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TheMaxican: 2012-02-21 01:52:00 am
Break through the final confusion
Thanks as always, guys!

@BlueGlass: Yeah, I've had to make a couple of those jumps already (Segment 15 was an example that was FULL of 'em), and I definitely hope that I'm making them seem a lot easier than they actually are - that particular jump cost me at least one good attempt IIRC. And yeah, the timing for that flying guy is pretty tricky if you're trying not to waste too much time (I've run into him plenty of times), so that's why I got a bit nervous and jumped early. But yeah, I'm glad at how well everything worked out.

@Exo: I always aim to please! With Bombs and all of that health, damage boosts are going to be the way to go (actually, I'm now realizing that I'm going to have some HEAVY Bomb usage throughout the run at this rate!). Yeah, the free time thing is a bit tricky... but hopefully most of my weekends will be free from now on.

@Anon: Ah yes, I'm a big fan of Song of Curry as well. Smiley I don't think the speed run gets a lot of Chamber of Life action, though (2 segments to go through most of it and then random visits during the Mantras part). But still, good stuff.

Anyway, just coming by to say that it's looking like I'll be able to give Segment 24 a serious shot on Monday, so hopefully I'll be coming by later with good news!

---------

EDIT: Phew... it took a LOT of attempts, but here it is! Hey BlueGlass, if you liked the jump from the last segment then you're going to LOVE the one in the Death Seal room!

Segment 24:


Another 3 1/2 minute segment, this wasn't quite the randomness-filled ordeal that Segment 23 was, but this still ended up being much more difficult than I thought it would be due to some very difficult maneuvers. This actually reminded me a lot of Segment 15 - even though I still would say Segment 15 was much harder, it should hopefully show the amount of effort required here. This particular attempt had pretty much the best luck I've ever gotten, along with quite a few close shaves that should make it a fun watch. I had a few sub-optimal parts but definitely nothing major, and I nailed all the important parts which make me very happy with how this turned out.

The segments starts with the usual grinding in the Tower of the Goddess, with some intense Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery to Maze of Galious + Seal of El Giza action which, as you can probably tell, ate up a good number of the attempts. Smiley

Endless Corridor as a whole went optimally. The first screen has a VERY close shave with that second bat!
Something to note on the third screen - first off, when I jump on that jar, you can jump on top of it without running in to it (so that the jump doesn't slow down) but it's too precise for me to bother, since it doesn't save much time and you usually end up hitting your head on the ledge above. Secondly, that red camel thing LOVES to start blasting away at me and then I have to do some insane dodging to try to avoid getting hit. Luckily it doesn't happen too often. Anyway, other than that everything went great, especially all the weapon switching.

Ah yes, the Death Seal room. It's the randomest part of this segment and easily the part that caused the most restarts. This WOULD have been a non-issue with the Lamp of Time (well, except for that insane jump that I'll go into in a bit), but it's much better saved for later in the darkness. Anyway, two things about this room: the enemies, as you can imagine, are freaking annoying and impossible to avoid if they choose to charge at you. In particular, the one in the bottom-left is GUARANTEED to hit you as you come up if he doesn't jump out of the way early. Luckily, that's what he did here. And then you get to see probably the hardest jump I've had to do so far, which is not only precise in timing but also positioning. Yeah... I hope it's impressive, because it ate up a bunch of attempts, haha...

Then we move on the Pyramid of the Sun, which also went great. Everything up to the Coin jar you should already know from before. Note that at this point I try to position myself so that I kill the flying thing on the screen below - this is because if that thing chooses to go down or down-left, it WILL hit me and end the segment. So I stab right where it WOULD go to stop it from doing so. Note that here I actually missed which was ok since that means it has chosen a path that won't get in my way. Also, I get hit right after this by the OTHER flying thing but luckily, thanks to the elevator, it ends up being not much of an issue.
Oh, another note about that room is that I can actually stop that platform from crumbling if I land on it JUST right, which would save some time later when I come back for the Mantra stuff. But it's so precise that it's not really worth doing since it doesn't save THAT much time (you just have to make it to that elevator in time anyway).
On the next screen, the flying thing decides he HAS to hit me and chooses to pepper the whole screen with bullets, so of course one of them hits me. This counts as the only real enemy hit that wastes time in this segment, but it's no biggie since it didn't really waste much time (plus, I'm lucky I only got hit once with all those bullets on the screen!).
I never get tired of the jump to get the Talisman. Smiley Ironically enough, this is probably the only part of the segment that's EASIER than it looks. If you place that jump just right, the timing works out so that flying head doesn't have much of a chance of hitting you. So I fully take advantage of that here for awesome effect.
Last thing of note is yet another close shave with a bat near the end. Good thing too, since the bats in this screen LOVE to run into you.

Alright, now it's time for the complete darkness of the Chamber of Extinction. I am TERRIBLE at this part (understandably so, hopefully), since the jumps here are quite tricky so it's extremely hard to make them without seeing where the ground is. That said, this went perfectly - the only small mistake I made (falling off the ledge in the first screen) was cancelled out by the damage boost from the bat. The mural part went perfectly, which NEVER happens. Finally, I use my Lamp of Time in the Life Jewel room because it's not really an option - those flying gargoyle things are ridiculously hard to avoid, so I'm happy to make it a non-issue. This room is actually quite tricky to navigate in the dark, and it goes great here - I checked my last jump up to the Life Jewel because the ledge underneath it juts out quite a bit, and I've lost a few attempts hitting my head on it and falling down the left side.
Now I Grail over to the bright side to fight Palenque, and this screen has my final mini-mistake. Actually, this one requires a bit of explanation - the position of that elevator changes as soon as you enter the Chamber of Extinction, so it's basically impossible to predict where it'll be when you Grail here. So once you get here, you have a split second in which to decide whether or not you'll take the elevator or try to avoid it - if it's in the wrong position, it'll raise you too high and force you into the screen above, or otherwise it'll just get in your way. So, what happened what I actually hesitated - I was GOING to take the elevator but realized at the last second that it probably was too late and would force me to the screen above, so I cut off my jump but cut it too short and accidentally slipped off the ledge. Anyway, this counts as only the second real time-waster, but, again, it's no biggie since it's not much of a drop - and plus, I'd probably have to wait a bit for it to get out of the way before I could make the big jump up to the ledge anyway, so it's all good!
Luckily, for the 100% run I get to use the Maze of Galious to shortcut me to the Palenque section. You also get to enjoy a cool graphical glitch I discovered for a split second as I leave the Maze. Smiley
The path to Palenque has lots of big stairs, so I get to use Bomb boosts to their fullest. Also, the jump to the Coin block after the first fall is pretty hard to pull off (especially this late in the segment), so I'm happy it went great here. Oh, and note that skeleton that's ABOUT to hit me as I leave - he's another one that loves to end attempts.

Alright, the last thing left is to talk about Palenque. Palenque's nice since beating him fast is extremely easy AND there's no randomness involved at all. However, to beat him OPTIMALLY is a bit tricky. First of all, you can't just shoot Flares immediately since he's not vulnerable until about a second into the fight intro. Then, even if you time it perfectly, you can only shoot 5 volleys (or 15 Flares - there's 3 Flares per volley thanks to the Ring) before the game automatically pushes you to the left - then you have to catch up to him and hit him with two more Flares before he's gone for good. Since he's moving to the right as well, I found that you have to start shooting a bit later than your reflexes would tell you. Anyway, I finished him off with my first volley, which makes this an optimal fight and definitely makes me very happy.


Well, that's that! I'm happy I got to get in two segments this week. I likely won't be able to start Segment 25 until the weekend after this next one, but in any case, I'll keep you all posted!
Sandbagging
Wow max you're on fire this week haha. Great job with both segments Smiley
Awesome luck manipulation on the death seal room <3

P.S.: Bomb boosts T_T
Yep yep yep!
Excellent job again, Maxican!  I really enjoyed this one.  And that death seal room... just by looking at it gives me an idea of how crazy that jump was; based on Lemeza's movement, seems you have to delay it until the last possible moment before he starts falling.  Then the birds in Sun Temple went crazy trying to hit you.

The life jewel room was the perfect spot for the time lamp, too.  The only other semi-reasonable way to deal with those gargoyles would be a midair whipping with Castlevania+Mahjong Wizard, but the switch would take too long.  If it were humanly possible to dodge them, the time lamp could be used on the way to Palenque to keep from having to kill those two nagas.

As for the rest of the segment, aren't you glad I thought up bomb boosts when I did =)  Palenque was neat too; I didn't know you could get fives sets of flares in on him.  And I love how you positioned yourself properly without even seeming to try.

Great work as always, and I'm definitely looking forward to more when you get around to it.
Metroidvanias are God Tier
Loved that Palenque fight Smiley
It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!
Okay! So, I learned something valuable and I am skipping the mace whip. Doing the puzzle wastes so much time, and on top of that with the route change to getting the knife damage boost there's no reason for it. Mother actually takes the same damage from the standard whip as she does from the mace whip, the only real difference is I need to get in enemy's faces a lot more, but the time spent getting the mace whip is definitely not worth it. Figured I'd go ahead and share that Mother's HP in the final form doesn't matter haha.
Yep yep yep!
Wow, seriously?  That's sort of crazy.  Keep in mind though that Sakit will be a good bit longer now, you can no longer use the mace room as a shortcut, and you'll be using the axe on the floating enemies for the model plane.  The significant decrease in range also means it'll be a lot harder to not get hit around by the late-game minibosses.
It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!
Yeah, the range decrease is a bit difficult to adjust to but otherwise it's at least a bit faster, I need to practice one cycling the flying enemies in the goddess tower but that's not too hard cause I have a practice save at that very point.
Edit history:
BlueGlass: 2012-03-04 05:03:31 am
Yep yep yep!
One thing worth checking is holding off on Sakit until you have the knife rom combo.  It doesn't take long to reach him from the Infinite Corridor warp point, and if a one-cycle with the unpowered knife is even possible, it would require perfect stab rhythm while jumping.

Awesome find, BTW.  Anon is doubtless very happy.
It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!
Haha it actually came from a mistake actually, I tried solving the puzzle and was watching a stream on the side so I absent-mindedly screwed it up and just continued practicing cause it was mostly route practice anyways. I COULD hold off on Sakit, but one arm drop into the ground still kills him even without the knife combo, it's still worth testing but the walk back could negate the time saved anyhow, either that or it'd be pretty close.
Yep yep yep!
Okay, I guess a one-cycle on him isn't as hard as I thought.  I was comparing it to low%, where a two-cycle is needed, but I guess I didn't take into account just how much of a difference the gauntlet makes.  If one-cycling him isn't a problem, then yeah, just take him out on the way to Infinite Corridor.
Metroidvanias are God Tier
I thought I said mothers HP didn't matter in the final phase a long time ago. However if it's the same for the wii version I wonder if it would be beneficial to use the knife on her early in the fight. Anyways it's still interesting with the whole skipping the mace thing, didn't expect that to happen at all really.
Yep yep yep!
It's possible you did say it, and we all just missed it or didn't think of the implications, or maybe you said it in chat.

And yeah, great thinking on skipping the mace Jman; it's definitely faster.
Break through the final confusion
Hmm, yeah for some reason, this is the first time I'm hearing about this too (or at least, I don't REMEMBER hearing it...). Good to know!

Skipping the Mace is a bit crazy, definitely didn't see that coming. Great find!

Ah, another completely random time saver (which you all might already know) that I'm not sure you can take advantage of, Jman (I'm thinking Anon definitely can't): in the 30-second wait room in the Twins' Labyrinth (to unlock the Baphomet Ankh), you don't have to kill the witches, AND it doesn't matter if they knock you around the room - as long as you don't press any buttons for 30 seconds, the quest will be satisfied. Again, it's an extremely small amount of time saved, and I'm not sure you can manage getting hit repeatedly for 30 seconds; then again, they don't do much damage AND there's a Life Jewel right outside Baphomet's room.
I'll be showing this off when I post Segment 25, hopefully today but we'll see...

Ah yes, and the usual thanks to all of you who posted kind words about Segment 24. Smiley Actually, BlueGlass, that insane jump in the Death Seal room? Turns out I need to make that EXACT same jump when I get the Map for the Shrine of the Mother (since the room configuration is the same). Fun!
Metroidvanias are God Tier
I thought the whole witch thing was well known, I'm pretty sure at one time it said so on the wiki. I was planning on splitting the twin labyrinth into a few segments anyway cause everything there can kill you really easily so you can expect that from my run.
Break through the final confusion
Ah ok good, yeah I figured it was just my memory being hazy... that's good that you can take advantage of it too. If you get lucky, a single Throwing Knife ends up killing three of the four witches, so the damage isn't too bad.

Anyway, look what I managed to pull off:

Segment 25:


What is it with all of these 3 1/2 minute segments? Anyway, this was yet another segment that ended up being much tougher than I'd hoped. The reason was actually not just the extreme randomness of the enemies (which is a given, since this IS the Twins' Labyrinth after all), but a particular jump that ended up blocking me almost as much as the insane Tower of the Goddess ascent. That and pretty much EVERY room in the segment has some possibility of bad luck with the enemies. Thus, prepare yourself for another segment where Lemeza gets knocked around a lot... but luckily, I pulled off all of the skill-based sections extremely well AND I had random bursts of good luck here and there, so even with all the enemy hits it still went pretty close to optimal.

The grinding at this point is extremely straightforward.

We start off at Temple of the Moon, since it drops us off at the best place in the Twins' Labyrinth to do what we need to do, and also offers a great time to pick up the Map for this section. We're actually only here for 3 rooms, and as you can imagine, the second one is the real problem - there's 4 diases to visit, all the while having to dodge 3 bats. So it mostly boils down to key Axe placements and hoping you get lucky. This the first of three rooms in this run where getting hit is essentially guaranteed - I get hit early on and luckily it doesn't really waste too much time. Anyway, THIS attempt is actually really funny becuase, despite all my well-timed Axe hits, I somehow manage to make it through the room without killing ANY of the bats, which NEVER happens - I'm lucky I didn't get hit more than once!
The next room has two semi-tricky jumps, but really they're a piece of cake compared to what's coming...

Remember when I said the Death Seal jump on the last segment was the hardest jump in the run so far? Well, the jump in the first screen of the Twins' Labyrinth beats it by a long shot. Just try it! You basically have to jump RIGHT as you're done climbing the stairs, then maneuver yourself around that ledge while still trying to maximize your horizontal distance, and THEN timing the second jump to make it to the elevator JUST as it's leaving. Of course, there's a Siren RIGHT where you'll be making the jump, so I'm forced to use the Lamp of Time here, which is a shame becuase there's a few parts coming up where it would have been really useful. Yeah... I'm not sure just how frame perfect it is, but it definitely ate up a majority of the segments...
Ah yes, and after that doozy of a jump I get a bit of rest before having to quickly equip Castlevania + Mahjong Wizard. I'll use it on both minibosses coming up, where it's VERY important to kill them quickly before they start flying around and becoming very hard to hit.
Luckily the first miniboss is simple because the Lamp of Time is still in effect (and even if it wasn't, he's pretty easy to beat before he flies off). The only real hard part there is pulling off the double jump to land right next to him.
Unlocking the Katana goes well. I missed that first skeleton but luckily I got him on the way up, so no time lost. Then I get to do a cool dodge of the bone from that second skeleton. Finally, on the way down from the crumbling floor, I get to do a cool mid-air swerve around one of the ledges, which that bat can TOTALLY screw up if he chooses to go left. He behaves here, which is good.
The next room has a very precise jump-attack with the red witch. Messing up wastes quite a bit of time, so I'm happy that I got it here.
Ah, then comes the room with the 4 witches. I'm forced to wait 30 seconds in this room, but luckily, the witches are still allowed to knock me around, as long as I wait. So what I do is use a Throwing Knife as I enter the room, which hopefully kills most of the witches. THEN I just have to hope that by the time the 30 seconds are up, the witches haven't knocked me all the way to the left side of the room. In this attempt, they left me at EXACTLY the place I wanted, which means that there's already been a lot of luck-based events that have gone my way.

Back at the miniboss room, there's now 3 bats and a Siren, which makes this the second of three rooms where I'm guaranteed to get hit. This is especially true because the Siren has a VERY high chance of singing as soon as I enter, and there's unfortunately no way to avoid that other than just waiting around (which is why I would have loved having the Lamp here), so I always just choose to charge in and see what happens. Actually, here it didn't go too bad, since she knocked me to the RIGHT rather than left. I actually Maced twice to try to get rid of some of the enemies, but not only do I comically miss both times, but then they all fly away and leave me alone to make the jump I need to make. So, all in all it went pretty gosh darn well.
After the 2 Weights jar, I'm forced to equip the Axe becuase the red fetus in the next room is guaranteed to hit me otherwise if he chooses to jump to the right, and I don't have time to react and equip the Axe if he does (yet another reason I would have loved the Lamp here). Now, the bat was actually too close for comfort during my jump into that room, so I was SURE that I was going to miss the ledge that I need to jump from, ending the segment - that slight hesitation you see is actually me realizing that I somehow made the ledge and the segment wasn't over!
The NEXT room has two red fetuses, and given that I have to get the Coin jar and Circus Charlie (which features some cool switching to the Knife and then the Mace), makes this the third and last room where I'm guaranteed to get hit. It's kind of sad because, after I get Circus Charlie, I attempt to avoid my fate by trying a little jump to hit the fetus, but I end up missing. Lo and behold, as soon as I then jump to hit the lizard (which is a jump I have to make, obviously), the fetus ends up hitting me in a way that I can't avoid. Ah well, it didn't really waste much time and then I'm able to kill both of the fetusus right after that, so all in all, I'm pretty happy with how all the non-avoidable-hit rooms played out.
Alright, then comes the second miniboss, which was actually a total pain until I figured out that if you come from the left, he spawns RIGHT at the place where you can still get in 3 hits from the Mace. After that it's just a matter of hitting him 2 more times, which went as optimally as I could have hoped for. I'm very happy with that one.

Finally, it's time for Baphomet. Not much to say here - you have to hit him with two volleys of Bombs - the first one is easy but for the second one you have to dodge the shots from the witches to place the Bombs where you need them. Another thing to note is that the red witch on the lower-left can choose to be an asshole and shoot early to hit you - which OF COURSE had to happen here. But it's actually not too bad because (a) it doesn't really waste too much time (you have to land from that attack and position yourself for the double-jump anyway), and (b) it makes it so that the first shots from the witches are actually aimed lower than they should be, which makes position the second Bomb volley a LOT easier. So yeah, it all went according to plan here, giving me a pretty optimal Baphomet kill - I could have jumped a couple of frames earlier, but I lost more than one attempt to jumping too early, so given the insane luck I'd had up to this point, I played it on the safe side. And with that, only Tiamat is left!


Not sure when I'll be able to get to the next one, unfortunately (not much free time coming up it seems, AND that insane jump took a lot out of me...). At least it SOUNDS like it'll be an easier one, so hopefully when I finally have the time, it'll happen pretty quickly! (But then again, I wasn't expecting the last three to be as hard they were, so...)
Yep yep yep!
That segment was certainly pretty crazy, but at least you won't have to deal with Twin Labyrinths for a little while.  One problem: won't you need the moon temple entrance again when doing mantras?  I'm pretty sure it's the fastest way to reach the chanting room after reading the mantra.  Not really anything I can think of to say that you haven't already; Twin Labyrinths enemies are jerks.

As for the next segment, remember you're starting off with the Perfume, so I wish you good luck there.
Sandbagging
Man you're on fire this month haha.
Nice job on this segment.
The enemies really seem like a pain in the ass to manipulate.
Good luck with the next (hopefully easier) segment! Smiley
Metroidvanias are God Tier
Hmm looking at the damage you were taking in the which room I am definitely going to have to kill that green witch. Also I don't get throwing knives so maybe it would be best if I killed them all.
Break through the final confusion
@Anon: Yeah, it sucks that the one witch you can't kill with the Throwing Knife is the one that pounds you with the most damage. The easiest one to deal with is the white one since it only attacks with short-range lightning (I think). The red one just shoots straight ahead but is pretty quick. The yellow one shoots really slowly but is REALLY annoying since it freezes you. So yeah, you may have to mess with it a bit, especially since you don't get Throwing Knives so you might as well go for the green one at least.

@BlueGlass: Yeah, I actually went ahead and checked that out and I'll be using the entrance from the Inferno Cavern, since I need to get that map anyway and there's a few other MSX cartridges to pick on the way. Which is nice since making the jump without breaking the floor there is definitely possible but makes that a lot trickier. And yes, the Twin Labyrinth enemies are total jerks. Smiley Oh, and I would NOT have liked making that insane jump again...

@Exo: Haha, thanks! Yeah, once I got past that ridiculous bat boss (and I started getting free weekends), the run really got going again. Not sure if the next one is coming next weekend yet (probably not), but in any case the one I'm dreading next is the Tiamat segment coming up soon! That'll be a doozy...  we'll see how it goes!
Yep yep yep!
No, I knew you were using the Inferno Cavern entrance (checked your route).  I meant that to get from the room where you read the mantra tablet to the room where you chant the mantra, it's faster to go through three rooms of Moon Temple rather than three rooms of Twin Labyrinths.  Probably not worth the trouble of having to redo segment 25, given how much of a pain it was, but it is faster.
Break through the final confusion
Ahh, I see... hmm... I actually hadn't even accounted for that. At least according to my route...

I read the Mantra tablet, then head 2 screens to the right to get Konami Ping Pong + 10 Coins. Then just 2 more screens to the right and I'm at the place to chant.

It COULD actually be that it's faster to read the Mantra, then teleport to the Moon Temple, go right two screens and up the stairs, chant the Mantra, then go 2 screens to the left to pick up Konami Ping Pong... although there is a bit of time to account for an extra 10 Coins I'd have to get. Hmm... I'd have to test it. I'm actually not at all sure since it SEEMS like a shorter distance to walk directly from the tablet to the chant room but it's a very windy path...
Yep yep yep!
Oh, I forgot about Konami Ping Pong.  With that taken into account, going right from the tablet makes more sense.  In that case, I have no idea which one would be faster; probably not worth testing, since you'd have to redo the last segment to use the Moon Temple route in your run.
It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!
So I thought I'd pop in for something else I've noticed, after having to replay this same segment about 30+ times tonight alone, and getting into the pyramid at least 2/3rds of those times I noticed the bird at the top of the ladder almost always drops a weight for me. I got bored and experimented with the other critters on the surface and I found hitting most of them on a similar or close to similar frame will yield a weight drop. I think they're less random and more frame based?



Here's a vid of said screwing around, if anyone else wants to do the research for this I'd love to find out if it actually is based on that. It'd mean segmented runs could be even tighter, and possibly easier to pull off.
Yep yep yep!
The item drop RNG probably is frame-based, but you also have to take into account that those birds have a relatively high weight drop rate in the first place.  I'm not too sure how a segmented run could actually make use of this, as the number of weight drops needed to skip going out of the way for weights throughout the run would be stupidly high.  Even segmented, you can't get that lucky.  For a TAS, sure, but not a speedrun.
Break through the final confusion
Hmm, I had my hunches that it's frame-based - however, BlueGlass basically nailed it. Essentially, there's actually a bit of randomness with what any given enemy is going to do - the bird on top of the stairs is a perfect example. Sometimes he just sits with his head down until you hit him; sometimes he looks up and freezes; sometimes he starts walking just before getting hit; sometimes he starts flying before you can hit him. Etc. I'm guessing ONE of those positions has a specific frame where he's guaranteed to drop the weight (or possibly different frames on different positions, etc.). So you'd have to get lucky AND then play frame-perfectly. Doable, but I definitely agree with BlueGlass that it's more TAS based, since you can REALLY only hope for one of these per segment (and not all segments have a Weight-dropping enemy in the route), so it probably wouldn't be that big of savings in the long run. Plus, as I'm hoping to prove, getting most of the easy Weights jars along (with a bit of luck) isn't THAT sub-optimal since most of the jars are actually very close to the optimal route.
Ah, and for my segmented run specifically, I think anyone who's been following my progress so far knows that me and frame-perfect stuff don't really get along... Smiley

Anyway, I'm mostly popping in to let y'all know that real life has caught up with me the last few weekends, and will probably take up most of April as well... So, yeah, my next segment may be a while. I'm hopeful for May, though, and hopefully I can sneak the segment in next weekend if I'm lucky...

To ease the wait time, go watch Exo's Link's Awakening run if you haven't already (and watch it again if you have). I simply HAVE to plug it due to how amazing it is. Smiley