Maphack on D2: LOD run?

2005-07-12 03:47:04 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Hello. I am trying to beat Marshmallow's Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction run. I was wondering if it would be OK to use a maphack for this. The maphack has other features, but the ones that I would use are:

-Reveal entire act map (incl waypoints and shines)
-Reveal monster locations, as well as superuniques and their minions
-Show shrine type once a certain proximity is reached

This woudl seem like an obvious no, but in single player LOD the map is generated once when the character is created. Marshmallow pointed out the legitimate strategy of playing ahead to see the whole map, not saving, then going back with prior knowledge of enemy groups, map, waypoints, etc. Maphack would give the same benefits without having to go ahead.

I am practicing with maphack now, but it won't ruin my day if I have to do the play-ahead method once I start recording.

I understand the argument for both sides, but just want to know if tradition is more important than avoiding some timewaste.

Thanks.

Thread title:

KennyMan666

2005-07-12 03:53:52 pm

Precursor

The general rule is that no modifications to the game can be made for the run to be accepted. So maphack would not be allowed.

Tub

2005-07-12 03:58:08 pm

m00

you'd pretty much piss off every legit bnet player in your audience if you used maphack.. you know, they'll get their torches and pitchforks, and off you go.

besides, any modification to make speedrunning easier is an unfair advantage, making MH the same it's on bnet: a cheat you shouldn't use.

Siyko

2005-07-12 04:05:58 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

The mh doesn't make the run easier. It just saves me the time of repeatedly playing through the same map to learn where everything is before I start recording.

It's fine if it's not allowed, but it's not like I'm bringing a whole new illegitimacy to the game, or modifying the game code to give me an advantage.

Aquashark

2005-07-12 04:29:20 pm

omg! wtf?

it gives an advantage over the previous runner. marshmallow didn't use any external, 3rd party programs (read the SDA rules) so it's his merit that he learned maps and all that, if you can't run the game normally then you're not worthy of taking down his run..

Morfans

2005-07-12 05:31:26 pm

Hell is where the heart is.

I've never used maphack, so excuse my ignorance.

If you started a game. Explored and came up with a route using maphack. Then turned map hack off and recorded that segment of the run...

...would anyone ever know?

Zurreco

2005-07-12 05:43:38 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote:

If you started a game. Explored and came up with a route using maphack. Then turned map hack off and recorded that segment of the run...

...would anyone ever know?

Well, that is essentially exactly what marsh did, but without the MH. Siyko is talking about playing the game and recording the run while using maphack, which just merges marsh's preliminary explorations with his actual recordings.

Samppa

2005-07-12 05:47:13 pm

He could also have a very short first segment, then load the save with the map hack and see where all the important things are, close the hack (restart the game?) and start running the second segment.

dirtyminuth

Edit history:

dirtyminuth: 2005-07-12 06:06:39 pm

2005-07-12 06:06:13 pm

Reserved Postulator

The argument that using MapHack simply combines a pre-run exploration and final recording doesn't hold. Using MapHack during the recording is an unfair benefit in terms of game mechanics. The player using MapHack doesn't have to remember their route as well, because MapHack serves a constant reminder of map locations, enemies, etc, while they are recording. This is different than playing ahead and forming a route. Use of MapHack while recording shouldn't even be an argument.

Using it as a tool to explore the game before a run is recorded is fine.

-dirtyminuth

Siyko

2005-07-12 06:14:34 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Fair enough dirty. Can't argue with that logic.

I assume I won't get any flak if I do use the maphack in preliminary prepeartions, it's just like looking at a level map in any other game, it's just automatically looked down upon as a hack for those of us that enjoy battlenet. But if it weren't for maphack, then we couldn't laugh as we claim "i have maphack" and run down a random corridor as 7 suckers follow you to a deadend.

Thanks for all the input and stuff.

Coriolanus

2005-07-12 07:20:55 pm

I know maphack shows the location of the regular monsters, bosses, and champions, which is important for efficient leveling. How consistant are the placement of the bosses when you restart from a saved game?

Also, are you using the Assassin as Marshmallow did?

Siyko

2005-07-12 08:51:38 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Superuniques and mobs are totally consistent. Only things that randomize are shrines (type, not location). I am not positive though, I'll find out by tomorrow.

And i'm using the sorc instead of the asn. At first I thought it would be much easier (tele of course), then i thoguht it would be much harder (beaten at 20, tele is at 18), then I thought it would be much easier (static field = instnat boss kill!), now I think it will be about the same. I've gotten to the beginning of act 2 at level 10, 3/4 to level 11, in under 30 minutes, which is about consistent with marsh. I'm hoping to do more early leveling. One thing that bugs me about marsh's run is that he enters act 4 at level 18, beats it getting no exp, then goes back to a3 and hits level 20! If he hit level 20 before doing act 4, he would be getting exp doing act 4, and it would make it easier! In either case, the sorc (hopefully) will have tele through all of act 4 and 5 making for an intense mana pot guzzling tele fest to breeze through those relatively short acts. A couple other minor improvements he could have too, especially potion buying/sorting.

Superuniques and mobs are totally consistent. Only things that randomize are shrines (type, not location). I am not positive though, I'll find out by tomorrow.

And i'm using the sorc instead of the asn. At first I thought it would be much easier (tele of course), then i thoguht it would be much harder (beaten at 20, tele is at 18), then I thought it would be much easier (static field = instnat boss kill!), now I think it will be about the same. I've gotten to the beginning of act 2 at level 10, 3/4 to level 11, in under 30 minutes, which is about consistent with marsh. I'm hoping to do more early leveling. One thing that bugs me about marsh's run is that he enters act 4 at level 18, beats it getting no exp, then goes back to a3 and hits level 20! If he hit level 20 before doing act 4, he would be getting exp doing act 4, and it would make it easier! In either case, the sorc (hopefully) will have tele through all of act 4 and 5 making for an intense mana pot guzzling tele fest to breeze through those relatively short acts. A couple other minor improvements he could have too, especially potion buying/sorting.

slYnki

2005-07-12 10:42:14 pm

XXY

Read the rules and FAQs pages, "NO CHEATS!!!" I believe it says.

Gorash

2005-07-12 10:55:54 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

Superuniques and mobs are totally consistent. Only things that randomize are shrines (type, not location). I am not positive though, I'll find out by tomorrow.

Not entirely true.
There are likely spots for both uniques and champs, but there's no guarantee there will spawn one in the game you are playing.

The rest of your strat seems decent, it's pretty much what can be changed in marshs run. The hard thing with that sorc will be Diablo himslf though... getting close enough to him and not dying while staticing is a huge gamble. I have a test sorc on that way to see if that's even possible, but I have some deadlines ahead of me right now.

One other thing: Don't bother about minor optimizations. The thing is so random that a split second failed to save here or there doesn't hurt, what you need is basically luck.

Coriolanus

2005-07-12 10:57:41 pm

I made some speculations concerning the sorc after watching the Marshmallow speedrun. The gist of it was that if you level up to 18 right before fighting duriel with the sorc you get teleport (a needed skill), then you only need two more levels in acts three and four to get to 20, so you can probably go as fast as you want from that point on. Marshmallow gained nearly 3 levels during act three, and .4 during act 4, but since he wasn't 20, he had to go back after hell to get exp. If you play the sorc right then you should be able to smoke through all of hell, possibly stopping to kill Izual for the two skill points (especially if he is in the direct route from the plains to the city). Act five should be faster as well because you can teleport (remember the assassin physically breaking down the doors of the fortresses?) and again you don't have to worry at all about leveling. You may spend more time in level 1 through 18 gaining exp, but it should be more than offset by the time savings in act 4 and 5. Marsh averages 3:31 per level up to level 18 and fights Duriel at 16.3 . When he beats diablo he has 19.6 levels which forced him to go back and get exp...

Please keep us posted on how your run preparations and executions are going. I really am looking forward to a sorc speedrun! :rockout:

I made some speculations concerning the sorc after watching the Marshmallow speedrun. The gist of it was that if you level up to 18 right before fighting duriel with the sorc you get teleport (a needed skill), then you only need two more levels in acts three and four to get to 20, so you can probably go as fast as you want from that point on. Marshmallow gained nearly 3 levels during act three, and .4 during act 4, but since he wasn't 20, he had to go back after hell to get exp. If you play the sorc right then you should be able to smoke through all of hell, possibly stopping to kill Izual for the two skill points (especially if he is in the direct route from the plains to the city). Act five should be faster as well because you can teleport (remember the assassin physically breaking down the doors of the fortresses?) and again you don't have to worry at all about leveling. You may spend more time in level 1 through 18 gaining exp, but it should be more than offset by the time savings in act 4 and 5. Marsh averages 3:31 per level up to level 18 and fights Duriel at 16.3 . When he beats diablo he has 19.6 levels which forced him to go back and get exp...

Please keep us posted on how your run preparations and executions are going. I really am looking forward to a sorc speedrun!  :rockout:

Umbra

2005-07-13 01:50:11 am

If you could use Maphack, I'd speedrun'd this game along time ago. Then again, I don't know how to record my run so I wouldn't have.

Siyko

2005-07-13 03:34:08 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Well, i've made some more progress.

Xth try on act 1, took me 27 minutes to beat andy @ level 11. Act 2 went slower than I'd hoped, I ended at level 16 and it took me almost 20 minutes. I made a lot of mistakes though, and by the end wasn't really 'trying' to speedrun, which are shoddy excuses, but I was rejuvinated when duriel took less than 10 seconds to kill. I think diablo will be a piece of cake, he'll hit the merc and kill him in 4 seconds, but during those 4 seconds, he'll be slivered.

Once I started act 3, I realized the same thing you mentioned Coriolanus. I will NEED to be level 18 here. And guzzling mana pots like woah. Act 2 is decent leveling in all the tombs and the arcane adn teh canyon, so I should take more advantage of this.

I'm hesitant to tell more about my strats until I figure that it will work, I want to get through the whole game on this build before I can start to judge how it will deal with the rest of teh game.

Another nice thing about the sorc: Finding/buying a nice staff that gives +3 to an important skill is REALLY valuble. It's almost like gaining 3 levels.

Well, i've made some more progress.

Xth try on act 1, took me 27 minutes to beat andy @ level 11. Act 2 went slower than I'd hoped, I ended at level 16 and it took me almost 20 minutes. I made a lot of mistakes though, and by the end wasn't really 'trying' to speedrun, which are shoddy excuses, but I was rejuvinated when duriel took less than 10 seconds to kill.  I think diablo will be a piece of cake, he'll hit the merc and kill him in 4 seconds, but during those 4 seconds, he'll be slivered.

Once I started act 3, I realized the same thing you mentioned Coriolanus. I will NEED to be level 18 here. And guzzling mana pots like woah. Act 2 is decent leveling in all the tombs and the arcane adn teh canyon, so I should take more advantage of this.

I'm hesitant to tell more about my strats until I figure that it will work, I want to get through the whole game on this build before I can start to judge how it will deal with the rest of teh game.

Another nice thing about the sorc: Finding/buying a nice staff that gives +3 to an important skill is REALLY valuble. It's almost like gaining 3 levels.

DragonWarriorr

2005-07-13 04:03:53 am

Currently needing ideas on games to speedrun

Man, Iremember playing Diablo II non-stop for hours on end. Great game, I would have done it with a sorc instead of an assassin, like you are. Finishing Act I at level 11 in 27 minutes is great, it's fast and it's a good level to start doing Act II at. I look forward to watching this speedrun and will try and help in anyway I can.

Coriolanus

Edit history:

Coriolanus: 2005-07-13 09:31:58 pm

2005-07-13 04:11:32 am

you may want to make your speed run front heavy, so that you can gain more time at the end.

Building up early is always a good idea because the monsters are easier and you get more exp if you are on par with the monsters' levels.

Also, you need 25 str for a normal belt which will allow you to carry 12 potions at a time. There is a belt trick which is to fill your belt with shift-buy, and then take it off. all potions but four go into your inventory. then drop the belt back on again and shift buy. Repeat this until your inventory is chock full of potions (if you have the gold).

Speaking of gold. Plus three staves are mighty expensive for a speed run character. You might be better off going for skills you dont have but could use, especially blaze!!! That way you could kill while running around. just a thought.

DragonWarriorr

2005-07-13 04:48:51 am

Currently needing ideas on games to speedrun

I totally forgot about blaze, but would it really be useful unless it was at a high level? Or if you got them to stand directly on the fire.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-07-13 12:21:09 pm

2005-07-13 12:19:09 pm

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About staves, I already did research on that:
Buying staves from Ormus with a level 18 spell on it and a random magic property gets as low as
- 34k for +1 and
- 85k for +2.

So +1 can be bought, +2 not.

I didn't do this for lv12 spells though. There you could hope for non magic staves in act2.

Also if anything should be bought it's teleport. The spell need an additional point in telekinesis, so buying a staff with it would spare you 2 points, which will go into synergies for fireball.

Chance is about 20%-30% to get the wanted +1 staff from Ormus.

Siyko

2005-07-13 02:37:18 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

True gorash, a tele staff would be best. Especially since it could go on weapon switch and I could still have another skill staff in my regular hand.

And Coriolanus, the fast belt buy is one of the things I saw marsh not do that gave me more confidence to beat his time, if only marginally. 25 str is nice, it gives a fair selection of shields as well if I'm lucky enough to find a +skill orb.

Coriolanus

Edit history:

Coriolanus: 2005-07-13 09:22:39 pm

2005-07-13 07:39:18 pm

Low level blaze may not be all that much, I agree. It has uses in the desert because of all those high aggro beasties.

What is your primary damage dealing method?

What are you doing for levels 1 to 6 where the sorcerous is weakest?

You might think about peeking Ormus or Drognan for a triple socketed bone shield (25 str), with three chipped diamonds that gives you 18 resist all. You can keep such a shield on your "switch" and pull it out when facing elemental nasties!

Also, don't overlook gems as a good power up. Leather armor and a skull cap with 2 sockets per can give you 40 extra health or mana using chipped ruby and saphires respectively. 40 health at the beginning can often be a 40% increase, pretty powerful stuff. A sorcerouses skill points are a costly source of health points. Also, Andariel always drops a normal gem. The TIR rune might also be of use for the mana conscious sorcerous. It gives +2 to mana after each kill (as you know) and works in any item.

Lag.Com

2005-07-13 07:45:57 pm

sda loyalist

I agree, Blaze is a good spell for just about any sorceress, because so many of the enemies spend a lot of time standing around in it. Also kills slow things pretty effectively (Acts 1 and 5 spring to mind).

Coriolanus

2005-07-13 09:30:31 pm

Re: Gorash and static field radius

I've snuffed :devil: (you know who!) with level 1 static field before.

Also you can get a cheap (relatively) staff for a little extra radius for static field.