low%/100% definitions

2008-09-17 01:26:50 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Quote from Enhasa:

petrie911 is like a god to me, thanks

Well, that went over a lot better than I thought it would.

Anyways, I agree about MZM. 1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles, and having the super expansion allows you to get supers in pickups. Come to think of it, though, can you kill metroids with only 4 missles? It would certainly make Tourian much more hellish if you can't.

soteos

2008-09-17 02:01:34 pm

For Banjo Kazooie, is the red health bar included in the 100% definition?

Satoryu

2008-09-17 02:09:30 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from petrie911:

1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles

in terms of firepower. but in ammo terms, how many items you can hold at one time, it's less.

MatrixTN

2008-09-17 02:33:42 pm

You got a deletion wish?

Quote from petrie911:

can you kill metroids with only 4 missles?

Five. Has been 5 (or 1 super) since the original. And even though 1 super missile is the equivalent of 5 regular missiles, it's still 10 items overall for low whichever way you look at it. Taking out the barriers in Tourian is a bitch with only 4 missiles (or 5 with 1 tank if you're playing normal, which I've done for the heck of it). The note originally said 9% normal wasn't acceptable because 10% on Hard is cooler.

Serris

2008-09-17 02:52:55 pm

Quote from petrie911:

Quote from Enhasa:

petrie911 is like a god to me, thanks

Well, that went over a lot better than I thought it would.

Anyways, I agree about MZM. 1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles, and having the super expansion allows you to get supers in pickups. Come to think of it, though, can you kill metroids with only 4 missles? It would certainly make Tourian much more hellish if you can't.

Metroids take 5 Missiles (or one Super), but of course, 4 is the maximum amount you can carry, not how many Missiles are available. That's what the Rinka are for.

Quote from Satoryu:

Quote from petrie911:

1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles

in terms of firepower. but in ammo terms, how many items you can hold at one time, it's less.

Yeah, but the only reason you can't beat the game with 2 Missiles are the respawning Missile blocks near the end, so it makes sense to get exactly what's required to get past that obstacle, nothing more. Supers aren't needed (in theory). The fact that 1 Missile Tank + 1 Super Missile Tank is one Missile less than two Missile Tanks doesn't matter IMO, because the ability to carry at least 3 Missiles at one time is only needed at that point in the game, so it comes down to fire power. It's similar to Resident Evil 4 low%: Just because you can't knife Salazar doesn't mean you can just get a Rocket Launcher and OHKO him, you have to move up one step on the weapon ladder, which means unupgraded Handgun + hundreds of bullets. I think this has been confirmed by an admin, but it makes sense either way. Again, I know Metroid is an exception, I'm not telling you to change the low% definition, I just think the description needs rephrasing.

[quote="petrie911"]
[quote="Enhasa"]petrie911 is like a god to me, thanks[/quote]

Well, that went over a lot better than I thought it would.

Anyways, I agree about MZM.  1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles, and having the super expansion allows you to get supers in pickups.  Come to think of it, though, can you kill metroids with only 4 missles?  It would certainly make Tourian much more hellish if you can't.
[/quote]

Metroids take 5 Missiles (or one Super), but of course, 4 is the maximum amount you can carry, not how many Missiles are available. That's what the Rinka are for.

[quote="Satoryu"]
[quote="petrie911"]
1 super + 2 missles > 4 missles
[/quote]

in terms of firepower. but in ammo terms, how many items you can hold at one time, it's less.
[/quote]

Yeah, but the only reason you can't beat the game with 2 Missiles are the respawning Missile blocks near the end, so it makes sense to get exactly what's required to get past that obstacle, nothing more. Supers aren't needed (in theory). The fact that 1 Missile Tank + 1 Super Missile Tank is one Missile less than two Missile Tanks doesn't matter IMO, because the ability to carry at least 3 Missiles at one time is only needed at that point in the game, so it comes down to fire power. It's similar to Resident Evil 4 low%: Just because you can't knife Salazar doesn't mean you can just get a Rocket Launcher and OHKO him, you have to move up one step on the weapon ladder, which means unupgraded Handgun + hundreds of bullets. I [i]think[/i] this has been confirmed by an admin, but it makes sense either way. Again, I know Metroid is an exception, I'm not telling you to change the low% definition, I just think the description needs rephrasing.

Elpis_TK31

Edit history:

Elpis_TK31: 2008-09-17 03:25:52 pm

2008-09-17 03:20:38 pm

PAL 50Hz KILL ME NOW

Quote from mikwuyma:

Zero series: Getting 100% and ranks is a lot different Enhasa. Rank just an in-game evaluation, it doesn't take into account the items you can collect.

Zero 1: I think it would just be all Cyber elves.

Zero 2: All Cyber elves and forms, except for the ones you can only collect after you beat the game.

Zero 3: I don't remember this game too well, but I think it would be all of those chips you can collect for Cerveau.

Zero 4: I don't know, I don't care about this game enough Undecided

Z2 100% - 78(or 77) Elves, 10 Forms, 10 EX Skills, 2 SubTanks
Z3 100% - 180 Disks, 12 Ex Skills, 2 SubTanks.
Z4 100% - 2 pick up SubTanks, 8 EX Skills. (Parts dropped by enemies = too random, it would take hours to make all the parts.)

The two other Subtanks that can be obtained in Z3 and Z4 are done through a: feeding and using elves and b: hunting for parts so you can make 2 S crystals to trade with Ilondelle >.> in Z2's case you'll be getting those 2 SubTanks anyways, since they're part of the road to unlocking the Ultimate Form...
In Z3, it's up to player/speed discretion wich Secret Disks should be opened (like, I don't know, the Quick Charge Head Chip located in Cactanks stage, or the Ultimate Foot Chip? :P)

I have only completed the Z2 100% run tho, and I worked a little while on Z3...I refined Z2 up to the point where I got SS 53'02(no deaths), with Z3 it was somewhere around 50+ but I forgot, Z2 had a much better streamline for collecting...that reminds me...Z1 is horrible to 100% >.> I hated doing it.

Z2 100% is definately in my RunPlan, but I can't do sh!t till I get my cable. >.< (I NEED IT NAO! >.<)
Z4 100% isn't much of a hassle, I can fit it seemlessly in with the route I have in mind...
(the only thing it changes is that I get more EX skills, and some stages are harder)
Z1 100%...*shudder* maybe If and when I'm done with the runs I like >.>

about ranks, I personally would love to see a SS 100point run...but...how possible is that?
(In my mind I only see this happening on Ultimate mode(Z1) New Game Plus(Z2) and a combination of those (Z3))

btw, X7 100% = All reploids rescued, All items (X Parts, Sub/W-/EXTanks, LifeUps)?

-Elpis

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Zero series: Getting 100% and ranks is a lot different Enhasa. Rank just an in-game evaluation, it doesn't take into account the items you can collect.

Zero 1: I think it would just be all Cyber elves.

Zero 2: All Cyber elves and forms, except for the ones you can only collect after you beat the game.

Zero 3: I don't remember this game too well, but I think it would be all of those chips you can collect for Cerveau.

Zero 4: I don't know, I don't care about this game enough  :-\
[/quote]

Z2 100% - 78(or 77) Elves, 10 Forms, 10 EX Skills, 2 SubTanks
Z3 100% - 180 Disks, 12 Ex Skills, 2 SubTanks.
Z4 100% - 2 pick up SubTanks, 8 EX Skills. (Parts dropped by enemies = too random, it would take hours to make all the parts.)

The two other Subtanks that can be obtained in Z3 and Z4 are done through a: feeding and using elves and b: hunting for parts so you can make 2 S crystals to trade with Ilondelle >.> in Z2's case you'll be getting those 2 SubTanks anyways, since they're part of the road to unlocking the Ultimate Form...
In Z3, it's up to player/speed discretion wich Secret Disks should be opened (like, I don't know, the Quick Charge Head Chip located in Cactanks stage, or the Ultimate Foot Chip? :P)

I have only completed the Z2 100% run tho, and I worked a little while on Z3...I refined Z2 up to the point where I got SS 53'02(no deaths), with Z3 it was somewhere around 50+ but I forgot, Z2 had a much better streamline for collecting...that reminds me...Z1 is horrible to 100% >.> I hated doing it.

Z2 100% is definately in my RunPlan, but I can't do sh!t till I get my cable. >.< (I NEED IT NAO! >.<)
Z4 100% isn't much of a hassle, I can fit it seemlessly in with the route I have in mind...
(the only thing it changes is that I get more EX skills, and some stages are harder)
Z1 100%...*shudder* maybe If and when I'm done with the runs I like >.>

about ranks, I personally would love to see a SS 100point run...but...how possible is that?
(In my mind I only see this happening on Ultimate mode(Z1) New Game Plus(Z2) and a combination of those (Z3))

btw, X7 100% = All reploids rescued, All items (X Parts, Sub/W-/EXTanks, LifeUps)?

-Elpis

Enhasa

2008-09-17 03:33:33 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote from andrewg:

A quick change maybe?

Super Mario World - low% = no yoshi, no powerups, and no switch palaces.

I mean, I guess in a low% run, palace switches could be used, but I don't think the run should be accepted if a runner uses them. I'm not really sure if that should be included actually.

Do switch palaces even matter? Please refresh my memory, what route does a low% use? (I know it's not 11-exit but I forget what it is.) Would allowing switch palaces change that?

Quote from petrie911:

Well, that went over a lot better than I thought it would.

I have a really high opinion of you in general. Or maybe it's just Hypnotoad!

Someone tell me the best way to handle or phrase MZM and I'll change it. I have zero experience when it comes to MZM low%, although I do know the game.

MatrixTN

2008-09-17 06:08:40 pm

You got a deletion wish?

Quote from Enhasa:

Quote from andrewg:

Super Mario World - low% = no yoshi, no powerups, and no switch palaces.

I mean, I guess in a low% run, palace switches could be used, but I don't think the run should be accepted if a runner uses them. I'm not really sure if that should be included actually.

Do switch palaces even matter? Please refresh my memory, what route does a low% use? (I know it's not 11-exit but I forget what it is.) Would allowing switch palaces change that?

Switch palaces count towards the exit count and they help you in some levels (not using them would make things harder and the 11-exit runs don't use them already). I would assume that low would be min. exits since that's the only thing the game tracks, and it's already the same as any% by that token. Andrew, if you can beat it without powerups/Yoshi AND not hitting additional stages, I would see that as a possibility.

As for MZM, I think the description is fine, though it probably does need a rephrase.

[quote="Enhasa"]
[quote="andrewg"]Super Mario World - low% = no yoshi, no powerups, and no [b]switch palaces[/b].

I mean, I guess in a low% run, palace switches could be used, but I don't think the run should be accepted if a runner uses them. I'm not really sure if that should be included actually.
[/quote]
Do switch palaces even matter? Please refresh my memory, what route does a low% use? (I know it's not 11-exit but I forget what it is.) Would allowing switch palaces change that?
[/quote]
Switch palaces count towards the exit count and they help you in some levels (not using them would make things harder and the 11-exit runs don't use them already).  I would assume that low would be min. exits since that's the only thing the game tracks, and it's already the same as any% by that token.  Andrew, if you can beat it without powerups/Yoshi AND not hitting additional stages, I would see that as a possibility.

As for MZM, I think the description is fine, though it probably does need a rephrase.

soteos

Edit history:

soteos: 2008-09-17 07:01:25 pm

2008-09-17 06:52:03 pm

Switch palaces would take more time. They'd only help if you can't replicate the tricks in jimsfriend's small run. I think it would technically be a 'small' run instead of a low% run because the goal isn't to get the lowest amount of exits possible.
At any rate, I think switchs are more of something you activate than something you use to powerup, so they're not antithetical to a small run.

Enhasa

2008-09-17 08:40:09 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yeah actually, you guys are right. If 100% means all exits, low% would mean 11 exits, so no cigar. I've seen jimsfriend's run and it's honestly better than any SMW run we officially have list at SDA.

I agree that 1) they don't go against the ideals of a small run, and since 2) they're not helpful anyway, definitely no reason they would be excluded. MatrixTN, you can't beat it small/no Yoshi 11 exits because one of the star world levels requires either Yoshi or flight.

soteos

2008-09-17 09:06:08 pm

Quote from Enhasa:

MatrixTN, you can't beat it small/no Yoshi 11 exits because one of the star world levels requires either Yoshi or flight.

Actually, the first star world requires using a mushroom to spin through the blocks. Tongue

For MZM low%, I’m confused. Is it the lowest percentage from the final in-game screen, or lowest percentage in terms of ammo? I think it should be defined by the final screen, and whichever items are acquired to keep it low% are up to the runner.

Emptyeye

2008-09-17 09:06:57 pm

Talk to the Hand

I r typo cat. Typo r serious business.

In the 100% section, you for some reason have Final Fantasy I's Low % definition.

Enhasa

2008-09-17 09:52:55 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

LOL soteos, or that.

About MZM, I agree with what you just said, but somebody tell me what we should do with the current run (if anything) and what we should say on the page.

Emptyeye, I'll need visual confirmation of typo cat in the form of an adorable picture, or else he doesn't exist.

Manocheese

2008-09-17 11:28:29 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Here's a future one:

Rayman 2: The Great Escape (N64, DS, DC)
100%: All Lums, all cages
The game defines 100% as all Lums, but getting all the cages raises your maximum health (like Heart Pieces in Zelda). I didn't include PS and PC because I'm not really sure about those versions.

andrewg

2008-09-18 12:37:34 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

wait, so can I submit a smw small run then still? I feel it should be listed as a new category. I would find it pretty aggrevating if SDA would not accept that type of run, I would consider it a low% still. Because it's low% as far as items go, similar to contra's low% in a sense.

mikwuyma

2008-09-18 01:14:27 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I have no problems with a small run being low%. It's not like we need follow in-game 100% or low% definitions for every game, or else someone would have to collect every single voice sample for a Valkyrie Profile 100% run. Cheesy

xXIkuto

2008-09-18 02:16:36 pm

I'd just like to note that on DMC4 it's literally impossible to get all skills by the end of a single playthrough, even if you S ranked every aspect of every mission along the way. It's the same with buying all items from the shop in a playthrough...impossible. So I'm not sure exactly how (if at all) you could describe 100% in DMC4. Maybe something with picking up all items during levels, beating all secret missions, and getting all the blue orb frags / blue orbs? The thing is I'm not sure if you can even afford buying all blue / purple orbs by the end of one playthrough either....damn dmc4's trade in system!

Carcinogen

2008-09-18 04:40:34 pm

Then probably just all the secret missions, S-Ranking fucking everything. Makes a little more sense.

KnifeRun

2008-09-18 05:28:09 pm

more keys then pablo escobar

s ranking doesnt make sense 4 low or 100%

Enhasa

2008-09-18 07:26:05 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Manocheese, if the game says the 100%, then unless there is a compelling reason otherwise (usually, that 100% takes too long), we'll go with that.

Quote from mikwuyma:

I have no problems with a small run being low%. It's not like we need follow in-game 100% or low% definitions for every game, or else someone would have to collect every single voice sample for a Valkyrie Profile 100% run. Cheesy

This is a great post. And LOL you pwned me there I guess, I forgot about voice collection.

I added SMW back, with no Yoshi or powerups. Switch palaces are ok because like soteos says, they aren't faster anyway.

Quote from KnifeRun:

s ranking doesnt make sense 4 low or 100%

I actually agree with this. If rank is just like difficulty, then we could have separate s-rank 100% and non s-rank 100% if we had to.

xXIkuto

2008-09-19 04:43:53 am

S-Rank isn't a difficulty, it's a reward for completing certain requirements in each mission.

(Ex, you collected a certain amount of orbs, got a certain amount of style points, and beat it in under the required s rank time. Also, with dmc4, taking no damage doubles the score (bigger chance of s rank with less requirements hit) and using items hurts your score (not using them helps it.) )

Linkinito

2008-09-19 02:26:03 pm

This is my avatar

For Ratchet & Clank games, I think 100% should be defined for all hidden bolts collected and/or all skill points earned (usually collecting all hidden bolts/objects is a skill point).

MatrixTN

2008-09-19 03:17:41 pm

You got a deletion wish?

I'm surprised that Nate didn't put this one on the list.

Metroid II
Low: 3 items (bomb, ice beam and an energy tank [you can't survive off the main one])

nate

2008-09-19 03:24:13 pm

i'm sorry to say it, but i don't know anything about metroid ii.

MatrixTN

2008-09-19 06:37:10 pm

You got a deletion wish?

Right, Radix ran that one. That and I'm surprised that carlmmii never actually ran it low (though he did plan the route nicely).