Kirby's Return to Dreamland Speedrunning

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2012-08-04 10:19:13 am

2012-08-04 10:18:34 am

Claimh Happy

I could have sworn they were called Lor powers. huh. but yeah, that's what I meant.

Also, I was in the same boat with NiDL. I wanted to do any%, but Metaknightmare took priority :S

Miles

2012-08-04 10:50:33 am

If you don't want a video embedded then just use [noembed][/noembed].

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-08-12 12:35:50 pm

2012-08-12 12:35:17 pm

<(^_^)>

I tried an impromptu any% abilityless run after not having touched the game for over a month lol. Here are my splits:

World 1: 12:02
World 2: 27:19
World 3: 47:46
World 4: 1:07:40
World 5: 1:28:44
World 6: 1:49:56
World 7: 2:07:41
End: 2:21:36

Note that this was abilityless; I still used items such as the invisibility crystal and the hand cannon.

Quality kinda sucked, haha. Tons of mistakes, I'm sure that sub 2:10 is possible. The run itself was very fun, just be prepared to slide a LOT. I don't think it'd be fun to watch though, unless it was extremely well-optimized. Also, everything was pretty manageable (NO DEATHS!!!)... except Magolor Soul. The final boss itself is reason enough that I don't want to touch this, merely because it was very obviously intended for you to fight it with an ability. There aren't many opportunities to fire things at him, and once you actually inhaled something, he's either teleporting around, or preparing more things to fire at you (which you can't shoot your current projectile at him or else it may get blocked by the next projectiles AND destroy them, missing two opportunities to damage him). The fight was very clutch, I was at a sliver of health left the entire 2nd phase X_X

One speed trick I noticed: If Kirby has something in his mouth, and is about to enter a door, just enter the door and he'll spit it out and enter the door at the same time. There's no need to manually spit it (which is slower). I don't think there's really a use for this in the any%/100% route but it's there.

I tried an impromptu any% abilityless run after not having touched the game for over a month lol. Here are my splits:

World 1: 12:02
World 2: 27:19
World 3: 47:46
World 4: 1:07:40
World 5: 1:28:44
World 6: 1:49:56
World 7: 2:07:41
End: 2:21:36

Note that this was abilityless; I still used items such as the invisibility crystal and the hand cannon.

Quality kinda sucked, haha. Tons of mistakes, I'm sure that sub 2:10 is possible. The run itself was very fun, just be prepared to slide a LOT. I don't think it'd be fun to watch though, unless it was extremely well-optimized. Also, everything was pretty manageable (NO DEATHS!!!)... except Magolor Soul. The final boss itself is reason enough that I don't want to touch this, merely because it was very obviously intended for you to fight it with an ability. There aren't many opportunities to fire things at him, and once you actually inhaled something, he's either teleporting around, or preparing more things to fire at you (which you can't shoot your current projectile at him or else it may get blocked by the next projectiles AND destroy them, missing two opportunities to damage him). The fight was very clutch, I was at a sliver of health left the entire 2nd phase X_X

One speed trick I noticed: If Kirby has something in his mouth, and is about to enter a door, just enter the door and he'll spit it out and enter the door at the same time. There's no need to manually spit it (which is slower). I don't think there's really a use for this in the any%/100% route but it's there.

doicm

2012-08-12 05:40:38 pm

Absolutely destroyed my time there, but then again I don't normally run this game. The fact that you could get two hits off the final boss with one shot was pretty neat, but I agree that the final boss is intended to have an ability for.

I agree also that while it was fun to do, it's not terribly exciting to watch (unless you're into that sort of thing).

Nicely done, kirbymastah! Smiley

kirbymastah

2012-08-12 06:35:11 pm

<(^_^)>

Yeah, I was honestly surprised that i was only about 20 minutes ahead of you, since it was only your second playthrough, period. After trying out abilityless myself, I must say that your time is REALLY good, considering it's your only second playthrough and even had two deaths Tongue

Magolor Soul used to be my favorite fight after Goriath... after trying it abilityless, I hate it now LOL, but I'm sure that'll change after I start running the game with abilities, or doing arena Tongue

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-08-19 10:19:54 am

2012-08-19 10:19:10 am

<(^_^)>

100% Route change

If level 6-2 wasn't hellish enough... There are four spaced-out crash enemies in the room after the water room (the same room where we would get mike instead). Get a mix, and grab wing. Mixing is pretty difficult since they're so spaced out; you want to jump into the second one from below so it gets knocked closer to the third and fourth, then super-inhale. Of course, we need spark for the next energy sphere; easily enough, just carry wing after eating Dubior, use spark when necessary, and eat wing again.

Ignoring the time it takes to mix the roulette with home menu abuse, getting wing here saves roughly 20 seconds over not using wing. I figure with some luck, it'd be worth mixing for wing (and make 6-3 a lot easier too). Of course, if it goes wrong, the runner can just fall back on the original mike -> spark -> parasol route until Flare Beam where the two routes converge.

The problem is, 6-2 has officially become the hardest level to 100% in a speedrun, including getting the first energy sphere with water without waiting on top of the pillar, squeezing through the spike balls without touching them to preserve stone, not missing the bomb blocks with lightning bolts for the third energy sphere, and having that mix for wing on top of everything. But yeah, an average successful mix for me tends to take around 5-7 seconds, so I'll be going for that from now on.

100% Route change

If level 6-2 wasn't hellish enough... There are four spaced-out crash enemies in the room after the water room (the same room where we would get mike instead). Get a mix, and grab wing. Mixing is pretty difficult since they're so spaced out; you want to jump into the second one from below so it gets knocked closer to the third and fourth, then super-inhale. Of course, we need spark for the next energy sphere; easily enough, just carry wing after eating Dubior, use spark when necessary, and eat wing again.

Ignoring the time it takes to mix the roulette with home menu abuse, getting wing here saves roughly 20 seconds over not using wing. I figure with some luck, it'd be worth mixing for wing (and make 6-3 a lot easier too). Of course, if it goes wrong, the runner can just fall back on the original mike -> spark -> parasol route until Flare Beam where the two routes converge.

The problem is, 6-2 has officially become the hardest level to 100% in a speedrun, including getting the first energy sphere with water without waiting on top of the pillar, squeezing through the spike balls without touching them to preserve stone, not missing the bomb blocks with lightning bolts for the third energy sphere, and having that mix for wing on top of everything. But yeah, an average successful mix for me tends to take around 5-7 seconds, so I'll be going for that from now on.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-08-19 11:21:37 am

Claimh Happy

I don't know about the other ones, but hitting the bomb blocks with lightning bolts should not be hard at all. Just find some way to time the first one and just mash the button from there. That's what i did when I went through normally, and I got it 7 times in a row (no, I don't remember why I felt the need to do it more than once)

kirbymastah

2012-08-19 11:30:14 am

<(^_^)>

Yeah I barely miss it, I guess I just get pretty scared about missing the lightning bolt since missing that block means end run (there's no way to kill yourself without going into the next room)

yoshifan

2012-08-19 11:30:51 am

If you miss the lightning on the bomb block, you can save it with a jumping Spark Wave (the strongest Spark attack, which goes through walls) after you're out of the elevator. Of course it costs several seconds if you have to do that, but at least you don't have to restart the stage if you miss the lightning.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-08-21 10:36:26 pm

2012-08-21 10:35:38 pm

<(^_^)>

New 100% Main Mode WR: 2:48:29. Before you ask, no, I don't have a video, and I wouldn't put it up anyways because it has quite a few mistakes.

Splits:
Cookie Country: 13:31
Raisin Ruins: 31:37
Onion Ocean: 55:19
White Wafers: 1:18:41
Nutty Noon: 1:41:29
Egg Engines: 2:05:29
Dangerous Dinner: 2:29:13 (split at "Got all level 7 energy spheres!)
Challenge Rooms: 2:39:14 (split as Kirby leaves the room in the Lor)
Finish: 2:48:30

I'd say sub-2:47 is very possible. I was very surprised to see that my splits were very close to yoshifan's (within 30 seconds the entire time) until world 5 and on where yoshifan's run had two deaths and a herpderp moment, so that's probably where a lot of the time saved came from.

My run also got wing at both mixes... The one at 6-2 and the end of 7-2. I was very pleasantly surprised.

I'm not sure what I'll do with this game; I'll be getting splitters soon, though I'll probably be focusing on any% first. But IMO a submittable 100% run would get wing on both mixes, and magolor + soul quick kills, and sub-2:47. Getting sub-2:47 will probably be really hard though. I honestly don't think sub-2:46 is possible...

New 100% Main Mode WR: 2:48:29. Before you ask, no, I don't have a video, and I wouldn't put it up anyways because it has quite a few mistakes.

Splits:
Cookie Country: 13:31
Raisin Ruins: 31:37
Onion Ocean: 55:19
White Wafers: 1:18:41
Nutty Noon: 1:41:29
Egg Engines: 2:05:29
Dangerous Dinner: 2:29:13 (split at "Got all level 7 energy spheres!)
Challenge Rooms: 2:39:14 (split as Kirby leaves the room in the Lor)
Finish: 2:48:30

I'd say sub-2:47 is very possible. I was very surprised to see that my splits were very close to yoshifan's (within 30 seconds the entire time) until world 5 and on where yoshifan's run had two deaths and a herpderp moment, so that's probably where a lot of the time saved came from.

My run also got wing at both mixes... The one at 6-2 and the end of 7-2. I was very pleasantly surprised.

I'm not sure what I'll do with this game; I'll be getting splitters soon, though I'll probably be focusing on any% first. But IMO a submittable 100% run would get wing on both mixes, and magolor + soul quick kills, and sub-2:47. Getting sub-2:47 will probably be really hard though. I honestly don't think sub-2:46 is possible...

yoshifan

2012-08-30 07:10:45 pm

Oh! I totally missed your post somehow. Great job on the 2:48!

I assume your run didn't have costly deaths or level restarts? Otherwise I'm sure you would've mentioned them. Tongue

That's quite a feat to get both the 6-2 and 7-2 mixes in the same run. Really good stuff.

In the long run, I'm pretty sure we can still shave several more minutes; our strategies are pretty good, but with more experimenting we'll continue to find optimizations that can really add up. Closing in on 2:45 could take a lot more practice and attention to detail, though.

kirbymastah

2012-08-30 10:27:32 pm

<(^_^)>

Yeah there weren't any deaths/restarts at all, but there were definitely quite a few big mistakes that added up <_<

Anyways, I've started up my own stream, though it'll take more time until I get my quality verified by the SDA pros here, and again, I'll be doing serious attempts on any% rather than 100% for now. I found a few new strats to shave off a few seconds, which every second counts in a game this "simple"

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-09-02 10:23:06 pm

2012-09-02 09:54:08 pm

<(^_^)>

http://www.twitch.tv/kirbymastah/b/330892767

Start at 27:41

So I got a time of 1:41:28 for any%, and my WR is 1:41:09. That sucks.

But I recommend watching the above and please tell me if there's anything improveable for the first three worlds. Everything in those went AMAZING, which the splits show, and all of my new strats really pay off. I just fell apart starting in world 6 and on, since I guess I just got nervous. Of course, feel free to watch the second half of the run as well and point out if there are any strategy improvements you can think of (but there are some mistakes)

Anyways, I got a quality test mostly approved by nate, and once I feel practiced enough, I'll start recording for real, and... going for the mix without home menu. As in, press 1 asap so I won't waste time waiting or using the home menu. It'll probably drive me nuts, having only 1/22 attempts get past the first level, but every second does count in a game like this, so it's something I have to do to get a solid time.

Oh yeah, I started streaming. /shamelessadvertisement

http://www.twitch.tv/kirbymastah/b/330892767

Start at 27:41

So I got a time of 1:41:28 for any%, and my WR is 1:41:09. That sucks.

But I recommend watching the above and [u]please tell me if there's anything improveable for the first three worlds[/u]. Everything in those went AMAZING, which the splits show, and all of my new strats really pay off. I just fell apart starting in world 6 and on, since I guess I just got nervous. Of course, feel free to watch the second half of the run as well and point out if there are any strategy improvements you can think of (but there are some mistakes)

Anyways, I got a quality test mostly approved by nate, and once I feel practiced enough, I'll start recording for real, and... going for the mix without home menu. As in, press 1 asap so I won't waste time waiting or using the home menu. It'll probably drive me nuts, having only 1/22 attempts get past the first level, but every second does count in a game like this, so it's something I have to do to get a solid time.

Oh yeah, I started streaming. /shamelessadvertisement

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2012-09-04 05:19:07 pm

yoshifan: 2012-09-04 05:18:04 pm

yoshifan: 2012-09-04 05:16:47 pm

2012-09-04 05:15:04 pm

Okay, I'll try to point out as many things as I can.

1-1
28:35 (room 1) - Instead of fluttering, you can just toss a cutter to get the extra height to get over the ledge here.

1-3
32:49 (room 4, shotzos) - I guess you meant to handle these final shotzos like in the 1:41:09.
33:04 (room 5, key chase) - Again, I assume you meant to do the part after the fire enemy like the 1:41:09.

1-4
33:36 (room 1) - You don't need to jump before starting the condor heads. That way you'll avoid ramming the Bronto Burt, as well. However, depending on how well you time the condor heads, you might have to do a combo dive to get up the ladder, which could negate some of the time saved.
34:11 (room 2, invincibility) - Combo dive to get up to the ledge would be good, but maybe you were already trying to do that.
34:54 - I guess your 1:41:09 got through the leaf enemies faster, but the 1:41:09 strat here looks really tricky, and losing your power can be really bad here. I think the combo dive you did in this run is for the best.

2-1
Room 1 - Personally, I find that the condor head spacing is easier to deal with if I combo dive (1) the Waddle Dee at 37:34, and (2) the Waddle Dees + Whip tiger at 37:43. However, more combo dives wastes more time, so it might be slower than what you were trying to do.

2-2
40:38 (room 3, water) - Did you mean to do this like your 1:41:09, where you jump from the first green platform and then keep doing condor heads? Or were you trying a different strat?

3-1
48:14 (room 1) - Try to combo dive before you reach these star blocks. That way you'll clear out the blocks with the shockwave, which means you won't incur the 3 frames of lag per block that you hit. (Yay, putting that testing to use. >_>)
Also dang... testing this room makes me remember how unforgiving World 3 can be.
49:01 (room 3, tornado enemies and lots of coconuts) - Combo dive the second Cappy like in the 1:41:09, then condor head, then delay the next combo dive for long enough to land on the ground instead of in water.
49:14 (room 4, switch operated platforms) - Maybe do a combo dive onto the second-highest step here, and then land on the highest step as you bounce up from the impact.

3-4
1:00:42 (room 5, blue cave descent) - I'm guessing that was meant to be 2 condor heads to the ladder, like in your 1:41:09 run.

Overall, your strategies for these worlds are looking really solid, and it's evident you put a lot of thought into them. Looking between this run and your 1:41:09, I couldn't find a lot to suggest, even getting down to the sub-second details. And you're definitely going all out with the risks, especially in World 3. Still really impressed by your consistency with the boss fights and tricks like the fast door entry (you even hit the windy door entry in 3-3 Smiley

).

I followed your stream. Hope I get to catch some practice and attempts!

Okay, I'll try to point out as many things as I can.

1-1
28:35 (room 1) - Instead of fluttering, you can just toss a cutter to get the extra height to get over the ledge here.

1-3
32:49 (room 4, shotzos) - I guess you meant to handle these final shotzos like in the 1:41:09.
33:04 (room 5, key chase) - Again, I assume you meant to do the part after the fire enemy like the 1:41:09.

1-4
33:36 (room 1) - You don't need to jump before starting the condor heads.  That way you'll avoid ramming the Bronto Burt, as well.  However, depending on how well you time the condor heads, you might have to do a combo dive to get up the ladder, which could negate some of the time saved.
34:11 (room 2, invincibility) - Combo dive to get up to the ledge would be good, but maybe you were already trying to do that.
34:54 - I guess your 1:41:09 got through the leaf enemies faster, but the 1:41:09 strat here looks really tricky, and losing your power can be really bad here.  I think the combo dive you did in this run is for the best.

2-1
Room 1 - Personally, I find that the condor head spacing is easier to deal with if I combo dive (1) the Waddle Dee at 37:34, and (2) the Waddle Dees + Whip tiger at 37:43.  However, more combo dives wastes more time, so it might be slower than what you were trying to do.

2-2
40:38 (room 3, water) - Did you mean to do this like your 1:41:09, where you jump from the first green platform and then keep doing condor heads?  Or were you trying a different strat?

3-1
48:14 (room 1) - Try to combo dive before you reach these star blocks.  That way you'll clear out the blocks with the shockwave, which means you won't incur the 3 frames of lag per block that you hit.  (Yay, putting that testing to use. >_>)
Also dang... testing this room makes me remember how unforgiving World 3 can be.
49:01 (room 3, tornado enemies and lots of coconuts) - Combo dive the second Cappy like in the 1:41:09, then condor head, then delay the next combo dive for long enough to land on the ground instead of in water.
49:14 (room 4, switch operated platforms) - Maybe do a combo dive onto the second-highest step here, and then land on the highest step as you bounce up from the impact.

3-4
1:00:42 (room 5, blue cave descent) - I'm guessing that was meant to be 2 condor heads to the ladder, like in your 1:41:09 run.

Overall, your strategies for these worlds are looking really solid, and it's evident you put a lot of thought into them.  Looking between this run and your 1:41:09, I couldn't find a lot to suggest, even getting down to the sub-second details.  And you're definitely going all out with the risks, especially in World 3.  Still really impressed by your consistency with the boss fights and tricks like the fast door entry (you even hit the windy door entry in 3-3 :) ).

I followed your stream.  Hope I get to catch some practice and attempts!

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-09-04 09:58:47 pm

2012-09-04 08:07:51 pm

<(^_^)>

1-1
28:35 (room 1) - Instead of fluttering, you can just toss a cutter to get the extra height to get over the ledge here.

I didn't know that, I have to try that out now!

1-3
32:49 (room 4, shotzos) - I guess you meant to handle these final shotzos like in the 1:41:09.
33:04 (room 5, key chase) - Again, I assume you meant to do the part after the fire enemy like the 1:41:09.

Yes and no. I'm mostly experimenting a bit around, though what I did in the 1:41:09 run is probably best.

1-4
33:36 (room 1) - You don't need to jump before starting the condor heads. That way you'll avoid ramming the Bronto Burt, as well. However, depending on how well you time the condor heads, you might have to do a combo dive to get up the ladder, which could negate some of the time saved.

I know you can make it without jumping, but for the sake of consistency I generally jump. I do jump pretty high, so it's probably best to do a small jump before spamming condor heads.

34:11 (room 2, invincibility) - Combo dive to get up to the ledge would be good, but maybe you were already trying to do that.

For some reason I didn't. I should do that.

34:54 - I guess your 1:41:09 got through the leaf enemies faster, but the 1:41:09 strat here looks really tricky, and losing your power can be really bad here. I think the combo dive you did in this run is for the best.

Yeah this is more of a consistency > speed issue (a very minor one). The spacing has to be practically pixel-perfect from my experience to do what I did in my older run, and I only get past that about half the time unscathed. I'll settle for this safer strat (which I can still mess up and get hit by the projectiles)

2-1
Room 1 - Personally, I find that the condor head spacing is easier to deal with if I combo dive (1) the Waddle Dee at 37:34, and (2) the Waddle Dees + Whip tiger at 37:43. However, more combo dives wastes more time, so it might be slower than what you were trying to do.

Oh man, this room took forever to plan out the condor heads. And then I mess up the spacing. But yeah, I can avoid using combo dives completely by just using a few condor heads a little late (the beginning of this room shows that).

2-2
40:38 (room 3, water) - Did you mean to do this like your 1:41:09, where you jump from the first green platform and then keep doing condor heads? Or were you trying a different strat?

Different Strat. I'm sure it's a tad faster if I execute it quickly; the only problem is accidentally hover flapping that yellow block, since I need to land on it. It's faster since I only have to set up a jump once instead of twice. I'm still practicing getting this better.

3-1
48:14 (room 1) - Try to combo dive before you reach these star blocks. That way you'll clear out the blocks with the shockwave, which means you won't incur the 3 frames of lag per block that you hit. (Yay, putting that testing to use. >_>)

Ah, good one, I'll figure out the spacing for that.

49:01 (room 3, tornado enemies and lots of coconuts) - Combo dive the second Cappy like in the 1:41:09, then condor head, then delay the next combo dive for long enough to land on the ground instead of in water.

got it

49:14 (room 4, switch operated platforms) - Maybe do a combo dive onto the second-highest step here, and then land on the highest step as you bounce up from the impact.

Hm yeah that may be good, though I don't know if it's faster to combo dive and land on that step, or just hover flap up (because combo dive does bounce once).

3-4
1:00:42 (room 5, blue cave descent) - I'm guessing that was meant to be 2 condor heads to the ladder, like in your 1:41:09 run.

Yep, I thought the ladder was coming up a lot earlier for some reason.

And you're definitely going all out with the risks, especially in World 3. Still really impressed by your consistency with the boss fights and tricks like the fast door entry (you even hit the windy door entry in 3-3 ).

Thanks! Yeah, world 3 is still the scariest, as you can tell by all the risks I take in levels 3-3 and 3-4. In 3-3, when the downward current path splits into three, I figured out that you change paths 5 times each for the two choices that lead to a food or an energy sphere; the one that leads to a gordo only changes 4 times so it's faster to go towards the gordo.

Getting the door entry in 3-3 isn't too bad actually; I get it very consistently and use the red star as a visual cue (I combo dive at the red star), and it's never failed me before. The worst part of 3-3 nowadays is the monster-flame section. The last set of statues (the one with the two giant statues) you can actually condor head through the first one, and if your timing is perfect, you can avoid touching the smaller one below you and then condor head through the second giant statue. It's ridiculously hard though, requires the previous part of the room to not waste any time, to have practically a pixel-perfect height jump along with a very well-timed second condor head, and is just way too risky, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I still can't figure out a way to finish 3-3 moundo consistently before he spins; I thought I got it before, but it's so frame perfect that it basically comes down to luck. If you dive bomb him too slowly, you'll be exactly one shockwave away from finishing him. IF you dive bomb him too quickly, then he'll spin earlier. As a result, I'm just not going to bother.

More shameless advertisement: I'll be going for sub-1:41 attempts tomorrow wednesday afternoon EST, hopefully I'll get a full run...

[i]1-1
28:35 (room 1) - Instead of fluttering, you can just toss a cutter to get the extra height to get over the ledge here.[/i]

I didn't know that, I have to try that out now!

[i]1-3
32:49 (room 4, shotzos) - I guess you meant to handle these final shotzos like in the 1:41:09.
33:04 (room 5, key chase) - Again, I assume you meant to do the part after the fire enemy like the 1:41:09.[/i]

Yes and no. I'm mostly experimenting a bit around, though what I did in the 1:41:09 run is probably best.

[i]1-4
33:36 (room 1) - You don't need to jump before starting the condor heads.  That way you'll avoid ramming the Bronto Burt, as well.  However, depending on how well you time the condor heads, you might have to do a combo dive to get up the ladder, which could negate some of the time saved.[/i]

I know you can make it without jumping, but for the sake of consistency I generally jump. I do jump pretty high, so it's probably best to do a small jump before spamming condor heads.

[i]34:11 (room 2, invincibility) - Combo dive to get up to the ledge would be good, but maybe you were already trying to do that.[/i]

For some reason I didn't. I should do that.

[i]34:54 - I guess your 1:41:09 got through the leaf enemies faster, but the 1:41:09 strat here looks really tricky, and losing your power can be really bad here.  I think the combo dive you did in this run is for the best.[/i]

Yeah this is more of a consistency > speed issue (a very minor one). The spacing has to be practically pixel-perfect from my experience to do what I did in my older run, and I only get past that about half the time unscathed. I'll settle for this safer strat (which I can still mess up and get hit by the projectiles)

[i]2-1
Room 1 - Personally, I find that the condor head spacing is easier to deal with if I combo dive (1) the Waddle Dee at 37:34, and (2) the Waddle Dees + Whip tiger at 37:43.  However, more combo dives wastes more time, so it might be slower than what you were trying to do.[/i]

Oh man, this room took forever to plan out the condor heads. And then I mess up the spacing. But yeah, I can avoid using combo dives completely by just using a few condor heads a little late (the beginning of this room shows that).

[i]2-2
40:38 (room 3, water) - Did you mean to do this like your 1:41:09, where you jump from the first green platform and then keep doing condor heads?  Or were you trying a different strat?[/i]

Different Strat. I'm sure it's a tad faster if I execute it quickly; the only problem is accidentally hover flapping that yellow block, since I need to land on it. It's faster since I only have to set up a jump once instead of twice. I'm still practicing getting this better.

[i]3-1
48:14 (room 1) - Try to combo dive before you reach these star blocks.  That way you'll clear out the blocks with the shockwave, which means you won't incur the 3 frames of lag per block that you hit.  (Yay, putting that testing to use. >_>)[/i]

Ah, good one, I'll figure out the spacing for that.

[i]49:01 (room 3, tornado enemies and lots of coconuts) - Combo dive the second Cappy like in the 1:41:09, then condor head, then delay the next combo dive for long enough to land on the ground instead of in water.[/i]

got it

[i]49:14 (room 4, switch operated platforms) - Maybe do a combo dive onto the second-highest step here, and then land on the highest step as you bounce up from the impact.[/i]

Hm yeah that may be good, though I don't know if it's faster to combo dive and land on that step, or just hover flap up (because combo dive does bounce once).

[i]3-4
1:00:42 (room 5, blue cave descent) - I'm guessing that was meant to be 2 condor heads to the ladder, like in your 1:41:09 run.[/i]

Yep, I thought the ladder was coming up a lot earlier for some reason.

[i]And you're definitely going all out with the risks, especially in World 3.  Still really impressed by your consistency with the boss fights and tricks like the fast door entry (you even hit the windy door entry in 3-3 :) ).[/i]

Thanks! Yeah, world 3 is still the scariest, as you can tell by all the risks I take in levels 3-3 and 3-4. In 3-3, when the downward current path splits into three, I figured out that you change paths 5 times each for the two choices that lead to a food or an energy sphere; the one that leads to a gordo only changes 4 times so it's faster to go towards the gordo.

Getting the door entry in 3-3 isn't too bad actually; I get it very consistently and use the red star as a visual cue (I combo dive at the red star), and it's never failed me before. The worst part of 3-3 nowadays is the monster-flame section. The last set of statues (the one with the two giant statues) you can actually condor head through the first one, and if your timing is perfect, you can avoid touching the smaller one below you and then condor head through the second giant statue. It's ridiculously hard though, requires the previous part of the room to not waste any time, to have practically a pixel-perfect height jump along with a very well-timed second condor head, and is just way too risky, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I still can't figure out a way to finish 3-3 moundo consistently before he spins; I thought I got it before, but it's so frame perfect that it basically comes down to luck. If you dive bomb him too slowly, you'll be exactly one shockwave away from finishing him. IF you dive bomb him too quickly, then he'll spin earlier. As a result, I'm just not going to bother.

More shameless advertisement: I'll be going for sub-1:41 attempts tomorrow wednesday afternoon EST, hopefully I'll get a full run...

yoshifan

2012-09-12 07:50:42 pm

Here are a few any% strategies that may or may not help:

4-1

5-4, room 1

7-1, room 4

kirbymastah

2012-09-13 02:37:55 pm

<(^_^)>

(goes to practice them)

The 5-4 one is pretty tough, to get that perfect combo dive and land on the stake. My current start is to do some condor heads, which gives perfect spacing for Kirby to land perfectly on the second stake, then reset my height and keep going.

That 7-1 room 4 strat really helped solidify my 7-1 performance as well. I think I'm starting to be much more comfortable with the last room (Snow Bowl) room as well, and the damage-invincibility trick to condor head off of lava.

Finally, for your 4-1 strat, the room with the poppy bros jrs and the boars, when you jump on the ledge around 35 seconds in, I decided to squeeze in a slide attack right before since the distance is perfect for it. It makes it a little harder, but I can get it consistent.

Thanks a lot for uploading these!

kirbymastah

2012-09-13 10:17:13 pm

<(^_^)>

oh yeah, the aforementioned "double hit" on the lor fight is here:

http://www.twitch.tv/kirbymastah/b/331877107

It happens exactly at 1:28:00; I recommend watching from 1:27:50ish. It seems that you can get hit on the frame you attack (or a few after), and that hit cancels the rest of the animation, allowing you to attack again really quickly. I still don't quite know how it works though... that's all I can really say from watching it again.

kirbymastah

2012-09-16 07:15:36 pm

<(^_^)>

So i had a strong run going until 4-4, and I lost wing.. again... in the snow bowl section. Yoshifan, got any strats for that room? I can't think of a very clean way to get through while minimizing the amount of walking/flying... and it's very risky to do too many condor heads. One stretch of land seems to have the exact same distance as 3 condor heads, yet if you're even a bit too ahead, you'll slam into a bowling pin and GG.

Man, this sub-1:41 should not be so hard <_<

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2012-09-18 02:30:21 am

yoshifan: 2012-09-18 02:28:46 am

yoshifan: 2012-09-17 12:13:14 am

2012-09-17 12:12:21 am

I can experiment with the 4-4 snow bowl area sometime tomorrow. Let me know if there's other rooms you're having trouble with, as well, and I'll also try those out while I'm at it.

Also, cool, good to have a recording of that Lor double hit. That sure looks odd.

EDIT: I recorded a possible strat for the 4-4 snow bowl room. It's late now, so I'll upload it tomorrow.

I think I minimized walking and flying fairly well. I had to turn left briefly to control my distance in 3 places, though, so I'm not sure if all the ideas in my strat are worth it. Another thing worth mentioning: in a few places, I diagonal dive onto a pin. Doing such a diagonal dive out of a condor head can be very risky though, because if you dive a bit too early, you'll land next to the left side of the pin and lose your Wing. I find that it's a lot easier and safer to time the diagonal dive if I execute it with a running jump followed by down+1.

yoshifan

2012-09-18 02:34:44 pm

4-4 snow bowl room

Ecko65

2012-09-20 12:22:06 pm

DK + Mario Kart 8 = <3

hey guys i have a question

it is possible in a any% speedrun in the snow ball sections to take control over a second kirby, give him the wing ability and the first player can
take the snow ball to the end of the level then take the wing ability back from the second kirby and and switch the second kirby out?

is it a different category?

maybe in 3-1 it save not so much time but in 4-4 or 7-1 certainly

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-09-20 06:23:14 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-09-20 05:35:31 pm

2012-09-20 05:34:51 pm

<(^_^)>

Getting snow bowl is arguably slower than wing, just because of the long animation of eating the enemy, then the incredibly long animation of the first snowbowl. It'd probably save time in 3-1 because it's such a huge stretch of land, and 4-4 because that room sucks to do with wing.

In 7-1, it's close. I tested a single-player route where I ditch wing for snow bowl, then mix for wing at the very start of 7-2. Even with a perfect mix, it's barely slower to get snow bowl for 7-1.

With co-op, it'd be a different category, even if one person was grabbing two controllers. A co-op any% speedrun would be 80% the same as solo (ideally you use only 2 players; any more is unnecessary and only hurts). The first player with wing moves so quickly that what the second player does doesn't matter at all. The only reason to do co-op in any% is:

1. Key areas. A second player can pick up the key while pink wing kirby flies ahead, so player 2 will warp to player 1 with the key. In solo, Kirby is forced to carry the key slowly.
2. Bosses. Even with damage scaling, MK shuttle loops out-DPSs solo wing's dive bombs, but barely. It'd only be viable against vertically high bosses (aka whispy, mr. dooter, maybe magolor/grand doomer).
3. As you mentioned, snow bowl sections.

I honestly think doing any% in co-op is a bit of a waste of time, since it's barely any faster than solo; I doubt it even saves a minute. 100% co-op, though, would be very viable IMO and be considerably faster than 100% solo.

I actually want to plan a route for 100% co-op, though I don't reall have anyone to co-op with... so I guess for any 2 players who want to try it out.

Getting snow bowl is arguably slower than wing, just because of the long animation of eating the enemy, then the incredibly long animation of the first snowbowl. It'd probably save time in 3-1 because it's such a huge stretch of land, and 4-4 because that room sucks to do with wing.

In 7-1, it's close. I tested a single-player route where I ditch wing for snow bowl, then mix for wing at the very start of 7-2. Even with a perfect mix, it's barely slower to get snow bowl for 7-1.

With co-op, it'd be a different category, even if one person was grabbing two controllers. A co-op any% speedrun would be 80% the same as solo (ideally you use only 2 players; any more is unnecessary and only hurts). The first player with wing moves so quickly that what the second player does doesn't matter at all. The only reason to do co-op in any% is:

1. Key areas. A second player can pick up the key while pink wing kirby flies ahead, so player 2 will warp to player 1 with the key. In solo, Kirby is forced to carry the key slowly.
2. Bosses. Even with damage scaling, MK shuttle loops out-DPSs solo wing's dive bombs, but barely. It'd only be viable against vertically high bosses (aka whispy, mr. dooter, maybe magolor/grand doomer).
3. As you mentioned, snow bowl sections.

I honestly think doing any% in co-op is a bit of a waste of time, since it's barely any faster than solo; I doubt it even saves a minute. 100% co-op, though, would be very viable IMO and be considerably faster than 100% solo.

I actually want to plan a route for 100% co-op, though I don't reall have anyone to co-op with... so I guess for any 2 players who want to try it out.

yoshifan

2012-09-20 07:52:40 pm

I definitely agree that co-op would be a separate category (even if it's using two Wiimotes by yourself).

Also, there was some discussion on running co-op here: http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/kirbys_return_to_dream_land_wii_coop.html
I made it a separate thread at the time because there was discussion for both 1P and co-op going on, and I thought it'd be confusing to have both in the same thread. I'm not so sure if that applies now, since neither topic is very active at the moment, so feel free to discuss co-op in whichever thread you want (this one or the other one).

kirbymastah

2012-09-20 08:51:58 pm

<(^_^)>

oh wow, looking back at that thread, I really sucked at the game (compared to now), and we really didn't know any better XD Now that I'm reading the first page of this thread right here, it's funny that people thought water would be good for any%, and nobody considered Wing for a while. We've come a long way Tongue