Live A Live (SNES)

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2012-09-09 01:26:02 am

Omnigamer: 2012-09-07 11:49:56 pm

Omnigamer: 2012-09-07 09:20:05 pm

Omnigamer: 2012-09-07 12:52:53 pm

2012-09-07 12:33:36 pm

All the things

I needed to make this thread so I can convince myself that this isn't just some fantasy project and I will actually start working on it eventually.

So. Live A Live. JP-only RPG, but I imagine a fair number of people have played the fan-translated version. The whole chapter system makes this game interesting from a speedrunning standpoint; several of them are very short and can probably be done reliably/quickly. The longer chapters may be a problem with luck manipulation unless some special tricks are found. So it sort of makes sense to arrange this in an IL sort of way, with the exception of the final chapter. Rane also brought up the idea of splitting the Ninja chapter into 0-kills/any-kills/100-kills categories, which would also probably be fun. SS may be a bit iffy at this point for feasibility, but segmented would definitely work.

It's been many years since I last completed the game, so there's a lot that I don't quite remember. I'll be playing through the (translated) version again soon as a refresher and general-purpose routing run. I do own the SFC cart, so at some point in the future I will be able to actually do runs. Some thoughts on things that could potentially help for speedrunning:

-Cola. I don't recall exactly how much damage it does, but going out of the way to get a Cola drop from the King Mammoth in the Prehistoric chapter can possibly be a way to cheese through the Final chapter. The problem is still being strong enough to actually defest the King Mammoth... may or may not be worth it. This also goes for other optional items, such as the Scale in the Ninja chapter, Rock in Prehistoric, etc.
-Grinding strategies. Sadly, grinding will almost certainly be a part of the run due to how much of an impact levels have in terms of your stats and skills. Since there's no resource other than HP, having powerful skills is a huge benefit since you can spam them over and over with impunity. There's a good Experience Guide on GFAQs that describes how it works, so it's possible to find some good grinding spots in the chapters that matter.
-Any sort of RNG/AI exploitation. Probably not feasible, but at least worth investigating. I have a feeling that the AIs are very simply written based on movement patterns, so that's more likely. The RNG itself likely uses some frame-based seeding, which would be difficult to make use of in most situations. Even so, it wouldn't be the first time a game has done something silly with RNG values, so I'll take a look at it.

That's all I have to add for now. Like I said, it's been a long while since I've played it, but it's a unique enough game that I think it deserves some attention for speedrunning. I'd be interested in any strategies that others have thought up as well.

EDIT: Good resource: http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/lal/index.shtml

EDIT2: Playing it through now just to get a feel for things.

Modern Day: The general strategy here seems to be to start with the old guy, get both of his techs, and just wreck with them. I don't feel like most of the other moves are useful, but maybe learning some of the counters will do well (Ogre Hold, Arm Lock, or Cross-Heel Lock). The other fighters just come down to knowing their ranges, but Tsuda and Abise-geri just destroy all of them.

Old West: This is something of an odd situation. A couple ways to handle this:
1. Just rush through all the bells by talking to the bartender. This is pretty suicidal, but there may be some way to make it work.
2. Pick up some items and then rush through the bells. The best items are dynamite and molotov cocktails, along with cigars and tequila/bourbon for healing.
3. Pick up all items and assign them to people to limit the number of enemies in the final battle. This is probably the safest, but trades off time to collect all the necessary items and then assign them out. Only 11 items need to be picked up for this, assuming no healing items are needed.

At this point I'm leaning towards the third one, since you skip having to fight a bunch of (or all) the enemies. Some mixes can be found there too, depending on the time tradeoff for going out of the way to pick up the extra items as opposed to just killing the enemies that it would remove. Either way, some concise memorization for the menus will really shine here.

Sci-Fi: Ugh. So much text. Some small optimizations to be made with moving from place to place, but this will be a terribly boring section. The battle against the boss though has plenty of room for optimization, particularly with some decent strats. I was able to kill it once with a double mazer cannon, but I'm not sure how. It will counter mazer cannon every time with its full heal and I haven't been able to reproduce it. But if you can make it such that it is guaranteed not to counter for one turn, then you can two-hit it. Otherwise, you can use spin dive to move it around the map and away from the healing units. Also, it is very important to note the speed of your attacks. Mind Hack and Research are especially important, because you can often get off 5-6 in a row before anything else gains an action. This is the backup way to beat it; if you can take out four of the healers you can push it into a corner and it won't be able to counter you. Another possibility is using its counterattack that changes the field to electric and having that take out the healers. There's a lot of ways to approach this, but it has the possibility of being a very long and drawn-out fight. Another thing to investigate is the duration of buffs/debuffs... they most definitely aren't permanent, but if they last long enough you can unload some major damage. This goes for all chapters, since debuff attacks are everywhere.

Kung-Fu: This chapter was also much longer than I remembered, but it's still pretty simple. The fastest and best decision is probably to only train Yuan (skinny kid) since he appears in the middle and also gets some very considerable stats and skills as he levels up. Most of the fights in this chapter are a joke, although it will help to memorize which people give the best healing items/equipment. Most of the techniques are pretty solid, but in a speedrun setting only two or three are necessary. A lot of battles inside can be skipped, but in some cases it may be more helpful to go through them anyway so the pupil can level up and take out the boss faster. Also on that note, the attack items you can pick up from the pots do wonders against him. Definitely look into it a bit more.

Thread title:

I needed to make this thread so I can convince myself that this isn't just some fantasy project and I will actually start working on it eventually.

So. Live A Live. JP-only RPG, but I imagine a fair number of people have played the fan-translated version. The whole chapter system makes this game interesting from a speedrunning standpoint; several of them are very short and can probably be done reliably/quickly. The longer chapters may be a problem with luck manipulation unless some special tricks are found. So it sort of makes sense to arrange this in an IL sort of way, with the exception of the final chapter. Rane also brought up the idea of splitting the Ninja chapter into 0-kills/any-kills/100-kills categories, which would also probably be fun. SS may be a bit iffy at this point for feasibility, but segmented would definitely work.

It's been many years since I last completed the game, so there's a lot that I don't quite remember. I'll be playing through the (translated) version again soon as a refresher and general-purpose routing run. I do own the SFC cart, so at some point in the future I will be able to actually do runs. Some thoughts on things that could potentially help for speedrunning:

-Cola. I don't recall exactly how much damage it does, but going out of the way to get a Cola drop from the King Mammoth in the Prehistoric chapter can possibly be a way to cheese through the Final chapter. The problem is still being strong enough to actually defest the King Mammoth... may or may not be worth it. This also goes for other optional items, such as the Scale in the Ninja chapter, Rock in Prehistoric, etc.
-Grinding strategies. Sadly, grinding will almost certainly be a part of the run due to how much of an impact levels have in terms of your stats and skills. Since there's no resource other than HP, having powerful skills is a huge benefit since you can spam them over and over with impunity. There's a good [url=http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/562650-live-a-live/faqs/16202]Experience Guide[/url] on GFAQs that describes how it works, so it's possible to find some good grinding spots in the chapters that matter.
-Any sort of RNG/AI exploitation. Probably not feasible, but at least worth investigating. I have a feeling that the AIs are very simply written based on movement patterns, so that's more likely. The RNG itself likely uses some frame-based seeding, which would be difficult to make use of in most situations. Even so, it wouldn't be the first time a game has done something silly with RNG values, so I'll take a look at it.

That's all I have to add for now. Like I said, it's been a long while since I've played it, but it's a unique enough game that I think it deserves some attention for speedrunning. I'd be interested in any strategies that others have thought up as well.

EDIT: Good resource: http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/lal/index.shtml

EDIT2: Playing it through now just to get a feel for things.

Modern Day: The general strategy here seems to be to start with the old guy, get both of his techs, and just wreck with them. I don't feel like most of the other moves are useful, but maybe learning some of the counters will do well (Ogre Hold, Arm Lock, or Cross-Heel Lock). The other fighters just come down to knowing their ranges, but Tsuda and Abise-geri just destroy all of them.

Old West: This is something of an odd situation. A couple ways to handle this:
1. Just rush through all the bells by talking to the bartender. This is pretty suicidal, but there may be some way to make it work.
2. Pick up some items and then rush through the bells. The best items are dynamite and molotov cocktails, along with cigars and tequila/bourbon for healing.
3. Pick up all items and assign them to people to limit the number of enemies in the final battle. This is probably the safest, but trades off time to collect all the necessary items and then assign them out. Only 11 items need to be picked up for this, assuming no healing items are needed.

At this point I'm leaning towards the third one, since you skip having to fight a bunch of (or all) the enemies. Some mixes can be found there too, depending on the time tradeoff for going out of the way to pick up the extra items as opposed to just killing the enemies that it would remove. Either way, some concise memorization for the menus will really shine here.

Sci-Fi: Ugh. So much text. Some small optimizations to be made with moving from place to place, but this will be a terribly boring section. The battle against the boss though has plenty of room for optimization, particularly with some decent strats. I was able to kill it once with a double mazer cannon, but I'm not sure how. It will counter mazer cannon every time with its full heal and I haven't been able to reproduce it. But if you can make it such that it is guaranteed not to counter for one turn, then you can two-hit it. Otherwise, you can use spin dive to move it around the map and away from the healing units. Also, it is very important to note the speed of your attacks. Mind Hack and Research are especially important, because you can often get off 5-6 in a row before anything else gains an action. This is the backup way to beat it; if you can take out four of the healers you can push it into a corner and it won't be able to counter you. Another possibility is using its counterattack that changes the field to electric and having that take out the healers. There's a lot of ways to approach this, but it has the possibility of being a very long and drawn-out fight. Another thing to investigate is the duration of buffs/debuffs... they most definitely aren't permanent, but if they last long enough you can unload some major damage. This goes for all chapters, since debuff attacks are everywhere.

Kung-Fu: This chapter was also much longer than I remembered, but it's still pretty simple. The fastest and best decision is probably to only train Yuan (skinny kid) since he appears in the middle and also gets some very considerable stats and skills as he levels up. Most of the fights in this chapter are a joke, although it will help to memorize which people give the best healing items/equipment. Most of the techniques are pretty solid, but in a speedrun setting only two or three are necessary. A lot of battles inside can be skipped, but in some cases it may be more helpful to go through them anyway so the pupil can level up and take out the boss faster. Also on that note, the attack items you can pick up from the pots do wonders against him. Definitely look into it a bit more.

Indextic

2012-09-12 08:12:10 am

i've never beaten this game but it's one of the most fun RPGs i've ever played, just wanted to show support for this!!

drakonsan

2012-09-12 09:44:38 am

I've played the Aeon translation and it's a very fun game.
While cola and rock are amazing, the time it takes to get them will probably prohibit their collection.
My choices for the final chapter would probably be Yun, Sundown, Oboro, and Cube. Since you're thinking about segments/IL, how will that impact the final chapter? Can you 100% the previous segments and then count the final chapter time separate? If you can, then I'd stash as many all max heal items like IzanagiScrolls away and just focus on high offense characters like Sundown, Oboro, and Pogo.

Omnigamer

2012-09-12 10:03:16 am

All the things

The way that SDA timing works for situations like this is that all time spent to set up for a chapter is included in the time as well. So I wouldn't be able to spend a ton of time in the previous chapters just buffing out the characters so that the final chapter goes smoothly.

As for the final characters, I will have to play around with it a bit. I was initially thinking Yuan, Cube, Masaru, and probably Oboro. If no Oboro, then Pogo since he will be one of the highest levels coming out of his chapter. I'll probably need to pick up at least one of the Aries equips, but again not sure which one would have the best time/difficulty tradeoff.

In any case, I still have to replay through the 3 longest chapters, so still plenty of experimenting and routing to come.

RaneofSOTN

Edit history:

RaneofSOTN: 2012-09-12 12:10:03 pm

2012-09-12 12:08:20 pm

I want off the ride....

Actually Omni, i talked to uyama about this a long time ago, since there is "no real timer" and each story is different. You can do each story for speed then re-do them for whatever you want to carry into the "final story". This is only untrue if you do SS runs, where there would be a lot more planning. Basically segmented is "beat each story as fast as possible" while SS is beat the whole game as fast as possible and is a completely DIFFERENT beast.

edit: if you aren't putting OBORO as your lead, your failing. He gets dash speed... just saying
OBORO XXXX YYYY ZZZZ and based on how this game's battle system works, having 4 members might not be the best idea anyway.

Omnigamer

2012-09-12 02:55:17 pm

All the things

I forgot he gets that extra boost. That reminds me, I should probably replay that chapter tonight.

As for what you're saying with with the individually timed stories, I can agree on that with the exception of the Final Chapter (non-Orsteid version). Since each chapter is a stand-alone, there's no carry-over buffs or anything like that. This is different for the Final Chapter, where you can just grind hard in the other chapters and trivialize it. So there are a few ways to set up the main categories here IMO:

-Pure SS. This is probably pretty unreasonable unless some surefire boss strats are found.
-Segmented complete. Timed from Chapter start -> end of Chapter save. This does not revisit chapters to buff out the characters for the Final Chapter, so strategies are geared toward completion + anything that would be beneficial to have in the Final Chapter.
-IL style. I think this is what you were getting at, where each chapter time is completely distinct. I'm fine with this other than the Final Chapter as mentioned above. I'll have to look into whether or not Orsteid's version of the Final Chapter carries over character stats/items, as that might cause some issues too.

I forgot he gets that extra boost. That reminds me, I should probably replay that chapter tonight.

As for what you're saying with with the individually timed stories, I can agree on that with the exception of the Final Chapter (non-Orsteid version). Since each chapter is a stand-alone, there's no carry-over buffs or anything like that. This is different for the Final Chapter, where you can just grind hard in the other chapters and trivialize it. So there are a few ways to set up the main categories here IMO:

-Pure SS. This is probably pretty unreasonable unless some surefire boss strats are found.
-Segmented complete. Timed from Chapter start -> end of Chapter save. This does not revisit chapters to buff out the characters for the Final Chapter, so strategies are geared toward completion + anything that would be beneficial to have in the Final Chapter.
-IL style. I think this is what you were getting at, where each chapter time is completely distinct. I'm fine with this other than the Final Chapter as mentioned above. I'll have to look into whether or not Orsteid's version of the Final Chapter carries over character stats/items, as that might cause some issues too.

RaneofSOTN

2012-09-12 05:08:51 pm

I want off the ride....

Anything you pickup in orsted's chapter does not carry into the final final chapter

Omnigamer

2012-09-12 06:56:00 pm

I meant on the boss (inverse?) refights. If you make your characters super powerful when you completed their respective chapters, will you have a harder time beating them?

drakonsan

2012-09-12 07:20:12 pm

OBORO-COLA? I'd drink it.

No, I don't think the power of the characters on the refights are tied to their (then) current strength.

RaneofSOTN

2012-09-12 09:58:55 pm

I want off the ride....

once you touch orsted's chapter you can't replay any of the previous files... honestly rebeating the chapters shouldnt' be too hard, the fights are basically the same, if you get them again at all in the final chapter or get enough equipment to do setups it shouldn't be too bad. but thats the thing they all have the equipment they last had, so touching someone briefly to do an equip in the final chapter might be something to think about.

Vandaeron

2013-05-22 04:33:28 pm

The best defense is invincibility.

Hey Omni, are you still thinking about running this? A couple weeks ago, I started looking into routing this myself, largely on a whim. I've been mostly focusing on the short chapters, getting a route fully established for them, to get myself primed for figuring out caveman, ninja, and mecha. (Though, the big "route" for mecha will largely be selecting world map routes that deliberately run into enemies, until I hit a level where the harder fights in the last fighting segment before you get Buriki Daioh are manageable, but I'm also unsure of whether Matsu can carry those fights regardless of your level, so that all remains to be seen.)

As for Sundown's chapter, I'd done a lot of work on trying to conquer that fight with no item collection or traps. At a point I had a good sequence that I was consistently winning with, but trying to reproduce that fight yesterday, I couldn't really get it just right. Probably should have written down that sequence while it was fresh (though I was mostly doing more and more improv the later the fight got.) Either way, I think if you can get two quick Molotovs and the slingshot, you can get two good traps off and have one molotov to throw in the fight, and that should speed it up and cut down on risk considerably. Whether getting more items produces more speed in completing the fight is up to whether testing the timing on different routes seems necessary, or if no items or minimalistic items feels right. I feel like once the fight is established to be easily finished, that'd be fine in my eyes. Last note here, just getting the liquor in the bar is probably enough to make the fight very easy to manage, but it won't make it quicker.

Wrestler chapter is fairly simple to set in stone. Start on the old fart, punch him in the face till he uses Tsuda (don't know what to do to force him to use it, seems like he'll either use that or his really crappy melee range skill without any real favor or determination,) but I wouldn't worry about his ranged move. Move on to Lt. Surge, fighting him will naturally force you to get both of his moves, then take Max Morgan and make sure you get German Suplex. The rest of the people don't matter. At the boss, he can pretty easily be taken down if you start out doing Battle Cry twice (making sure to stay at an indirect spot so he won't hit you,) then shifting such that you're on a tile to the right of him. Tsuda twice to get his stats down pretty well, then suplex suplex suplex. Cross Heel Hold will be important to stop him from using one of his moves that will ruin you, and German Suplex is there to paralyze him and also deal immense total damage.

Kung Fu is an incredibly easy chapter to get through. Get the Kirin Shoes in your house, but don't equip them. As far as I know, you still have to pick up all 3 students, so start by going to the Bamboo Forest, grab one Healing Plant on the way to getting Li, dodge the tigers (if you book it, one of the tigers will be right directly in the way, but you can squeeze by if you've taken an optimally low number of steps and not hit any walls. If it doesn't work out, just kill it.) Then go down to town, give the plant to Yuan's grandma, go down to the punks, and if you got the right placement, you can Lau Hu Zhi Wu all three of them for a one turn kill. Make sure you answer correctly, because meeting him further up where he begs to join takes more dialog boxes.

Sammo is easy, just answer right and you'll get him quickly. Head back, and train the crap out of Yuan, because he has the lowest HP and dies in the fewest amount of hits. I haven't tested it very hard, but from what I've seen... If I just Lao Hu Zhi Wu him every fight, he'll only LEARN Lao Hu Zhi Wu, until the later fights where he starts getting to hit back and I counter him, which makes him learn the move I countered with. So I think we get to control his moveset by which moves we use on him? If that ends up true, the only two optimal attacks to get him are Lao Hu Zhi Wu and Lion Hand. Anyway, after beating up the three idiots again, pick up the tiger gauntlet and clothes from the bottom two people in that town. I don't believe that the three +10 to a stat items make a significant enough change to be worth the fact you need to manually equip them. once you get Yuan in the final segment, give him optimum equipment to throw on the Kirin Shoes and tiger stuff.

Many of the fights in the final segment, even though they start out as chasers you can technically avoid, most of them aren't... really avoidable? It's okay though, because they give good EXP, and generally won't fight back until you get to the throwing guys and onward. The tigers can't fight back if you Lao Hu Zhi Wu them and don't stand in range of their crushing bite. The gauntlet of fights in the last room are pretty easy except the last dude, if you're not really smart with Lion Handing him into spots where you're indirect of his attacks, and lucky with getting the right Lion Hand knockbacks, you'll be in trouble. The boss is pretty easy if you use some of the attacking items found in the chapter.

As for the caveman chapter, I have that largely decided on how it'll play out already, but I haven't done it yet. In the first town segment, there are three combinations I want to make: Smoulder Spear (Knife + Stick,) Swish Whip (Leather Cord + Stick,) and Thick Chest Hair (Hide + Rock.) In the "wait until nightfall" segment, I want to level up a bunch, hopefully to where I get Boom Boom, the ranged jump kick + knockback skill. With that, I feel I can tackle all of the remaining fights in the chapter. As the wandering combiner, if possible, I want to make Gatsun Glove (Tough Hide + Stick) and Clack Case (Leather Cord + Horn.)

All I have thought out for the ninja chapter so far is how to tackle levels. I feel like going the no-kills route is the fastest (even compared to only killing the exact people necessary to bumrush to the end of the chapter,) but this one will require the most testing, and it's also the chapter I dread learning the most.

Last thing I'll bring up is that, in a speedrun setting, the RNG is far, FAR more predictable than you might expect. The first time I played this, I messed with save states a lot, mostly because it was a time when I was lazy about resetting and going through the menus when I'd die. What became immediately apparent right then, is that so long as the same circumstance led up to the fight you land in, that fight will always react the exact same, no matter how many times you reload state and try again. Thus, if the speedrun always takes the same route, the fights will always play out the exact same way, and we can formulate specific sequences of moves and placements to ensure everything goes according to plan.

I present this recording as evidence.

Hey Omni, are you still thinking about running this?  A couple weeks ago, I started looking into routing this myself, largely on a whim.  I've been mostly focusing on the short chapters, getting a route fully established for them, to get myself primed for figuring out caveman, ninja, and mecha.  (Though, the big "route" for mecha will largely be selecting world map routes that deliberately run into enemies, until I hit a level where the harder fights in the last fighting segment before you get Buriki Daioh are manageable, but I'm also unsure of whether Matsu can carry those fights regardless of your level, so that all remains to be seen.)

As for Sundown's chapter, I'd done a lot of work on trying to conquer that fight with no item collection or traps.  At a point I had a good sequence that I was consistently winning with, but trying to reproduce that fight yesterday, I couldn't really get it just right.  Probably should have written down that sequence while it was fresh (though I was mostly doing more and more improv the later the fight got.)  Either way, I think if you can get two quick Molotovs and the slingshot, you can get two good traps off and have one molotov to throw in the fight, and that should speed it up and cut down on risk considerably.  Whether getting more items produces more speed in completing the fight is up to whether testing the timing on different routes seems necessary, or if no items or minimalistic items feels right.  I feel like once the fight is established to be easily finished, that'd be fine in my eyes.  Last note here, just getting the liquor in the bar is probably enough to make the fight very easy to manage, but it won't make it quicker.

Wrestler chapter is fairly simple to set in stone.  Start on the old fart, punch him in the face till he uses Tsuda (don't know what to do to force him to use it, seems like he'll either use that or his really crappy melee range skill without any real favor or determination,) but I wouldn't worry about his ranged move.  Move on to Lt. Surge, fighting him will naturally force you to get both of his moves, then take Max Morgan and make sure you get German Suplex.  The rest of the people don't matter.  At the boss, he can pretty easily be taken down if you start out doing Battle Cry twice (making sure to stay at an indirect spot so he won't hit you,) then shifting such that you're on a tile to the right of him.  Tsuda twice to get his stats down pretty well, then suplex suplex suplex.  Cross Heel Hold will be important to stop him from using one of his moves that will ruin you, and German Suplex is there to paralyze him and also deal immense total damage.

Kung Fu is an incredibly easy chapter to get through.  Get the Kirin Shoes in your house, but don't equip them.  As far as I know, you still have to pick up all 3 students, so start by going to the Bamboo Forest, grab one Healing Plant on the way to getting Li, dodge the tigers (if you book it, one of the tigers will be right directly in the way, but you can squeeze by if you've taken an optimally low number of steps and not hit any walls.  If it doesn't work out, just kill it.)  Then go down to town, give the plant to Yuan's grandma, go down to the punks, and if you got the right placement, you can Lau Hu Zhi Wu all three of them for a one turn kill.  Make sure you answer correctly, because meeting him further up where he begs to join takes more dialog boxes.

Sammo is easy, just answer right and you'll get him quickly.  Head back, and train the crap out of Yuan, because he has the lowest HP and dies in the fewest amount of hits.  I haven't tested it very hard, but from what I've seen...  If I just Lao Hu Zhi Wu him every fight, he'll only LEARN Lao Hu Zhi Wu, until the later fights where he starts getting to hit back and I counter him, which makes him learn the move I countered with.  So I think we get to control his moveset by which moves we use on him?  If that ends up true, the only two optimal attacks to get him are Lao Hu Zhi Wu and Lion Hand.  Anyway, after beating up the three idiots again, pick up the tiger gauntlet and clothes from the bottom two people in that town.  I don't believe that the three +10 to a stat items make a significant enough change to be worth the fact you need to manually equip them.  once you get Yuan in the final segment, give him optimum equipment to throw on the Kirin Shoes and tiger stuff.

Many of the fights in the final segment, even though they start out as chasers you can technically avoid, most of them aren't...  really avoidable?  It's okay though, because they give good EXP, and generally won't fight back until you get to the throwing guys and onward.  The tigers can't fight back if you Lao Hu Zhi Wu them and don't stand in range of their crushing bite.  The gauntlet of fights in the last room are pretty easy except the last dude, if you're not really smart with Lion Handing him into spots where you're indirect of his attacks, and lucky with getting the right Lion Hand knockbacks, you'll be in trouble.  The boss is pretty easy if you use some of the attacking items found in the chapter.

As for the caveman chapter, I have that largely decided on how it'll play out already, but I haven't done it yet.  In the first town segment, there are three combinations I want to make:  Smoulder Spear (Knife + Stick,) Swish Whip (Leather Cord + Stick,) and Thick Chest Hair (Hide + Rock.)  In the "wait until nightfall" segment, I want to level up a bunch, hopefully to where I get Boom Boom, the ranged jump kick + knockback skill.  With that, I feel I can tackle all of the remaining fights in the chapter.  As the wandering combiner, if possible, I want to make Gatsun Glove (Tough Hide + Stick) and Clack Case (Leather Cord + Horn.)

All I have thought out for the ninja chapter so far is how to tackle levels.  I feel like going the no-kills route is the fastest (even compared to only killing the exact people necessary to bumrush to the end of the chapter,) but this one will require the most testing, and it's also the chapter I dread learning the most.

Last thing I'll bring up is that, in a speedrun setting, the RNG is far, FAR more predictable than you might expect.  The first time I played this, I messed with save states a lot, mostly because it was a time when I was lazy about resetting and going through the menus when I'd die.  What became immediately apparent right then, is that so long as the same circumstance led up to the fight you land in, that fight will always react the exact same, no matter how many times you reload state and try again.  Thus, if the speedrun always takes the same route, the fights will always play out the exact same way, and we can formulate specific sequences of moves and placements to ensure everything goes according to plan.

I present [url=http://www.twitch.tv/vandaeron/b/406359685]this recording[/url] as evidence.

SeanCass

2013-07-25 09:40:09 am

:>

There is an IL for the Ninja chapter on youtube, I'd provide the link but youtube is banned for me sadly. I just searched "Live-a-Live RTA" I believe and found it. It's done by Japanese runner who had a pretty jumbled alphanumeric username. I'm not too aware of how well his routing and battle management is, but it looks like he's done a bit of work on the "attic" portions of the dojo. I dunno, worth a look if you're looking into the game.

Indextic

2013-09-02 07:26:02 pm

i'm gonna give this game a somewhat casual shot at speedrunning. i was wondering what people would think of splitting it up into two categories, beat the game and best ending. just beating the game would really mean you don't have to worry about the final part of the game, since you could just choose orsted and destroy (i haven't actually played this part but i assume it's faster than just going through the end). best ending would mean the entire game is spent just building characters up for the final parts of the game. it seems like a really cool way to produce two very different speedruns from one game. any thoughts on this?

Lilfut

Edit history:

Lilfut: 2014-03-30 12:34:02 pm

Lilfut: 2014-03-29 07:30:44 pm

Lilfut: 2014-03-29 07:29:54 pm

2014-03-29 07:29:46 pm

crossbow master race

I've been playing the hell out of this recently, and thought I'd give this a shot. Here's my potential plan for the final chapter, I haven't actually tried it out yet but it feels sound:

-Pick Oboro for the boosted run speed
-Pick up Pogo
-Pick up Akira
-Head for Masaru and pick him up if you can, but Teleport from every fight until you get warped to Akira's dungeon
-Complete the dungeon and get dropped outside the hut
-Start the Sundown chain
-Pick up Cube's battery and the Inheritor and complete the Inheritor's dungeon
-Do Pogo's dungeon and also continue the Sundown chain, do Masaru's dungeon if you got him before
-Go towards the Castle, do Oboro's dungeon, pick up Masaru if you didn't before, complete the Sundown chain, and pick up Cube
-Go back and do Cube's dungeon, also do Masaru's dungeon if you didn't before
-Head towards the final dungeon and do Sundown's dungeon
-Enter the final dungeon and finish the game

Again, I have yet to actually test this, but it feels like it should work. I'm also not sure what the final party should be - I'm feeling like Oboro, Masaru, Sundown, and Cube [with the weapon accessories stolen from Akira], but that's just a hunch. By the way, it's also best to pick Yuan as the Inheritor, he's not notably worse than Li in a speedrun scenario and he joins without a fight in the final chapter.

I've been playing the hell out of this recently, and thought I'd give this a shot. Here's my potential plan for the final chapter, I haven't actually tried it out yet but it feels sound:

-Pick Oboro for the boosted run speed
-Pick up Pogo
-Pick up Akira
-Head for Masaru and pick him up if you can, but Teleport from every fight until you get warped to Akira's dungeon
-Complete the dungeon and get dropped outside the hut
-Start the Sundown chain
-Pick up Cube's battery and the Inheritor and complete the Inheritor's dungeon
-Do Pogo's dungeon and also continue the Sundown chain, do Masaru's dungeon if you got him before
-Go towards the Castle, do Oboro's dungeon, pick up Masaru if you didn't before, complete the Sundown chain, and pick up Cube
-Go back and do Cube's dungeon, also do Masaru's dungeon if you didn't before
-Head towards the final dungeon and do Sundown's dungeon
-Enter the final dungeon and finish the game

Again, I have yet to actually test this, but it feels like it should work. I'm also not sure what the final party should be - I'm feeling like Oboro, Masaru, Sundown, and Cube [with the weapon accessories stolen from Akira], but that's just a hunch. By the way, it's also best to pick Yuan as the Inheritor, he's not notably worse than Li in a speedrun scenario and he joins without a fight in the final chapter.

Cabbit

2014-04-02 09:05:15 pm

Lilfut, I've been researching and routing the game as well. Would it be alright if we were to discuss it further on an IM service or Skype? Or any of you, for that matter?

RaneofSOTN

2014-04-03 08:02:39 am

I want off the ride....

i've been meaning to handle Oboro's chapter... i wanted to route out Any%, 100%, and low% (any kill, 100 kills, 0 kills) and do them. I was thinking (if i did this game) of running it with individual chapters... It would technically be legal, but that would mean I'd have to take the time to get maxed out files for running the final chapter.

I'd also want to route a "start ->end all stories" run but that might be brutal especially considering the final boss reduxes.

Cabbit

Edit history:

Cabbit: 2014-04-03 04:18:43 pm

Cabbit: 2014-04-03 04:18:07 pm

Cabbit: 2014-04-03 04:17:08 pm

2014-04-03 04:12:32 pm

As for the boss rush at the end of the game, the only characters that might have issues with their incarnation of Odio are Pogo and Oboro, namely because Pogo isn't accompanied by Gori, Bel, and Zaki, and Oboro isn't accompanied by Ryoma. I don't count Sundown because O. Dio is probably the weakest incarnation despite Akira fighting the Great Inko Statue while piloting Buriki Daioh. Every other character shouldn't have a problem, considering you did complete their chapter as they were.

Considering this, the best party to use in a speedrun is Oboro (finale protagonist, for his run speed, and to level him up), Pogo (to level him up), Masaru (for crippling bosses and fighting Ishtar specifically), and Sundown (because he does great damage overall). However, in the route I've come up with, I have Cube instead of Pogo because he cannot be petrified. Additionally, I play things safe by killing Headplucker and giving the Ariel Boots to Masaru, who is the most useful character in the party by far (and when you leave the abyss, your character ends up where they first started, and Oboro starts closest to the entrance of the Forbidden Land). If the Medicine Box cured petrification, then I wouldn't even bother with Cube, but that's not the case, sadly.

As for the boss rush at the end of the game, the only characters that might have issues with their incarnation of Odio are Pogo and Oboro, namely because Pogo isn't accompanied by Gori, Bel, and Zaki, and Oboro isn't accompanied by Ryoma. I don't count Sundown because O. Dio is probably the weakest incarnation despite Akira fighting the Great Inko Statue while piloting Buriki Daioh. Every other character shouldn't have a problem, considering you did complete their chapter as they were.

Considering this, the best party to use in a speedrun is Oboro (finale protagonist, for his run speed, and to level him up), Pogo (to level him up), Masaru (for crippling bosses and fighting Ishtar specifically), and Sundown (because he does great damage overall). However, in the route I've come up with, I have Cube instead of Pogo because he cannot be petrified. Additionally, I play things safe by killing Headplucker and giving the Ariel Boots to Masaru, who is the most useful character in the party by far (and when you leave the abyss, your character ends up where they first started, and Oboro starts closest to the entrance of the Forbidden Land). If the Medicine Box cured petrification, then I wouldn't even bother with Cube, but that's not the case, sadly.

karavalenge

2014-04-03 07:11:12 pm

... I was going to route and play this game without telling anyone because it's one of my favorite RPGs of all time x3

For Any% I have to wonder if it would be better to not get Pogo just so that you don't have to fight his boss by himself. My route uses Oboro, Cube, Masaru, and Sundown. (With a cameo by Akira)

And For 100%, would the definition of "100%" include all of the optional bosses? Because I've still never been able to beat that stupid Mammoth.

Here's my thoughts on categories:

Low% - Finish the game in any ending.
Any% - Finish the game without a bad ending.
Best Ending% - Finish the game with the Seven Heroes ending.
100% - Finish the game with the Seven Heroes ending after collecting the five pieces of Ariel equipment, the KingFang (Soda doesn't always drop I don't believe. If you happen to get the Soda, GG.), the Muramasa, and the MerfolkScale. (That means fighting all of the optional bosses)

Cabbit

Edit history:

Cabbit: 2014-04-03 07:34:23 pm

2014-04-03 07:32:23 pm

I'll post my route details here from a private thread:

Most of the chapters are pretty simple when broken down, and not much work is needed in planning for the endgame, especially if you don't use the characters that are required to solo their incarnation of Odio.

Pogo: Complete the twenty caveman room enough times to fashion the best equipment for Pogo, Gori, and Bel. Have Bel level up enough after the party is exiled to learn LaaLaa so O-D-O is defeated very quickly. The Basic Rock and Cola Bottle are optional (but the Basic Rock would be useful for the massive IQ boost, and doesn't require grinding).

Oboro: Just run through the chapter as fast as you can. Getting the Medicine Box is imperative because it's a instant single-target long-range heal for around 400 and buffs that characters stats as well.

Inheritor: Yuan is recommended to be chosen as the inheritor. Nothing really interesting here, just complete the chapter as fast as you can while grabbing healing items. If you're lucky, Dragon Clothes/Tiger Punch can drop.

Sundown: I... don't really know if it's faster to grab all the items and fight O. Dio without his gang, or only grab the Dynamite and Frying Pan (to equip on Sundown) and run out the clock with the bartender. I need to look into that.

Masaru: The only techniques you need are Moribe's Abise-Geri and Tsuda, Max's German Suplex, and Tula's Armlock and Cross Heel Hold. Every other move is useless. You can cheese out most competitors by constantly turning them with Abise-Geri, which also applies to Odie Oldbright.

Akira: Run through the chapter. Having items upgraded takes far too long, and the robot accessories aren't used in the route.

Cube: Since it's mostly a story chapter, just run through it.

Oersted: Like Sundown, I need to test this, but I know that if you don't pick any non-key items up, they get upgraded in the final chapter, which is handy.

Final: Here's where it gets interesting, and I've also only truly routed this so far.

---

Go with Oboro, as he retains his running speed from his chapter. Quickly pick up Pogo (and give the Basic Rock to Oboro if you got it) and run up Hero Mountain. Grab the Iron Box, pick up Yuan, and talk to Sundown (1) at Hash's cabin. Move down one map and talk to Sundown (2) on the cliff at the right side of the map. Leave Hero Mountain and talk to Sundown (3) at the signpost. Enter Lucretia and talk to Sundown (4) near the left residence. Enter the castle's armory and talk to Sundown (5) while grabbing all the Genji equipment and healing/consumable items here. Run to the prison and defeat Masaru, then pick him up. Enter the castle, head to the balcony, give the Iron Box to Cube, and pick him up (replace Pogo). Leave the balcony, enter the throne room, and talk to Sundown (6). Enter the left bedroom and talk to Sundown (7). Leave, enter the right bedroom, talk to Sundown (8), and grab the Parasite Sword (this is an amazing attack item). Leave the castle and pick up Sundown (replace Yuan). Now that your party is complete, it's time to prepare.

Masaru is going to be the star of this show, even though Oboro is the finale protagonist. Level up Masaru to 5-6, then defeat the protector of the Dungeon of Strength. Enter the dungeon, grab the Super Bandage, and put it on Masaru. Grab the Mermaid Bottom and leave the dungeon. Now, on the way of completing the other tasks before challenging the final boss, it's crucial that you run into Ishtar at least 3 times. Ishtar is a roaming boss that has around 1,600 HP, but also gives a fixed 100 exp, essentially guaranteeing a level up for each party member aside from Cube. Ishtar also only appears once your average party level is at a certain range, one I don't know of. At first, have Oboro prepare Strength of Ninja, have Cube pass, have Sundown pass, and have Masaru use German Suplex for high damage and a high chance for paralysis to proc. If it does, you can wail on Ishtar as much as you want, but have Masaru use German Suplex each turn to refresh the paralysis.

From the time leaving the Dungeon of Strength after getting the Super Bandage, recruit Akira but don't put him in your party. Quickly run through the Dungeon of Time and grab the .44 Magnum for Sundown. Run through the Forbidden Land, face Odio, but run from him. Fight the Headplucker by passing with everyone until it's Masaru's turn, then have him block the Headplucker from advancing, and letting him just use Wezan Blade over and over on Masaru so he lowers his own stats. Keep Masaru alive with the Medicine Box. Have Masaru use Tsuda to weaken the Headplucker more, while Oboro uses Strength of Ninja, Cube uses the Medicine Box on Masaru, and Sundown backs up Masaru with Shot Storm/Neo Shot Storm. Once the Headplucker is defeated, he'll drop the Ariel Boots, which you should put on Masaru so Pure Odio's Saint Alicia doesn't petrify him.

Now it's time to fight Odio. Sundown should have Neo Shot Storm and be at level 14-15. If you were really lucky with Ishtar encounters, he and Oboro will have their ultimate skills. Have Oboro push the left eye to the right with Shadow Mirror. Sit Cube directly in the center so he can counter with Anti-Field and be able to heal with the Medicine Box. If Sundown doesn't have Hurricane Shot, put him in the bottom right corner and have him use Neo Shot Storm on the mouth only. If he does, put him in the top right corner and have him use it repeatedly. Masaru should only be using Tsuda to weaken the face's stats. Once the face is defeated, Pure Odio appears.

This fight seems to be more about luck, but it's still manageable. Buff Masaru several times with the Medicine Box, and land Tsuda several times, hopefully lowering Pure Odio's SPD. Once under 1,000 HP from his around 2,000 max HP, and if you lowered his SPD enough, you can throw the Parasite Sword for 999 damage. However, if Masaru is doing around 240 damage per Tsuda, just keep doing that and save the Parasite Sword. This also applies if Sundown has Hurricane Shot and can execute it without being interrupted by Cancel Ray. Oboro's Bronze Leaf can actually put Pure Odio to sleep, interestingly enough.

As for the boss rush...

Pogo throws the Parasite Sword for an instant kill.
Oboro uses Shadow Mirror/Bronze Leaf.
Yuan uses fire/ice chops and heals/buffs with the Medicine Box.
Sundown uses Neo Shot Storm or Hurricane Shot.
Masaru uses Tsuda.
Akira in Buriki Daioh uses Babylon Kick twice.
Cube uses Maser Cannon while standing next to Mother Computer.

I'll post my route details here from a private thread:

Most of the chapters are pretty simple when broken down, and not much work is needed in planning for the endgame, especially if you don't use the characters that are required to solo their incarnation of Odio.

Pogo: Complete the twenty caveman room enough times to fashion the best equipment for Pogo, Gori, and Bel. Have Bel level up enough after the party is exiled to learn LaaLaa so O-D-O is defeated very quickly. The Basic Rock and Cola Bottle are optional (but the Basic Rock would be useful for the massive IQ boost, and doesn't require grinding).

Oboro: Just run through the chapter as fast as you can. Getting the Medicine Box is imperative because it's a instant single-target long-range heal for around 400 and buffs that characters stats as well.

Inheritor: Yuan is recommended to be chosen as the inheritor. Nothing really interesting here, just complete the chapter as fast as you can while grabbing healing items. If you're lucky, Dragon Clothes/Tiger Punch can drop.

Sundown: I... don't really know if it's faster to grab all the items and fight O. Dio without his gang, or only grab the Dynamite and Frying Pan (to equip on Sundown) and run out the clock with the bartender. I need to look into that.

Masaru: The only techniques you need are Moribe's Abise-Geri and Tsuda, Max's German Suplex, and Tula's Armlock and Cross Heel Hold. Every other move is useless. You can cheese out most competitors by constantly turning them with Abise-Geri, which also applies to Odie Oldbright.

Akira: Run through the chapter. Having items upgraded takes far too long, and the robot accessories aren't used in the route.

Cube: Since it's mostly a story chapter, just run through it.

Oersted: Like Sundown, I need to test this, but I know that if you don't pick any non-key items up, they get upgraded in the final chapter, which is handy.

Final: Here's where it gets interesting, and I've also only truly routed this so far.

---

Go with Oboro, as he retains his running speed from his chapter. Quickly pick up Pogo (and give the Basic Rock to Oboro if you got it) and run up Hero Mountain. Grab the Iron Box, pick up Yuan, and talk to Sundown (1) at Hash's cabin. Move down one map and talk to Sundown (2) on the cliff at the right side of the map. Leave Hero Mountain and talk to Sundown (3) at the signpost. Enter Lucretia and talk to Sundown (4) near the left residence. Enter the castle's armory and talk to Sundown (5) while grabbing all the Genji equipment and healing/consumable items here. Run to the prison and defeat Masaru, then pick him up. Enter the castle, head to the balcony, give the Iron Box to Cube, and pick him up (replace Pogo). Leave the balcony, enter the throne room, and talk to Sundown (6). Enter the left bedroom and talk to Sundown (7). Leave, enter the right bedroom, talk to Sundown (8), and grab the Parasite Sword (this is an amazing attack item). Leave the castle and pick up Sundown (replace Yuan). Now that your party is complete, it's time to prepare.

Masaru is going to be the star of this show, even though Oboro is the finale protagonist. Level up Masaru to 5-6, then defeat the protector of the Dungeon of Strength. Enter the dungeon, grab the Super Bandage, and put it on Masaru. Grab the Mermaid Bottom and leave the dungeon. Now, on the way of completing the other tasks before challenging the final boss, it's crucial that you run into Ishtar at least 3 times. Ishtar is a roaming boss that has around 1,600 HP, but also gives a fixed 100 exp, essentially guaranteeing a level up for each party member aside from Cube. Ishtar also only appears once your average party level is at a certain range, one I don't know of. At first, have Oboro prepare Strength of Ninja, have Cube pass, have Sundown pass, and have Masaru use German Suplex for high damage and a high chance for paralysis to proc. If it does, you can wail on Ishtar as much as you want, but have Masaru use German Suplex each turn to refresh the paralysis.

From the time leaving the Dungeon of Strength after getting the Super Bandage, recruit Akira but don't put him in your party. Quickly run through  the Dungeon of Time and grab the .44 Magnum for Sundown. Run through the Forbidden Land, face Odio, but run from him. Fight the Headplucker by passing with everyone until it's Masaru's turn, then have him block the Headplucker from advancing, and letting him just use Wezan Blade over and over on Masaru so he lowers his own stats. Keep Masaru alive with the Medicine Box. Have Masaru use Tsuda to weaken the Headplucker more, while Oboro uses Strength of Ninja, Cube uses the Medicine Box on Masaru, and Sundown backs up Masaru with Shot Storm/Neo Shot Storm. Once the Headplucker is defeated, he'll drop the Ariel Boots, which you should put on Masaru so Pure Odio's Saint Alicia doesn't petrify him.

Now it's time to fight Odio. Sundown should have Neo Shot Storm and be at level 14-15. If you were really lucky with Ishtar encounters, he and Oboro will have their ultimate skills. Have Oboro push the left eye to the right with Shadow Mirror. Sit Cube directly in the center so he can counter with Anti-Field and be able to heal with the Medicine Box. If Sundown doesn't have Hurricane Shot, put him in the bottom right corner and have him use Neo Shot Storm on the mouth only. If he does, put him in the top right corner and have him use it repeatedly. Masaru should only be using Tsuda to weaken the face's stats. Once the face is defeated, Pure Odio appears.

This fight seems to be more about luck, but it's still manageable. Buff Masaru several times with the Medicine Box, and land Tsuda several times, hopefully lowering Pure Odio's SPD. Once under 1,000 HP from his around 2,000 max HP, and if you lowered his SPD enough, you can throw the Parasite Sword for 999 damage. However, if Masaru is doing around 240 damage per Tsuda, just keep doing that and save the Parasite Sword. This also applies if Sundown has Hurricane Shot and can execute it without being interrupted by Cancel Ray. Oboro's Bronze Leaf can actually put Pure Odio to sleep, interestingly enough.

As for the boss rush...

Pogo throws the Parasite Sword for an instant kill.
Oboro uses Shadow Mirror/Bronze Leaf.
Yuan uses fire/ice chops and heals/buffs with the Medicine Box.
Sundown uses Neo Shot Storm or Hurricane Shot.
Masaru uses Tsuda.
Akira in Buriki Daioh uses Babylon Kick twice.
Cube uses Maser Cannon while standing next to Mother Computer.

cyghfer

2014-04-03 07:51:01 pm

i want to peak my head into this thread for one brief moment solely to say, that murder by a psycho is fantastic song

carry on ye obscure-game-speedfriends, pure of mind & pure of soul

Cabbit

Edit history:

Cabbit: 2014-04-07 06:49:37 pm

Cabbit: 2014-04-03 08:23:23 pm

2014-04-03 08:22:36 pm

As far as regular battle themes go, I'd have to say Knock You Down! and Difficult Battle are my favorites from this game. Megalomania and Pure Odio are great boss themes too. It's nice hearing the chapter battle themes of the protagonists when you fight them. Smiley

It's funny hearing Warm-A-Live when fighting the Voice Hearts too.

Cabbit

2014-04-07 07:30:51 pm

I apologize if I'm breaking a forum rule by double posting, but I couldn't seem to find any rule that forbids it.

Anyway, I've concluded that choosing Li Kuugo as the Xin Shan Quan inheritor is much faster than choosing Yuan Jou, even if you do have to fight her at the top of Hero Mountain in the Finale.

Li Kuugo's defining stat is Speed, or SP as shortened by the game. The inheritors learn several different attacks, and those attacks' damage are calculated by various stats. Squirrel Kick, as well as Li Kuugo's personal attacks ShuiNiaoJiao (super long-range kick with enough damage to resemble a mini version of XuanYaLianShanQuan) and SheXingQuan (similar to Squirrel Kick as they're both long range kicks and are used as counters against leg attacks, but ShuiNiaoJiao can't cause paralysis) are governed by the Speed stat, and can be further improved with the leg armor Kirin Shoes and accessory Panda. Li Kuugo's naturally high Speed, as well as those equipment pieces, make those attacks very powerful at that point, so it's possible to take on many enemies at range with ease.

As for Odi Wang Lee, all you need to do run to the bottom left corner, use ShuiNiaoJiao three times, then finish with XuanYaLianShanQuan. Odi Wang Lee's sprite is 3x3, so it's impossible to miss him as far as the attack's destination is concerned. As for the boss rush version of Odi Wang Lee, do the same thing except move to the bottom right corner and use ShuiNiaoJiao until he's defeated.

Be sure to grab the Martial Arts Tome, which grants +10 IQ, so you can give it to Oboro later.

I apologize if I'm breaking a forum rule by double posting, but I couldn't seem to find any rule that forbids it.

Anyway, I've concluded that choosing Li Kuugo as the Xin Shan Quan inheritor is [i]much[/i] faster than choosing Yuan Jou, even if you do have to fight her at the top of Hero Mountain in the Finale.

Li Kuugo's defining stat is Speed, or SP as shortened by the game. The inheritors learn several different attacks, and those attacks' damage are calculated by various stats. Squirrel Kick, as well as Li Kuugo's personal attacks ShuiNiaoJiao (super long-range kick with enough damage to resemble a mini version of XuanYaLianShanQuan) and SheXingQuan (similar to Squirrel Kick as they're both long range kicks and are used as counters against leg attacks, but ShuiNiaoJiao can't cause paralysis) are governed by the Speed stat, and can be further improved with the leg armor Kirin Shoes and accessory Panda. Li Kuugo's naturally high Speed, as well as those equipment pieces, make those attacks very powerful at that point, so it's possible to take on many enemies at range with ease.

As for Odi Wang Lee, all you need to do run to the bottom left corner, use ShuiNiaoJiao three times, then finish with XuanYaLianShanQuan. Odi Wang Lee's sprite is 3x3, so it's impossible to miss him as far as the attack's destination is concerned. As for the boss rush version of Odi Wang Lee, do the same thing except move to the bottom right corner and use ShuiNiaoJiao until he's defeated.

Be sure to grab the Martial Arts Tome, which grants +10 IQ, so you can give it to Oboro later.

Trysdyn

Edit history:

Trysdyn: 2015-10-19 09:56:34 pm

Trysdyn: 2015-09-15 09:29:40 pm

Trysdyn: 2015-09-15 09:29:27 pm

2015-09-15 09:24:32 pm

Sorry for the necro but between necroing this thread and starting another, I think this is the lesser of the two evils. I've (well me and my friend Digi, to give proper credit) put some legwork into routing the game SS, but have mostly given up because my life is too hectic to be able to commit to a 6 hour run at any given time. I figured I'd turn my thoughts over here for posterity. I'll clean my full notes up and put them... somewhere... soon. Here's my thoughts as the results of testing I've done over the past few months. Someone who knows the game should be able to turn these blurbs into proper routes.

Oboro: I've found it's safer and just as fast to rush straight to the Storehouse and grind on spirits there (without killing the mini-boss) until you get Shuriken Toss, then go free Ryoma. This feels slower, but you now have a tank, will have Strength of the Ninja before the troublesome fights, and can spam it for fast kills. Against the Eight Swords (which you now have to fight since Ryoma doesn't save you here), I use the Fuma and Fujin Scrolls for a fast kill. Most fights, it's all Ryoma getting in the enemy's face and using Polaris Single-Blade, and Oboro using Strength of the Ninja for massive hits.

Sundown: Taking all 15 goons is the way to go. All you should do is go to the Sherrif's Office and get the dynamite and the peacemaker. Give the gun to Sundown. During the battle throw the dynamite onto the field. You'll have to choose between hitting the goons on the right or the bottom; can't hit both. Definitely don't fire-field yourself. Once you do this, you can squat in the bottom two tiles out of Winchester range and plink away.

Masaru: I found the exact same as Cabbit above. I actually only get Abise-Geri and Tsuda and rush through this, as I don't plan to use Masaru as anything but a meat shield, turn-spammer, and hail mary Tsuda spammer in the finale.

Akira: This chapter sucks and is useless. Rush through. The big time save is once you're told the magic ritual for activating Daioh, you don't have to do it. Just being told the ritual trips the trigger to continue the plot. Specifically there's two triggers: Be told the Daioh ritual, and get slapped by Taeko in the bathroom scene. Only when both are done will the kidnapping scene happen. The fastest route through the facility is to have a Napalm Bomb, go straight to Crusaders, and Napalm Bomb them. If you do this, there's no real fighting to be done in this chapter. Also remember to punch the Watanabe mech in the back with Matsu for a one-hit KO.

Pogo: I actually haven't routed this as it's my least favorite chapter, sorry. Getting Bel to LaaLaa to trivialize the ODO fight is the strat to go for though.

Cube: There's some small trigger shotcuts to take here, but nothing huge. You can skip Kato's hide and seek game by going the opposite way of the way he tells you to in the start. Pick up a second coffee when youi're waiting for Kato to burst out of the break room mid-run, to give it to the Corporal at the end. When you go to Sickbay to find Kirk's body is gone, the music change trips the next event in the story, you don't even have to enter de-contamination to continue. Once you get the password to Kirk's room, you don't have to try using it, just go to Cryogenics to continue.

Kung Fu: I'm in the school of thought that Li is better than Yuan. It's a two-shot fight in the finale, and Li feels like her stats are better suited to her skills. Her presence in the finale also allows for a safety strat of using her ultimate technique against Pure Odio as it's faster than Canceller. (This is actually how I beat the game blind...)

Oersted: Stone! Several of the door bosses are weak to it and it's an instant win. Go get the Algos Eye from the Forbidden Land. Yeah, it won't be usable in the finale now, but I have a plan for that. Straybow can be stoned too. Your only real troublesome fights here are the Demon King himself (Hope Hash doesn't die, and the Demon King level-downs himself here), and the early door bosses where you spin them and pray RNG is on your side.

Finale: TASes and theorycrafting support using Hurricane Shot. I cannot get this working. I propose an alternate method: Bring Li, get her to 16. She'll have an instant semi-powerful attack and a full HP self heal and level-up. The battle with Odio will be slow but if you stay in one of the top corners it is 100% safe. This is my RTA safety route while I work on getting around Sundown's Hurricane Shot issues.

Getting to 16 is done by taking Sundown, going into his dungeon, and getting a second Algos Eye. Once that's in hand, stone Ishtars on Li so she gets all the EXP. Ishtars begin spawning in the Forbidden Land when your total party level equals 32. The party I take is Li, Oboro, Sundown, Masaru. Li for ultimate spam, Oboro for move speed, Sundown to get the Eye, Masaru to get a few levels on him to make his re-fight easier.

Boss Rush: Using the "Get Li to 16" strat, the boss rush can actually be a little scary. Pogo needs to Boom Boom the dino and spam knockback, Masaru needs to Medicine Box himself then use Parasite Sword for a OHKO (without the box it may not OHKO). Oboro needs to be at least level 10, or the Frogsnake is nigh unkillable due to poison field and how each tile stacks healing on him.

A Note on timing: Battle timing is strange. The game keeps an internal timer that decides when turns come up and abilities fire. It all works as you'd expect except when a hero finishes an ability, the game adds a ton of units to the timer immediately. Most of the time this is enough to give the enemy a turn, regardless of your speed. This is what I mean when I say during the Odio fight that every time you act, Odio gets a turn. Regardless of your speed, time progresses a ton when one of your heroes acts. You can actually glitch enemies out of getting turns by overflowing the timer, but it's a TAS strat at best. You wait until the post-action "Bump" to the timer would overflow it, then use an instant action. The timer will overflow and the enemy won't act that turn.

[edit: I know I posted this weeks ago but after a lot of routing work I found a LOT of this was wrong and I felt compelled to fix the misinformation]

Sorry for the necro but between necroing this thread and starting another, I think this is the lesser of the two evils. I've (well me and my friend Digi, to give proper credit) put some legwork into routing the game SS, but have mostly given up because my life is too hectic to be able to commit to a 6 hour run at any given time. I figured I'd turn my thoughts over here for posterity. I'll clean my full notes up and put them... somewhere... soon. Here's my thoughts as the results of testing I've done over the past few months. Someone who knows the game should be able to turn these blurbs into proper routes.

Oboro: I've found it's safer and just as fast to rush straight to the Storehouse and grind on spirits there (without killing the mini-boss) until you get Shuriken Toss, then go free Ryoma. This feels slower, but you now have a tank, will have Strength of the Ninja before the troublesome fights, and can spam it for fast kills. Against the Eight Swords (which you now have to fight since Ryoma doesn't save you here), I use the Fuma and Fujin Scrolls for a fast kill. Most fights, it's all Ryoma getting in the enemy's face and using Polaris Single-Blade, and Oboro using Strength of the Ninja for massive hits.

Sundown: Taking all 15 goons is the way to go. All you should do is go to the Sherrif's Office and get the dynamite and the peacemaker. Give the gun to Sundown. During the battle throw the dynamite onto the field. You'll have to choose between hitting the goons on the right or the bottom; can't hit both. Definitely don't fire-field yourself. Once you do this, you can squat in the bottom two tiles out of Winchester range and plink away.

Masaru: I found the exact same as Cabbit above. I actually only get Abise-Geri and Tsuda and rush through this, as I don't plan to use Masaru as anything but a meat shield, turn-spammer, and hail mary Tsuda spammer in the finale.

Akira: This chapter sucks and is useless. Rush through. The big time save is once you're told the magic ritual for activating Daioh, you don't have to do it. Just being told the ritual trips the trigger to continue the plot. Specifically there's two triggers: Be told the Daioh ritual, and get slapped by Taeko in the bathroom scene. Only when both are done will the kidnapping scene happen. The fastest route through the facility is to have a Napalm Bomb, go straight to Crusaders, and Napalm Bomb them. If you do this, there's no real fighting to be done in this chapter. Also remember to punch the Watanabe mech in the back with Matsu for a one-hit KO.

Pogo: I actually haven't routed this as it's my least favorite chapter, sorry. Getting Bel to LaaLaa to trivialize the ODO fight is the strat to go for though.

Cube: There's some small trigger shotcuts to take here, but nothing huge. You can skip Kato's hide and seek game by going the opposite way of the way he tells you to in the start. Pick up a second coffee when youi're waiting for Kato to burst out of the break room mid-run, to give it to the Corporal at the end. When you go to Sickbay to find Kirk's body is gone, the music change trips the next event in the story, you don't even have to enter de-contamination to continue. Once you get the password to Kirk's room, you don't have to try using it, just go to Cryogenics to continue.

Kung Fu: I'm in the school of thought that Li is better than Yuan. It's a two-shot fight in the finale, and Li feels like her stats are better suited to her skills. Her presence in the finale also allows for a safety strat of using her ultimate technique against Pure Odio as it's faster than Canceller. (This is actually how I beat the game blind...)

Oersted: Stone! Several of the door bosses are weak to it and it's an instant win. Go get the Algos Eye from the Forbidden Land. Yeah, it won't be usable in the finale now, but I have a plan for that. Straybow can be stoned too. Your only real troublesome fights here are the Demon King himself (Hope Hash doesn't die, and the Demon King level-downs himself here), and the early door bosses where you spin them and pray RNG is on your side.

Finale: TASes and theorycrafting support using Hurricane Shot. I cannot get this working. I propose an alternate method: Bring Li, get her to 16. She'll have an instant semi-powerful attack and a full HP self heal and level-up. The battle with Odio will be slow but if you stay in one of the top corners it is 100% safe. This is my RTA safety route while I work on getting around Sundown's Hurricane Shot issues.

Getting to 16 is done by taking Sundown, going into his dungeon, and getting a second Algos Eye. Once that's in hand, stone Ishtars on Li so she gets all the EXP. Ishtars begin spawning in the Forbidden Land when your total party level equals 32. The party I take is Li, Oboro, Sundown, Masaru. Li for ultimate spam, Oboro for move speed, Sundown to get the Eye, Masaru to get a few levels on him to make his re-fight easier.

Boss Rush: Using the "Get Li to 16" strat, the boss rush can actually be a little scary. Pogo needs to Boom Boom the dino and spam knockback, Masaru needs to Medicine Box himself then use Parasite Sword for a OHKO (without the box it may not OHKO). Oboro needs to be at least level 10, or the Frogsnake is nigh unkillable due to poison field and how each tile stacks healing on him.

A Note on timing: Battle timing is strange. The game keeps an internal timer that decides when turns come up and abilities fire. It all works as you'd expect except when a hero finishes an ability, the game adds a ton of units to the timer immediately. Most of the time this is enough to give the enemy a turn, regardless of your speed. This is what I mean when I say during the Odio fight that every time you act, Odio gets a turn. Regardless of your speed, time progresses a ton when one of your heroes acts. You can actually glitch enemies out of getting turns by overflowing the timer, but it's a TAS strat at best. You wait until the post-action "Bump" to the timer would overflow it, then use an instant action. The timer will overflow and the enemy won't act that turn.

[edit: I know I posted this weeks ago but after a lot of routing work I found a LOT of this was wrong and I felt compelled to fix the misinformation]

Trysdyn

Edit history:

Trysdyn: 2015-10-27 09:11:11 am

Trysdyn: 2015-10-27 09:03:37 am

Trysdyn: 2015-10-27 07:44:22 am

Trysdyn: 2015-10-27 07:32:57 am

Trysdyn: 2015-10-27 07:31:38 am

2015-10-27 07:30:06 am

I know I said I was giving up on the project and was going to share my notes but... something just sat wrong in my head. I ended up doing this anyway. Here's my single segment Any%/True End run.

I did it on emulator with AGTP's T+Eng 2.0 patch because I wanted a readable/accessible first run. Doing it in the original JP will save a LOT of time. Back of the envelope math says it could be up to 15-20 minutes. I also have a playlist of ILs that total up to about 20 minutes faster than this run on my YT channel. IL Sum of Best comes out to a bit over 1 hour slower than the TAS on nico. That hour is mainly Oboro's chapter (The TAS manipulates timing so the enemies rarely get a move; I couldn't do that in RTA), Akira's chapter (TAS-level evasion of roaming NPCs), and Cola Bottle abuse.

The SS run only has one major fail in it; I died to W-1 because he decided to turn around when I was moving to punch him with Matsu. I'd never seen that before; I'm 99% sure it's because I reorganized the party in a way I don't usually do. If Matsu's in the bottom slot this shouldn't happen! My death to Claustrophobia is a roll of the dice; I safety save and expect it to happen at least once.

Here's chapter comparisons between my ILs and the TAS...

Code:

Chapter	Time	 TAS Time	Diff
Oboro	00:35:53	00:19:05	00:16:48
Masaru	00:12:22	00:09:41	00:02:41
Sundown	00:26:18	00:22:46	00:03:32
Akira	00:49:17	00:36:58	00:12:19
Pogo	00:47:43	00:38:58	00:08:45
Li	00:43:41	00:32:02	00:11:39
Cube	00:44:10	00:38:59	00:05:11
Oersted	00:40:19	00:31:10	00:09:09
Finale	00:43:53	00:36:10	00:07:43
Total	05:43:36	04:25:49	01:17:47

I'm not an RPG runner, guys. I won't be going for improving this I don't think. I did this in hopes that a "real RPG runner" would pick up from this groundwork. I'm not sure where to go from here; I suppose run notes/route...

Here's a quick one-line summary of each chapter's strats. I was going to write this out after getting some sleep, but my head is buzzing and I want to get this down.

Oboro: Rush to the storehouse and grind to 6 on the ghosts (Don't attack the woman, she'll wreck you). Use Shuriken Storm on the guard in the jail and the lady in the bone pit to rescue Ryoma. Get 7 in the attic before Gennai and from there use Ryoma to tank so Oboro can spam Strength of the Ninja. Equipping the Medicine Box at the end ups Oboro's IQ and makes Strength hit even harder.

Sundown: Grab Dynamite and Peacemaker from the Sheriff's Office. Set no traps. Dynamite the field in the final fight. Mad Dog uses Jitterbug to clear the nearby goons, Sundown uses Piercing Shot.

Masaru: Get Tsuda and Abise-Geri and spam Abise-Geri to win. I tried to leave Tsuda behind, but you CANNOT hit Moribe with Abise-Geri without leveling him down anyway.

Pogo: Make a Buzzing Knife (Cord + Knife) to up Pogo's Atk. Carefully Manipulate Zaki 1 or he'll wreck you. Once banished grind Bel to 7 for Laa Laa and Pogo to at least 6 for Boom Boom. Boom Boom Zaki 2 and 3, use Laa Laa on Odiosaurus Rex.

Li: Use all your trainings on Li, focus on teaching her Lao and Squirrel Kick. Squirrel Kick will kill or stun most everything in the temple. Don't stand diagonal of the old man at the end of the gauntlet, or he'll stone you. For Ode, use a Fukei Feather picked up in the temple, then Xin Shan Lian Quan, then Squirrel Kick to win.

Akira: Don't craft anything. When Toei tells you how to get into Daioh, ignore it. The trigger is being told how, not trying; also getting slapped by Taeko is required. Facility is nasty; try to sneak past everything, it's faster/safer than fighting because you'll need 4-6 Taro Kicks to beat the 2x MIB packs. Napalm Bomb the Crusader pack, punch W-1. Daioh is Halogen Laser for trash and Babylon Kick for Odeo.

Cube: Nothing much to say, follow my route in the video exactly. The trick is knowing what triggers story continuation. OD-10, bait out electric field on the healing pods and Spin Drive to kick him to a place he can't heal, then Mind Hack until he's under 270HP then Maser.

Oersted: Ignore all combat until the Demon fight. Put Hash up top and Uranus on the bottom right. Hash should Death Trail, which will bait out a counter that LvDowns the demon. Heal Hash and Trail again. It should take 3 Trails (it took 4 in my run, hmmph). Pick up Hero Shield, Flame Armor, Unicorn Horn (x2), Solomon Bone, and Algos Eye. Equip all but the eye to give Oersted +50 IQ from gear. During the escape Algos guards until 4, then switch to Hammer Power (You get hammer at 3 but it has a 50+% miss rate). Use the eye to grind to 7 in the Forbidden Land, then Hammer Power the first 3 bosses, stone the 4th and Straybow. Safety save before doors 1 and 4; they can fail pretty easy. You should be 9 before attempting door #4.

Finale: My proudest chapter Smiley

Gather everyone, go to Sundown's dungeon, get only the Algos Eye and the 44. Load Sundown for bear for IQ (+90 should be doable). Go into Forbidden Land. If your total party level is below 32, fight only the 2 bulldozer packs. Use Li's squirrel kick and Sundown's Piercing shot to kill the master and breakdown. At 32 stone Ishtars. Have anyone you want leveling up to act, you'll get a level per actor per fight. Grind to Sundown=16 Oboro=10 Li=~13 Masaru=5 then go punch Odio. Odio is all Hurricane Shot for Phase 1, then all Neo Shot Storm for Phase 2.

Boss Rush: Cube uses Maser twice (you can heal between them if you want to be safe), Pogo should use Medicine Box to LvUp himself then spam Boom Boom to knock the dino back repeatedly, Masaru should LvUp himself then Parasite Sword for a OHKO, Akira should Babylon Kick twice for EZ Win, Sundown should make sure he's not going to get Gatling gunned then Neo Shot Storm twice, Li should Squirrel Kick into stun repeatedly, and Oboro should Blade of Wind three times.

I know I said I was giving up on the project and was going to share my notes but... something just sat wrong in my head. I ended up doing this anyway. Here's my single segment Any%/True End run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox4rJkZnc04

I did it on emulator with AGTP's T+Eng 2.0 patch because I wanted a readable/accessible first run. Doing it in the original JP will save a LOT of time. Back of the envelope math says it could be up to 15-20 minutes. I also have a playlist of ILs that total up to about 20 minutes faster than this run on my YT channel. IL Sum of Best comes out to a bit over 1 hour slower than the TAS on nico. That hour is mainly Oboro's chapter (The TAS manipulates timing so the enemies rarely get a move; I couldn't do that in RTA), Akira's chapter (TAS-level evasion of roaming NPCs), and Cola Bottle abuse.

The SS run only has one major fail in it; I died to W-1 because he decided to turn around when I was moving to punch him with Matsu. I'd never seen that before; I'm 99% sure it's because I reorganized the party in a way I don't usually do. If Matsu's in the bottom slot this shouldn't happen! My death to Claustrophobia is a roll of the dice; I safety save and expect it to happen at least once.

Here's chapter comparisons between my ILs and the TAS...

[code]Chapter	Time	 TAS Time	Diff
Oboro	00:35:53	00:19:05	00:16:48
Masaru	00:12:22	00:09:41	00:02:41
Sundown	00:26:18	00:22:46	00:03:32
Akira	00:49:17	00:36:58	00:12:19
Pogo	00:47:43	00:38:58	00:08:45
Li	00:43:41	00:32:02	00:11:39
Cube	00:44:10	00:38:59	00:05:11
Oersted	00:40:19	00:31:10	00:09:09
Finale	00:43:53	00:36:10	00:07:43
Total	05:43:36	04:25:49	01:17:47[/code]

I'm not an RPG runner, guys. I won't be going for improving this I don't think. I did this in hopes that a "real RPG runner" would pick up from this groundwork. I'm not sure where to go from here; I suppose run notes/route...

Here's a quick one-line summary of each chapter's strats. I was going to write this out after getting some sleep, but my head is buzzing and I want to get this down.

Oboro: Rush to the storehouse and grind to 6 on the ghosts (Don't attack the woman, she'll wreck you). Use Shuriken Storm on the guard in the jail and the lady in the bone pit to rescue Ryoma. Get 7 in the attic before Gennai and from there use Ryoma to tank so Oboro can spam Strength of the Ninja. Equipping the Medicine Box at the end ups Oboro's IQ and makes Strength hit even harder.

Sundown: Grab Dynamite and Peacemaker from the Sheriff's Office. Set no traps. Dynamite the field in the final fight. Mad Dog uses Jitterbug to clear the nearby goons, Sundown uses Piercing Shot.

Masaru: Get Tsuda and Abise-Geri and spam Abise-Geri to win. I tried to leave Tsuda behind, but you CANNOT hit Moribe with Abise-Geri without leveling him down anyway.

Pogo: Make a Buzzing Knife (Cord + Knife) to up Pogo's Atk. Carefully Manipulate Zaki 1 or he'll wreck you. Once banished grind Bel to 7 for Laa Laa and Pogo to at least 6 for Boom Boom. Boom Boom Zaki 2 and 3, use Laa Laa on Odiosaurus Rex.

Li: Use all your trainings on Li, focus on teaching her Lao and Squirrel Kick. Squirrel Kick will kill or stun most everything in the temple. Don't stand diagonal of the old man at the end of the gauntlet, or he'll stone you. For Ode, use a Fukei Feather picked up in the temple, then Xin Shan Lian Quan, then Squirrel Kick to win.

Akira: Don't craft anything. When Toei tells you how to get into Daioh, ignore it. The trigger is being told how, not trying; also getting slapped by Taeko is required. Facility is nasty; try to sneak past everything, it's faster/safer than fighting because you'll need 4-6 Taro Kicks to beat the 2x MIB packs. Napalm Bomb the Crusader pack, punch W-1. Daioh is Halogen Laser for trash and Babylon Kick for Odeo.

Cube: Nothing much to say, follow my route in the video exactly. The trick is knowing what triggers story continuation. OD-10, bait out electric field on the healing pods and Spin Drive to kick him to a place he can't heal, then Mind Hack until he's under 270HP then Maser.

Oersted: Ignore all combat until the Demon fight. Put Hash up top and Uranus on the bottom right. Hash should Death Trail, which will bait out a counter that LvDowns the demon. Heal Hash and Trail again. It should take 3 Trails (it took 4 in my run, hmmph). Pick up Hero Shield, Flame Armor, Unicorn Horn (x2), Solomon Bone, and Algos Eye. Equip all but the eye to give Oersted +50 IQ from gear. During the escape Algos guards until 4, then switch to Hammer Power (You get hammer at 3 but it has a 50+% miss rate). Use the eye to grind to 7 in the Forbidden Land, then Hammer Power the first 3 bosses, stone the 4th and Straybow. Safety save before doors 1 and 4; they can fail pretty easy. You should be 9 before attempting door #4.

Finale: My proudest chapter :) Gather everyone, go to Sundown's dungeon, get only the Algos Eye and the 44. Load Sundown for bear for IQ (+90 should be doable). Go into Forbidden Land. If your total party level is below 32, fight only the 2 bulldozer packs. Use Li's squirrel kick and Sundown's Piercing shot to kill the master and breakdown. At 32 stone Ishtars. Have anyone you want leveling up to act, you'll get a level per actor per fight. Grind to Sundown=16 Oboro=10 Li=~13 Masaru=5 then go punch Odio. Odio is all Hurricane Shot for Phase 1, then all Neo Shot Storm for Phase 2.

Boss Rush: Cube uses Maser twice (you can heal between them if you want to be safe), Pogo should use Medicine Box to LvUp himself then spam Boom Boom to knock the dino back repeatedly, Masaru should LvUp himself then Parasite Sword for a OHKO, Akira should Babylon Kick twice for EZ Win, Sundown should make sure he's not going to get Gatling gunned then Neo Shot Storm twice, Li should Squirrel Kick into stun repeatedly, and Oboro should Blade of Wind three times.

Omnigamer

2015-10-27 08:08:23 am

All the things

Great work! I'm really glad somebody went through with trying out a full run. I haven't watched it yet, but it's definitely a starting block for folks moving forward to know what to expect from the run. And for the most part, 4-5 hours isn't terrible as far as RPG runs go. I'll watch through it as I find time.