Mario and Luigi: Dream Team (Bros.)

DhrGR

Edit history:

DhrGR: 2013-10-01 03:45:37 am

2013-09-17 03:34:07 am

Quote from Pedalpowerluigi:

Some guys friend said it was 155. I dont know about that, but im sure that extra 5 POW is useless even it it happens to exist.

Is the route hidden somewhere or in DhrGRs head?

My current route is outdated and needs some serious updating with the new skip anyway, ewaller has done a lot more in-depth routing recently since i have been very busy, but if you really wanna know where to find my stuff, i updated the PMRTA wiki (http://papermariorta.wikia.com/wiki/Mario_%26_Luigi:_Dream_Team) and i will try to keep that as up-to-date as possible, the route is edit-able by anyone and is in a google doc, but i won't have time to update it for some time, and i never made a route before so it is actually really bad, also this was made before any info on the game was out there, so i did not have that much to work with, part of the reason my PB is 13~ hours, while i think sub 10, maybe sub 9 might be possible now

Edit: Chibi made a route and it is on the RTA wiki above, it is a lot more in-depth then mine and worth checking out.
Also I did another run of this and got sub 12, could have been 11:30~ if the gyro did not stopped working on the giant bowser fight and kill me >_> i ran into a lot of enemy's, and there seems to be a lot more potential for glitches to be found, i am assuming this game might actually go under 10~9 hours at this rate, but we need some more skips to make that happen, i'd say aim for a sub 11 for now and i will consider calling it a "good run", Good luck all of you~

[quote="Pedalpowerluigi"]Some guys friend said it was 155. I dont know about that, but im sure that extra 5 POW is useless even it it happens to exist.

Is the route hidden somewhere or in DhrGRs head?[/quote]

My current route is outdated and needs some serious updating with the new skip anyway, ewaller has done a lot more in-depth routing recently since i have been very busy, but if you really wanna know where to find my stuff, i updated the PMRTA wiki ([url]http://papermariorta.wikia.com/wiki/Mario_%26_Luigi:_Dream_Team[/url]) and i will try to keep that as up-to-date as possible, the route is edit-able by anyone and is in a google doc, but i won't have time to update it for some time, and i never made a route before so it is actually really bad, also this was made before any info on the game was out there, so i did not have that much to work with, part of the reason my PB is 13~ hours, while i think sub 10, maybe sub 9 might be possible now

Edit: Chibi made a route and it is on the RTA wiki above, it is a lot more in-depth then mine and worth checking out.
Also I did another run of this and got sub 12, could have been 11:30~ if the gyro did not stopped working on the giant bowser fight and kill me >_> i ran into a lot of enemy's, and there seems to be a lot more potential for glitches to be found, i am assuming this game might actually go under 10~9 hours at this rate, but we need some more skips to make that happen, i'd say aim for a sub 11 for now and i will consider calling it a "good run", Good luck all of you~

Pedalpowerluigi

2013-12-23 03:54:25 pm

Another Sequence break found by TheMasterHojo

Skips green shell, feathers and sewers!

Anwonu

2013-12-23 04:28:24 pm

CHOKES

Nice. Any sequence break makes me a happier man =p
I probably still won't run it for a while, but good to know the possible time gets lower and lower.

insanity_wolf33

2014-02-16 04:25:20 am

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum. I just finished a test run WITH Early Grobot (final time: 11:56) and found some things about it:

1. No bros attacks until Ultibed gathering
2. You MUST get the entire attack in order to activate bros attacks (worth it anyway)
3. Harder to beat Mammoshka

I hope to improve soon; maybe even go for ~11:30 or less.

insanity_wolf33

2014-03-08 01:58:44 am

Quote from insanity_wolf33:

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum. I just finished a test run WITH Early Grobot (final time: 11:56) and found some things about it:

1. No bros attacks until Ultibed gathering
2. You MUST get the entire attack in order to activate bros attacks (worth it anyway)
3. Harder to beat Mammoshka

I hope to improve soon; maybe even go for ~11:30 or less.

UPDATE: I just finished my new run, and everything went better than expected! Final time: 10:35. Here are a few things I learned in this run:

1. NO SLEEP MODE!!! Doing so will increase the timer
2. (did this in previous run) Run into a few enemies in the dream world (while saving pi'illo #3) to get pow scarf at dozing sands. This will help against cloud.
3. For Mammoshka, make use of your hiking boots. I only got 28 pow through them, but because of 3 lucky hits, I beat him in 4 minutes.
4. While leaving somnom woods, TAKE THE PIPE!!! I didn't use the pipe, and it was such a pain getting to zeekeeper.
5. In the final fight, there is lots of RNG involved (which attack to use, what order minions appear if bowser is taunted, etc). Sometimes bowser doesn't block an attack aimed at his head. Sometimes he could drag out the fight for as long as possible. It's more RNG-based than you think.

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.

[quote="insanity_wolf33"]Hey guys, I'm new to this forum. I just finished a test run WITH Early Grobot (final time: 11:56) and found some things about it:

1. No bros attacks until Ultibed gathering
2. You MUST get the entire attack in order to activate bros attacks (worth it anyway)
3. Harder to beat Mammoshka

I hope to improve soon; maybe even go for ~11:30 or less.[/quote]
UPDATE: I just finished my new run, and everything went better than expected! Final time: 10:35. Here are a few things I learned in this run:

1. NO SLEEP MODE!!! Doing so will increase the timer
2. (did this in previous run) Run into a few enemies in the dream world (while saving pi'illo #3) to get pow scarf at dozing sands. This will help against cloud.
3. For Mammoshka, make use of your hiking boots. I only got 28 pow through them, but because of 3 lucky hits, I beat him in 4 minutes.
4. While leaving somnom woods, TAKE THE PIPE!!! I didn't use the pipe, and it was such a pain getting to zeekeeper.
5. In the final fight, there is lots of RNG involved (which attack to use, what order minions appear if bowser is taunted, etc). Sometimes bowser doesn't block an attack aimed at his head. Sometimes he could drag out the fight for as long as possible. It's more RNG-based than you think.

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.

RegenerateLPs

2014-03-16 03:45:21 pm

Quote from insanity_wolf33:

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.

Can we get that picture? We need it for the Dream Team leaderboards. If legit, we believe your time is WR.

DhrGR

Edit history:

DhrGR: 2014-03-16 03:51:43 pm

2014-03-16 03:47:44 pm

Quote from insanity_wolf33:

UPDATE: I just finished my new run, and everything went better than expected! Final time: 10:35. Here are a few things I learned in this run:

1. NO SLEEP MODE!!! Doing so will increase the timer
2. (did this in previous run) Run into a few enemies in the dream world (while saving pi'illo #3) to get pow scarf at dozing sands. This will help against cloud.
3. For Mammoshka, make use of your hiking boots. I only got 28 pow through them, but because of 3 lucky hits, I beat him in 4 minutes.
4. While leaving somnom woods, TAKE THE PIPE!!! I didn't use the pipe, and it was such a pain getting to zeekeeper.
5. In the final fight, there is lots of RNG involved (which attack to use, what order minions appear if bowser is taunted, etc). Sometimes bowser doesn't block an attack aimed at his head. Sometimes he could drag out the fight for as long as possible. It's more RNG-based than you think.

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.

This is really cool, i myself have not had the time to try a run of this game after my 2nd run which was a 11:55, really glad someone finally beat it, one thing i kinda lack is proof, any proof of the game timer i will consider legit (as the game timer is as good as accurate as long you do not reset the game)

I myself used this as proof for my WR (in which i actually did reset so the timer was not accurate), so anything like this will work: http://i.imgur.com/JZ1KqPd.png
Also, a quick question: did you do this RTA (from the beginning to the end without breaks) or did you do it segmented (in parts)? (i think those are the terms... idunno)

Anyway, you are insane for even trying this, congratulations on staying awake and not dozing off in the dreams~ ^_^

[quote="insanity_wolf33"]
UPDATE: I just finished my new run, and everything went better than expected! Final time: 10:35. Here are a few things I learned in this run:

1. NO SLEEP MODE!!! Doing so will increase the timer
2. (did this in previous run) Run into a few enemies in the dream world (while saving pi'illo #3) to get pow scarf at dozing sands. This will help against cloud.
3. For Mammoshka, make use of your hiking boots. I only got 28 pow through them, but because of 3 lucky hits, I beat him in 4 minutes.
4. While leaving somnom woods, TAKE THE PIPE!!! I didn't use the pipe, and it was such a pain getting to zeekeeper.
5. In the final fight, there is lots of RNG involved (which attack to use, what order minions appear if bowser is taunted, etc). Sometimes bowser doesn't block an attack aimed at his head. Sometimes he could drag out the fight for as long as possible. It's more RNG-based than you think.

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.[/quote]

This is really cool, i myself have not had the time to try a run of this game after my 2nd run which was a 11:55, really glad someone finally beat it, one thing i kinda lack is proof, any proof of the game timer i will consider legit (as the game timer is as good as accurate as long you do not reset the game)

I myself used this as proof for my WR (in which i actually did reset so the timer was not accurate), so anything like this will work: [url]http://i.imgur.com/JZ1KqPd.png[/url]
Also, a quick question: did you do this RTA (from the beginning to the end without breaks) or did you do it segmented (in parts)? (i think those are the terms... idunno)

Anyway, you are insane for even trying this, congratulations on staying awake and not dozing off in the dreams~ ^_^

toadee

2014-03-16 06:31:23 pm

toad guy doing his own toad thing

Hello people.
I'm just poping up randomly to say that I really love this game, so I'm gonna spend some time glitch hunting and seeing what I can find.
Does anyone have any theories of potential sequence breaks / glitches?

I don't really plan on running this game, as I don't have a 3DS capture card and it's a pretty long run.
Also, I live in Europe so I have the PAL version, which I believe came out a month before NTSC.

Sorry for randomly popping up, I'll post what I find.

DhrGR

Edit history:

DhrGR: 2014-03-16 07:12:37 pm

2014-03-16 07:11:26 pm

Quote from toadee:

Hello people.
I'm just poping up randomly to say that I really love this game, so I'm gonna spend some time glitch hunting and seeing what I can find.
Does anyone have any theories of potential sequence breaks / glitches?

I don't really plan on running this game, as I don't have a 3DS capture card and it's a pretty long run.
Also, I live in Europe so I have the PAL version, which I believe came out a month before NTSC.

Sorry for randomly popping up, I'll post what I find.

Don't mind about randomly popping in, more people glitching this game is always nice ^_^

Most glitches so far we have found have been out-of bounds glitches and the "Dubble Jump" (which you use in the "Dozing Sands Skip")

Something that would be really cool would be early pajamaja mountains so you could get the skills from there, also something cool would be able to start the ultibed collecting earlier (altho i doubt this would ever work), which could potentially trigger the collecting quest (which also triggers extra skills at pajamaja mountain) and skip the entire [dreamy] driftwood shore

Maybe you could think of some more stuff on your own, but that is it for me~

[quote="toadee"]Hello people.
I'm just poping up randomly to say that I really love this game, so I'm gonna spend some time glitch hunting and seeing what I can find.
Does anyone have any theories of potential sequence breaks / glitches?

I don't really plan on running this game, as I don't have a 3DS capture card and it's a pretty long run. 
Also, I live in Europe so I have the PAL version, which I believe came out a month before NTSC.

Sorry for randomly popping up, I'll post what I find.[/quote]

Don't mind about randomly popping in, more people glitching this game is always nice ^_^

Most glitches so far we have found have been out-of bounds glitches and the "Dubble Jump" (which you use in the "Dozing Sands Skip")
 
Something that would be really cool would be early pajamaja mountains so you could get the skills from there, also something cool would be able to start the ultibed collecting earlier (altho i doubt this would ever work), which could potentially trigger the collecting quest (which also triggers extra skills at pajamaja mountain) and skip the entire [dreamy] driftwood shore

Maybe you could think of some more stuff on your own, but that is it for me~

toadee

Edit history:

toadee: 2014-03-17 06:31:41 pm

2014-03-17 06:28:04 pm

toad guy doing his own toad thing

Ok, well I thought I should make a post about this as it could happen to someone.

I was experimenting with the Early Grobot trick and I managed to softlock my game.

When Mario is on the bridge, if you move Mario upwards he will be in the middle of the bridge, thus putting him back into bounds. This means that Luigi is underneath Mario and there are two platforms at the two ends of the bridge, and therefore, you cannot get anywhere else. You are stuck on the bridge.

Not the coolest find, but I thought I should let people now about this.

toadee

2014-03-17 06:31:38 pm

toad guy doing his own toad thing

here is what the softlock looks like
(terrible quality, taken with my phone)

Attachment:

DT softlock.JPG

insanity_wolf33

2014-05-18 08:46:11 pm

Quote from RegenerateLPs:

Quote from insanity_wolf33:

For the most part, the reason behind such an improvement is gradually gaining time in each area (fewer encounters, being more familiar with the route, etc). However, my only proof of such a time is a photo on my camera roll.

Can we get that picture? We need it for the Dream Team leaderboards. If legit, we believe your time is WR.

I just PM'd you my time. Now we have legit proof of my WR.

Gamer128

2014-07-08 07:24:24 am

One thing I was thinking about during my play through (but sadly only after the opportunity to test it had passed) was that it could be possible to skip the breaking rocks for the Mushrise Tree Board because the entrance to the area is always there, but you are blocked by an NPC when you try to walk through and presumably the board is always there.
Depending on what is needed for a glitch (if one is possible) you could get it on your first visit to the Maintenance Hut area

PotatoGrenades

Edit history:

PotatoGrenades: 2014-08-27 03:05:28 pm

2014-08-27 03:03:39 pm

EDIT: sorry, didn't realize i was still in my old account. Re-posting what i said in my main account...

RTG

2014-08-27 03:07:18 pm

Here's what i meant to post:

Maybe we can use the same OoB method used for early hammers and early Grobot to get the Tree Board early, though this may not worm as the Ultibed quest maybe can probably only be triggered in its proper time. Though, i was talking to a runner named B00spring a few weeks ago and he/she theoretically thought that we could maybe skip the entire Ultibed quest by glitching into Somnom Woods early, essentially skipping over 3 hours of bullshit fetch questing. His/her theory was the same method that allowed us to do Dozing Sands Torkscrew skip; the Ultibed part gathering isn't actually an event flag, but more or less a means of getting to said event. The reason the game allows us to get to the Dream Stone event without fighting Torkscrew/building the stairs is because the game doesn't EXPECT you to access said event without completing the pre-requisites, so why should the game stop you? You're not meant to access the event without completing other tasks because said tasks are the only means of actually REACHING said event, not activating it. IIRC, the game doesn't let you enter Somnom Woods unless you have all the ultibed parts, so if we could possibly clip out of bounds and maybe hit the Somnom entrance loading zone from behind, we could possibly enter Dreamy Somnom/fight Giant Zeekeeper without doing the fetch quest. Just a theory, but someone needs to do some testing on this to see if it actually may work.

Here's what i meant to post:

Maybe we can use the same OoB method used for early hammers and early Grobot to get the Tree Board early, though this may not worm as the Ultibed quest maybe can probably only be triggered in its proper time. Though, i was talking to a runner named B00spring a few weeks ago and he/she theoretically thought that we could maybe skip the entire Ultibed quest by glitching into Somnom Woods early, essentially skipping over 3 hours of bullshit fetch questing. His/her theory was the same method that allowed us to do Dozing Sands Torkscrew skip; the Ultibed part gathering isn't actually an event flag, but more or less a means of getting to said event. The reason the game allows us to get to the Dream Stone event without fighting Torkscrew/building the stairs is because the game doesn't EXPECT you to access said event without completing the pre-requisites, so why should the game stop you? You're not meant to access the event without completing other tasks because said tasks are the only means of actually REACHING said event, not activating it. IIRC, the game doesn't let you enter Somnom Woods unless you have all the ultibed parts, so if we could possibly clip out of bounds and maybe hit the Somnom entrance loading zone from behind, we could possibly enter Dreamy Somnom/fight Giant Zeekeeper without doing the fetch quest. Just a theory, but someone needs to do some testing on this to see if it actually may work.

KaiserGrimley

2014-08-28 02:06:37 pm

Oh

Oh, hello. I was actually experimenting with a speedrun route for this myself. Glad to see there's still interest in this game!

I think you're right about most of what you said- every area in the game seems to assume you made it there properly, essentially. As long as we can figure out how, we can basically skip ahead to any point in the game by forcing ourselves into a corresponding area. The problem is actually managing to do that.

For Somnom, it looks like you'd need the Ball Bros. move anyway to climb a bunch of steep hills, and after that there's a room with a gate that you need Bedsmith's help to open. I don't really see anyplace in either of those two areas that seems promising for going out of bounds, so I have a feeling we won't manage that one unless we discover a different glitch. It certainly would save a lot of time though.

I DO think there are ways we could squeeze out of bounds to reach the Mushrise Tree Board, however. Not sure how the game will respond, but at worst, it would at least let us skip the entire boulder-breaking chore. If I find any new skips, I'll be sure to say so.

Anyway I guess I should probably post in the place where people introduce themselves too.

Oh, hello. I was actually experimenting with a speedrun route for this myself. Glad to see there's still interest in this game!

I think you're right about most of what you said- every area in the game seems to assume you made it there properly, essentially. As long as we can figure out how, we can basically skip ahead to any point in the game by forcing ourselves into a corresponding area. The problem is actually managing to do that.

For Somnom, it looks like you'd need the Ball Bros. move anyway to climb a bunch of steep hills, and after that there's a room with a gate that you need Bedsmith's help to open. I don't really see anyplace in either of those two areas that seems promising for going out of bounds, so I have a feeling we won't manage that one unless we discover a different glitch. It certainly would save a lot of time though.

I DO think there are ways we could squeeze out of bounds to reach the Mushrise Tree Board, however. Not sure how the game will respond, but at worst, it would at least let us skip the entire boulder-breaking chore. If I find any new skips, I'll be sure to say so.

Anyway I guess I should probably post in the place where people introduce themselves too.

RTG

2014-08-28 03:02:22 pm

One thing that i discovered is that using the Bridge OoB (the BOoB, as i like to call it) to get hammers early by clipping out of bounds is useless. Saving the Pi'illo and getting the hammers in the intended way is faster than doing the BOoB. You'll rescue the Pi'illo at pretty much the same speed every time. I tested this earlier today and the intended method was actually faster. We'll still use the BOoB for early Grobot, but not for early hammers. The trick is too inconsistent to work properly and actually save any time compared to just saving thr Pi'illo.

RTG

2014-08-28 03:09:20 pm

Also, i was testing some other things today and i almost got a clip into the bridge right next to the Somnom entrance. I was randomly jumping around and mario twitched around spastically, but he didn't get to clip to the other side. This was in the early game, not when i triggered the Ultibed quest. This was still in my first Mushrise visit before fighting Grobot. I'll still keep trying to get it, though i assume my results will prove inconclusive.

Also, this: Just a small timesaver that i didn't see posted here earlier.

KaiserGrimley

Edit history:

KaiserGrimley: 2014-08-31 11:55:32 am

2014-08-31 11:16:00 am

Oh

Right, thanks for posting that. I forgot it hadn't been mentioned yet.

While I haven't found any new glitches or skips to speak of, I have been doing a sort of scouting playthrough for a route with the current skips. It's not done- I'm only up to the point of reviving Bedsmith so far- but I do have a few ideas and questions that I don't want to forget.

(Oh, and I've been focusing on a "Normal Mode" or Deathless route, by the way- whichever we want to call it. Some of this probably won't apply to any%.)

Ideas (if I'm on the wrong track, please let me know):

--About Red Shells: I'm pretty sure the best way to collect the pieces for these would be to take a short detour and collect about half of them while traveling north from Dozing Sands to Wakeport, and then to collect the other half while traveling south either immediately or while breaking rocks for the Mushrise Tree Board. Turning around and collecting them immediately will spend a LITTLE bit more time (maybe 20 seconds or so) but it might be worth it depending on how much time Bros. Attacks would shave off the fight with Mammoshka.

--About the Hooraws: I didn't realize in time to test how much it helps, but you can actually get ahold of Fighter Wear before Wakeport. Thing is, it's incredibly out of the way- after timing it, the detour to the Pajamaja Shell Hutch seems to take about 1 min 45 seconds (not counting the time spent pressing the button or buying the equipment, as you'll probably be doing those anyway later on.) It's hard to say whether it's worth it though. Normally it wouldn't be, but... We're following this up with 5 boss fights in a row. An extra 20 POW for each bro could definitely be useful.

I also had a strategy of wearing Payback Wear against Thunder Sass, but... I think it would only be helpful for a single payback hit. It seemed faster to idle and continue countering for about 15-20 damage per hit than to waste any time healing, even if I got another payback hit right away (those were doing about 55 damage, by the way.)

--About the Counter Belt: Not really an idea so much as an observation, but the Counter Belt is that piece of gear that gives one bro a nice power boost when the other one is KO'd. I tried it out, but sadly, that boost seems to go away as soon as both bros are back in action. Which is a shame, really, because Hero Wear would absolutely not have a downside if that boost persisted.

--About badge effects: Unless I'm loony, better badges seem to charge more slowly. The Risk and Master badges (which I'm pretty sure are both mid-level badges) can combine to charge the badge meter instantly, though. I've been using these while scouting to be able to experiment with my badge stock for important battles, but I just had the idea to use them to charge combos that would normally take a lot longer (say, the Miracle + Gold combo, which would be very useful against Kamek 3 and Dreamy Bowser but takes forever to build up to.) It's a little risky for a single-segment attempt, but in a segmented run, I think this idea holds some water as long as money isn't an object. Those badges are the most expensive things in the game.

Plain old questions:

--About Green Shells: Both of the outdated routes on the wiki say to get these. Um... why? It sounds like there's some merit to having them, but I really don't see how it can save more time than it takes to go into the caves, trigger the water pump, and sit through the cutscene of Brickle getting blasted out.

--About Mammoshka: Two particular Bros. Attacks would make this fight go smoothly: 3D Green Shells and Dropchoppers. However, both of these are highly out-of-the-way to get (and if I had to choose, I'm pretty sure I'd choose Dropchoppers.) Even worse, they aren't actually necessary to save time if you're lucky. In a segmented run, would it really be worth it to gather pieces for these, or would it be better to ignore the Block Monolifts and hope that Mammoshka uses attacks that let you break any helmets she gets with a counter?

--About Hammers: First off, it's kind of hilarious how hammers aren't even remotely useful in battle until the Elite Trio. On that topic, though, there are two good hammers you can get before that point. One of them is a Glass Hammer, which has 80 POW and can break whenever it wants to, but you can get it by taking three extra seconds to buy it. The other is the Blunt Hammer DX, which has 90 POW, never breaks, and does 150% damage against pointy critters (which you won't actually fight anymore), but takes longer to get. You'd have to get two Dream Eggs in Driftwood, take them to Seadric, get Luiginary Flame, and leave through the shortcut, then get the third egg and stop at Broque Madame's on the way back. If you're getting Bomb Derby anyway, I don't think it really adds that much traveling time (maybe 30-50 seconds or so) and Luiginary Flame is easily the fastest Skillathon/Broque Madame challenge there is, but it still takes time, and picking up the necessary Attack Pieces eats up a lot of time for an attack you may never use.

In essence, there are two main choices for hammers until the endgame: a fairly powerful one that you can get instantly but only keep using as long as you stay lucky, and an even stronger one that takes a short while to obtain, but might be worthwhile, as several of the best attacks from here on out rely on Mario's hammer. I don't know which is the better choice though.

So those were some nice big walls of text, and I'm probably even forgetting something already, but I don't really know where else to get other people's opinions on these things, so I hope you'll excuse me.

Right, thanks for posting that. I forgot it hadn't been mentioned yet.

While I haven't found any new glitches or skips to speak of, I have been doing a sort of scouting playthrough for a route with the current skips. It's not done- I'm only up to the point of reviving Bedsmith so far- but I do have a few ideas and questions that I don't want to forget.

(Oh, and I've been focusing on a "Normal Mode" or Deathless route, by the way- whichever we want to call it. Some of this probably won't apply to any%.)

Ideas (if I'm on the wrong track, please let me know):
[hidden]--About Red Shells: I'm pretty sure the best way to collect the pieces for these would be to take a short detour and collect about half of them while traveling north from Dozing Sands to Wakeport, and then to collect the other half while traveling south either immediately or while breaking rocks for the Mushrise Tree Board. Turning around and collecting them immediately will spend a LITTLE bit more time (maybe 20 seconds or so) but it might be worth it depending on how much time Bros. Attacks would shave off the fight with Mammoshka.

--About the Hooraws: I didn't realize in time to test how much it helps, but you can actually get ahold of Fighter Wear before Wakeport. Thing is, it's incredibly out of the way- after timing it, the detour to the Pajamaja Shell Hutch seems to take about 1 min 45 seconds (not counting the time spent pressing the button or buying the equipment, as you'll probably be doing those anyway later on.) It's hard to say whether it's worth it though. Normally it wouldn't be, but... We're following this up with 5 boss fights in a row. An extra 20 POW for each bro could definitely be useful.

I also had a strategy of wearing Payback Wear against Thunder Sass, but... I think it would only be helpful for a single payback hit. It seemed faster to idle and continue countering for about 15-20 damage per hit than to waste any time healing, even if I got another payback hit right away (those were doing about 55 damage, by the way.)

--About the Counter Belt: Not really an idea so much as an observation, but the Counter Belt is that piece of gear that gives one bro a nice power boost when the other one is KO'd. I tried it out, but sadly, that boost seems to go away as soon as both bros are back in action. Which is a shame, really, because Hero Wear would absolutely not have a downside if that boost persisted.

--About badge effects: Unless I'm loony, better badges seem to charge more slowly. The Risk and Master badges (which I'm pretty sure are both mid-level badges) can combine to charge the badge meter instantly, though. I've been using these while scouting to be able to experiment with my badge stock for important battles, but I just had the idea to use them to charge combos that would normally take a lot longer (say, the Miracle + Gold combo, which would be very useful against Kamek 3 and Dreamy Bowser but takes forever to build up to.) It's a little risky for a single-segment attempt, but in a segmented run, I think this idea holds some water as long as money isn't an object. Those badges are the most expensive things in the game.[/hidden]

Plain old questions:
[hidden]--About Green Shells: Both of the outdated routes on the wiki say to get these. Um... why? It sounds like there's some merit to having them, but I really don't see how it can save more time than it takes to go into the caves, trigger the water pump, and sit through the cutscene of Brickle getting blasted out.

--About Mammoshka: Two particular Bros. Attacks would make this fight go smoothly: 3D Green Shells and Dropchoppers. However, both of these are highly out-of-the-way to get (and if I had to choose, I'm pretty sure I'd choose Dropchoppers.) Even worse, they aren't actually necessary to save time if you're lucky. In a segmented run, would it really be worth it to gather pieces for these, or would it be better to ignore the Block Monolifts and hope that Mammoshka uses attacks that let you break any helmets she gets with a counter?

--About Hammers: First off, it's kind of hilarious how hammers aren't even remotely useful in battle until [i]the Elite Trio.[/i] On that topic, though, there are two good hammers you can get before that point. One of them is a Glass Hammer, which has 80 POW and can break whenever it wants to, but you can get it by taking three extra seconds to buy it. The other is the Blunt Hammer DX, which has 90 POW, never breaks, and does 150% damage against pointy critters (which you won't actually fight anymore), but takes longer to get. You'd have to get two Dream Eggs in Driftwood, take them to Seadric, get Luiginary Flame, and leave through the shortcut, then get the third egg and stop at Broque Madame's on the way back. If you're getting Bomb Derby anyway, I don't think it really adds that much traveling time (maybe 30-50 seconds or so) and Luiginary Flame is easily the fastest Skillathon/Broque Madame challenge there is, but it still takes time, and picking up the necessary Attack Pieces eats up a lot of time for an attack you may never use.

In essence, there are two main choices for hammers until the endgame: a fairly powerful one that you can get instantly but only keep using as long as you stay lucky, and an even stronger one that takes a short while to obtain, but might be worthwhile, as several of the best attacks from here on out rely on Mario's hammer. I don't know which is the better choice though.[/hidden]

So those were some nice big walls of text, and I'm probably even forgetting something already, but I don't really know where else to get other people's opinions on these things, so I hope you'll excuse me.

RTG

Edit history:

RTG: 2014-08-31 05:53:46 pm

2014-08-31 05:53:21 pm

Mammoshka is tricky, because i don't know if it'd be worth it to get Bro Attacks before fighting her. In order for us to even get Dropchopper (which is incredibly out of the way), we'd have to get Green Shells to trigger Weegee's attacks.

You're right about better badges building up slower. Kinda sucks that the meter resets when you change badges, because if it didn't we could've had a much easier time. I forgot what the Miracle + Gold combo does (i'm doing a second playthrough to find out new shit and stuff) but i assume the effect is pretty powerful considering it'll help in Kamek 3 and Dreamy Bowser.

Your Red Shell route seems pretty solid, considering another guy specified we won't get Bro Attacks until the Ultibed quest, it seems logical to get the attack on the way to the first Ultibed part. Bro Attacks won't matter much in actual bosses but Luiginary Attacks definitely help in dream world bosses. As far as i can tell, getting Luiginary Ball is mandatory but all the other ones are completely optional....BUT, Luiginary Wall absolutely DESTROYS Antasma if it's used in conjunction with counters and stuff, so it'd probably be worth it to go somewhat out of our way for Attack Pieces in Dreamy Wakeport. We REALLY need a special attack route that specifies which ones to get and not get, because it's giving me a headache just thinking about it.

Bear with me here, but i'm gonna assume L Flame's Broque madame challenge gives you the Blunt Hammer DX.

Also, something worth noting is that in the Mount Pajamaja dream world after the Mammoshka fight but before Giant Mount Pajamaja, there's a block in one of the Luiginary Cone rooms which contains Hiking Boots. I'd reccomend using the 3DS as a shakeweight before doing runs so you get as most POW as possible when equipping them.

Mammoshka is tricky, because i don't know if it'd be worth it to get Bro Attacks before fighting her. In order for us to even get Dropchopper (which is incredibly out of the way), we'd have to get Green Shells to trigger Weegee's attacks.

You're right about better badges building up slower. Kinda sucks that the meter resets when you change badges, because if it didn't we could've had a much easier time. I forgot what the Miracle + Gold combo does (i'm doing a second playthrough to find out new shit and stuff) but i assume the effect is pretty powerful considering it'll help in Kamek 3 and Dreamy Bowser.

Your Red Shell route seems pretty solid, considering another guy specified we won't get Bro Attacks until the Ultibed quest, it seems logical to get the attack on the way to the first Ultibed part. Bro Attacks won't matter much in actual bosses but Luiginary Attacks definitely help in dream world bosses. As far as i can tell, getting Luiginary Ball is mandatory but all the other ones are completely optional....BUT, Luiginary Wall absolutely DESTROYS Antasma if it's used in conjunction with counters and stuff, so it'd probably be worth it to go somewhat out of our way for Attack Pieces in Dreamy Wakeport. We REALLY need a special attack route that specifies which ones to get and not get, because it's giving me a headache just thinking about it.

Bear with me here, but i'm gonna assume L Flame's Broque madame challenge gives you the Blunt Hammer DX.

Also, something worth noting is that in the Mount Pajamaja dream world after the Mammoshka fight but before Giant Mount Pajamaja, there's a block in one of the Luiginary Cone rooms which contains Hiking Boots. I'd reccomend using the 3DS as a shakeweight before doing runs so you get as most POW as possible when equipping them.

KaiserGrimley

2014-08-31 08:44:13 pm

Oh

Actually, getting Red Shells made Bros. Attack blocks appear for both bros for me. I even tried getting Green Shells without bothering with Red Shells, and Luigi's block never showed up. Maybe that's a version difference? I know I've been ignoring the game updates.
...Not that it makes what to do about Mammoshka any clearer, though. We'll probably just have to figure other things out first.

Miracle + Gold stops time for two turns. It's not powerful per se, but each of Kamek 3's turns will usually go through two or three very lengthy attacks, plus White Kamek healing someone, plus Green Kamek boosting their stats (starting with Defense.) It's worth pulling out a couple of stops to keep them from doing anything. As for Dreamy Bowser, stopping time will keep him from covering his head, meaning two free turns of attacks without having to deal with the arm first. (Admittedly, I wouldn't have thought of that one, but I'm glad I heard about it.)

Yeah, Luiginary Flame is what you need to get the Blunt Hammer DX. I haven't actually looked into most of the other prizes since quite a few of the challenges earn points at a snail's pace, but I did find a list that had the rewards' names, and nothing really stood out. The only other somewhat quick challenge that I'm aware of is Bomb Derby, which earns Bare Boots DX (90 POW plus a bonus if you don't have pants equipped.) It doesn't seem quite as important in light of the Hiking Boots, but I guess it might be an okay improvement for whichever bro isn't wearing those.

As for a special attack route... well, I at least have a vague idea of how helpful the various attacks are. Nothing particularly authoritative, but it's a starting point, at least.

Mario's Attacks:
-Red Shells (Mushrise): Mandatory to use anything else on the lists. Pick them up, and then never use them.

-Bye Bye Cannon (Wakeport): It's certainly DECENT... I actually really like it, but its attack animation kind of takes forever to finish, so I have a feeling I've been using it more than I should have. It's probably worth picking up, but only worth using on select bosses.

-Bomb Derby (Driftwood): Easy to gather, decent damage output, good for multiple targets, very fast. Worth it, especially for taking out Pi'illodium's wings quickly.

-Jet-Board Dash (Somnom): It's basically the strongest and fastest attack Mario has. Unless it takes way longer to gather than I recall, it's worth it even with only two bosses remaining.

-Zee Egg (Depetrify all 52 Pi'illos in the game): Somehow I get the feeling this won't save very much time.

Essentially, each attack seems worth getting to me (aside from Zee Egg, of course.)

Luigi's Attacks:
-Green Shells (Mushrise/Brickle): Too slow for how wimpy they are. Did you know they can hit Dreamy Bowser's arms? Weird.

-Fire Flowers (Dozing Sands): We skip Dozing Sands. We skip Fire Flowers. Honestly, we're not missing out on much anyway.

-Dropchopper (Pajamaja): It doesn't take long, it does pretty good damage, and the shockwave effect is surprisingly useful against both Mammoshka and Popple & Wiggler, assuming you want Popple out of the way. I really don't know if that's enough to justify getting it, though. Of the 10 pieces, you'd need to do some minor backtracking for one of them, you'd find another atop the small mountain that the video from earlier skips, and for a third one you'd need to rescue that one Pi'illo with the lane-changing golden weight puzzle in an optional side area. Plus, you get a very nice alternative one boss fight later. So... I can't believe it, but I actually think it wastes more time than it saves.

-Slingsniper (Massif Vert 2 Beef Steak etc.): Thank goodness this is unavoidable. It's basically as good as Dropchopper, if not better, except it doesn't cost a boatload of time to gather.

-Star Rocket (Neo Bowser Castle): Heavily damaging, but takes lots of time. However, considering the only non-dream boss left is Dreamy Bowser, who's weak to jumps and has some pretty darn lengthy attacks himself, I say it's worth making your own turns take longer if it keeps Dreamy Bowser from doing the same with his turns.

I think I'd only get Slingsnipers and Star Rockets. I'm not sure about Dropchoppers though.

Luiginary Attacks:
-Ball (D. Mushrise): It's mandatory, so I guess you're getting it. Kinda does less than a normal jump to a single target though. It's better for crowd-clearing, and by the time you've got a dream boss with multiple targets, the single-target moves are already a better choice.

-Stack (D. Sands): Not only is this the second-best weapon you have against Beef Cloud, it's also the most damaging Luiginary Attack that can draw power from the Hiking Boots, so it's probably worth it. I don't like using it much though, it's a little slow (and I'm not that good at it.)

-Hammer (D. Pajamaja): It's more or less the (faster) hammer counterpart to Luiginary Stack, I guess. It'll probably be weaker throughout a lot of the game because of the Hiking Boots, but I've found it useful, especially since it's not strictly single-target. That shockwave also makes it a perfect finishing blow to the Elite Trio. Luiginary Wall kind of competes pretty heavily with this though, and you only fight a single dream battle inbetween the two.

-Flame (D. Driftwood): As much as I usually like it, it's seriously weak in a speedrun. Some of the pieces are really out of the way, too, which means even getting this for the Blunt Hammer probably isn't worth it. (I kinda forgot about how long the attack pieces take to find...)

-Wall (D. Wakeport): From what I remember, not only is this the most damaging Luiginary Attack there is, but it can also hit every target with roughly the same ferocity. Definitely worth the time spent, unless Luiginary Hammer ends up edging it out by arriving first and being just as good.

-Typhoon (D. Somnom?): ...I think I'm just not good at this one. I've never managed to make it seem better than any other attack, and I've given it more than a few chances. Far as I can tell, this attack just isn't that strong.

Ball is mandatory, and Stack is definitely useful. Hammer and Wall are also useful, and pretty similar to each other, so I don't know which would be better to get (or if both would be good.) Wall usually is a little better than Hammer but is found a little later. Flame would only be useful in getting the Blunt Hammer (and it's actually probably not worth it whoops)

...And, well, that's that. Didn't exactly decide anything, but I'm at least pretty sure I have the right ideas outside the Dream World.

Actually, getting Red Shells made Bros. Attack blocks appear for both bros for me. I even tried getting Green Shells without bothering with Red Shells, and Luigi's block never showed up. Maybe that's a version difference? I know I've been ignoring the game updates.
...Not that it makes what to do about Mammoshka any clearer, though. We'll probably just have to figure other things out first.

Miracle + Gold stops time for two turns. It's not powerful per se, but each of Kamek 3's turns will usually go through two or three very lengthy attacks, plus White Kamek healing someone, plus Green Kamek boosting their stats (starting with Defense.) It's worth pulling out a couple of stops to keep them from doing anything. As for Dreamy Bowser, stopping time will keep him from covering his head, meaning two free turns of attacks without having to deal with the arm first. (Admittedly, I wouldn't have thought of that one, but I'm glad I heard about it.)

Yeah, Luiginary Flame is what you need to get the Blunt Hammer DX. I haven't actually looked into most of the other prizes since quite a few of the challenges earn points at a snail's pace, but I did find a list that had the rewards' names, and nothing really stood out. The only other somewhat quick challenge that I'm aware of is Bomb Derby, which earns Bare Boots DX (90 POW plus a bonus if you don't have pants equipped.) It doesn't seem quite as important in light of the Hiking Boots, but I guess it might be an okay improvement for whichever bro isn't wearing those.

As for a special attack route... well, I at least have a vague idea of how helpful the various attacks are. Nothing particularly authoritative, but it's a starting point, at least.

[hidden]Mario's Attacks:
-Red Shells (Mushrise): Mandatory to use anything else on the lists. Pick them up, and then never use them.

-Bye Bye Cannon (Wakeport): It's certainly DECENT... I actually really like it, but its attack animation kind of takes forever to finish, so I have a feeling I've been using it more than I should have. It's probably worth picking up, but only worth using on select bosses.

-Bomb Derby (Driftwood): Easy to gather, decent damage output, good for multiple targets, very fast. Worth it, especially for taking out Pi'illodium's wings quickly.

-Jet-Board Dash (Somnom): It's basically the strongest and fastest attack Mario has. Unless it takes way longer to gather than I recall, it's worth it even with only two bosses remaining.

-Zee Egg (Depetrify all 52 Pi'illos in the game): Somehow I get the feeling this won't save very much time.

Essentially, each attack seems worth getting to me (aside from Zee Egg, of course.)

Luigi's Attacks:
-Green Shells (Mushrise/Brickle): Too slow for how wimpy they are. Did you know they can hit Dreamy Bowser's arms? Weird.

-Fire Flowers (Dozing Sands): We skip Dozing Sands. We skip Fire Flowers. Honestly, we're not missing out on much anyway.

-Dropchopper (Pajamaja): It doesn't take long, it does pretty good damage, and the shockwave effect is surprisingly useful against both Mammoshka and Popple & Wiggler, assuming you want Popple out of the way. I really don't know if that's enough to justify getting it, though. Of the 10 pieces, you'd need to do some minor backtracking for one of them, you'd find another atop the small mountain that the video from earlier skips, and for a third one you'd need to rescue that one Pi'illo with the lane-changing golden weight puzzle in an optional side area. Plus, you get a very nice alternative one boss fight later. So... I can't believe it, but I actually think it wastes more time than it saves.

-Slingsniper (Massif Vert 2 Beef Steak etc.): Thank goodness this is unavoidable. It's basically as good as Dropchopper, if not better, except it doesn't cost a boatload of time to gather.

-Star Rocket (Neo Bowser Castle): Heavily damaging, but takes lots of time. However, considering the only non-dream boss left is Dreamy Bowser, who's weak to jumps and has some pretty darn lengthy attacks himself, I say it's worth making your own turns take longer if it keeps Dreamy Bowser from doing the same with his turns.

I think I'd only get Slingsnipers and Star Rockets. I'm not sure about Dropchoppers though.

Luiginary Attacks:
-Ball (D. Mushrise): It's mandatory, so I guess you're getting it. Kinda does less than a normal jump to a single target though. It's better for crowd-clearing, and by the time you've got a dream boss with multiple targets, the single-target moves are already a better choice.

-Stack (D. Sands): Not only is this the second-best weapon you have against Beef Cloud, it's also the most damaging Luiginary Attack that can draw power from the Hiking Boots, so it's probably worth it. I don't like using it much though, it's a little slow (and I'm not that good at it.)

-Hammer (D. Pajamaja): It's more or less the (faster) hammer counterpart to Luiginary Stack, I guess. It'll probably be weaker throughout a lot of the game because of the Hiking Boots, but I've found it useful, especially since it's not strictly single-target. That shockwave also makes it a perfect finishing blow to the Elite Trio. Luiginary Wall kind of competes pretty heavily with this though, and you only fight a single dream battle inbetween the two.

-Flame (D. Driftwood): As much as I usually like it, it's seriously weak in a speedrun. Some of the pieces are really out of the way, too, which means even getting this for the Blunt Hammer probably isn't worth it. (I kinda forgot about how long the attack pieces take to find...)

-Wall (D. Wakeport): From what I remember, not only is this the most damaging Luiginary Attack there is, but it can also hit every target with roughly the same ferocity. Definitely worth the time spent, unless Luiginary Hammer ends up edging it out by arriving first and being just as good.

-Typhoon (D. Somnom?): ...I think I'm just not good at this one. I've never managed to make it seem better than any other attack, and I've given it more than a few chances. Far as I can tell, this attack just isn't that strong.

Ball is mandatory, and Stack is definitely useful. Hammer and Wall are also useful, and pretty similar to each other, so I don't know which would be better to get (or if both would be good.) Wall usually is a little better than Hammer but is found a little later. Flame would only be useful in getting the Blunt Hammer (and it's actually probably not worth it whoops)[/hidden]

...And, well, that's that. Didn't exactly decide anything, but I'm at least pretty sure I have the right ideas outside the Dream World.

RTG

Edit history:

RTG: 2014-09-01 08:33:04 am

2014-09-01 08:32:23 am

Based on your notes as well as my general overall routing, i think this is how the Special Attack route should look like:

Red Shells: get it on the way to the Tree Board but never use it.

Bye Bye Cannon: probably worth it for Mammoshka and Dreamy Bowser since both are weak to jumps. Assuming we can get Excellents every time, we have 12 jump strikes with the upped POW from the Hiking Boots on jump-weak bosses, which is a tremendous damage output, especially on Easy Mode. We can get the pieces quickly and reliably before doing Big Massif and the Hooraws, and it'll help in Pajamaja/Neo Castle.

Bomb Derby: very good attack but some pieces can only be gotten via the Bros. Ball move which we don't get until the Pajamaja revisit for the Ultibed. Maybe it's worth saving it for after the Tree board, or we could maybe do the Ultibed parts out of order to suit our needs. Aside from that, very worth it for stuff like Pi'illodium.

Jet-Board Bash: worth it. Fastest and strongest attack for Mario, assuming we have a strong enough hammer for it. Pieces aren't too far out and Somnom isn't too big of an area.

Zee Egg: ignore. We won't save all Pi'illos ever in a run just for an attack that does slightly more damage than Jet-Board Bash or Slingsniper.

Dropchoppers will waste more time than they could save, Green Shells are useless and Fire Flowers will never be gotten because we skip Dozing Sands. Slingsniper can put out some fairly decent damage with Hiking Boots and Star Rocket would be very useful against Dreamy Bowser.

As for Luiginary Attacks...

We get Ball because it's mandatory. Stack would be good with Hiking Boots. Wall is superior to Hammer IMO because it can do more damage in less time, though hammer can still be useful against bosses. Typhoon is.....meh. It can do SOME decent damage if you try hard enough, but it's just overall a weak attack. Not very worth it in my eyes, especially since it's gotten in the biggest motherfucking area in the game, Dreamy Somnom. Flame is useless since it's probably not worth it to do the Broque Madame challenge just for a stronger hammer. The pieces are too far out and it'll be just like Dropchopper in the sense that it will waste more time than it will save.

I'm currently working on an updated route, as well as a short, rudimentary route that gives a basic idea of how the run goes. It's almost finished, and i plan on posting it in the following days, probably.

SPECIAL ATTACK ROUTE:

Mario: everything except Zee Egg
Luigi: Slingsniper and Star rocket
Luiginary: Everything except Flame and Typhoon

Also, Hiking Boots are love. Hiking Boots are life.

Based on your notes as well as my general overall routing, i think this is how the Special Attack route should look like:

Red Shells: get it on the way to the Tree Board but never use it.

Bye Bye Cannon: probably worth it for Mammoshka and Dreamy Bowser since both are weak to jumps. Assuming we can get Excellents every time, we have 12 jump strikes with the upped POW from the Hiking Boots on jump-weak bosses, which is a tremendous damage output, especially on Easy Mode. We can get the pieces quickly and reliably before doing Big Massif and the Hooraws, and it'll help in Pajamaja/Neo Castle.

Bomb Derby: very good attack but some pieces can only be gotten via the Bros. Ball move which we don't get until the Pajamaja revisit for the Ultibed. Maybe it's worth saving it for after the Tree board, or we could maybe do the Ultibed parts out of order to suit our needs. Aside from that, very worth it for stuff like Pi'illodium.

Jet-Board Bash: worth it. Fastest and strongest attack for Mario, assuming we have a strong enough hammer for it. Pieces aren't too far out and Somnom isn't too big of an area.

Zee Egg: ignore. We won't save all Pi'illos ever in a run just for an attack that does slightly more damage than Jet-Board Bash or Slingsniper.

Dropchoppers will waste more time than they could save, Green Shells are useless and Fire Flowers will never be gotten because we skip Dozing Sands. Slingsniper can put out some fairly decent damage with Hiking Boots and Star Rocket would be very useful against Dreamy Bowser.

As for Luiginary Attacks...

We get Ball because it's mandatory. Stack would be good with Hiking Boots. Wall is superior to Hammer IMO because it can do more damage in less time, though hammer can still be useful against bosses. Typhoon is.....meh. It can do SOME decent damage if you try hard enough, but it's just overall a weak attack. Not very worth it in my eyes, especially since it's gotten in the biggest motherfucking area in the game, Dreamy Somnom. Flame is useless since it's probably not worth it to do the Broque Madame challenge just for a stronger hammer. The pieces are too far out and it'll be just like Dropchopper in the sense that it will waste more time than it will save.

I'm currently working on an updated route, as well as a short, rudimentary route that gives a basic idea of how the run goes. It's almost finished, and i plan on posting it in the following days, probably.

SPECIAL ATTACK ROUTE:

Mario: everything except Zee Egg
Luigi: Slingsniper and Star rocket
Luiginary: Everything except Flame and Typhoon

Also, Hiking Boots are love. Hiking Boots are life.

KaiserGrimley

2014-09-01 10:39:10 am

Oh

That mostly sounds good to me. Regarding Bomb Derby, you don't actually need Ball Bros to get any attack pieces. I've always reached them all my first time through by using the Spin Jump. Never considered using Ball Bros, actually. Though, while it would save time in reaching select Attack pieces if you were on the same path, I don't think it would save any time when you're just traveling across the place with warp pipes, so it's probably just best to get them all while gathering the eggs.

Um, also, you kind of contradicted yourself there. If we're getting Red Shells on the way to the Tree Board, then Bye Bye Cannons won't actually be useful against Mammoshka since we can't use them. If we want to collect Bye Bye Cannons, we should definitely pick up Red Shells entirely on the way to Wakeport.

Also, I'm going to be on the lookout for any decent hammers as I continue scouting today. We really only need two, ever: one for Mario for every boss from the Elite Trio onward, and one for Luigi to use occasionally in Neo Bowser Castle (and I remember there's an easy-to-get Crystal Hammer there, so that would do for a second one.) I really would rather avoid Glass and Crystal Hammers where I can, though. Those are a total RNG nightmare.

That mostly sounds good to me. Regarding Bomb Derby, you don't actually need Ball Bros to get any attack pieces. I've always reached them all my first time through by using the Spin Jump. Never considered using Ball Bros, actually. Though, while it would save time in reaching select Attack pieces if you were on the same path, I don't think it would save any time when you're just traveling across the place with warp pipes, so it's probably just best to get them all while gathering the eggs.

Um, also, you kind of contradicted yourself there. If we're getting Red Shells on the way to the Tree Board, then Bye Bye Cannons won't actually be useful against Mammoshka since we can't use them. If we want to collect Bye Bye Cannons, we should definitely pick up Red Shells entirely on the way to Wakeport.

Also, I'm going to be on the lookout for any decent hammers as I continue scouting today. We really only need two, ever: one for Mario for every boss from the Elite Trio onward, and one for Luigi to use occasionally in Neo Bowser Castle (and I remember there's an easy-to-get Crystal Hammer there, so that would do for a second one.) I really would rather avoid Glass and Crystal Hammers where I can, though. Those are a total RNG nightmare.

RTG

2014-09-01 10:51:57 am

Yeah, i noticed that contradiction. Thanks for pointing it out.

So we get Red Shells on the way to Wakeport. Sounds good to me.

I remember some enemies/blocks in the early game dropping Iron-Ball hammers, which may be useful depending on how runs go. Mario could probably use those, or we could buy some others, like an Iron Ball Hammer DX or Blunt Hammers, which can drop from Shy Guy Airtubs and Lakitus, respectively, so maybe we could possibly rely on RNG to get decent hammers, or we could just buy hammers in one of the multiple shops.

So, here's the special attack route:

Ignore Red Shells first time around and get them later before the first visit to Wakeport.
Get Bye Bye Cannon in Wakeport to help with Mammoshka later.
Ignore Dropchopper on Mount Pajamaja and head straight to Mammoshka.
Wreck Mammoshka with Bye Bye Cannon then head to Driftwood Shore.
Get the Bomb Derby pieces in Driftwood Shore.
You will automatically get Slingsniper on the Pajamaja revisit after completing a Ball Hop puzzle.
After building the Ultibed, head to Somnom Woods and collect the Jet-Board Bash pieces there.
After dealing with Zeekeeper and his shitty bullshit malfunctioning motherfucking Gyro controls, go through Neo Bowser Castle and get the Star Rocket pieces. After that, beat the game.

Yeah, i noticed that contradiction. Thanks for pointing it out.

So we get Red Shells on the way to Wakeport. Sounds good to me.

I remember some enemies/blocks in the early game dropping Iron-Ball hammers, which may be useful depending on how runs go. Mario could probably use those, or we could buy some others, like an Iron Ball Hammer DX or Blunt Hammers, which can drop from Shy Guy Airtubs and Lakitus, respectively, so maybe we could possibly rely on RNG to get decent hammers, or we could just buy hammers in one of the multiple shops.

So, here's the special attack route:

[hidden] Ignore Red Shells first time around and get them later before the first visit to Wakeport. 
Get Bye Bye Cannon in Wakeport to help with Mammoshka later. 
Ignore Dropchopper on Mount Pajamaja and head straight to Mammoshka. 
Wreck Mammoshka with Bye Bye Cannon then head to Driftwood Shore. 
Get the Bomb Derby pieces in Driftwood Shore. 
You will automatically get Slingsniper on the Pajamaja revisit after completing a Ball Hop puzzle. 
After building the Ultibed, head to Somnom Woods and collect the Jet-Board Bash pieces there. 
After dealing with Zeekeeper and his shitty bullshit malfunctioning motherfucking Gyro controls, go through Neo Bowser Castle and get the Star Rocket pieces. After that, beat the game. [/hidden]

KaiserGrimley

Edit history:

KaiserGrimley: 2014-09-01 12:23:26 pm

KaiserGrimley: 2014-09-01 12:22:15 pm

2014-09-01 12:19:43 pm

Oh

That special attack route sounds solid to me.

The normal Iron-Ball hammer is a reward from defeating Bowser the first time, but it's only got 18 POW. Kinda wimpy. The Iron-Ball DX might work, but that depends on how strong the iron ball itself is since it only has 60 POW compared to 80 from Glass Hammers. Sadly, Glass Hammers seem to be far and away the best bet for a while.

By Neo Bowser Castle, we'll be able to buy stronger Star Hammers (90 POW, enemies might not get to attack). After looking around, only two alternatives to Glass Hammers really seem promising before that point. For one, if we decide the extra experience and coins are worth fighting a Golden Beanie, we could hope it drops a Mini Hammer (90 POW, being Mini makes every attack Lucky.) If it's not worth fighting, there's also the Flame Hammer DX. It's a rare drop from a Spritzbloom with 72 POW. That's a little less than Glass Hammers, but it also can burn enemies, which will damage them and skip their turns. It might also be worth getting if it works on bosses.

In the end though, even a single-segment run really has to use a Glass Hammer for at least a battle or two. They're just too strong to pass up, and since Broque Madame's dream shop is already worth visiting for Hero Wear, it only takes a couple seconds to purchase one.

That special attack route sounds solid to me.

The normal Iron-Ball hammer is a reward from defeating Bowser the first time, but it's only got 18 POW. Kinda wimpy. The Iron-Ball DX might work, but that depends on how strong the iron ball itself is since it only has 60 POW compared to 80 from Glass Hammers. Sadly, Glass Hammers seem to be far and away the best bet for a while.

By Neo Bowser Castle, we'll be able to buy stronger Star Hammers (90 POW, enemies might not get to attack). After looking around, only two alternatives to Glass Hammers really seem promising before that point. For one, if we decide the extra experience and coins are worth fighting a Golden Beanie, we could hope it drops a Mini Hammer (90 POW, being Mini makes every attack Lucky.) If it's not worth fighting, there's also the Flame Hammer DX. It's a rare drop from a Spritzbloom with 72 POW. That's a little less than Glass Hammers, but it also can burn enemies, which will damage them and skip their turns. It might also be worth getting if it works on bosses.

In the end though, even a single-segment run really has to use a Glass Hammer for at least a battle or two. They're just too strong to pass up, and since Broque Madame's dream shop is already worth visiting for Hero Wear, it only takes a couple seconds to purchase one.