Legend of Mana

2015-03-14 04:03:51 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Bumping because I'm doing further testing of event stuff. I'm highly confident 18 - Daddy's Broom has nothing to do with number of events. I completed it with NINE (only 12 events triggered total). The triggers simply are just complete The Little Sorcerers, The Infernal Doll, start The Seven Wisdoms, and not be going Li'l Cactus.

PixelKaye

2015-04-28 11:36:01 pm

Very Thanks..!!

New LoM runner incoming!

Hey all, some of you may already know me from Ninja Gaiden or Blaster Master, but I wanted to jump in, say hello, and show that there's still interest in the game. ^_^
Just ran my first attempt at Dragon and got a RTA of 1:49:06, ITG of 1:59 (SDS on PS2).

djtifaheart

2015-04-28 11:52:40 pm

Gotta Go Fast!

Needs more love for the Faerie route ;~;

But yes, always good to see new runners.

PixelKaye

2015-04-29 12:14:15 am

Very Thanks..!!

Quote from djtifaheart:

Needs more love for the Faerie route ;~;

But yes, always good to see new runners.

I plan on learning all three routes actually. :3 I'm just starting with Dragon since it's the quickest. :3

EnkerBlues

2015-04-29 10:48:10 am

I'll also be learning Dragon Storyline after RPGLB is finished, get a good time in WA, do a run of MML. May pick up Faerie after Dragon.

PixelKaye

2015-05-12 09:49:34 am

Very Thanks..!!

Hey all!

So I got a new PB last night, which matches SirVG's WR time IGT, however the RTA for my run is faster by ~20 seconds. Would you consider this a new WR, even though IGT matches at 1:49:xx? I wanted to ask the community before going through with submitting. Obviously I know I can get faster than 1:48:xx with good RNG, but I need to get back to focusing on SMW and Blaster Master for Scrubathon III as fast as I can so I don't know when I'll have time to do another attempt after today.

Here's the run on youtube: (w/o commentary)
Here's the run as it was recorded on twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pixelkaye/c/6678063 (w/ commentary)
Here's the splits as they were when I recorded (including the messed up split with Crimson Dragon): https://splits.io/4nf
Here's the splits after I went back, rewatched the video, and adjusted the time accordingly with a time calculator: https://splits.io/4ni

Deuceler

2015-05-12 10:09:51 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Grats PixelKaye! I don't see why this wouldn't be WR since the RTA is faster. I'd talk to some mods on site and make sure you have SirVG's RTA time to compare against yours to show it's quicker, and upon submission/verification they can update the time to show RTA as opposed to IGT. Of course, I think you should still go for the 1:48 thumbsup

PixelKaye

2015-05-12 10:11:08 am

Very Thanks..!!

I'm going to try for a faster time tonight, but after this week I need to derust in other games. Smiley

Thanks Deuceler!

PixelKaye

2015-05-13 08:06:37 am

Very Thanks..!!

Nevermind the previous post, as last night I broke the 1:49.

I did it! I did the thing!

Deuceler

2015-05-13 10:26:46 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Congrats Pixel!

PixelKaye

Edit history:

PixelKaye: 2015-05-13 03:11:19 pm

PixelKaye: 2015-05-13 03:00:44 pm

PixelKaye: 2015-05-13 02:59:54 pm

2015-05-13 02:34:37 pm

Very Thanks..!!

Since SirVG isn't the only one running this game again (as I'm going to pick up Faerie and Jumi after Scrubathon), I want to bring the discussion back to RTA and FDS versus IGT and NDS.

Points for RTA:
While IGT is preferred by the JP players, and has a mostly consistent timing of +10 minutes from RTA (if timer starts at map select and ends at Mana Goddess), most games in the community that were natively IGT have been pushing away from it and moving to RTA for accuracy of timing. Cases in point: Brave Fencer Musashi and Super Metroid. Both used to go completely by IGT and didn't change until recently when the communities pushed to have them changed.
With SirVG being the primary player of LoM for the longest time on console, IGT stayed the staple for LoM as long as it's been around.
Honestly, from my personal view, having to wait 10 minutes to know the results of what you already know sucks when you're streaming, because everyone's just sitting around watching (while listening to excellent music at least) waiting for results of a 10 minute wait to confirm what we all already know.
While there IS one or two last input of dialogue after defeating Mana Goddess, Mega Man X also has a dialogue to click after defeating Sigma but they don't recognize that in the RTA. Just one of several examples, of course. Lunar SSS also has post-RTA dialogue as well.
tl;dr IGT is an outdated method known for being inaccurate in the majority of the games it was ever used in, and we might as well acknowledge it here as well to not stick out of the majority of the community like a sore thumb or alienate other runners who want to race this game with RTA timing in SRL.

Points for FDS:
After doing an offline run of FDS to see what what was going on with that and timing, the only thing that I could really tell that were negatively affected by it is the FMVs during and after actions (ie Draconis dying and ending credits). Since we are, after all, SPEEDRUNNING, and FDS is the recognized and preferred method in verifications for SDA for the majority of games run on PS1/PS2 (The biggest exclusion being FF8 since it legitimately breaks from FDS), I'd argue that it should be recognized as the primary Any% for all storyline routes (ie "Dragon Storyline Any%). In exchange for that, I suggest changing the normal disc speed routes to something akin to "Dragon Storyline Any% w/ NDS" so that they can both be recognized as categories for those who prefer one over the other (like Slots, No Slots for FF7; Deathless, Death Warps for Blaster Master; etc.).

In regards to going against how the JP players run the game, they also stick to outdated methods in both regards to IGT and RTA, as JP players run their RTA from powering console on until definitive end in almost all of their games, so we really shouldn't take their methods into account for how we run over here in the US/EU.

Since SirVG isn't the only one running this game again (as I'm going to pick up Faerie and Jumi after Scrubathon), I want to bring the discussion back to RTA and FDS versus IGT and NDS.

Points for RTA:
While IGT is preferred by the JP players, and has a mostly consistent timing of +10 minutes from RTA (if timer starts at map select and ends at Mana Goddess), most games in the community that were natively IGT have been pushing away from it and moving to RTA for accuracy of timing. Cases in point: Brave Fencer Musashi and Super Metroid. Both used to go completely by IGT and didn't change until recently when the communities pushed to have them changed. 
With SirVG being the primary player of LoM for the longest time on console, IGT stayed the staple for LoM as long as it's been around. 
Honestly, from my personal view, having to wait 10 minutes to know the results of what you already know sucks when you're streaming, because everyone's just sitting around watching (while listening to excellent music at least) waiting for results of a 10 minute wait to confirm what we all already know.
While there IS one or two last input of dialogue after defeating Mana Goddess, Mega Man X also has a dialogue to click after defeating Sigma but they don't recognize that in the RTA. Just one of several examples, of course. Lunar SSS also has post-RTA dialogue as well.
tl;dr IGT is an outdated method known for being inaccurate in the majority of the games it was ever used in, and we might as well acknowledge it here as well to not stick out of the majority of the community like a sore thumb or alienate other runners who want to race this game with RTA timing in SRL.

Points for FDS: 
After doing an offline run of FDS to see what what was going on with that and timing, the only thing that I could really tell that were negatively affected by it is the FMVs during and after actions (ie Draconis dying and ending credits). Since we are, after all, SPEEDRUNNING, and FDS is the recognized and preferred method in verifications for SDA for the majority of games run on PS1/PS2 (The biggest exclusion being FF8 since it legitimately breaks from FDS), I'd argue that it should be recognized as the primary Any% for all storyline routes (ie "Dragon Storyline Any%). In exchange for that, I suggest changing the normal disc speed routes to something akin to "Dragon Storyline Any% w/ NDS" so that they can both be recognized as categories for those who prefer one over the other (like Slots, No Slots for FF7; Deathless, Death Warps for Blaster Master; etc.).

In regards to going against how the JP players run the game, they also stick to outdated methods in both regards to IGT and RTA, as JP players run their RTA from powering console on until definitive end in almost all of their games, so we really shouldn't take their methods into account for how we run over here in the US/EU.

PixelKaye

2015-05-13 03:22:06 pm

Very Thanks..!!

Another thought I just had for IGT vs RTA is going similar to how Super Metroid records runs. RTA should be recognized as the primary timing while IGT as secondary. So in consideration for WRs or PBs, 1:38:01 would be the primary time recorded (for timing consistency) and 1:48:xx would be secondary. So while you can still recognize "First to sub 1:47 IGT", if the timing is still slower than the WR RTA (case in point, my previous RTA time was ~20 seconds faster than SirVG's RTA, which by all means put my time faster than his, but he didn't want to acknowledge because it matched IGT) it doesn't count as a faster time overall.
Recognizing IGT as the primary time can really put a downer on someone. When I technically beat VG's time in RTA, but was still same IGT, he contested it as his still being the primary WR, despite my faster time. That's honestly unfair, not just to me, but to anyone who matches times with someone else. Super Mario World goes with HH:MM:SS.MS for timing Any% because two people could have the same Minutes:Seconds in RTA, but milliseconds are so varied that that changes the place of each other.
Only way to check seconds in IGT in Legend of Mana is by loading up a NG+ from the previous save, and deduct time from between the time you can open the menu from the initial start, which can be a huge pain to figure out if you don't time it correctly, and even then it tends to become a "well I think it's this instead of this" and that leads to headaches and arguments.

Another thought I just had for IGT vs RTA is going similar to how Super Metroid records runs. RTA should be recognized as the primary timing while IGT as secondary. So in consideration for WRs or PBs, 1:38:01 would be the primary time recorded (for timing consistency) and 1:48:xx would be secondary. So while you can still recognize "First to sub 1:47 IGT", if the timing is still slower than the WR RTA (case in point, my previous RTA time was ~20 seconds faster than SirVG's RTA, which by all means put my time faster than his, but he didn't want to acknowledge because it matched IGT) it doesn't count as a faster time overall. 
Recognizing IGT as the primary time can really put a downer on someone. When I technically beat VG's time in RTA, but was still same IGT, he contested it as his still being the primary WR, despite my faster time. That's honestly unfair, not just to me, but to anyone who matches times with someone else. Super Mario World goes with HH:MM:SS.MS for timing Any% because two people could have the same Minutes:Seconds in RTA, but milliseconds are so varied that that changes the place of each other. 
Only way to check seconds in IGT in Legend of Mana is by loading up a NG+ from the previous save, and deduct time from between the time you can open the menu from the initial start, which can be a huge pain to figure out if you don't time it correctly, and even then it tends to become a "well I think it's this instead of this" and that leads to headaches and arguments.

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2015-05-13 03:37:30 pm

2015-05-13 03:29:09 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I never contested anything. I just tried to figure out about what your IGT was, including seconds and probably have it within 5 seconds.

Also, the Japanese runners time from pressing start on New Game, not from power on, at least for this game.

As for NDS/FDS speeds, I've stated my peace on that and I'm not going to pull my hair (what little of exists anymore) on those debates anymore. I'm not a prominent runner on anything anymore, so I don't feel my opinions matter much anyways. Do as you feel.

Edit: Also, in regards to IGT, I've been using it mostly because SDA pushed it. As stated on the game's page:

Quote:

Timing note: The Dragon's quest run uses the in-game timer for timing. The other runs do not use the in-game timer because the end-game save was not shown during those runs. Using the in-game timer is now the standard. The moral of the story: show your save after you beat the game.

PixelKaye

2015-05-13 03:41:48 pm

Very Thanks..!!

SDA did used to push for IGT for Super Metroid as well, but was recently changed:

Quote:

Note: Game is now timed in real-time starting at submissions from 2013 and forward.

So there's always room for changing things up. I'm not trying to make anyone upset, and I'm sorry if I did. I'm only trying to help make the community, what little we have, better, and more in-time with the changes that everything else is going through in the speedrun scene.

Deuceler

2015-05-13 04:22:40 pm

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

SDA used to push IGT, but with so many more runs being submitted and games being revisited it's hard to keep something so inaccurate validated. Obviously it's important to pay homage to people who ran the game before you and paved the way for you to get a time, whether it be giving them shoutouts or referring to their run when appropriate. IGT became outdated when more people began to join, and runs became optimized. Timing for accuracy is fairly important when runs are being compared - whether it be SDA or some other source.

Any reason you wouldn't try to improve the run VG?

PixelKaye

Edit history:

PixelKaye: 2015-05-13 04:49:54 pm

2015-05-13 04:49:14 pm

Very Thanks..!!

Quote from Deuceler:

Any reason you wouldn't try to improve the run VG?

We both know the run can be optimized to at least 1:36:56 RTA thanks to SilentOverseer, and my Sum of Best segments is 1:36:30, so you can totally make a comeback with good RNG. Hell, I got trolled by FullMetal Haggar and Draconis my WR run. I KNOW it could easily be taken down another minute at least.

EnkerBlues

2015-05-19 03:14:17 pm

Hey guys! Now that RPGLB is over, I'm hoping I can learn LoM after I get a good time in Wild ARMS(which should happen soon). Where is the best place to start knowing the "why" of what is happening in each route. I don't want to end up simpy copycatting routes, would love to help contribute and know what I'm doing as well. Been reading through this topic and noticed that some stuff has become outdated. If anyone has any route notes or something I can research that'd be great. I'm hoping to start with Dragon route and branch off to the other ones later.

Thanks!

PixelKaye

2015-05-19 03:48:55 pm

Very Thanks..!!

Hey EnkerBlues! This seems to pretty much be *the* place to learn routes. SilentOverseer was kind enough to share his notes with me, as well as an unfinished document that Tegan was working on (the document is linked here in the thread a few pages back) but was widely unfinished.

I learned just by analyzing SirVG's previous record video on SDA and then people like him and Silent would come into my stream and give me more pointers on what could go better where, etc.

EnkerBlues

2015-05-19 04:01:35 pm

Cool, thanks PK. Guess I'll just have to start diving in to it =D. Gonna casual it again before I get in to it more so I can re-familiarize, but can't wait to get started =D!

PX_

2015-05-23 01:47:23 pm

twitch.tv/pxmacaiah

After 3 years of casually running, I got Dragon WR by not running this on an inferior console >_>

http://www.twitch.tv/pxtfd/c/6732322

Sir VG

2015-05-23 02:09:59 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from PX_:

After 3 years of casually running, I got Dragon WR by not running this on an inferior console >_>

http://www.twitch.tv/pxtfd/c/6732322

Unfortunately, it's not a WR. Sorry.

Attachments:

Dragon Storyline WR 2015.05.15 (1_46).png

lom - dragon 146.png

PixelKaye

2015-05-24 12:16:26 am

Very Thanks..!!

Hey SirVG, do you have any video of your new WR? I'd love to see what you do differently from before.

Sir VG

2015-05-24 11:51:19 am

Fucking Weeaboo

I'll be honest, right now I'm keeping the video a bit of a secret as I'm putting in a lot of attempts whenever possible to get 1:45, which I know is doable. I WILL put out a video when that happens.

Consider me a bit selfish or a bit competitive, but it's something I figured out and right now it's about the only thing that's keeping me going solidly on runs right now.

That being said, I will mention some things to give you guys hints.

1. The event order has not changed, as you see by my splits.
2. The placement of AFs has not changed.
3. There are no new techniques that haven't been done in either my run or Kaye's runs.

Side notes, the run is still performed on a PS2 Slim (70xxx model), on Normal Disc Speed, and no splits were hit late or early. The run is recorded.

That's what I've got for you for now. Sorry if you're waiting on a video. Sad

I'm pushing hard to get 1:45 done though, but I will probably take a break when FF5FJF happens though.

Sir VG

2015-05-26 06:13:11 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Well, it happened. 1:45 IGT is in the bag. As promised, I've released a video that will show you the things I've changed in my run.

Ultimately, the biggest change is weapon. I no longer use gloves (IronGloves and SpiralClaw) and instead return to Mekiv Caverns after The Lost Princess in order to fight Goblins for an EarthSplitter 2H Axe (for those wondering, NO, you cannot get it before beating Du'Inke as that area is blocked by Boinks). It has an attack power of 31, which is nearly the level of Braveblade (which is 37 ATK). This changes the strategy for Hitodama and Akrivator a lot. Akrivator I mostly go for Counterstrikes, which do a heaping amount of damage. Hitodama I go for Heavy Attack Cancels and pray for the best.

In the run, I got extremely good luck all around, especially the Hitodama fight. About the only issues were that I lost ~30 seconds on Jajara since he got extra techs off (the 2nd on part 2 was EXTREMELY aggravating) and I screwed up the tech on Mana Goddess.

Overall, I'm extremely happy with how things went. 1:44 is possible though for certain. I figure I missed it by about 5 seconds. If everything went absolutely perfect, you got completely perfect luck and made zero mistakes, maybe 1:43 is possible, which honestly is insane. The current best IGT of the Japanese run is I believe is either extremely high 1:42 or low 1:43.

Enjoy, guys and gals.

Well, it happened. 1:45 IGT is in the bag. As promised, I've released a video that will show you the things I've changed in my run.

Ultimately, the biggest change is weapon. I no longer use gloves (IronGloves and SpiralClaw) and instead return to Mekiv Caverns after The Lost Princess in order to fight Goblins for an EarthSplitter 2H Axe (for those wondering, NO, you cannot get it before beating Du'Inke as that area is blocked by Boinks). It has an attack power of 31, which is nearly the level of Braveblade (which is 37 ATK). This changes the strategy for Hitodama and Akrivator a lot. Akrivator I mostly go for Counterstrikes, which do a heaping amount of damage. Hitodama I go for Heavy Attack Cancels and pray for the best.

In the run, I got extremely good luck all around, especially the Hitodama fight. About the only issues were that I lost ~30 seconds on Jajara since he got extra techs off (the 2nd on part 2 was EXTREMELY aggravating) and I screwed up the tech on Mana Goddess.

Overall, I'm extremely happy with how things went. 1:44 is possible though for certain. I figure I missed it by about 5 seconds. If everything went absolutely perfect, you got completely perfect luck and made zero mistakes, maybe 1:43 is possible, which honestly is insane. The current best IGT of the Japanese run is I believe is either extremely high 1:42 or low 1:43.

Enjoy, guys and gals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SikkuLwsVc0

Attachment:

dragon 145.png

PixelKaye

2015-05-27 10:28:16 pm

Very Thanks..!!

Jesus christ, that is insane! I will give congrats where congrats are due. I knew you could bring down the time even further if pushed to.

I'll definitely check out the run later this week. I'm still trying to derust Blaster Master for Scrubathon and Wolfpackathon so that's eating up all of my time atm.