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That's a pretty strong showing, also that was good luck not getting any wands.

This is a game I've always wanted to run as well, but despite being very short, I always die a few times (your first two deaths mirror where I consistently die besides other places).  I guess it's a matter of compromising and taking those corners slower to ensure success.  Best of luck with your attempts!  Balls out, balls to the wall, etc. Balls. 
Hi! I'm andrewg!
I'm pretty careful just not to die, some places can be done quicker, but I think my aim was more of a consistent approach when I was speedrunning this seriously. But in a game this short, it really should have the speed boosts by grazing over the edges of the blocks. Your run is definitely faster than mine in a few areas, and the frames certainly add up!

My approach is very, well, moving in straight paths no matter what. There were only a few spots where I'd kind of try and curve the marble around things. It works alright, but I think the main reason I got the run I did was because I didn't do these faster tricks. For a run this short, I'd say it's definitely doable though. Honestly, I'd like to see this run beaten. Smiley
Edit history:
Elipsis: 2014-03-31 03:20:00 pm
Elipsis: 2014-03-27 05:06:49 pm
Elipsis: 2014-03-27 04:54:06 pm
Elipsis: 2014-03-27 04:30:44 pm
Quote from andrewg:
Honestly, I'd like to see this run beaten. Smiley


Happy to finally make that happen for you.  The longevity of your 2:54 WR is a serious testament to how amazing that run is.  You almost did yourself a disservice by making the game look so effortless.  This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, easy to reproduce.  It took me at least a month of serious practice to even get under 3 minutes.  My sum of best wasn't even better than 2:54 throughout most of this time.  Even beating Elliot's run is no simple task, especially deathless.  There are literally hundreds of places to screw up inside of a 3 minute run.  The game lives up to its name, it's fucking maddening.

I want to use this as an opportunity to really talk about optimizing this game.

The Big Strategy Post

Here's my new WR / comparison video as a reference.  You can see both of my runs and Andrew's.



Let's dig into the times a little more.  I might add the TAS in later but the TAS is frustrating because it's off-screen for the majority of the race.  When I get home I might put in some animated .gifs instead of the stupid arrows drawings.

Practice Race

We all know that you can finish this race with 55 seconds left and that's considered a great time... and I know I sound like a rambling crazy person but I swear there is a startling amount of time to gain here.  I keep talking about my gold split on this race like it's something mind-blowing, and I need to just make the damn video and drop it in here because I did have it recorded.  When I did it I think I said "what the fuck!" out loud... but I retimed it and just holy shit how.  It's totally offscreen so I had to use the score and the +1000 points to actually see what frame I finished on.

Andrew's run does the practice race in 7.0s, and my new one does it in 6.9s.  But this one time... just once... I did it in 6.6s.  I haven't the slightest effing clue what I did, or how to reproduce it... but it was almost a half second faster than the slowest "55" that you can get.  I know what the first half of it looks like.  15 seconds into the video - instead of going "around" the middle spikes as Andrew and I both do, you "jump" down as close as you can without cracking the marble.  Once you do this, you're entirely blind to the rest of the level.  It's definitely faster, but requires more blind play:


You can go on either the left or right and I don't think that it matters much.

After that, well... you do some series of inputs blind and finish the race quickly.  I wish I could provide more insight on how to do this better, but it was literally blind luck.

Beginner Race

Not a ton of room here, I've had runs that were almost the same as the TAS as far as time.  The #1 time save is frame-perfect drawbridge.  I went for it in the 2:52.1 run at 0:40 in the video, and it backfired badly.  You need to be moving at the marble's top speed towards the draw bridge at the same frame that it goes to the down position.  You also want to be on exactly the correct tile.  Of the 4 tiles that make the draw bridge, only 1 of them doesn't lines up with the correct route.  There is plenty of time to set this up, fortunately.

I have tried a few different ways to time it, the best thing has been the third green slinky.  If I get down there at the same time without passing the scroll, it will pounce on me and "force" me to move out of its way (or else get eaten) at exactly the right moment to time with the draw bridge.  This can save maybe 0.2 seconds on the existing record.



The TAS also takes a different route on the weird bridge after the pipe that may be worth experimenting with, but I haven't reproduced this yet.

Will fill in the next few tonight or tomorrow:

Intermediate Race

The largest time save that I believe to be untapped versus the current / former WRs is the section after the second pipe.  There is something I've done a couple of times that is so fast that it forces you to play blind afterwards, and I generally haven't been going for it.  Basically you ramp-drop off of the downhill ramp, deliberate trigger a screen-bounce sending you straight to the right, and then bounce off the wall, sending you straight down.  It's extremely fast and extremely dangerous.  Here's the approximate path you're shooting for.




Aerial Race

Silly Race

The Silly Shortcut is the HUGE multiple second timesaver here.  You can see it at 2:24 in the video but it's not done perfectly by any means.  Optimally I try to do it in one wall-bounce using approximately the route below.  My experimentation leads me to believe that it requires pixel-perfect alignment on the third gridline going up the ramp.  You also cannot travel downhill whatsoever (or maybe 1 pixel every few seconds with crazy bouncing?), so you can't overshoot it.



UltimateRace

I don't feel like there are any super cool tricks or impressive strategies here, it's mostly a matter of keeping your nerves together and not hesitating anywhere.  The key difference between Elliot's run and the way Andrew and I do it is the approach to the ramp at the beginning.  The safe route adds at least another second to the time.  When I first started learning the level, I used to occasionally whiff the angled approach (usually undershooting it).  I found with practice, though... I've gotten to probably 97% consistency on it.  Once you learn the timing in muscle memory, it becomes pretty consistent and is definitely a worthwhile time save.

The acid is the biggest threat in the level in my opinion.  But if you can keep your marble on either the first or fourth tile, you can get through safely pretty consistently.

Lastly, there's the possible time save on the disappearing floor.  It's similar to the drawbridge in beginner race in that the stage limits your progress, so there's no way to save time on the disappearing floor until the very last section.  Frame perfect last tile would be the best time-saver here.  If you come blasting through on the correct vector at top speed, that would be the time save.  Hit it too early though... and you've killed a potentially strong run in the home stretch.
Edit history:
andrewg: 2014-03-27 04:10:22 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 04:08:21 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 04:05:57 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 03:57:25 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 03:53:42 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 03:53:02 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 03:51:14 pm
andrewg: 2014-03-27 03:49:40 pm
Hi! I'm andrewg!
EDIT2: Submission text from current TAS "A level can only be completed in multiples of 16 frames." So it's a 16 frame "frame rule" that exists here. I really think the last stage is where a lot of time will be made up in future runs. Even tiny savings may result in 0.26 second improvements.

I think the corner clips are going to be very important when trying to inch out extra frame rules here.
What is it with games andrewg runs and frame rules?
Not a walrus
It's the same reason most of the games I run have you walking on the ceiling at some point.
I have been playing this for months now, and have been jealous of the 2:50.90 since it was achieved. Last night I believe pending any timer discrepancy, I achieved a 2:48.84. Please see my highlight on Twitch at http://www.twitch.tv/big_walsh/c/4302804 This was done on an NES with the real cart. I plan to submit for verification in the near future.
Speedrunner
Wow! Nice job!
Thanks dxtr. I really should give a lot of credit to Elipsis because before watching his runs I didnt know that shortcut on Silly was possible, and also because he played at a very competitive level to push other runners of the game. I am jist happy I could push it further and I know this will help push the Marble Madness community to really test the limits of the game, myself included.
Edit history:
andrewg: 2014-05-22 10:32:12 am
andrewg: 2014-05-22 10:29:07 am
Hi! I'm andrewg!
This is really weird. I had a dream someone beat the Marble Madness record last night.

Congrats! that's an awesome time. Smiley

EDIT: But seriously, I dreamt someone got 2:44 haha. Weird coincidence.

EDIT2: Really impressive stuff! Congrats again! I love that this game is getting some attention. I plan to go back to it eventually. Keep improving those times!!! Great work
Edit history:
big_walsh: 2014-05-22 10:58:12 am
Thanks Andrew. I am pumped about the game getting popular as well. I have been playing it since I was old enough to hold the controller. Let's break this game!

...and it is a bit concerning you dream about Marble Madness. Or should we all start dreaming about it? Maybe I'll start sleeping with my copy of the game under my pillow haha.
Is PJ
Wow awesome run!!
What's that gemma?
Hey Walsh, get that run submitted ASAP, please!  I wanted to show my roommate the newly-frontpaged run by Elipsis, but there's so many graphical errors in the recording that I'm too embarassed to share it.  Your recording on twitch looks pretty sound, so I have high hopes for it.
Thanks PJ.  And Crow!, I think I'm going to try to get it down to a sub 2:48 first before I submit something  to SDA.  However, Marble Madness has a unique way of getting under your skin to the point where you want to take an actual hammer to it AVGN style.  I'll post this current run if I get to the death-to-cart mode before getting a better time.
Edit history:
andrewg: 2014-05-26 01:08:54 am
Hi! I'm andrewg!
I think it makes sense to split when the screen fades to black from one stage to the next. Because the frame rules can sort of mess with the timing, I think this is an accurate way to do it.

The splits would need to be almost perfectly timed, which seems very difficult. It matters in the sense that you could lose 1/4th of a second in each of stages 1 through 5 and be confused as to where the time was lost or why.
Yea and if that is the case you can just use the splots at the finish lines as more of a reset gauge than a true time reading.
Edit history:
bassdeluxe27: 2014-05-28 08:10:31 pm
aka forte27
Ah, darn.  Someone already cut the 2:50?  And here I am just now getting a deathless PB.

That being said, I think my run is a dead heat with Elipsis's 2:50.9, and it missed the stage 5 skip (lol).

Wow, that's a pretty clean run w/ the exception of getting into the pipe on Silly.  I think I found that getting that smooth bonk like you did off the back wall around the final ramp in Silly only loses a minimal amount of time.  And any time you can get nice hammers, it is a sexy thing.
Quote from big_walsh:
I have been playing this for months now, and have been jealous of the 2:50.90 since it was achieved. Last night I believe pending any timer discrepancy, I achieved a 2:48.84. Please see my highlight on Twitch at http://www.twitch.tv/big_walsh/c/4302804 This was done on an NES with the real cart. I plan to submit for verification in the near future.


Congrats man!  I'm hype that competition for this game is heating up and I appreciate the strategy credit, although I just went for what the TAS does.  (Also slightly bummed that my record didn't last as long as Andrew's =P )

I look forward to seeing the high quality capture of this run.


Quote from Crow!:
Hey Walsh, get that run submitted ASAP, please!  I wanted to show my roommate the newly-frontpaged run by Elipsis, but there's so many graphical errors in the recording that I'm too embarassed to share it.  Your recording on twitch looks pretty sound, so I have high hopes for it.


Graphical errors?  I don't follow...
What's that gemma?
Quote from Elipsis:
Graphical errors?  I don't follow...

Watch the top, bottom, and left sides of the video.

The left side has a vertical grey bar.
The the bottom has a line of static that gets worse at the end of each race.
The top is continuously warping left and right during most races, and goes completely haywire at each race's beginning.
Quote from Crow!:
Quote from Elipsis:
Graphical errors?  I don't follow...

Watch the top, bottom, and left sides of the video.

The left side has a vertical grey bar.
The the bottom has a line of static that gets worse at the end of each race.
The top is continuously warping left and right during most races, and goes completely haywire at each race's beginning.


I think the left and bottom issues could be cropped out when we do the yua encode.  The bottom by the way is the top wrapping, and this actually occurs on my TV as well, it's not the capture card.  Marble Madness just does this - I saw the same thing in Andrew's video.

Do you have any suggestions for preventing these issues entirely?  I uh... don't want you to be embarrassed.
aka forte27
Yeah, we probably just need to consider cropping the left column of pixels to get rid of that gray line.  However, the top and bottom is just what Marble Madness does.  It's actually a pretty common thing in lots of NES games.  Marble Madness in particular has a lot of graphical weirdness like that, and it really can't be helped.
F*ckin' sanity effects...
Quote from Elipsis:
I uh... don't want you to be embarrassed.

Hahaha.  Awesome.  Great runs, btw, people who have posted recently!
Elipsis, I'm definitely pumped as well about the game getting some air time.  It looks like the record is going to be bouncing around a little now that more ppl are playing.  As far as the video quality goes, I think the NES just loads the extra images at the bottom, realizes it is out of room, and just puts it at the top of the screen.  This is probably the same reason you can do some bottom to top clips in some NES titles. 

As for posting the vid I have, I'm going to hold off before submitting for a little bit.  I personally think the time is beatable by a second or two with a near-TAS run, so I'm going to see if a fellow Marbler or I can achieve it. 
HELLO!
Yeah the edge of screen weirdness in NES games is just stuff that was never visible on most old TVs, but was always actually there.