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Little Nemo: The Dream Master (Any %) (Single Segment) (ntscus) (nes)

Verifier Responses
Note (Not my final decision): It's kinda hard to verify this, but on a short note the gameplay is faster in the new run. about 18-22s give or take.
The Japanese version has a different pattern from the stinger if i remember correct, and that pattern is faster! A pattern that you cant get on the US version. The pending run has some better gameplay also on certain stages.
It's confusing if the J version gets published first and then this. argh.. im torned.
And It would be more confusing to have two categories of this game, since they are different in some ways but not by alot.

We have Ocarina of time, Link to the past, etc. All the others games that are text-heavy, and people choose the J version cause of that.

I don't know... I wanna hear what the rest of you say.

Quote from Same verifier later on:

A/V looks fine to me. I'm no expert.

Stage 1:
Honestly.. why not go for the text skip without pause-buffering here, right at the start of the game? I'm kinda disappointed. Also a little messy getting to the second key and takes one unintentional hit when getting the mole. Stage could've been a couple of seconds faster.

Stage 2:
Pause-buffered text skip saves a good amount of time over the current SDA run (7-8s). Gets the key-jump, good good.
Doesn't go for any damage boosts in the cave. I'm curious why?
Good route through the water, but takes one unintentional hit when getting the lizard.
Stage is very close to what I would call perfect.

Stage 3:
Autoscroller... zzz...

Stage 4:
Pause-buffered text skip loses a bit of time over the current run and looks worse Wink
Small movement improvements here and there. Gets a bit trolled in the underwater cave, but that shit happens.

Stage 5:
Takes a hit from the second snail, right after getting the frog. I'm not sure this costs any time, but it looks sloppy :/
It's actually possible to do the jump over to the bee, with the frog, in real time. It's pretty hard though (1 frame, 1 pixel, as far as I know). That would've saved a significant amount of time (10-15s), but I don't blame the runner for not getting it.
It's also possible to manipulate the stompers so you don't have to stop at all when getting the lizard.
Nothing new for the rest of the stage, as far as I can tell. Goes back to Nemo a bit earlier at the end.

Stage 6:
Correctly doesn't go for text skip here, as it would cost time. Goes for the cloud-platform skips, which the current run doesn't, so that's nice. Saves about 3s or so.
Goes for the very risky damage boost on the snail at the end. Impressive. This stage was really good.

Stage 7:
Nothing new, just really clean.

Stage 8-1:
Get past the spikes in the beginning without taking damage. Looks neat.
Perfect penguin luck (5 shots kill). Could've gone for the 2-cycle kill. Massive time save vs the current run (about 8s).

Stage 8-2:
Better routing through the flames, but hesitates with the boost for some reason(?) About a second lost, but still gets the boost.
The fight looks perfect. It's a bit slower than the fight on the japanese version. But it looks to me as if you could squeeze in another hit. Not sure though, so we'll say it's perfect Smiley

Stage 8-3:
Looks pretty clean. The bee-flying couldv'e been a little better.
The final boss fight is pretty bad, to be honest.

Ok, now for some math! Using numbers from the post in the "Little Nemo"-thread, which I'm sure are not 100% accurate, but close enough.

Time lost due to text between levels: 3.9 + 5.2 + 3.8 + 4.3 + 3.7 + 6.8 + 50.6 = 78.3 seconds
Time lost due to animal conversations: 0.3 seconds (all but stage 6 skipped).
Total: 78.6 seconds.
Run time: 24:44 (starts at 0:11, ends at 24:55)
Japanese time: 23:26 or so.

So the run is definitely faster than the current run. I'm just a bit disappointed that it didn't really introduce any new tricks, except for the pause-buffered text skips :/
So accept. I'll let other people decide if they want to host both the japanese run and this one, or just this one.

Edit: Note: By "current sda-run" I mean the pending run.

A/V good, no cheating. The run looks really well done. And the bosses played nice for the most part. I'm giving it an Accept!

Watched it, pretty much everything that can be said has been said. Still some visible room for improvement but that's true of just about any run. Accept.

Decision: Accept

Reason: Despite being slower real time than the current Japanese run, when the text speed is factored out this run is still noticeably faster

Congratulations to 'HavocProdigy'!
Thread title:  
Edit history:
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:26:31 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:21:03 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:16:42 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:15:07 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:14:26 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:12:39 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-02 03:11:41 am
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-01 08:20:59 pm
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-01 08:15:34 pm
Thanks.  I'd like to address verifier 3, who appears to be the current SDA run-holder of this game.  I'd like to think the verifier has the best of intentions, but there appears to be numerous inaccuracies in his/her post:

1.) I've done the text skip with and without the pauses.  My pauses are quick enough that the difference is literally a half of a second slower or less than doing it in real time.  Watch runs of Faxanadu that use the wingboot extensions in a similar fashion.  I've done this stage well over 1,000 times with both methods and this stage 1 was actually 0.5 seconds off of my best stage 1 split ever after a couple of thousand attempts.  This split was 1:14 on the dot.  Stating that the level could be completed several seconds faster implies that at least a 1:12 or 1:11 is possible.  I'd love to see a level 1 that fast but I'm yet to see one from anyone.

2. Getting into the mole isn't an unintentional hit.  I even address this in my comments so I'm not really sure how this was missed.  Boosting off of the frog and into the mole makes it so that I immediately transform.  Same with the boost into the lizard late in level 2.  I thought it was pretty evident just from watching the run that they were intentional and save time, but just in case, I mentioned both situations in my comments.

3. I disagree about the text skip on level 4 entirely.

4. Again, the hit in stage 5 from the snail is intentional and it allows me to continue without waiting for the snail to pass me.  I can't even remember the last time I did this level without purposely taking the first 2 hits.  It's faster.  I'm not particularly interested in whether it wins style points.

5. I've never seen anyone not named TAS jump to the bee in the basement as the frog.  This doesn't mean that it's completely impossible, but I'm yet to see someone do it.

6. From my understanding, Nemo walks slightly faster than the mouse, which is why I transform back to Nemo as soon as the last monkey enemy is killed.  If I'm wrong, any time loss that we're talking here is a fraction of a second.

7. Agreed on Nightmare Land 3.  My biggest regret of the run is how long the final freaking shot took.

It was previously stated by the runner of the Japanese version that his run was equal to roughly a 25:10 on the English version.  Considering that this run is done in 24:43, that would indicate to me that this run was a 27 second improvement as far as gameplay (if we're to assume that 25:10 is even accurate).  Since it was indicated that my level 1 and 4 text skips are apparently slower and look worse, my only advantage then becomes the level 2 text skip (5-6 seconds maybe?  Probably less since I allegedly lose time on the other skips) which means all of that math is pretty inaccurate and flimsy at best.

Also, I posted in the Little Nemo thread before submitting my run, specifically asking how my run would be handled since the Japanese version gives such a ridiculous advantage in timing and I was basically told that the better run as far as gameplay would stand.  The two games are incredibly similar as far as gameplay.  The Japanese version apparently has an even faster Sting Ray pattern so there's yet another advantage for the Japanese version that was not factored into the skeptical math posted above.  However, to avoid confusion in the future, if SDA wants to keep a run of the Japanese version on the site as well despite being slower in terms of gameplay, I don't really have any outstanding objection.

Any further discussion on lopsided timing differences doesn't particularly interest me at all since most of the few Little Nemo runners in the SDA community run the game on NES.  Also, I'd prefer to focus on talking strategy from here on instead of the exhausting discussions on how much time the Japanese version actually saves.  Thank-you again to the verifiers.
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-11-02 04:02:03 am
Joka: 2013-11-02 03:50:47 am
Joka: 2013-11-02 03:30:48 am
Joka: 2013-11-02 03:30:32 am
Personal text
1-2. Compared side-by-side to my stage 1, yours is pretty much exactly 1 second slower and I'm pretty sure my stage 1 isn't perfect. You can do the text skip with only one jump for instance. "A couple of seconds" might have been a little exaggerated though Smiley

3. You disagree that pausing is slower than not pausing?
Edit: Just to be very clear, the only reason I didn't pause-buffer this skip in my run is because we didn't know about it. I would never do it without pause-buffering again, if I were doing attempts.

4. You can jump past it without stopping. But again, I'm not sure if this is faster or not. If it's faster to take a hit, then take the hit Smiley


6. You're probably right. It's a nice optimization.

Also, I think there was never any question (at least for me) that your run is faster/better and should be featured on the site. The only question was if the J-run should be featured next to it, since the gameplay is sliiiightly different (boss #2) and it's "technically" faster. I just wanted to do the "flimsy" math in case it wasn't clear for anyone that reads this that this new run is faster, and my "flimsy" math is all we got.

Quote from HavocProdigy:
The Japanese version apparently has an even faster Sting Ray pattern so there's yet another advantage for the Japanese version

That's not true. You can kill him faster on the english version. But it's like a 0.5-1s difference either way.

Quote from HavocProdigy:
most of the few Little Nemo runners in the SDA community run the game on NES

I run the japanese version on my NES :/
I guess we'll keep both versions up since there seems to be more subtle differences between them than merely a known text speed diff.
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-11-02 04:15:30 am
Joka: 2013-11-02 04:14:37 am
Personal text
I'd also like to defend my "flimsy" math a bit:
You say your time is 24:43, which would make your japanese time something like 23:24-23:25 (which is pretty darn good, hats off).
My time is ~23:50 japanese and ~25:10 english. So there's a 25-26 second difference on the japanese version and a 27s difference on the english version. That extra 1-2 seconds is due to me not skipping stage 2 text, which is ~1,5 seconds faster on the japanese version.

Seems pretty ok to me.

Edit: I misspelled "off" Sad
Again, not really interested in what you think my time would translate into on the Japanese version since it's all speculative.  There was no real reason to submit a run on the Japanese version and create all of this confusion if shorter cutscene time was not going to be factored into the decision.  There was literally no benefit to doing so, but the damage is done now.  It's going to be strange to keep an obsoleted run on the site as a separate category but that's probably the best solution at this point so I'll consider the matter closed and move on.

Congrats on the frog skip though.  That's pretty cool.
Personal text
Quote from HavocProdigy:
Again, not really interested in what you think my time would translate into on the Japanese version

You're not, I am, others may be.
Then post it in the thread for this game.  This thread is for the verification of my run which was on the English version and not the Japanese version.  You're making this thread all about you and you're coming across as bitter that your run was beat.  It happens.  Let it go. 
Professional Second Banana
Quote from HavocProdigy:
This thread is for the verification of my run which was on the English version and not the Japanese version.  You're making this thread all about you and you're coming across as bitter that your run was beat.

I disagree - the current run on the site is on the Japanese version and this new English version run is an improvement to that in terms of gameplay, so I think doing time conversions between the 2 runs is perfectly reasonable as there are people (myself included) curious about how much faster the run has gotten.  This is done all the time in our community - people run both English and Japanese versions of Mega Man X for instance.
Edit history:
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-03 12:34:21 pm
Then someone that can do so without any bias should probably sit down and time the individual levels in my run and the obsoleted run.  This should have been done when a Japanese version was first submitted, but the verification process for that run was basically "looks faster, I guess. Accept".
The previous english version run and the current japenese version run was made by the same runner. The runner requested the removal of his english version run as the japanese version run was posted which is why no real obsoletion discussion was needed at that point.

The best people to accurately find out about the differences between versions of a game are in fact the people who run the game. As it is now it seems there's no known list of all the differences between the versions.

Since this is a submission that may or may not be obsoleting an existing run on site, this thread is actually the best place to discuss this very subject.
In order to determine cross-version obsoletions, we need to make them comparable somehow.
Edit history:
HavocProdigy: 2013-11-03 12:54:23 pm
I previously stated on several occasions (here and the thread for the game) that I'm OK with the Japanese run being kept on the site as a separate category.  Since the math that I've seen for the timing differences has changed a bit each time I've seen it, you can understand my skepticism.  If I time the individual levels in both runs myself, I wouldn't blame others for not taking my word for it.  Either way, let's do something about it or let it go.  Would you like me to time the individual levels of the game myself or would someone from SDA prefer to?
We'd love for the community of this game to come to a consensus regarding how things now and future should be handled.
If it had only been a matter of cutscene text speed differences we would just have IsraeliRD time the differences and compare the times that way.
Since there seem to also exist other differences (AI differences, and I've seen mention of staff charge speed differences etc.), you guys are definitely the best ones to find out if there's a consistent way to compare runs cross versions (or come to the conclusion that they are not directly comparable).
Personal text
Ok, my opinion: It's the same category. His run obsoletes my run, since it's faster when the text speed difference is taken into consideration. The slight difference on one of the bosses is not enough to make it two different categories. I would love if someone else wanted to time the text speed differences with more accuracy, so we have better ground to stand on (even though in this case it's pretty darn clear which run is the faster in terms of gameplay).

That being said, I still think people should just play the fastest version. The point is getting as low time as possible.
Edit history:
doicm: 2013-11-03 05:36:43 pm
As someone who knows this game a little bit but not enough to speedrun it, I could probably give some unbiased view. Granted I wouldn't be able to give frame-by-frame analysis unless I had the original videos.

I'll see if I can play around with this on both of the videos and timing the textual differences between them.

EDIT: If I could find full speedruns on Youtube or Twitch both, I'd be willing to try it. Trying SDA's player is a bit troublesome when it comes to pausing and unpausing.
Good posts.  I'd prefer to put aside any bickering at this point and simply focus on how the run would be published.  I'm OK with your run remaining on the site as well, Joka, as I'm pretty sure nothing in this thread was personal, but the decision is certainly not solely up to me (if at all).