Legend of Legaia

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-01-30 09:21:25 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 09:20:53 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 09:10:06 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 09:10:00 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 09:09:58 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 06:40:42 pm

exileut: 2015-01-30 06:38:52 pm

2015-01-30 06:02:39 pm

A nice man in the tasvideos irc channel made a script for me. I am currently testing if 2 round Gimard is possible.

Edit: Is the top left Gimard forced to open with Tail Fire every time? Engaging the enemy on a different frame is all I can think of. I'll test that next. The 2 round Gimard is looking impossible. My max is 48 damage. But I want to test for 400 frames or so. As long as it takes less time than an extra round it is worth it.

Edit2: 2 round kill is impossible on that first gimard you absorb.
Attack order(Surprise, Ambush, enemy or player first) is chosen the frame you enter battle. ~~Enemy Attack type(2hits, 3hits, magic) is also chosen this way, except when Spirit is used.~~ I am working on round 2 and beyond to learn how they work.
Attack damage and blocking for enemy and player can be manipulated when you end your turn.

Edit3: Good news. Attack order(Surprise, Ambush, enemy or player first) is chosen the frame you enter battle. Enemy Attack type(2hits, 3hits, magic) can be manipulated in battle. Testing.

A nice man in the tasvideos irc channel made a script for me. I am currently testing if 2 round Gimard is possible.

Edit: Is the top left Gimard forced to open with Tail Fire every time? Engaging the enemy on a different frame is all I can think of. I'll test that next. The 2 round Gimard is looking impossible. My max is 48 damage. But I want to test for 400 frames or so. As long as it takes less time than an extra round it is worth it.

Edit2: 2 round kill is impossible on that first gimard you absorb. 
Attack order(Surprise, Ambush, enemy or player first) is chosen the frame you enter battle.[s] Enemy Attack type(2hits, 3hits, magic) is also chosen this way, except when Spirit is used.[/s] I am working on round 2 and beyond to learn how they work.
Attack damage and blocking for enemy and player can be manipulated when you end your turn.

Edit3: Good news. Attack order(Surprise, Ambush, enemy or player first) is chosen the frame you enter battle. Enemy Attack type(2hits, 3hits, magic) can be manipulated in battle. Testing.

Deathtome

Edit history:

Deathtome: 2015-01-31 08:41:04 pm

Deathtome: 2015-01-31 08:40:00 pm

Deathtome: 2015-01-31 08:37:50 pm

Deathtome: 2015-01-31 08:36:13 pm

2015-01-31 08:23:48 pm

Thanks Drifting Skies! I was reading through all the posts and currently reading through the ideas for the single-segment.

I want to help you with the capture card issue. If you live in the US you could buy a capture card for $20-30 with acceptable quality. "Dazzle DVC 100" including the split cables (+$5). The file sizes won't get that big. I would estimate an hour to be about 2-3GB if you use the highest quality (MPEG). The quality is the same as my single-segment run, which I sent a quality test for a few months back. I think it would be nice even for you to have it as a memory if you decide to do a segmented run. ;-) I hope you at least check it out! It's very easy and doesn't take much time at all between resets.

EDIT: You asked me about the occasional walking. Hmm, I probably need to do more testing, but I feel that I get further between battles when I start to walk unpredictably before a battle happens. I know about how far I can run before I know I am getting close to an encounter. I would say that after about 75% of running, if I messure it in 100% being where I think the battle is gonna happen, I start walking for about 1-1½ seconds and then run for 1 second and again walk 1½ seconds. I tested this quite a lot on a console. It worked everytime. When I tried it on an emulator, the result was always the same (I think the emulator saves something that the console doesn't?).

Anyhow, I was going through Drake's Castle -> Save Room as quick as possible. I got 2-3 battles when I used the strategy with walking, and always +1 encounter extra on average when I didn't walk at all (I noticed getting battles more closely in between each other when I didn't walk at all).

All I did was having a save file before Drake's Castle and loading it when I had died or from in-game.

So what was different? On console I was always able to delay the first battle by walking, but on emulator I always got the battle on the same spot after turning the first switch (was no way to change it). Not talking about any save-state things now. There was a clear difference, but only on the actual console. I need more testing in the future, but for me... it feels like it works to delay battles. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.

Thanks Drifting Skies! I was reading through all the posts and currently reading through the ideas for the single-segment.

I want to help you with the capture card issue. If you live in the US you could buy a capture card for $20-30 with acceptable quality. "Dazzle DVC 100" including the split cables (+$5). The file sizes won't get that big. I would estimate an hour to be about 2-3GB if you use the highest quality (MPEG). The quality is the same as my single-segment run, which I sent a quality test for a few months back. I think it would be nice even for you to have it as a memory if you decide to do a segmented run. ;-) I hope you at least check it out! It's very easy and doesn't take much time at all between resets.

EDIT: You asked me about the occasional walking. Hmm, I probably need to do more testing, but I feel that I get further between battles when I start to walk unpredictably before a battle happens. I know about how far I can run before I know I am getting close to an encounter. I would say that after about 75% of running, if I messure it in 100% being where I think the battle is gonna happen, I start walking for about 1-1½ seconds and then run for 1 second and again walk 1½ seconds. I tested this quite a lot on a console. It worked everytime. When I tried it on an emulator, the result was always the same (I think the emulator saves something that the console doesn't?).

Anyhow, I was going through Drake's Castle -> Save Room as quick as possible. I got 2-3 battles when I used the strategy with walking, and always +1 encounter extra on average when I didn't walk at all (I noticed getting battles more closely in between each other when I didn't walk at all).

All I did was having a save file before Drake's Castle and loading it when I had died or from in-game.

So what was different? On console I was always able to delay the first battle by walking, but on emulator I always got the battle on the same spot after turning the first switch (was no way to change it). Not talking about any save-state things now. There was a clear difference, but only on the actual console. I need more testing in the future, but for me... it feels like it works to delay battles. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 11:29:45 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 11:29:43 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 11:29:40 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 09:33:22 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 09:20:07 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 09:20:01 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 09:19:59 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 09:08:47 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-31 08:59:54 pm

2015-01-31 08:58:20 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

I wasn't sure if it would be or not, only that there was a small chance that it would have worked and it was worth trying...

Does it determine turn order for all potentially infinite number of turns right away, or just turn order for the first turn? I figured that surprise and ambush would be determined right at the start.

Also, it's worth noting that the formula for escaping random battles is such that you get a boost when your party members are low on HP, and otherwise considers the party's sum of SPD vs. the enemies' sum of SPD. Thus, it's probably ideal for saving frames of manipulation to keep your HP as low as possible (without a game over, of course). All party members are revived at 1 HP whenever you are out of battle, so you can let party members die in battle without having to worry about using revival items.
----

I was able to get 2 battles through Drake Castle without the walking strategy while doing the segmented run; I wonder if there's just some selection and/or confirmation bias going on, but eh... I couldn't tell you one way or the other; I just assume it can't be manipulated except using the save & load glitch, and I figure since it's a glitch, it's fair game. I dunno.

Re: Capture Card: I do live in the US, and I'd be recording SD footage using composite (yellow/red/white plugs) A/V cables; I would need to make sure that I could capture 240p input, since I'd be also be interested in recording N64/GCN games down the line using the same setup if possible, but that's all I will say on the matter in this thread since that's not really the point of this thread.

Anyway, since the tournament was a little shorter than I anticipated today, I have managed to work on this run a little bit more; I am at the top of Mt. Rikuroa at 40:32 ready to fight Caruban; I should have a good setup for a 3 turn kill since I do have the L5 Gimard this time around. Assuming everything goes well, I should be back to Drake Castle at around the 46 minute mark, which is about two minutes faster than the previous run. More luck manipulation and a more streamlined strategy means that I should be able to clear Drake Kingom just under the 1:40:00 mark, which would be a good target for an actual submission. I do sincerely think that 8:15 is doable, so I don't see the point in shooting for 8:30 if there's another 15 minutes sitting there to be taken.

EDIT: Got the 3 turn kill of Caruban; Vahn survived with 6 HP and delivered a monster 274 with Gimard to overkill Caruban by 32. I'll get a time when I cut the segment after Door of Lighting off the Mountain. Unfortunately, I only got a +8 MP instead of a +9, so I'm going to have to try again. I think I can cut the 5:18 segment down to 5:12 or so with better mashing optimization.

EDIT 2: 5:11 kill of Caruban and down the mountain. Only got the +7 MP on Vahn (worst possible draw), so it's time to reset and try again. All this for the Gaza fights in three in-game hours.

EDIT 3: Got a 5:07 clear of the Caruban segment with the +9 MP on Vahn, which I'm taking. Now off to Drake Castle at 45:39 in-game time. I need to pick up some treasure chests in the castle, and then sell some items to buy 3x Defender Chain and shoes for Noa.

I wasn't sure if it would be or not, only that there was a small chance that it would have worked and it was worth trying...

Does it determine turn order for all potentially infinite number of turns right away, or just turn order for the first turn?  I figured that surprise and ambush would be determined right at the start.

Also, it's worth noting that the formula for escaping random battles is such that you get a boost when your party members are low on HP, and otherwise considers the party's sum of SPD vs. the enemies' sum of SPD.  Thus, it's probably ideal for saving frames of manipulation to keep your HP as low as possible (without a game over, of course).  All party members are revived at 1 HP whenever you are out of battle, so you can let party members die in battle without having to worry about using revival items.
----

I was able to get 2 battles through Drake Castle without the walking strategy while doing the segmented run; I wonder if there's just some selection and/or confirmation bias going on, but eh...  I couldn't tell you one way or the other; I just assume it can't be manipulated except using the save & load glitch, and I figure since it's a glitch, it's fair game.  I dunno.

Re: Capture Card: I do live in the US, and I'd be recording SD footage using composite (yellow/red/white plugs) A/V cables; I would need to make sure that I could capture 240p input, since I'd be also be interested in recording N64/GCN games down the line using the same setup if possible, but that's all I will say on the matter in this thread since that's not really the point of this thread.

Anyway, since the tournament was a little shorter than I anticipated today, I have managed to work on this run a little bit more; I am at the top of Mt. Rikuroa at 40:32 ready to fight Caruban; I should have a good setup for a 3 turn kill since I do have the L5 Gimard this time around.  Assuming everything goes well, I should be back to Drake Castle at around the 46 minute mark, which is about two minutes faster than the previous run.  More luck manipulation and a more streamlined strategy means that I should be able to clear Drake Kingom just under the 1:40:00 mark, which would be a good target for an actual submission.  I do sincerely think that 8:15 is doable, so I don't see the point in shooting for 8:30 if there's another 15 minutes sitting there to be taken.

EDIT: Got the 3 turn kill of Caruban; Vahn survived with 6 HP and delivered a monster 274 with Gimard to overkill Caruban by 32.  I'll get a time when I cut the segment after Door of Lighting off the Mountain.  Unfortunately, I only got a +8 MP instead of a +9, so I'm going to have to try again.  I think I can cut the 5:18 segment down to 5:12 or so with better mashing optimization.

EDIT 2: 5:11 kill of Caruban and down the mountain.  Only got the +7 MP on Vahn (worst possible draw), so it's time to reset and try again.  All this for the Gaza fights in three in-game hours.

EDIT 3: Got a 5:07 clear of the Caruban segment with the +9 MP on Vahn, which I'm taking.  Now off to Drake Castle at 45:39 in-game time.  I need to pick up some treasure chests in the castle, and then sell some items to buy 3x Defender Chain and shoes for Noa.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 09:45:05 am

exileut: 2015-02-01 09:44:10 am

exileut: 2015-02-01 09:22:27 am

2015-02-01 09:21:20 am

From TASvideos:

"0007B5FC: Random Encounter
When this hits 0, you will enter a random encounter. It decreases by 42 each time you cross invisible grid lines in the world. If you cross the line by 1 pixel you can go back and forth and get into a random battle in a few frames. (If the world map didn't run at 20 fps) Or run around inside a grid square without touching the edges and never have an encounter.
When you enter a battle the value changes to 600-1400. This is your new starting value when the battle is over. Entering town will increase this to 700-1000, but only if you are already below 480. This can be manipulated easily."

I think the first random encounter value is set when you start a new game, but you can't see it until just before you enter the map for the first time. Manipulating something that takes 15 minutes isn't really possible, plus a maximum starting value of 1400 (the maximum might be higher for triggers that aren't random encounters) would not be high enough to achieve 0 encounters.

I only tested random encounter rates on the world map where you can't walk. I can test if walking reduces the random encounter counter by less than 42.

I guess this really only matters in a TAS, but the problem is mapping out an entire zone. You need to do a perfect run of that entire area to set a baseline.
1. Crossing grid lines where the intersect (so it takes longer to get to 0)
2. Running the script for each encounter to maximize the encounter value so the next encounter is delayed
3. Checking what the enemies are, who goes first, is escape successful (finding ram addresses for these would make this slightly more possible)
4. Making sure encounter value is below 480 at the zone exit (ideally 0-41)

This finds the minimum number of encounters for an area. Encounters take a long time, so it is usually faster to take time manipulating them not to happen.
The next problem is where to cut off manipulation time to get close to 0 on zone exit. In a realistic run you would probably only do this on the final encounter. You can save your few days of input this way. You probably don't want to redo the entire zone.

This post grew quite a bit as I was writing it, but battles are probably the number one time saver in the run. Have a good Sunday.

From TASvideos:

[i]"0007B5FC: Random Encounter 
When this hits 0, you will enter a random encounter. It decreases by 42 each time you cross invisible grid lines in the world. If you cross the line by 1 pixel you can go back and forth and get into a random battle in a few frames. (If the world map didn't run at 20 fps) Or run around inside a grid square without touching the edges and never have an encounter. 
When you enter a battle the value changes to 600-1400. This is your new starting value when the battle is over. Entering town will increase this to 700-1000, but only if you are already below 480. This can be manipulated easily."[/i]

I think the first random encounter value is set when you start a new game, but you can't see it until just before you enter the map for the first time. Manipulating something that takes 15 minutes isn't really possible, plus a maximum starting value of 1400 (the maximum might be higher for triggers that aren't random encounters) would not be high enough to achieve 0 encounters.

I only tested random encounter rates on the world map where you can't walk. I can test if walking reduces the random encounter counter by less than 42.

I guess this really only matters in a TAS, but the problem is mapping out an entire zone. You need to do a perfect run of that entire area to set a baseline.
1. Crossing grid lines where the intersect (so it takes longer to get to 0)
2. Running the script for each encounter to maximize the encounter value so the next encounter is delayed
3. Checking what the enemies are, who goes first, is escape successful (finding ram addresses for these would make this slightly more possible)
4. Making sure encounter value is below 480 at the zone exit (ideally 0-41)

This finds the minimum number of encounters for an area. Encounters take a long time, so it is usually faster to take time manipulating them not to happen.
The next problem is where to cut off manipulation time to get close to 0 on zone exit. In a realistic run you would probably only do this on the final encounter. You can save your few days of input this way. You probably don't want to redo the entire zone.

This post grew quite a bit as I was writing it, but battles are probably the number one time saver in the run. Have a good Sunday.

Drifting Skies

2015-02-01 10:05:47 am

steak Steak STEAK!!!

Do you think you could skip forward and and do a test video of how fast you can run through the slot machine? I'd like to get you some sort of baseline speed set up so we can figure out a money route for the game, since I am going to make the wild leap that point card abuse is going to be by far the best way of dispatching every boss after Berserker (who falls to Nighto). You can probably skip most of the stat-boosters too after Drake Kingdom because you'll be able to have perfect escape luck, so you'll probably get many fewer treasures than I did with my puny human skills.

My guess is that a lot of the treasures I pick up in the second half of the game to sell for cash are completely unnecessary, because slot machines are going to be so much faster with tool-assistance, but without knowing exactly how quick you can TAS the slots, I wouldn't know with certainty.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 11:07:22 am

exileut: 2015-02-01 11:07:05 am

2015-02-01 10:21:13 am

Bizhawk psx core is the best thing we have for rerecording, but it is very slow. Less than 2x speed with max turbo. I'll test the walking encounter rate and slot machines today.

Edit: Walking has no effect on encounter rates. Is there anything else I should test on my way to slots?

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 11:27:20 am

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 11:25:28 am

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 11:13:45 am

2015-02-01 11:12:03 am

steak Steak STEAK!!!

I can't think of anything offhand that is really important to test before the slot machine, except maybe if you knew some way to manipulate the random portion of how characters gain stat bonuses when their level increases. Stat gains are partially fixed, but also have a random bonus from 0-2 points (0-8 for HP). If you could manipulate certain stats - most importantly would be Noa's AGL and Vahn's MP - to have the best growths, it would save a good bit of time in the later parts of the run. The biggest thing is that you'd want Vahn to have 192 MP as soon as possible, because that's the minimum required to use Evil Seru magic while wearing a Spirit Jewel.

It may be not worth it because of how fast a TAS could theoretically convert coins into cash, though. You'd need about 3.3 million G to be get the most optimal kills, though that's probably a slight overshot due to the fact that you would want to use some number of ESM's to avoid enemy attack animations, etc. So, 3 million, give or take.

99 Vitality Rings and 99 loaves of Soru Bread give you about 2.8 million G, which is more than enough for Karisto Kingdom; this requires 108,900 coins, but due to the G you'd naturally get from boss fights, we can say we'd need 100,000 coins. In Sebucus, however, converting coins to cash is much less efficient, depending on how quickly you can choose a Light Lure / Med. Lure / Heavy Lure / Phoenix and say "yes", run to the shop, sell off, and repeat. We'd need to get 500,000 G to cheese out Xain (9,511 HP), Songi (12,888 - there'd be a trip to Ratayu to buy/sell to recharge here), Saryu (13,245 - that's one Point Card + two Kemaro) and Dohati (17,200 - 2 Point Cards).

But without a baseline on how fast buying items with coins is, I wouldn't be able to optimize a tool-assisted run on exactly how to go about this.

Edit: Right outside West Voz at 58:09. I think this is about 2 minutes faster than my previous attempt was - I think I was just outside the forest last time at around 1:00:00, so it's nice to know that I'm saving time with some of the little optimizations that I've been performing.

I can't think of anything offhand that is really important to test before the slot machine, except maybe if you knew some way to manipulate the random portion of how characters gain stat bonuses when their level increases.  Stat gains are partially fixed, but also have a random bonus from 0-2 points (0-8 for HP).  If you could manipulate certain stats - most importantly would be Noa's AGL and Vahn's MP - to have the best growths, it would save a good bit of time in the later parts of the run.  The biggest thing is that you'd want Vahn to have 192 MP as soon as possible, because that's the minimum required to use Evil Seru magic while wearing a Spirit Jewel.

It may be not worth it because of how fast a TAS could theoretically convert coins into cash, though.  You'd need about 3.3 million G to be get the most optimal kills, though that's probably a slight overshot due to the fact that you would want to use some number of ESM's to avoid enemy attack animations, etc.  So, 3 million, give or take.

99 Vitality Rings and 99 loaves of Soru Bread give you about 2.8 million G, which is more than enough for Karisto Kingdom; this requires 108,900 coins, but due to the G you'd naturally get from boss fights, we can say we'd need 100,000 coins.  In Sebucus, however, converting coins to cash is much less efficient, depending on how quickly you can choose a Light Lure / Med. Lure / Heavy Lure / Phoenix and say "yes", run to the shop, sell off, and repeat.  We'd need to get 500,000 G to cheese out Xain (9,511 HP), Songi (12,888 - there'd be a trip to Ratayu to buy/sell to recharge here), Saryu (13,245 - that's one Point Card + two Kemaro) and Dohati (17,200 - 2 Point Cards).

But without a baseline on how fast buying items with coins is, I wouldn't be able to optimize a tool-assisted run on exactly how to go about this.

Edit: Right outside West Voz at 58:09.  I think this is about 2 minutes faster than my previous attempt was - I think I was just outside the forest last time at around 1:00:00, so it's nice to know that I'm saving time with some of the little optimizations that I've been performing.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 01:55:21 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 01:52:16 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 01:47:10 pm

2015-02-01 01:46:47 pm

I am working on getting to the slots. Grinding to beat Vigurox2. Changing anything in ram except encounter value causes you to be unable to attack in battles. 3.5 hours so far. If I knew more about how ram works I am sure I could teleport there.

Edit: As far as manipulating stat gains, it is probably tied to the frame the last command is entered on the last enemy you level from.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 02:35:31 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 02:33:51 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 02:31:08 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 02:30:24 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 02:29:23 pm

2015-02-01 02:26:46 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

It's also worth noting that the fastest kill of Songi 1 is Theeder x2, Thunder Punch. Simple 3 turn kill, which is pretty straightforward as long as Songi doesn't use Hyper Wave on the first two turns (but he loves doing that, so...). Theeder deals ~390-430 damage, which will knock Songi down to double-digit HP for a fairly quick kill. I will say that it is far faster than grinding up to L6-7, or using Gimard or Zenoir due to the fact that Gala doesn't suffer an elemental damage penalty from casting non-Thunder spells. (Gala uses Fire, Wind, Earth, and Water spells at 85% power due to the elemental penalty.) For single-segment, grinding Theeder to L2-3 will get you toward a turn-2 kill, which is going to be a pretty consistent at L2 (430-480 damage) and almost assured at L3. (470 - 525 damage); Songi has a speed stat of 8, so even Gala's miserable base SPD at L1 is sufficient to guarantee that Gala attacks first.

Theeder L2 has a 50% absorption rate, which becomes 80% with the Ivory Book found in the valley near West Voz. Pretty consistent.

Here's the elemental table (note that ESM is classified as non-elemental damage, despite the one used by Cort being Dark element):

Vahn
Earth - 95%
Water - 40%
Fire - 100%
Wind - 70%
Lightning - 70%
Light - 85%
Dark - 85%
Non - 80%

Noa
Earth - 40%
Water - 95%
Fire - 70%
Wind - 100%
Lightning - 70%
Light - 85%
Dark - 85%
Non - 80%

Gala
Earth - 85%
Water - 85%
Fire - 85%
Wind - 85%
Lightning - 100%
Light - 95%
Dark - 60%
Non - 80%

If you've ever wondered why Vahn's Freed or Noa's Kemaro sucks so bad, there you go. They cast it at 40% power due to opposition element.

It's also worth noting that the fastest kill of Songi 1 is Theeder x2, Thunder Punch.  Simple 3 turn kill, which is pretty straightforward as long as Songi doesn't use Hyper Wave on the first two turns (but he loves doing that, so...).  Theeder deals ~390-430 damage, which will knock Songi down to double-digit HP for a fairly quick kill.  I will say that it is far faster than grinding up to L6-7, or using Gimard or Zenoir due to the fact that Gala doesn't suffer an elemental damage penalty from casting non-Thunder spells. (Gala uses Fire, Wind, Earth, and Water spells at 85% power due to the elemental penalty.)  For single-segment, grinding Theeder to L2-3 will get you toward a turn-2 kill, which is going to be a pretty consistent at L2 (430-480 damage) and almost assured at L3. (470 - 525 damage); Songi has a speed stat of 8, so even Gala's miserable base SPD at L1 is sufficient to guarantee that Gala attacks first.

Theeder L2 has a 50% absorption rate, which becomes 80% with the Ivory Book found in the valley near West Voz.  Pretty consistent.

Here's the elemental table (note that ESM is classified as non-elemental damage, despite the one used by Cort being Dark element):

Vahn
Earth - 95%
Water - 40%
Fire - 100%
Wind - 70%
Lightning - 70%
Light - 85%
Dark - 85%
Non - 80%

Noa
Earth - 40%
Water - 95%
Fire - 70%
Wind - 100%
Lightning - 70%
Light - 85%
Dark - 85%
Non - 80%

Gala
Earth - 85%
Water - 85%
Fire - 85%
Wind - 85%
Lightning - 100%
Light - 95%
Dark - 60%
Non - 80%

If you've ever wondered why Vahn's Freed or Noa's Kemaro sucks so bad, there you go.  They cast it at 40% power due to opposition element.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 03:41:52 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 03:37:03 pm

2015-02-01 03:14:01 pm

Edit: Finally at the slot machine.

We want all fists or all feet?

Drifting Skies

2015-02-01 03:47:44 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

All fists. That's 3 Bonus Games; All Feet is 1 bonus game.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 03:52:44 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 03:51:47 pm

2015-02-01 03:49:05 pm

Rough framecount
0 load machine
230 start spin
30(260)earliest stop reels
17(277)start new spin

The interface runs at 60fps, but input is still 30, except sometimes 60.
testing for patterns and bonus game time

Drifting Skies

2015-02-01 03:54:01 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

It's possible to time the reels even in real-time as the reels move in patterned cycles. Similarly, you can time the bonus game to always get 1000 coins, though both of these aren't exactly consistent even to the skilled player. My speculation is that it's going to almost always be advantageous to get 1000 coins, due to the time it would take to trigger a new bonus game compared with the time needed to manipulate 1,000 coins. For an actual run, you'd need to do this around 40 times to get the coins for the whole run.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 05:30:20 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 05:15:54 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 05:14:30 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 05:11:24 pm

2015-02-01 03:55:49 pm

EDIT:
59317 load slots interface
59547 start 1st NORMAL spin
59577 stop square reel (earliest stop also)
59588 stop circle reel
59609 stop cross reel
59732 start 1st BONUS game
59785 earliest stop
59803 stop circle
59808 stop square
59824 stop cross
60027 start 2nd BONUS game
60080 stop square reel (earliest stop also)
60089 stop cross reel
60098 stop circle reel (2 frame window to stop last reel)
60301 start 3rd BONUS game
60354 stop square reel(earliest possible also)(2 frame window)
60363 stop cross reel
60372 stop circle reel
60575 start 2nd NORMAL spin
60628 (earliest possible stop)
60631 stop circle reel
60656 stop square reel
60657 stop cross reel
60781 start 4th BONUS game
60834 (earliest stop)
60857 stop square
60867 stop circle
60873 stop cross (3 frame window, weird)
61077 start 5th BONUS
61130 stop square reel
61139 stop cross reel
61148 stop circle reel
61351 start 6th BONUS
61404 stop square reel
61413 stop cross reel
61422 stop circle reel
61625 triangle to escape (or start 3rd normal spin)
61626 down+cross to exit machine interface
62156 regain control
62159 talk to vendor
62162 skip dialog
62170 skip dialog
62199 down+cross “no”
62235 skip dialog
62259 skip dialog
62287 cross (yes)
62416 cursor control(vendor)

Pretty tired now. Maybe I'll format that later.
Questions:
1. Which item do I buy with the tokens?
2. Is the weapon shop the closest place to vendor?
3. What do I buy with the money I make to actually add points?

5 hours getting to the slot machine and 2 hours recording slot machine behavior is enough for one day.

EDIT2: I guess I never even answered your item buying question. Heavy Lures are 10coins/200gold, and we need 500,000gold. That is 26 round trips to the weapon shop. Phoenix are 50coin/800gold, 7 round trips.
I might calculate the slots coin/minute or something.

EDIT:
59317 load slots interface
59547 start 1st NORMAL spin
59577 stop square reel (earliest stop also)
59588 stop circle reel
59609 stop cross reel
59732 start 1st BONUS game
59785 earliest stop
59803 stop circle
59808 stop square
59824 stop cross
60027 start 2nd BONUS game
60080 stop square reel (earliest stop also)
60089 stop cross reel
60098 stop circle reel (2 frame window to stop last reel)
60301 start 3rd BONUS game
60354 stop square reel(earliest possible also)(2 frame window)
60363 stop cross reel
60372 stop circle reel
60575 start 2nd NORMAL spin
60628 (earliest possible stop)
60631 stop circle reel
60656 stop square reel
60657 stop cross reel
60781 start 4th BONUS game
60834 (earliest stop)
60857 stop square
60867 stop circle
60873 stop cross (3 frame window, weird)
61077 start 5th BONUS
61130 stop square reel
61139 stop cross reel
61148 stop circle reel
61351 start 6th BONUS
61404 stop square reel
61413 stop cross reel
61422 stop circle reel
61625 triangle to escape (or start 3rd normal spin)
61626 down+cross to exit machine interface
62156 regain control
62159 talk to vendor
62162 skip dialog
62170 skip dialog
62199 down+cross “no”
62235 skip dialog
62259 skip dialog
62287 cross (yes)
62416 cursor control(vendor)

Pretty tired now. Maybe I'll format that later.
Questions:
1. Which item do I buy with the tokens?
2. Is the weapon shop the closest place to vendor?
3. What do I buy with the money I make to actually add points?

5 hours getting to the slot machine and 2 hours recording slot machine behavior is enough for one day.

EDIT2: I guess I never even answered your item buying question. Heavy Lures are 10coins/200gold, and we need 500,000gold. That is 26 round trips to the weapon shop. Phoenix are 50coin/800gold, 7 round trips. 
I might calculate the slots coin/minute or something.

Drifting Skies

2015-02-01 05:51:38 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

You'll want to buy

- War Soul (1 time purchase) - we want to put this on Noa to max out her arts damage output, which will potentially save a lot of time in several places. It also sells for 30,000 G, which is nice.
- Spirit Jewel (1 time purchase) - this enables us to use ESM at 192 MP instead of 255, which makes it useful throughout Karisto, not just at the very end of the game.

As for what else to buy, that's going to depend on how quickly you can purchase items. Considering the delay in inputs and the feasibility of how fast we can play the game with our puny human reflexes, a human speedrunner would buy Phoenixes. They sell for 800 (or 16 G per coin). The Heavy Lure (sells for 200, 20 G/coin), Med. Lure (sells for 150, 30 G/coin) and Light Lure (100, 50G/coin) give better conversion of coins to money, but because the items have to be bought one-at-a-time, it's a slower conversion of time to money (which is the ultimate goal).

Depending on how fast you can purchase, it would probably be optimal to buy 99 of both Heavy Lures and Phoenixes during one trip

Technically, we can get away with a little less than 500K G because there are some random forced battles, Dohati only has 17,200 HP (so we only need that many points), Xain has 9,511 (we can use a Frost Breath from Noa to get in a little extra damage, so we can get away with 8,900 or so there, and so forth. Heck, with Vahn and Gala both needing Kemaro for optimal Saryu kill, we can probably get away with even less - maybe 10,000 for Saryu and 13,500 for Dohati - less still if Gala can use ESM by that point, in which case the number is only 10,000. But I am not sure and won't be without seeing the damage tables.

Notably, the TAS can also manipulate the 38% random drop of a Lost Grail on Saryu, which sells for 30,000 G. Given that we have to get a double Kemaro absorb for Saryu, I don't bank on it for real-time.

We absolutely NEED (must have, non-negotiable) 3x Ebony Jewel, which you can get in Underground Octam. 2x Earth Jewel will save tons of manipulation frames on the Kemaro x2 fight in Ratayu and are well worth it. It's probably worth getting Noa some weapons and leg armor for all characters to make it easier and faster to run (fewer manipulation frames all around), but this should be done in Underground Octam since there's better equipment there than in Vidna. As for other things, we're basically going to buy things just to resell them and buy again, and repeat as needed. That way we can go from 20 G / Point to effectively 10 (since we can only resell for half price); this halves the number of coins we need, as we do need somewhere around 40,000 points for Sebucus (after this, we'll use the rest of our coins in the Sol Muscle Dome, where we can get far faster item buying times, since we have Soru Bread (100 coins, sells for 3,000 G) and Vitality Rings (1000 coins, sells for 25,000 G).

Other than the non-negotiables (Ebony Jewel, a second Earth Jewel [there's one in East Voz], leg armor, and a weapon for Noa in Underground Octam), we just want to buy & sell back as fast as possible. While the weapons shop is marginally closer, the items shop is far preferred, since you can select to buy 99 of an item at once, whereas weapons and armor can only be bought one-at-a-time, which is really slow. I suggest you just buy the most expensive item at the items shop in the largest quantity possible, then buy and sell back as quickly as you can. We don't actually need much of anything itself, but we do need those delicious points. We probably strongly want to buy armor in Sol Tower in order to survive the endgame bosses (who hit like trucks even with Ebony Jewels), but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
-----------

Anyway, still trying to manipulate a good Viguro x2 fight on my end. At the East Voz save point at 1:13:17. Getting the god luck, or even confuse + annihilate is really uncommon. Feels like a 1/10,000 odds, even though I objectively know the god luck is 1/256.

You'll want to buy

- War Soul (1 time purchase) - we want to put this on Noa to max out her arts damage output, which will potentially save a lot of time in several places.  It also sells for 30,000 G, which is nice.
- Spirit Jewel (1 time purchase) - this enables us to use ESM at 192 MP instead of 255, which makes it useful throughout Karisto, not just at the very end of the game.

As for what else to buy, that's going to depend on how quickly you can purchase items.  Considering the delay in inputs and the feasibility of how fast we can play the game with our puny human reflexes, a human speedrunner would buy Phoenixes.  They sell for 800 (or 16 G per coin).  The Heavy Lure (sells for 200, 20 G/coin), Med. Lure (sells for 150, 30 G/coin) and Light Lure (100, 50G/coin) give better conversion of coins to money, but because the items have to be bought one-at-a-time, it's a slower conversion of time to money (which is the ultimate goal).

Depending on how fast you can purchase, it would probably be optimal to buy 99 of both Heavy Lures and Phoenixes during one trip

Technically, we can get away with a little less than 500K G because there are some random forced battles, Dohati only has 17,200 HP (so we only need that many points), Xain has 9,511 (we can use a Frost Breath from Noa to get in a little extra damage, so we can get away with 8,900 or so there, and so forth.  Heck, with Vahn and Gala both needing Kemaro for optimal Saryu kill, we can probably get away with even less - maybe 10,000 for Saryu and 13,500 for Dohati - less still if Gala can use ESM by that point, in which case the number is only 10,000.  But I am not sure and won't be without seeing the damage tables.

Notably, the TAS can also manipulate the 38% random drop of a Lost Grail on Saryu, which sells for 30,000 G.  Given that we have to get a double Kemaro absorb for Saryu, I don't bank on it for real-time.

We absolutely NEED (must have, non-negotiable) 3x Ebony Jewel, which you can get in Underground Octam.  2x Earth Jewel will save tons of manipulation frames on the Kemaro x2 fight in Ratayu and are well worth it.  It's probably worth getting Noa some weapons and leg armor for all characters to make it easier and faster to run (fewer manipulation frames all around), but this should be done in Underground Octam since there's better equipment there than in Vidna.  As for other things, we're basically going to buy things just to resell them and buy again, and repeat as needed.  That way we can go from 20 G / Point to effectively 10 (since we can only resell for half price); this halves the number of coins we need, as we do need somewhere around 40,000 points for Sebucus (after this, we'll use the rest of our coins in the Sol Muscle Dome, where we can get far faster item buying times, since we have Soru Bread (100 coins, sells for 3,000 G) and Vitality Rings (1000 coins, sells for 25,000 G).

Other than the non-negotiables (Ebony Jewel, a second Earth Jewel [there's one in East Voz], leg armor, and a weapon for Noa in Underground Octam), we just want to buy & sell back as fast as possible.  While the weapons shop is marginally closer, the items shop is far preferred, since you can select to buy 99 of an item at once, whereas weapons and armor can only be bought one-at-a-time, which is really slow.  I suggest you just buy the most expensive item at the items shop in the largest quantity possible, then buy and sell back as quickly as you can.  We don't actually need much of anything itself, but we do need those delicious points.  We probably strongly want to buy armor in Sol Tower in order to survive the endgame bosses (who hit like trucks even with Ebony Jewels), but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
-----------

Anyway, still trying to manipulate a good Viguro x2 fight on my end.  At the East Voz save point at 1:13:17.  Getting the god luck, or even confuse + annihilate is really uncommon.  Feels like a 1/10,000 odds, even though I objectively know the god luck is 1/256.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:04:13 pm

2015-02-01 05:58:01 pm

Frames per round:
1a. NORMAL 185
1. BONUS 295
2. BONUS 274
3. BONUS 274
4a. NORMAL 206
4. BONUS 296
5. BONUS 274
6. BONUS 274

259.75 frames per round. 753 coins per round. 2.89 coins per frame
We can hold:
79200G of Phoenix
19800G Heavy Lure
14850G of Medium Lure
9900G of Light Lure
123750G per trip = 5 trips

24750Coin for Phoenix
4950Coin for Heavy Lure
2475Coin Medium Lure
990Coin Light Lure
33165 Coins for 618750gold

11476 frames or 3.2minutes to make just the coin.
Still need to time the 4.5 round trips to the vendor. And the single item vendoring will be substantial.

EDIT: That is true about buying and reselling.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 06:09:19 pm

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-01 06:07:46 pm

2015-02-01 06:05:40 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

You can probably plan on getting away with as little as 410,000 G and not be in too deep of a pond. You need 52,833 Points if you want to kill all four Sebucus bosses remaining using only the card, but with incidental damage, you can get away around 40,000 Points, but we have to buy some items to use, so we only get 20 to 1 conversion on that money, as opposed to 10/1 if we buy and resell (and repeat). There's also the Lost Grail manipulation and some G you'll automatically get from beating the bosses, so I think you can plan on 3 round trips if you can buy a few elixirs to buffer the G up a bit; there's also some items in treasure chests that sell for a decent amount and aren't too far out of the way if we need them.

With that said, even if we need 33,000 coins (probably going to be closer to 24,000 or so), we still need an additional 100,000 coins or so for Karisto bosses (maybe less, I don't quite know the number after considering incidental damage.). The non-TAS run actually only needs about 27,000 coins total, but this is because it's so much slower to get coins without tool assistance that Point Card abuse no longer is the optimal strategy for most bosses.

You can probably plan on getting away with as little as 410,000 G and not be in too deep of a pond.  You need 52,833 Points if you want to kill all four Sebucus bosses remaining using only the card, but with incidental damage, you can get away around 40,000 Points, but we have to buy some items to use, so we only get 20 to 1 conversion on that money, as opposed to 10/1 if we buy and resell (and repeat).  There's also the Lost Grail manipulation and some G you'll automatically get from beating the bosses, so I think you can plan on 3 round trips if you can buy a few elixirs to buffer the G up a bit; there's also some items in treasure chests that sell for a decent amount and aren't too far out of the way if we need them.

With that said, even if we need 33,000 coins (probably going to be closer to 24,000 or so), we still need an additional 100,000 coins or so for Karisto bosses (maybe less, I don't quite know the number after considering incidental damage.).  The non-TAS run actually only needs about 27,000 coins total, but this is because it's so much slower to get coins without tool assistance that Point Card abuse no longer is the optimal strategy for most bosses.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:44:09 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:43:56 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:40:53 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:40:07 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:38:21 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:37:33 pm

exileut: 2015-02-01 06:36:47 pm

2015-02-01 06:08:55 pm

It looks like 45 seconds to buy 99 coin vendor items. (23 frames each) 2673 frames
Light Lure time could be spent getting 7700 more coins (154 phoenix)

Rough:
602 frames pressing exit coin vendor to talk to item vendor
631 frames from talk to vendor, sell 99 item stack, exit vendor window
9108 frames for 7 one way trips selling one 99 item stack 4 times

EDIT93:
Too many numbers. I don't think it is possible to actually route this thing.
I might have enough in this mess of posts to calculate which combination is faster: farming coins, buying 99 of some/all items, trips to the item shop.

Taking a break.

Drifting Skies

2015-02-01 07:25:53 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

It's best just to get all the initial G you need (about 410,000, and considering you'll need to save ~40,000 left over for Octam post-Xain) and then buy and sell the item stacks at the end.

How many frames does it take to go from exiting the menu at the coin vendor to dumping all the items you bought (but NOT rebuying anything) to re-entering the coin vendor's item selection screen a second time? If I have that number, I can give you a good answer.

What I will say is that the optimal strategy is either going to involve 5 round trips or 4, depending on how many frames it takes, with the cutoff being 5800 frames for the round trip. Under that, it's best to do it in 4 round trips, otherwise it will require 5. Only buying phoenixes may be faster if the trip is extremely quick (under 1000 frames) over a six round trip cycle, but I know from experience it takes more than 20 seconds to round trip this.

Surprisingly, after the phoenix, the Medium Lure is the next best option, taking into consideration both the coin acquisition time as well as the 23 frames expended to buy a single item. The heavy and light lures are both a little slower than the medium. To acquire 410,000 G, you'll probably want to do the 5 trip cycle, always buying 99 phoenixes, but buying 99 Medium Lures during the first trip.

You'll do all the re-buying and selling in one trip after you get all the G.

It's best just to get all the initial G you need (about 410,000, and considering you'll need to save ~40,000 left over for Octam post-Xain) and then buy and sell the item stacks at the end.

How many frames does it take to go from exiting the menu at the coin vendor to dumping all the items you bought (but NOT rebuying anything) to re-entering the coin vendor's item selection screen a second time?  If I have that number, I can give you a good answer.

What I will say is that the optimal strategy is either going to involve 5 round trips or 4, depending on how many frames it takes, with the cutoff being 5800 frames for the round trip.  Under that, it's best to do it in 4 round trips, otherwise it will require 5.  Only buying phoenixes may be faster if the trip is extremely quick (under 1000 frames) over a six round trip cycle, but I know from experience it takes more than 20 seconds to round trip this.

Surprisingly, after the phoenix, the Medium Lure is the next best option, taking into consideration both the coin acquisition time as well as the 23 frames expended to buy a single item.  The heavy and light lures are both a little slower than the medium.  To acquire 410,000 G, you'll probably want to do the 5 trip cycle, always buying 99 phoenixes, but buying 99 Medium Lures during the first trip.

You'll do all the re-buying and selling in one trip after you get all the G.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-02 12:03:57 am

2015-02-01 11:54:48 pm

Around 1835 frames from exiting the menu at the coin vendor to selling 1 stack 99 at item shop and reopening coin vendor.
Is one trip possible buying 99 of all 8 items? 14510 frames saved with .5 vs 4.5 round trips.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-02 12:20:02 am

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-02 12:16:47 am

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-02 12:12:27 am

2015-02-02 12:10:50 am

steak Steak STEAK!!!

It's going to be much slower. I did some calculations earlier, based on your average rate of coin counting and the number of frames it takes to purchase an item (23) from the coin vendor. In order to get 410,000 coins:

Constraint:
G = 410,000

Minimize Time:
Time = 2.89 coins / frame

Sufficient Coins obtained to get 410,000 G.

Phoenix = 50 coins, 800 G
H. L. = 10 coins, 200 G
M. L. = 5 coins, 150 G
L. L. = 2 coins, 50 G.

Buying 1 item = 23 frames
If # of any item > 99, lose ~1835 frames

Min: 2.89*[50P + 10H + 5M + 2L] + 23*(P + H + M + L)

Frame cost:
Phoenix: 167.5 (edited in)
H. Lure: 51.9
M. Lure: 37.45
L. Lure: 28.78

Penalties: lose ~ 1835 for every >99 you buy.

subject to: 800P + 200H + 150M + 100L > 410,000
G per frame (more is better)
Phoenix: 4.776
H. Lure: 3.854
M. Lure: 4.005
L. Lure: 3.475

Best to buy Phoenixes, then M. Lures, then H. Lures, then L. Lures.

Total cost (in frames) to buy 99 of each:
Phoenix: 16,582.5
H. Lure: 5,138
M. Lure: 3,708
L. Lure: 2,849

G obtained from buying 99 of each:
Phoenix: 79,200
H. Lure: 19,800
M. Lure: 14,850
L. Lure: 9,900

Optimal given 6 trips:
512 Phoenix.
cost: 85760 + 11010 = 96770

Optimal given 5 trips:
495 Phoenix + 93 M. Lure. Preferred over 6 trips.
Cost in frames: 82913 + 3483 + 9175 = 95,570.5

Optimal on 4 trips:
396 Phoenix + 396 M. Lure + 169 H. Lures
Cost in frames: 66330 + 14832 + 8771 + 7340 = 97,273 frames.

Not possible in 3 or fewer trips without buying wildly overpriced items.

Therefore, you should get 495 Phoenixes + 93 Medium Lures, which will cost you roughly 95,800 frames to do all this, plus a marginal amount of time to buy & resell items (a few hundred frames is my guess).

This should lead to a reduction of about 10 minutes with Xain, 15 with Songi 2, and 4-5 minutes each with Saryu and Dohati (sadly, Kemaro is pretty darn powerful, so you're not gaining tons of time after Songi 2), plus any time you would need to grind to make the battles more survivable and/or any luck manipulation you would need to do. I'd say that the net saving from the Point Card is no less than 40,000 frames, and possibly as high as 60,000, so it's well worth it.

EDIT: You can also try going out the back door to the weapon shop if you are just going to sell and only go to the item vendor for the last trip on the way out. He's a little closer, so that could save a few hundred frames each trip. You don't want to sell too much right away, since if you put on too many points against Xain, you'll put those last few hundred to waste.

It's going to be much slower.  I did some calculations earlier, based on your average rate of coin counting and the number of frames it takes to purchase an item (23) from the coin vendor.  In order to get 410,000 coins:

Constraint:
G = 410,000

Minimize Time:
Time = 2.89 coins / frame

Sufficient Coins obtained to get 410,000 G.

Phoenix = 50 coins, 800 G
H. L. = 10 coins, 200 G
M. L. = 5 coins, 150 G
L. L. = 2 coins, 50 G.

Buying 1 item = 23 frames
If # of any item > 99, lose ~1835 frames

Min: 2.89*[50P + 10H + 5M + 2L] + 23*(P + H + M + L)

Frame cost: 
Phoenix: 167.5 (edited in)
H. Lure: 51.9
M. Lure: 37.45
L. Lure: 28.78

Penalties: lose ~ 1835 for every >99 you buy.

subject to: 800P + 200H + 150M + 100L > 410,000
G per frame (more is better)
Phoenix: 4.776
H. Lure: 3.854
M. Lure: 4.005
L. Lure: 3.475

Best to buy Phoenixes, then M. Lures, then H. Lures, then L. Lures.

Total cost (in frames) to buy 99 of each:
Phoenix: 16,582.5
H. Lure: 5,138
M. Lure: 3,708
L. Lure: 2,849

G obtained from buying 99 of each:
Phoenix: 79,200
H. Lure: 19,800
M. Lure: 14,850
L. Lure: 9,900

Optimal given 6 trips: 
512 Phoenix.
cost: 85760 + 11010 = 96770

Optimal given 5 trips:
495 Phoenix + 93 M. Lure. Preferred over 6 trips.
Cost in frames: 82913 + 3483 + 9175 = 95,570.5

Optimal on 4 trips:
396 Phoenix + 396 M. Lure + 169 H. Lures
Cost in frames: 66330 + 14832 + 8771 + 7340 = 97,273 frames.

Not possible in 3 or fewer trips without buying wildly overpriced items.

Therefore, you should get 495 Phoenixes + 93 Medium Lures, which will cost you roughly 95,800 frames to do all this, plus a marginal amount of time to buy & resell items (a few hundred frames is my guess).

This should lead to a reduction of about 10 minutes with Xain, 15 with Songi 2, and 4-5 minutes each with Saryu and Dohati (sadly, Kemaro is pretty darn powerful, so you're not gaining tons of time after Songi 2), plus any time you would need to grind to make the battles more survivable and/or any luck manipulation you would need to do.  I'd say that the net saving from the Point Card is no less than 40,000 frames, and possibly as high as 60,000, so it's well worth it.

EDIT: You can also try going out the back door to the weapon shop if you are just going to sell and only go to the item vendor for the last trip on the way out.  He's a little closer, so that could save a few hundred frames each trip.  You don't want to sell too much right away, since if you put on too many points against Xain, you'll put those last few hundred to waste.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-02 12:34:07 am

2015-02-02 12:24:47 am

Buying 99 boost, elixir, elixir, elixir, phoenix is 50000 coin, or 415,000 gold (I think) 17301 frames of slots, 11385 to buy 495 items, 601 to item vendor once.

29287 frames for one trip. Seems 3x faster. Is my math even close?

23 frames spent buying an item could be 66coin from slot machine. Not including round trip time.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-02 12:37:25 am

2015-02-02 12:36:17 am

steak Steak STEAK!!!

You're not far off, but my math was wrong. I said 2.89 coins / frame up top but I was calculating it as though it were 1 coin per 2.89 frames. So, I'm wildly off in my numbers, which means I need to recalculate. Whatever is going on, the coin harvesting is going to save way more than 40,000 frames. Probably closer to 80,000.

exileut

Edit history:

exileut: 2015-02-02 12:52:31 am

2015-02-02 12:44:41 am

Your 5 round is 8725 frames of slots, 13524 to buy items, 7941 in trips. 30190, plus marginal from selling 93 more items. 29287 for my single trip.
Edit: actually 115 frames saved from only needing 490 items for exactly 410,000. Slots estimate on both isn't super accurate (I think?) since it is in rounds of 1000coin.
So 29172 frames one trip expensive items.

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-02-02 12:54:52 am

2015-02-02 12:51:39 am

steak Steak STEAK!!!

I think it might be faster to go:

99 Phoenix + 297 Elixir
99 Phoenix + 39 Elixir

410,400 G

36,780 coins (12,726 frames)

534 items (12,282)

1 Round trip + 1 partial trip: 2436

Total: 27,444 frames. This seems better still.