, then I wouldn't know about most of the tricks that have already been found on Metroid2002 site.

Lazylen

2007-09-17 01:26:10 pm

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

i respect nate too much to make an alternate account and start invading his site.

sorry logitech. -_-

UchihaSasuke

2007-09-19 01:06:48 am

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

that's what you get when a site devoted to speed tricks for one specific series is maintained by the same group of guys who make SDA.

if it was "Zelda 1998" instead of m2k2, then the TP and OoT threads would have been dead very long ago.

at least here we can get people who don't know about m2k2 to find the site.

zell99

2007-09-19 01:32:23 am

Do'h! Homer'D!

Quote:

i respect nate too much to make an alternate account and start invading his site.

sorry logitech. -_-

I don't think Nate would mind you "invading" m2k2... I mean, why would he even run the site if he didn't want people to go there?

Paraxade

2007-09-19 03:03:57 am

zell, lazylen is banned from m2k2.

Lazylen

Edit history:

Lazylen: 2007-09-19 03:38:01 am

2007-09-19 03:37:24 am

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

Quote:

that's what you get when a site devoted to speed tricks for one specific series is maintained by the same group of guys who make SDA.

if it was "Zelda 1998" instead of m2k2, then the TP and OoT threads would have been dead very long ago.

at least here we can get people who don't know about m2k2 to find the site.

the MPH run is going on here, btw.

this site keeps metroid run research going because of its accessibility. why sign up for a specialized website when you can sign up for a website where you can discuss any games you want?

theres the whole community angle and such, but the way I see it, yes, the better runs will come out of there, but the random people that have this game will generate some stuff here as well.

NK3233

2007-09-19 07:32:58 pm

It's-a me, Stalin!

There's no other topic other than this to post this in whilst being relevant, so here it is:

TSA

2007-09-19 10:21:36 pm

Retired

http://www.zentendo.com/features.php?articleId=107&page=1

Normal: 4:46
Percent: 46%
Playthrough: Second

Notes:
1) This was not a speedrun. I forget what do to in a few spots and/or my capture source video was so dark in some spots I had to adjust.
2) There are a few "dissolves" - a "pause" occurred and I just removed the pause video time and merged the footage before the pause and after into a dissolve/cross-cut
3) I stop to show off some story element stuff - like on the G.F.S. Valhalla, I get the PDA code and watch the last transmission fro the AU unit. I also do not speed through text dialogue or try to skip cutscenes (except a few gunship ones).

Again, I was not attempting a speedrun, so I was niether playing for speed nor trying to utilize any advance tactics or skills.

The "low quality" Stage 6 files for segments 13, 14-17 aren't up yet, and the last two segments are uploading now.

LinkYyay

2007-09-21 08:30:53 pm

MezzoDragoon

2007-09-21 10:12:29 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

That is very cute and very funny.