MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries - February 22, 2014

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2014-02-22 07:10:07 pm

2014-02-02 02:12:18 pm

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries (Any %) (Single Segment)

Decision: Accept

Reason: It's an improvement over the current run even if the polish isn't quite as high as it should be.

Congratulations to 'Mewyabe'!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2014-02-02 02:12:19 pm

Run Information

MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries (Any %) (Single Segment)

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/mw4mercs/

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting. Verifications are due by Feb. 16, 2014.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

After 2 weeks I will read all of the verifications and move this thread to the main verification board and post my verdict.

ktwo

2014-02-06 12:57:42 pm

Never played this game. It's a fun watch, but it's not an easy game to review without prior knowledge. I found the following three threads useful to get a better understanding of what was going on:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/mechwarrior_4_mercenaries__october_30th_2008.html
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/redoing_mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_target_sub_40_min._17.html
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_original__mektek_patch_3.1.html

A/V: Looked good to me. (I don't know too much about pc capture though)
Legit: Didn't see any signs of cheating. From reading the threads above, it seems like there are cheats that are not so obvious to detect. I'm in no way saying anything non-legit was used, just that it's probably nothing I could have spotted if there were. My understanding is that this was played on a special freeware version. Previous conversation in the forum seems to conclude that it's a legit release. The run comments link to some notes about the patch used. I don't know anything about if that's the right patch, so I'm not gonna comment on it, but assume it is.

Gameplay: There is a segmented run on the site that is ~10 min longer than this submission. I haven't watched it, but my understanding is that they are in comparable categories (both played on recruit difficulty and the game versions shouldn't be enough to make up different categories). The big difference is that it was "discovered" after the current run was made that it's doable to skip some of the missions whose only purpose was to raise money/experience. The estimated segmented time using the new route was 40 min. This single segment run is 58-59 min (don't know how to time it exactly). Even though it's a fairly big difference between the two, considering the type of game ("open world war game"), I'm not immediately shocked by it.
As for the run itself, I was a bit confused about the menu work (didn't look very decisive), but one of the threads above describe that a lot of strategy can go into it and save time during the levels. Without contradicting information, I'll assume that decisions have to be done on the spot and that some hesitations in the menu aren't necessarily a sign of sloppiness. The execution didn't look perfect either, but it looks like a tricky game to get all the shots to connect in. The difficulty of the run doesn't really shine through for a casual viewer like myself, so that might also play in on how the final product looks. Overall, it gets the job done and I couldn't see any major mistakes or anything that went against the speedrun mentality. Hopefully, someone who has played the game will come and expand on these points a bit more. Until then, I will recommend an

ACCEPT

Never played this game. It's a fun watch, but it's not an easy game to review without prior knowledge. I found the following three threads useful to get a better understanding of what was going on:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/mechwarrior_4_mercenaries__october_30th_2008.html
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/redoing_mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_target_sub_40_min._17.html
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_original__mektek_patch_3.1.html

A/V: Looked good to me. (I don't know too much about pc capture though)
Legit: Didn't see any signs of cheating. From reading the threads above, it seems like there are cheats that are not so obvious to detect. I'm in no way saying anything non-legit was used, just that it's probably nothing I could have spotted if there were. My understanding is that this was played on a special freeware version. Previous conversation in the forum seems to conclude that it's a legit release. The run comments link to some notes about the patch used. I don't know anything about if that's the right patch, so I'm not gonna comment on it, but assume it is.

Gameplay: There is a segmented run on the site that is ~10 min longer than this submission. I haven't watched it, but my understanding is that they are in comparable categories (both played on recruit difficulty and the game versions shouldn't be enough to make up different categories). The big difference is that it was "discovered" after the current run was made that it's doable to skip some of the missions whose only purpose was to raise money/experience. The estimated segmented time using the new route was 40 min. This single segment run is 58-59 min (don't know how to time it exactly). Even though it's a fairly big difference between the two, considering the type of game ("open world war game"), I'm not immediately shocked by it. 
As for the run itself, I was a bit confused about the menu work (didn't look very decisive), but one of the threads above describe that a lot of strategy can go into it and save time during the levels. Without contradicting information, I'll assume that decisions have to be done on the spot and that some hesitations in the menu aren't necessarily a sign of sloppiness. The execution didn't look perfect either, but it looks like a tricky game to get all the shots to connect in. The difficulty of the run doesn't really shine through for a casual viewer like myself, so that might also play in on how the final product looks. Overall, it gets the job done and I couldn't see any major mistakes or anything that went against the speedrun mentality. Hopefully, someone who has played the game will come and expand on these points a bit more. Until then, I will recommend an

ACCEPT

garik16

2014-02-07 09:23:27 pm

Having played this game a long time ago and watching this vid with a friend who has played it more recently, I'm not so sure this really should be an accept.

First off: even if we do accept, this should probably be a different category than the existing run. This is played with MekTek patches and additions to the game, which may or may not be really considered official. MekTek HAS the license, but the additions really aren't part of this game originally and were added way later when MekTek got the license. I don't think the old run used such a version of the game (the linked PPC he's using for most of the run is a new weapon, as are a few of the mechs).

Second: the execution isn't great.

For reference, to kill a mech in this game, you need to do one of two things:
1. Destroy both legs of a mech
2. Destroy the Center Torso of a mech.
(In theory you can also destroy the head of a mech, but mech heads have INSANELY small hitboxes and cannot be hit consistently in real time. It's just not possible. A head shot that doesn't kill is totally wasted damage).

The latter is the method of choice (legs have silly-high armor) and is the method chosen here. And well, he's seemingly not very good at it. Too many times he misses finishing blows on a mech's center torso, even when in close and at slow speed. In the second mission, he actually loses his autocannon, which formed the bulk of his damage, on the last mech, wasting even more time. I understand missing a bunch while moving at decent speed at range, but seriously? He's up close with a bushwhacker in the second to last mission to start the mission and and he takes 34 seconds to kill the damn thing, missing its center torso entirely for the first 15 seconds (in fact, a lancemate actually kills it).

I also question his weapon selection and strategy at times. The PPCs are fine for sniping the overlord (although there surely must be a faster way of killing that thing - that was the safe strat i used when I played the game casually) but cause him to overheat constantly. Surely autocannons would be more efficient and faster as a result? (Alternatively Gauss rifles?)

This is ignoring the sloppiness in buying and equipping things for his lancemates, which should not be that variable between runs.

I just can't Accept this with the sloppy execution, considering the time improvement is seemingly entirely due to a routing change. I know it's single segment but this is REALLY sloppy and I feel like the runner should re-attempt it to improve upon it. There are minutes to gain here, not seconds.

Having played this game a long time ago and watching this vid with a friend who has played it more recently, I'm not so sure this really should be an accept.

First off: even if we do accept, this should probably be a different category than the existing run.  This is played with MekTek patches and additions to the game, which may or may not be really considered official.  MekTek HAS the license, but the additions really aren't part of this game originally and were added way later when MekTek got the license.  I don't think the old run used such a version of the game (the linked PPC he's using for most of the run is a new weapon, as are a few of the mechs).

Second: the execution isn't great.

For reference, to kill a mech in this game, you need to do one of two things:
1.  Destroy both legs of a mech 
2.  Destroy the Center Torso of a mech.  
(In theory you can also destroy the head of a mech, but mech heads have INSANELY small hitboxes and cannot be hit consistently in real time.  It's just not possible.  A head shot that doesn't kill is totally wasted damage).

The latter is the method of choice (legs have silly-high armor) and is the method chosen here.  And well, he's seemingly not very good at it.  Too many times he misses finishing blows on a mech's center torso, even when in close and at slow speed.  In the second mission, he actually loses his autocannon, which formed the bulk of his damage, on the last mech, wasting even more time.   I understand missing a bunch while moving at decent speed at range, but seriously?  He's up close with a bushwhacker in the second to last mission to start the mission and  and he takes 34 seconds to kill the damn thing, missing its center torso entirely for the first 15 seconds (in fact, a lancemate actually kills it).

I also question his weapon selection and strategy at times.  The PPCs are fine for sniping the overlord (although there surely must be a faster way of killing that thing - that was the safe strat i used when I played the game casually) but cause him to overheat constantly.  Surely autocannons would be more efficient and faster as a result?  (Alternatively Gauss rifles?)

This is ignoring the sloppiness in buying and equipping things for his lancemates, which should not be that variable between runs.

I just can't Accept this with the sloppy execution, considering the time improvement is seemingly entirely due to a routing change.  I know it's single segment but this is REALLY sloppy and I feel like the runner should re-attempt it to improve upon it.  There are minutes to gain here, not seconds.

Mewyabe

(user is banned)

2014-02-14 02:47:10 am

Mods remove if I'm not allowed to have this here. I apologize for not uploading more detailed commentary. I figured people'd read the verification from Pendrokar's WR run on the site or watch the previous run before this one.

really.txt:
My apologies for not the differences in my run... It's an aggressive route change.

How aggressive? I am down 200 tons of mechs on the second mission.

I also did my run single segment so all the outfitting was done live.

I welcome attempts to beat my run. Especially if you do the same Davion ending. The pure amount of deaths you will have due to AI nailing 400 to 600 meter AC5's, AC2's, and PPC's while doing: "Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!" isn't easy. Especially when you're in smaller mechs.

My run took this from 11 missions/segments down to 7 missions in 1 RTA.

Only the 7 same missions are compared since I didn't do 4 of his missions.
Mech comparison
Mine listed first
Pilots listed first
Chassis, class, affiliation

Styk - Reinforcement: 240 tons
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C

Talon/Wernke - Moonlight: 370 tons
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Bushwacker medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Country Life: 505 tons
Awesome assault IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Bushwacker medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Mech Works Defense: 635 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Masakari assault C
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Bushwacker medium IS

Tharkad - Overlord: 735 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C

Tharkad - Resupply: 335 tons
Awesome assault IS
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C

Tharkad - Checkmate: 335 tons
Catapult heavy IS
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Daishi assault C
________________________________________________________________________________
His mechs:
Styk - Reinforcement: 295 tons
Awesome assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS

Talon/Wernke - Moonlight: 570 tons
Awesome assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS
Uziel medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Country Life: 610 tons
Awesome assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Mech Works Defense: 659 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS

Tharkad - Overlord: 719 tons
Mad Cat Mark II assault IS
Atlas assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Catapult heavy IS

Tharkad - Resupply: 390 tons
Mad Cat Mark II assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS

Tharkad - Checkmate: 325 tons
Cougar light C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS

Mods remove if I'm not allowed to have this here. I apologize for not uploading more detailed commentary. I figured people'd read the verification from Pendrokar's WR run on the site or watch the previous run before this one.

really.txt:
My apologies for not the differences in my run... It's an aggressive route change.

How aggressive? I am down 200 tons of mechs on the second mission.

I also did my run single segment so all the outfitting was done live.

I welcome attempts to beat my run. Especially if you do the same Davion ending. The pure amount of deaths you will have due to AI nailing 400 to 600 meter AC5's, AC2's, and PPC's while doing: "Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!" isn't easy. Especially when you're in smaller mechs.

My run took this from 11 missions/segments down to 7 missions in 1 RTA.

Only the 7 same missions are compared since I didn't do 4 of his missions.
Mech comparison
Mine listed first
Pilots listed first
Chassis, class, affiliation

Styk - Reinforcement: 240 tons
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C

Talon/Wernke - Moonlight: 370 tons
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Bushwacker medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Country Life: 505 tons
Awesome assault IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Ryoken medium C
Bushwacker medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Mech Works Defense: 635 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Masakari assault C
Thanatos heavy IS
Thanatos heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Bushwacker medium IS

Tharkad - Overlord: 735 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C

Tharkad - Resupply: 335 tons
Awesome assault IS
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C

Tharkad - Checkmate: 335 tons
Catapult heavy IS
Masakari assault C
Masakari assault C
Daishi assault C
________________________________________________________________________________
His mechs:
Styk - Reinforcement: 295 tons
Awesome assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS

Talon/Wernke - Moonlight: 570 tons
Awesome assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS
Uziel medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Country Life: 610 tons
Awesome assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS

Talon/Wernke - Mech Works Defense: 659 tons
Awesome assault IS
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Black Knight heavy IS
Catapult heavy IS
Uziel medium IS

Tharkad - Overlord: 719 tons
Mad Cat Mark II assault IS
Atlas assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS
Sunder assault IS
Longbow assault IS
Catapult heavy IS

Tharkad - Resupply: 390 tons
Mad Cat Mark II assault IS
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS

Tharkad - Checkmate: 325 tons
Cougar light C
Daishi assault C
Daishi assault C
Sunder assault IS

garik16

2014-02-14 08:06:29 pm

Again it's clear your strats massively improved the time. No one can deny that. But this goes beyond posting a beatable run: You have some very sloppy execution at times - that bushwhacker kill is particularly notable as being bad but it's not an uncommon theme of the run

Mewyabe

(user is banned)

2014-02-15 12:46:53 am

I understand, but the amount of skill and RNG for a sub 1 hour run needed to beat my time merits it being placed up (right next to?) Pendrokar's run as well.

I wonder if Pendrokar will choose to verify.

UraniumAnchor

2014-02-17 03:35:57 am

Not a walrus

This one's going to need some more discussion, especially on a decision this contentious.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2014-02-18 09:53:05 am

2014-02-18 09:52:34 am

A/V good, no cheating detected

First off I should mention that I have absolutely no experience with this game, and I'm not sure I'll have the time to check it out anytime soon. I also have no real frame of reference for which weapons do what well or poorly except for those used in the run, or which ones could be replaced by what for that matter, but the constant overheating definitely makes me question using the PPC's so much. In the mission with the Overlord I definitely think the runner could have done a bit more damage on the way to the safe spot, but there were only a couple stretches that were completely devoid of combat. Perhaps the runner could have done a bit more long range sniping on the final boss while still remaining mostly behind the wall, as well (though I realize the runner was nearly dead and down a weapon, it could have sped things up a little).

As for execution I can definitely see garik's point. That said, in many cases I could easily attribute the lack of precision to unpredictable AI movement and the need to dodge more in order to remain alive as much as anything else. If those truly are the main reasons for the run's subpar combat (note: obviously not all of it was bad) it would actually fall partly under RNG, but it's still something I think the runner could have dealt with a bit better (and likely has in other runs). The Bushwhacker thing was definitely a fiasco, but there were only a couple other instances that really even compare to it. And I hesitate to make too big a deal about losing weapons near the end of missions because at that point a certain level of aggression is to be desired anyway.

So as I see it no one factor is enough to warrant a reject, but there are enough to make it close at the very least. Games like this aren't trivial to optimize, especially in an RTA/single segment run, so I'll go ahead and give this one a weak accept.

A/V good, no cheating detected

First off I should mention that I have absolutely no experience with this game, and I'm not sure I'll have the time to check it out anytime soon.  I also have no real frame of reference for which weapons do what well or poorly except for those used in the run, or which ones could be replaced by what for that matter, but the constant overheating definitely makes me question using the PPC's so much.  In the mission with the Overlord I definitely think the runner could have done a bit more damage on the way to the safe spot, but there were only a couple stretches that were completely devoid of combat.  Perhaps the runner could have done a bit more long range sniping on the final boss while still remaining mostly behind the wall, as well (though I realize the runner was nearly dead and down a weapon, it could have sped things up a little).

As for execution I can definitely see garik's point.  That said, in many cases I could easily attribute the lack of precision to unpredictable AI movement and the need to dodge more in order to remain alive as much as anything else.  If those truly are the main reasons for the run's subpar combat (note: obviously not all of it was bad) it would actually fall partly under RNG, but it's still something I think the runner could have dealt with a bit better (and likely has in other runs).  The Bushwhacker thing was definitely a fiasco, but there were only a couple other instances that really even compare to it.  And I hesitate to make too big a deal about losing weapons near the end of missions because at that point a certain level of aggression is to be desired anyway.

So as I see it no one factor is enough to warrant a reject, but there are enough to make it close at the very least.  Games like this aren't trivial to optimize, especially in an RTA/single segment run, so I'll go ahead and give this one a weak accept.

SDAVerification

2014-02-22 07:10:10 pm

Decision posted.

Pendrokar

2014-02-26 02:04:58 pm

Well done Mewyabe, I really was disappointed with myself on the polish I did on the last segmented run(because I knew 7 mission run was possible) compared to what I did on the Mechwarrior 3 run. Had a few segments ready, but lost interest. This run doesn't seem sloppy to me for a single segment run, it should replace my current segmented run record.

Quote:

I wonder if Pendrokar will choose to verify.

I believe I registered to verify, didn't get a private message, nor an email.

UraniumAnchor

2014-02-26 03:13:25 pm

Not a walrus

If you sign up for a run that ends up in public verification you don't currently get notified when it goes out, but since this is not the first time this has happened I'll probably look into fixing that soon.

Crow!

2014-02-27 10:57:36 am

What's that gemma?

Seconding the notion of sending notifications to the would-be verifiers that a run has gone to public verification. In a sense, when a run goes public, everyone who applied to be a verifier has been accepted.