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3:18:12 - Ah, I was confused about this putt initially, but then I realized you're just trying to get the boy to start the next course, which is obviously very smart here and elsewhere. Maybe that came up in the doubles run.

4:24:14 - Here, what's the main reason you chose to mulligan this course after Ella's first shot? The wind was too skewed? Nice chip-in afterwards!
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Yep we try to do that as much as possible. Usually only happens on Par 5's because we got a lot more strokes to work with. But its definitely I have to stay on my toes for

That is actually a very interesting topic. So just a reminder, I have to at least birdie every single hole to obtain the birdie badge. On Hole 7, I finished the hole. This made hole 8 a hole where Ella tees off. There is a very big issue with this. In MOST cases, Ella just decides to hit a terrible shot that doesnt reach the green. Which means Im going to have to chip in for birdie. In this case, the lie wasnt terrible and I probably had a good chance at making it. HOWEVER, lets say I dont make it. Well, there lies the problem. Because once I hit my shot, there is no way for me to pause the game until Ella makes her shot. Had I allowed that to happen, I would have had to finish the course, then play the course up until Hole 8, then birdie it.

So me saving and quitting then reentering the course was for safety. That way if it happened again, I wouldnt be at risk of losing a crap ton of time by having to play the course again. Also had I missed the birdie after saving my game, then I could just reset and play the hole again
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
By the way, I will like to preface that you will see a really bizarre strat in Links Doubles and Mushroom Doubles, which I will explain once you get to that point
All this complexity that's not visible to the naked eye makes for excellent commentary fodder btw. I try to highlight that in the updates whenever I'm able to, but whether I'm able to is usually a function of what the run commentary was like.

4:35:00 - Here we have the most tricky situation you've ended up in so far. So in order to avoid being so on the mercy of RNG in Links 6, you'd have had to get an eagle on course 5, which was so narrowly missed by Ella. I can see the margins are tight. Do you think it would have paid off to take a little more time with each attempt at making the birdie on course #6 or is the roughness of the terrain enough to force the error on your part? Or even redo course #5 to get the eagle there?

4:36:24 - Here there's even a few resets BEFORE Ella even takes the shot. Because you knew it was gonna land behind the tree or something?

4:38:46 - So here you've just completed course #8... and you're back doing the same course all over! This was what you meant by that bizarre strat? And you're doing something unusual in the menus too. And then you forfeit that course... Yeah, I'm lost haha XD

4:40:50 - Aaannd more resets here. I was thinking it's to manipulate the wind but I'm not sure Shocked After this course, you pause in the celebration screen for a moment. Does that mean anything?

I'll wait for the explanations here before I watch the last cup.
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Links 5 and 6 is probably one of the biggest roadblocks for links doubles, and tbh, there is not much you can do about it. Ive tried getting the Eagle on 5 and it just does not happen. The one you saw was probably the best ever chance I got to getting it. It requires perfect wind with not too much, but not too little. There is one strat I could consider doing which I probably plan on implementing to make it take longer, but almost guarantee I got holes 5 and 6 first try. At the time though, it hadnt crossed my mind at to perform said route . Ill get into it later because Im sure it will pop up later as im typing this and replying to each section

Me resetting there was just trying to see if I could get a better wind. And with Ella taking the shot, its better for me to reset than to wait out her first shot, then save and quit. With where she was aiming with the wind, I was 99% certain she would have hit the ball in the heath. the only way I even taking a shot out of the heath is if Im really close to the hole, or the wind was barely anything. I had very little possibility making any shot out of heath otherwise.

Okay yeah, this is where shit goes crazy and Ill have to explain this. This will take a bit. So a reminder that in Doubles, it was found out that Ella (or whoever your partner is) becomes better when your score is naturally lower than it should be. So knowing this, another runner of MGAT Yoshi86UP found a way to use this to his advantage for 100%. The way this strat even works is because Birdie Badges are saved in a completely different manner from saving a tournament all together. So because we want this better partner RNG, and we want to skip the hole, we save the game before playing hole 8. Once we save, we go ahead and play hole 8 and get at least a birdie. Now to note, the birdie badge DOES not go away when you reset the game. So by entering hole 9, we essentially save the birdie badge. We then reset the game, and we give up on hole 8. This allows to have a worser score to get better partner RNG, and we also keep the birdie badge. This strat is also used in the next tournament as well. I know you will ask this so I will mention it now. There is no viable reason to do this for the 3 courses before hand. I had a pretty easy time with them, so there really is no point in doing this strat. Links and Mushroom are just that much harder that we do the strat in those 2 courses alone. Also keep in mind that we still have to place 1st in every single tournament, so you couldnt just continuously do the strat over and over.

Another big explanation for Holes 12-15. Hole 15 is a terrible hole. Well, at least for your partner. It is one of those holes where basically 99% of the time, your partner will never reach the green on the first shot, and its a par 3, also there is a crap ton of elevation, meaning a chip aint any easier. So we use hole 12 as a catalyst to set things up so I can take the tee shot on hole 15. By me teeing off 12, I go ahead and birdie, then we also birdie 13. We could eagle 13, but this is all intentional. Now 14 is interesting because while you may think I should tee first here, you would be wrong. This is a really long par 4, and I cant make it to the green in one shot. So this is why Ella tees of 14. By teeing off 14, I can set her up with a birdie putt on 14. She finishes off 14, I tee off 15. Thats all there is to it, completely planned out.
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Also I will mention this the strat on Links 8 will be used again on Hole 4 in the last course, so keep that in mind.

Also the strats between Links 12-15 will also be used between mushroom 13-16
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2023-11-16 02:19:20 pm
I can tell this stuff is really thought-out!

That's a pretty advanced strategy indeed with intentionally playing poorly. The Typing of the Dead has a similar thing where the game gets easier if you're failing at it.

Okay, I don't have any specific questions about the final tourney. Even after reading what you said about the partner RNG, I can't quite wrap my head around it. But yeah, there's plenty of evidence this stuff is well-thought-out. The 100% completion criteria I also have a hard time commenting on (the menus you first show flash by unintelligibly to me) so luckily there's the verification that the run has already passed. And no, I don't think you're likely to have missed anything Tongue The 100% run looks to be roughly the 25th longest compared to runs currently up on this site:

So with that, I think I can now give my verdicts for all the three runs that had sufficiently good A/V. The low%, 100% and All Tourneys runs all get an

Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Thats Awesome! Btw, the name of "tournament mode" is not the category name. Its actually called "All Tourneys"

Also, did you have a verdict on Doubles?
Ah, and to be clear, Doubles had A/V fuzziness that we can't really do anything with. So that's a reject, I'm afraid, but do submit your next record later after adjusting the overlay. Wonder why that one got so compressed? Looks like compression to me.

I changed the category name as you suggested!
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Looking at the record now, I think I know why. I obtained that record during the weird time where I had a capture card, but the only thing I had to use as a computer was a really bad chromebook. I learned that you can actually record using the capture card and chromebook, so thats what I did. Maybe Ill try beating it soon so all 5 records can be on the site.
Good look with that and even if it takes a few months, it'll take that long to get these runs up anyhow.
Decision posted.
may use a few too many Kappas
Question for transparency: was it made clear during this process that these runs were all performed on a version of the RetroArch emulator for the Wii U? As in, emulating the GBA version of the game on the Wii U? The MG:AT community has been aware of this fact for a while, but I had personally been out of the loop with the community until this past year.
Quote from carterferris07:
This was done on a Wii U, however the way I played the game was using Retroarch on my Wii U. The only reason this was used was so I could play the game in Japanese. It saves about 30-40 seconds overall over the USA version. Its essentially a GBA emulator played on a Wii U

Looks like carter did bring that up with the previous verification. I even made a note about it myself in my 2023-04-20 message, though I seem to have missed the part about it being done on an unofficial emulator. Used to seeing newer consoles being used sometimes to play older games but those are generally "officially sanctioned". I don't know too too much about any of this so I'm not used to paying close attention to it. Here's a quote from our rules page:

Emulators and Virtualization: We will generally not accept speedruns recorded on unofficial emulators (ZSNES, VBA, etc.). Emulators commonly allow for recording games frame-by-frame and then playing back the input at normal speed. Emulators also give the player access by default to features not present on the original consoles, such as RAM-watch or the possibility to use, for example, keyboard as input device. Finally, many emulators have minor inaccuracies in timing and slowdown that inhibit accurate comparisons between runs. Note that an exception is made for officially sanctioned emulators such as the Game Boy Player, the Virtual Console, and the GameTap. Due to problems with many official emulators, we will place them in separate categories if the known differences make comparison with runs made on other platforms difficult.

Seems Retroarch hasn't been officially approved in any sense? It's not bundled with the WiiU or anything?
may use a few too many Kappas
No. The Wii U has an official Virtual Console emulator for GBA games. This game does have an official release on it. That said, you have to homebrew your Wii U to install Retroarch onto it.
Ok, let's wait for the runner to confirm we've understood him right then. :/
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
Short anwser, yes. This does involve using a homebrew wii U that allows me to run retroarch cores. Im using the mGBA core and its most updated version that I know of.

Long answer. The modified Wii U that I use runs the mGBA core which runs  at the exact frame rate used if playing on a regular GBA console/system, or Wii U VC. The only reason for this usage is due to the fact that it is very hard to obtain a JP Wii U nowadays and even if I did, I would most likely have to hack in a version of GBA Tour to that said JP Wii U in order for me to have access to the Wii U VC version of GBA Tour. I would say this process is much MUCH harder than getting a 3DS capture card, and hell, probably costs a lot more money in that regards. Obviously, I had no intentions of misleading you or anyone. The only reason I use this sort of modification was strictly for use of the JP version on the Wii U. and I stick with the Wii U because I like the feel of the Wii U Pro Controller, which I have also been using since I started speedrunning back in July 2020. I have been using this sort of tech for 3 years of speedrunning. I also do not use save states in my runs and even if I did, I have no editing skills that would make think I would want to otherwise. There was no RNG manipulation involved by using an emulator because that has never been discovered. I have been told by others in the MGAT sphere and by runners who have played on emulator that mGBA and VBA run exactly like it should if compared to playing the game on a GBA or GBP.
To be clear, there's no accusations of trying to hide anything here. More like it took CardsOfTheHeart to show up to point this thing out even though you mentioned it before yourself. As I mentioned, it's somewhat commonplace for runners to use one console to play a game for an older console, but that's usually through official emulators so I/we aren't used to paying attention to that. We'll talk about this internally taking into account the things you've told us carter.

Meanwhile, CardsOfTheHeart, do you have knowledge of how this method of emulation works? Can you confirm what carter said about "mGBA and VBA run exactly like it should if compared to playing the game on a GBA or GBP"? Or carter, could you link to any discussion that was had about this on or elsewhere?
may use a few too many Kappas
I don't have a lot of experience with RetroArch and never had a Wii U to experience if it works exactly the same as on PC, but considering RetroArch is designed to be cross-platform, I don't expect it to be any different. RetroArch is not technically an emulator. It's a front-end that uses unofficial emulators as plugins (called cores) within its framework. mGBA is one of the better emulators by itself, but I couldn't tell you how it functions differently as a core.

The only issues I have had with GBA emulation are some timing problems if the GBA BIOS is skipped. One game I happen to moderate, Yu-Gi-Oh! The Sacred Cards, actually enforces showing the BIOS at the start of each run because lag frames are not simulated correctly without the BIOS, even in mGBA. I have never tried to see if that has an impact on this game.
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
I will mention this. I do believe that the Wii U runs these cores and its ROM's a LOT better on console than emulation does on a PC. I have not experienced any issues in terms of timing being weird, or glitches happening due to emulation on the Wii U. I personally am under the viewpoint that while yes its more unofficial than playing it on different hardware, I don't think side by side with official hardware there would be much of any difference if any at all
carter: Do you know anything about the GBA BIOS skipping issue Cards brought up? Do you or don't you skip the BIOS, (whatever that means)?
may use a few too many Kappas
For what it's worth, I have found this page that supposedly links multiple GBA test results and suggests that mGBA fails multiple accuracy tests, including timings.
Mario Golf Advance Tour Enthusiast
I do not, and from what it sounds like, Im in the same boat as you not knowing or understanding the GBA BIOS is or what it does
Quote from CardsOfTheHeart:
For what it's worth, I have found this page that supposedly links multiple GBA test results and suggests that mGBA fails multiple accuracy tests, including timings.

Right, so unless someone can prove it otherwise, I guess that means it's nowhere near accurate enough then. The mGBA results (according to the page's edit history) were added in just a few months ago, so they're probably still valid.

This kind of confusion highlights why emulators are so anathema on SDA: forget all about the possibility of cheating, just determining whether or not there's advantages or disadvantages to using a specific emulator normally can be so difficult. Even the threads elsewhere that I saw were full of conflicting opinions on Retroarch (even though it's not technically an emulator). Some communities have blanket banned it, some say it's super-accurate with lag etc... it's a big mess and things keep changing as well. We do recognize that there are big barriers for entry when it comes to authentic retro console gaming, so we are on the look-out for possible solutions as they crop up. So far the latest development with that was the new rule that permits using clone consoles from the maker called Analogue.

So, carter, this honestly should have been addressed back when you submitted the Singles run. It slipped past us causing more work for both of us. The silver lining is if you ever submit more runs for this game, at least you won't have to do as much explaining as I at least will be much better keyed into what's happening. Also allows you to fix the A/V problems highlighted. I don't know if you're motivated to change the game language just for an SDA submission (if that would help with getting non-emulated runs done), but in case you didn't realize this, SDA has always tracked language versions separately anyhow, and our audience definitely doesn't care if you're a little bit slower because of the English language. Mainly up to how important you feel the leaderboard positions are for you I guess. If you have any other questions or suggestions, let's make sure we get it 100% sorted out before any further submissions.

So the verdict here has to change to "reject" for all the runs and we'll have to remove the already-published run too, unfortunately. Sorry to have to say that!